Kenny, just the sort of ignorant abuse I would have expected from a ning nong like you. You haven't attempted to tell us how the Universe could have been formed by itself without a Creator, when even a working model can't build itself.

You guys. It amazes me that 'how the universe was formed' is still a point of discussion in 2005. The simple fact is, we don't know. In universe terms, we are pretty young, whosever measure you choose. And all the indications are that humans won't be around for much longer, whether you listen to the scientists, your neighbourhood doomsday cult or Aum Shinrikyo. We are the tiniest of specks, in any dimension you choose.

What I find it hard to comprehend is that some folk actually believe they do know - and this is again without making any judgement on the route they take to arrive at their solution. The concept that one-and-a-bit kilos of brain cells can understand our universe, and the hundred-plus billion galaxies in it, is simply not tenable.

We can guess. We can estimate. We can postulate, reason, argue, discuss, debate, dispute, wrangle, bandy words (thanks Mr Roget), but we sure as eggs cannot know.

We can also believe, but that is still not the same as knowing.

Pericles.
yes.. I think most of us who 'believe' would not say that we 'know' in the scientfic sense.. our brains can only go as far as the available science can take us. Your point could be seen as support for 'how Great is God' or 'how puny are we'.

I guess that's why its easier to accept

In the beginning, God created...

Its amazing how clear Genesis becomes when u are living in the 15th chapter of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. (naturally understandable psychological outcome, I realize this)

Bear in mind, we know most of what we now know based on the knowledge of the past 100 yrs.
While we are curious about things, u said it all when u described how immense is the measurable universe, not to mention the unmeasurable or unknown, and that 'we' might be the special focal point defies the imgination, true.

Well yes, and no, Boaz.

Much of what we see around us is "explained" through rules established and observations made over many years by scientists. But I don't believe the latest-and-best theory of the Big Bang any more than I accept the six-day manufacturing cycle proposed in the Bible. The dimensions are too many - in one, you have to envisage time coming into being at the same time as matter; in the other, you have to imagine a superior being masterminding it all. I know it sounds strange to you, but I still favour the former over the latter, but with the sure and certain knowledge that no-one will be able to prove or disprove either during my lifetime.

To me it is a cop-out to blithely say, as Big Al did "[h]ow can any intelligent person find it easier to believe that this Planet formed itself ... It's easier to believe that an Infinite IIntellect [sic], a Creator, made the World." Or in your words, "I guess that's why its easier to accept In the beginning, God created..."

Well of course it is easier. It is far easier to picture a benevolent old guy with a long white beard zapping Adam into life than to stretch the mind around the complexities of evolution. Far more difficult to grapple with the thought that we might just be a statistical blip on the right-hand extreme of a bell curve.

But it is nothing to do with "how puny we are". On the contrary, I think that there is something extremely special about how we have evolved into sentient, and thinking beings. But I am actually quite comfortable with the real possibility that the human race is no more than a cosmic chemical anomaly. I wouldn't dream of spending my life worrying about it though

PERICLES....
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

"BANG".......

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Doesn't seem to be too radically different from the scientific view.
"Formless" ... after a big bang, cosmic dust is circling, but not yet formed into planets ?

I won't go further :) You can read more on 'young earth/old earth' Genesis/big bang etc from a host of better informed (and some less I speculate) sources than me.

I appreciated your more relaxed tone of that last posting. As you say, life is about being curious and discovering things.

Sorry I didn't tick the email box.

Well it is obvious that none actually understand the current state of cosmology or how the theory has been developed or even for that matter the issues with it. I won't bother to much because few people every read the links given. For those who are interested there are lots of books around. As for something created out of nothing well guess what at the quantum level it is happening all the time. While individual scientist will “believe” in their work the scientific movement is quite dispassionate with no theory not backed by evidence surviving long. The thing that get most people is if they don’t understand it then it must be wrong. Most people are unwilling to say they can’t understand something because they are too stupid but the bell curve of human intelligence shows us that many will not get it. The current theory’s for the creation of the universe have one thing in common they must stand up to the testable evidence and stand on their scientism merits. They actually don’t have to be logical in the everyday sense and that what gets most people. Fact is much of this area is very counter intuitive. Relativity is a prefect example and so is quantum mechanics both are quite difficult concepts to grasp. This debate really boils down to groups that believe in things they can’t test for and those that only believe in things they can test for. Boaz_David I know full well that there are many Christians who subscribe to many positions on this matter. In a area like this it makes more sense to discuss the classic fundamentalist rather then the old Earther's and other positions.

The scientism method is mans greatest tool for unlocking knowledge not holy books.
I can’t help notice Al you didn’t try to answer the question.

BOAZ_David just about every creation myth can be read into a big bang context if you try hard enough.