TIM HAS GOT RELIGION...====> I quote "Invest in God"....... ???
oh... hang on.. "gold" :) sorry Tim, I was really hoping there.

Pericles !!!! You ARE still around. Good. Now.. I have to deliberately disagree with you or Grace will be on me like the proverbial pitbull... because when I agree, it means I'm 'softening you up' for a smuggled in bible verse.... :)

Ok.. very serious now. You have grasped the big picture with amazing accuracy. I would have made pretty much the same comments on it all.
So where does that leave me now ????? Lost for words.
No, that CAN'T be possible.... Ok..here it is. You have aptly described the ebb and flow of human history, and suggested no real alternative, which is fine due to your presuppositions, in fact its COMMENDABLE because there IS no altenative apart from .. 'uknowho' which leads me to one extra comment I'd make on the American scene.

Most empires DO get drunk with power and committ national hari kiri because of their blaze` over-indulgence in 'the flesh'. But now we are seeing an emergence of the evangelicals who are calling them to their foundations. Its a mixed picture, not all are calling in quite the same theological direction, but they are all calling the nation away from decadence. It was the opposite during the closing stages of the Roman and Byzantine era. The other factor in the decline of Empires is of course a world war which bankrupts them, and rising nationalism. External pressures and internal dissent.

Boaz

>>But now we are seeing an emergence of the evangelicals who are calling them to their foundations. Its a mixed picture, not all are calling in quite the same theological direction, but they are all calling the nation away from decadence.<<

Are you saying that the "religious right" - which is, I believe, what most would understand as "evangelicals" - opposes, rather than supports, the US worldview? That they are a force of protest and resistance when their government stomps blindly on the aspirations of people who happen not to be American?

I would have thought that they have shown themselves to be part of the problem, not of the solution.

PERICLES
What I'm saying, is that the religious/evangelical movement comprises a spectrum in itself, from 'ultra' fundamentalists to the more liberal mob. That there would be those who confuse 'biblical Christianity' with 'American identity/culture and manifest destiny' is unavoidable. Then, there would be (are) those like Tony Campolo, who would be more likely to heap scorn on the 'america is right because of might' idea. In general, I observe that the overall momentum is one of support for the spreading of 'freedom' US style.
The goal is noble, the reality may be marred by the involvement of the lurking black hand of the multi-nationals and the Jewish lobby in the political process.

Umm which people are having their aspirations stomped on ? Iraq ? come now. If u do mean that, u should be saying the "Aspirations of the Sunni minority who are fearful of losing their previously entrenched privileges"

P, why are u speaking about 'solution/problem' now ? I would have thought that based on your last very insightful post about how empires ebb and flow, that you would not see such a thing in those terms.

Boaz, you ask >>why are u speaking about 'solution/problem' now ?<<

You are right, this was a careless simplification on my part. We are discussing a book-length issue, and contribute only sound-bites.

This was shorthand for a chapter entitled "As a society diminishes in moral leadership, what internal forces are in play." Intellectual corruption starts with the belief that "our way is the only way", and in this the US mirrors uncannily the late-Victorian attitudes of the British. This "problem" permeates society, and is self-perpetuating. Although the "solution" - humility mixed with a willingness to adjust ones aspiratiions in the face of inevitable decline - doesn't change the outcome, it would prevent enormous pain along the way. My concern here is that by flailing around in denial of their inevitable marginalization as we progress through this century, the US will cause severe damage to others. Or perhaps that should be, continue to cause severe damage.

It was in this context that I made the comment that the "evangelicals" appear to be exacerbating the issue. In their armoury are some powerful messages on the importance of humility, and the essential duty to love ones fellow man. They appear instead to be concentrating on the strictures that apply to "our religion, or no religion".

As for "whose aspirations", the force of this is "anybody else's", rather than pick one particular faction in one particular country at one particular time. After all, as we saw with their adventure in Afghanistan, and the cavalier way they have picked sides between Iran and Iraq over the years, the only notable characteristic in which they are consistent is their expediency.

This is all observed, by the way, more in sadness than in anger. I have lived and worked in the US in the past, and I know them to be at heart a warm and generous people.

Pericles
"Amen" to pretty much all of that.

What kind of work did u do in the States ?

Pericles Americans are generally a warm caring people.

And those who show the most compassion tend to be the evangelicals in the so called red states where GWB has large support base.

Check out http://www.catalogueforphilanthropy.org/cfp/db/generosity.php?year=2004

It shows the top ten most generous states are all red while nine out of the bottom ten are blue.