Sayaret and Numbat.. good call.

The only thing wrong with the idea of 'patient application of human rights and due process' when it comes to suspected terrorists, is that these days, if u don't get vital information in time, it may be the last breath u ever take. (notes the mushroom cloud rising over New York).

The thing I find difficult to understand (and to justify) is the degree of physical ill-treatment dished out to these guys. I dont think its needed in order to get the truth out of them, I've seen some doco's on how brain wave analysis can be used to determine if someone is lying. Also, simple sound wave stimulus of the brain in certain areas can give a person the impression of a particular experience. If u find valuable info, they are unhurt as a result.

Matt..... you need to take more of a middle ground approach. As someone said "Most people come here to have their pre-existing opinions validated" rather than be changed. You should know its neither the one or the other.

Matt....
u haven't said anything about my response to Paine.
any reason ?

sorry Boaz, doijg this whilst working, will be on to it soon enough though, you're one of the more interesting conservatives on this forum...

David,

I'm quite busy here so my response wont be as in depth as id like it to be - sorry 'bout that:

You were very quick to write off the chiapas, give them time...

Sure paine was a Deist, i'm afraid atheists weren't very numerous back in the 1700's, reasons include persecution, lack of secular education and the fact it was bad for business. The issue that he was in the minority view: sometimes it is the minority that has to convince the majority about what is right, i'm still not buying your might is right point of view (even though in the big scheme of things this is the case for a while, but eventually might loses out to reason and realism see womens suffarage, racial rights, peace activists against vietnam, fall of georgian pres. etc)

I was a Catholic until i woke up to what i believe to be the truth (reason, science etc.) so iam aware of the writings of the new testament and the effects they have had on social policy (especially the effect it had on my fave philosopher TH Green), although i find many parts of the book hypocritical...but thats for a debate that is too different from the topic of this thread, although i think we are really stretching it anyway :-)

iam afraid that i'm going to have to leave this intersting debate though, i'm finishing up work and then moving to canberra were i wont have 'net access for quite some time and this debate will have died off by then, so it has been interesting, we will in the main scheme of things have to agree to disagree, but it has been fun...

so i bid you adieu

MATTTT...
I might be able to squeeze one more in b4 u go :) (I can't resist this one)
"womens suffrage" and 'might it right'


http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/suffragettes.htm

"It is possible that the Suffragettes would have become more violent. They had, after all, in February 1913 blown up part of David Lloyd George's house - he was probably Britain's most famous politician at this time and he was thought to be a supporter of the right for women to have the vote"

Take care and enjoy your new surroundings. I'm sure our paths will cross again (better paths than swords eh :))......