Grace,
Do you have any supportive evidence for this.

A now elderly woman who has been regarded as one of the founding members of the feminist movement is Dorris Lessing. But after this interview, in which she described the present feminist movement, I guess she would no longer be very welcome in that movement.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s390537.htm

Boaz, yes I saw your apology, thanks.

Feminists are ordinary, level-headed women, and they are all around you going about their daily business. If you believe that women should have the right to vote (which many did not believe a century ago), that women should have the right to equal pay for equal work (which many did not believe forty years ago), and that women have the right to be elected to parliament and have a say on how this country is run (which still seems to upset some men on both sides of the political divide), then you are well on the way to being a feminist yourself Boaz.

As you know, there are also extreme feminists, just as there are extreme religious fanatics, but they all have the right to argue their position without fear of persecution. That's democracy.

Democracy flourishes where women have equal rights. But women have had to fight through the democratic process for these rights, combatively if you like, they were not just handed over. If you don't like this democratic challenge then look at the alternatives. Fundamentalist islamic societies enslave and brutalise women because they believe that women are sub-human and not entitled to the same political rights as men. I am sure this is not what you want.

"Council of elders"? No thanks, that's undemocratic and belongs in early peasant societies and present day religious cults. We need the elderly, the middle aged and the young in our representative democracy, and a lot more women.

Timithy, I can only quote Audrey in another forum: "Furthermore, I refuse to respond to any of your 'demands' until you start reading the rejoinders that people present to you. What are you anyway, the dictator of a small country or something?"

"Good on ya Grace" ...
there are lots of issues to explore. I will say one thing though, while I agree its fine for women to vote and have equal pay for equal work. A culture where those things are not in place, can be quite balanced and workable, and even "just" and it would not mean that women are devalued or maginalized. The main principle that we should all be working toward is that we give and receive love. U can have all the voting power and pay in the world, but without love, its rather meaningless.

As per the biblical claim "Love covers a multitude of sins" it also overcomes a lot of perceived cultural injustices. I would feel a lot happier about reasonable cultural change on the feminist side, if it had not been achieved through terrorism. (read up on the suffragettes).

I also maintain, that had the male chunk of the population actually lived up to their part/role in the social contract, (in the biblical sense) such extremes would not have been needed or seen to be needed.

A close examination of who drove a lot of the feminazi agenda would be most beneficial. Particularly what they read, and the opinion leaders they looked up to. I had no real problem with the main thrust of of the suffagettes, until I read about the attempts to blow up the English parliment. (or threats promises to)

Now..I KNOW ur going to call me a 'muddle headed PATRIACH' eh :)
aah well.. its all good..and food for thought. How could we define ourselves unless we had someone elses view to villify :)

BOAZ

Grace,
So far as feminism is concerned, it is NON-DEMOCRATIC. It is BIASED TOWARDS ONE GENDER, and because of this it will never succeed for too long within a society that is democratic (or at least should aim to be)

Just because someone calls themselves a feminist is NOT a qualification to be automatically elected into government. Quite the opposite in fact, if you begin to analyses the history and agendas of the primary feminists throughout the world.

As Dorris Lessing said (who has been involved with many feminist groups in the past) “What a lot of bitches have been created by the women's movement. It really is frightening.”

Now I could say that capitalism is good, because it has brought some people a better standard of life. A lot of capitalism is bad also, and has brought untold misery to millions. Similar with feminism, some good for some women, but it has made “dependency divas” out of millions of other women.

As long as the propaganda machines keep pouring out their rhetoric of how "wonderful feminism always is", while turning a blind eye to how "harmful it often is", then there will be less and less people who will take feminism seriously.

Many feminists are supportive of IVF, although there are many problems involving IVF. As a test, in another forum there are now many women (who seem to identify themselves as being feminist) who have been invited to provide just one possible solution to just one problem involving IVF. None have been given so far, and yet we are supposed to take feminism seriously, and vote for feminists or the far left……I don’t think so.

The best thing Beazley could do to create a better opposition is to remove the far left from the Labor party, as it is just dead wood and it is stopping many people from voting for the Labor party.

I HEREBY rename Grace ==> "Chiwawa" and Timkins "PitBull" :)

Tim.. go easy on Grace there is a warm heart under that vociferous typed exterior.

Your point is made. Good to have difference.