If Israel is to survive in its hostile environment, it has an urgent need to dance to a faster and livelier tune than the plonker beat of Democracy.

Gaze at the mess our own Country has inherited from following that same path, where the only winners are gathered around the trough at the top.

There is an end point to the fallacy of inclusion through the fake Democratic process, Israel has reached it!

The simple fact is that a country cannot be a democracy unless it has a great degree of separation of religion and state. Israel does not have that separation. Australia does not have enough. Australia should get chaplains out of state schools. Israel should stop funding clergy except for chaplains in the armed forces and in prisons where people may not be able to get to clergy. Israel and Australia cannot be true democracies until they are countries for all of their citizens.

Agree!
Alan B.

Dear Dan,

«There is an end point to the fallacy of inclusion through the fake Democratic process»

The question being whether or not you want your views and wishes respected, or at least taken into account. In other words whether the state exists for its people or the people exist for their state.

It seems we differ on this point, please correct me if I am wrong.

---

Dear David F.,

A country cannot be a democracy unless it provides free condoms for everyone.

We all have our likes and dislikes and we naturally like the state to follow them, but that does has little to do with democracy.

You very much want separation of religion and state (and BTW so do I), while another wants free condoms.

Yuyutsu

My God (whoopsie to David f on that one), how do you come up with your innovative ideas.

I’d be overjoyed to see all streets in Australia lined with Vatican flags, and the outlawing of rainbow flags, at penalty of death for flying one against the law!

Your idea of free condoms is excellent too, at every flag pole flying the Vatican flag, a condom filled with holy water is a superb idea.
I’m not sure how the Islamists would respond though!

I support the separating of state and religion (second point); ending the occupation (third point); and establishing a constitution (fourth point) - just not in the name of democracy, because they are unrelated.

While the "judicial reforms" (first point) is at the heart of democracy, I would like to now concentrate on the author's fifth point: "Reforming Israel's electoral system":

This electoral threshold, currently 3.25%, where a party that falls under that percentage is completely excluded, is a very anti-democratic implement, even more so where the electoral system has no Australian-like preferences, so the people who vote for these parties are not represented at all. When Israel was created, that used to be just 1%, but it crept up over the years and now the author wants to raise it even further to 7-8%.

The Knesset is supposed to represent the population of Israel.
If the Knesset is messy, polarized and dysfunctional, that is because it represents a messy, polarized and dysfunctional population (which probably should not have lived together to begin with).
"Fixing" the Knesset is to gloss over the reality, undemocratically preferring a functional government over the will of the people, a government that would suppress the will of even more.

Stable coalitions at any cost are not in the interest of voters, but in the interest of politicians. It is better that members of parliament/Knesset vote with their own conscience on each and every issue separately to represent those who elected them.
Even in practical terms, the presence of many 1-member or 2-member parties (which is now prevented by this 3.25%) provides more opportunities for flexible and dynamic coalitions.

Flaking of parties can and does occur, quite often, despite that 3.25% threshold; and parties that were formed ad-hoc to bypass this threshold, split into their original fragments the very day after the elections (albeit, less accurately representing the proportions of their voters).

At present, several responsible and conscientious members of the Likud itself (Netanyahu's party) are unwilling to continue with the "electoral reform" without a wider negotiated consensus. This is how a true democracy should operate.

Israel has a population which is divided between a well-educated, technically qualified segment and a segment immersed in medieval religiosity with a high birthrate. The educated segment could probably find a home in western democracies while the superstitious segment might be satisfied with dhimmi status under Muslim domination as long as they could wallow in their superstition. Why should democracy prevail? Isn't it better that peace should prevail?

Dear David F.,

«Israel has a population which is divided between a well-educated, technically qualified segment and a segment immersed in medieval religiosity with a high birthrate.»

Both yourself and the author are oversimplifying.

Netanyahu for example eats pork and especially likes seafood, doesn't keep the Sabbath, takes bribes and has 3 children. The very last thing he wishes for, is for a Messiah to take his place!

The chairman of the Knesset, from the Likud party, is openly homosexual.

Most of the orthodox members of Knesset are well-educated.
Many orthodox women work in hi-tech.

«The educated segment could probably find a home in western democracies»

Not most of the ones I know, that is those who stayed in Israel and have not left till now, most of whom love their country. They might be able to find a home elsewhere, but they wouldn't be happy there.

Also the ones too old and frail to move, or those with small children, especially single mothers.

«the superstitious segment might be satisfied with dhimmi status under Muslim domination as long as they could wallow in their superstition.»

You really think they would accept it?

Now what about intermarriages between these two broad groups - they do exist!
And some people also change camps, both ways.
Should grandparents also leave their mixed grandchildren?

«Why should democracy prevail?»

Well why should it prevail in Australia?
Are you saying that Israelis do not deserve their voice to be heard? Just pay taxes and sacrifice their lives in the army without having a say?

«Isn't it better that peace should prevail?»

Sure - at whose expense?

Israelis cannot even have peace among themselves... and you expect there to be peace with the Arabs as well?

Dear Yuyutsu,

Netanyahu does not exemplify the life of his followers; Donald Trump does not exemplify the life of his followers; and King David did not exemplify the life of his followers. Netanyahu is a literate, intelligent man who is happy to get the votes of those who revel in medieval superstition. He is a demagogue and fits the pattern of demagogues. I don't know any good way to end the conflict. Maybe what I have suggested is a least bad way. I am not saying that Israelis should just pay taxes and sacrifice their lives in the army. I am saying they should stop doing it, get out and leave those who want others to fight for them to their own devices.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Separation of religion and state can be equated with providing free condoms if you want to make a silly argument as sometimes you do. Get real. In any country the religion of its citizens should not be the business of any government if it wants to be a democracy. Israel can be a Jewish state or it can be a democracy. It cannot be both. There is rarely a complete separation of religion and state, but they are too entangled in Israel for Israel to be a democracy. As long as Israel is a Jewish state, non-Jews will remain second-class citizens. Nobody should be a second-class citizen.

Hi david f,
"Israel and Australia cannot be true democracies until they are countries for all of their citizens."

- How can any nation please all its citizens in a liberal democracy?

How are the gays, Christians, Islamists, nationalists, immigrants, feminist and university trained woke and climate activists all going to get along?

How can it be supportive of all it's people all at once?

Dear David F.,

A democracy is supposed to represent its population, not you, I or the author:
If you have mainly garbage people - you get a garbage democracy, but still a democracy.
If you have mainly racist people - you get a racist democracy.
If you have mainly Jewish people - you get a Jewish democracy.
(but please note that this does not imply that I agree with you that Judaism is a religion, I just want to keep this discussion in focus)

And yes, a democracy could have certain minorities be second-class citizens. We may not like to live in such a place, but it could still be a democracy.

«I don't know any good way to end the conflict. Maybe what I have suggested is a least bad way.»

I assume you refer to the Jewish-Jewish conflict because the seeming "Jewish-Arab conflict" is only its reflection.

Well I disagree: that would be pouring the baby with the bath-water.
People just don't want to have to leave their homes, communities and everything else in their lives and become either refugees or dhimmis.

An increasing number of Israelis are calling and planning in detail for a division of the country, with "Israel" mostly to the north and "Judea" to the east:
http://new.thecradle.co/articles/activist-calls-for-partition-of-israel-along-secular-religious-lines
http://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-752520

The division is supposed to be carried out in 5 orderly steps, starting with increasing the powers of local councils, then eventually having the councils form two federations.

Here is the proposed final map: http://newmedia.calcalist.co.il/magazine-10-08-23/images/2-p-800.jpg

This process would be painful, no doubt, but not half as painful as being forced to leave everything behind and restart life elsewhere.

Yuyutsu

The division of populations in Democratic countries, is well underway: it’s a division based on wealth. Is Israel itself, an exception; I doubt it.
The result is gated communities, or as you predict, gated counties.

This division is very stark in Australia with its fixation on multiculturalism.
One example appropriate to this discussion, is the demographics of Sydney, one I know well enough.

The Muslim communities are pretty much confined to the Western suburbs, while their nemesis brethren the Jews, congregating in the wealthy Eastern suburbs.
.
But I know this to be a fact, both elements patrol their particular schools with armed guards, totally fearful of each others ability for retribution.

Why do you think Israel as a Democracy, is different in the mentality of its mix and match inhabitants, to other likewise Democratic conglomerates?

AC poses the more direct question a post above, viz:

#How can any nation please all its citizens in a liberal democracy?#

In pleasing everyone, nobody is pleased! Simple answer.

Any clear thinking Politician is constantly looking for ways to convert Democracies into Autocracies; that works until voting day, then it’s a Democracy again for a moment!

Dear Yuyutsu,

We have incompatible definitions of democracy. I don’t consider Israel a democracy whatever it chooses to call itself. A Jewish democracy is a contradiction and not a democracy. The US was not a democracy when it had slavery, and it is not a democracy at present when a major party denies the result of an election. Democracy is fragile and easily denied.

You wrote:

“Now what about intermarriages between these two broad groups - they do exist! And some people also change camps, both ways. Should grandparents also leave their mixed grandchildren?”

My family is an example of that.

My cousin, his mother was my father’s sister, is a supporter and acquaintance of Netanyahu, and he was president of the Orthodox Union. He wrote that he gives the government of Israel his ‘unconditional support’. One of his grandsons goes to a yeshiva in Israel with no secular subjects. My cousin graduated from Cornell and is content to have his grandson go to such a yeshiva. We differ very much on Israel. However, we exchange an occasional email in which we discuss family matters. Some of his siblings and his descendants disagreed with both of us. I have no disagreements with my descendants on Israel as far as I know. My cousin’s siblings are dead, and I have none. We both have many descendants.

To my mind Israel is a failed experiment. Others disagree. With all my cousin’s devotion to the government of Israel he remains in Los Angeles. We disagree, but he is not stupid.

Possibly, Costa Rica and Iceland are the most democratic countries in the world at present.

Dear AC,

A country cannot please all its citizens, but it can do its best to give them all equal rights under law. I think chaplains in the state schools and government aid to private schools are undemocratic, but I’m not going to leave Australia because of that. I will try to change it by legal means.

Dear Dan,

«Why do you think Israel as a Democracy, is different in the mentality of its mix and match inhabitants, to other likewise Democratic conglomerates?»

The original Zionists who first arrived in and built would-be-Israel, came there in order to renew an old culture, the Hebrew culture. They were enthusiastic, they had a purpose, they seemed to make it but then they failed, and they feel bitter about it, they still struggle desperately to try and save that culture, but the Jewish culture from which they tried to escape, now seems to be winning.

In other countries, like in Australia, there are no such presumptions.
I am not here to form or participate in a culture, I never had any such expectations, I am here only to live my life. Period. If you have such expectations than you too, like the Israelis, will be disappointed.

---

Dear David F.,

Yes, it feels like Israel is a failed experiment, but the jury is still out.

The seeds of this failure were first sewn when Ben Gurion opportunistically agreed to declare Israel a "Jewish state" rather than the Hebrew state he really wanted; then second of course in 1967.

Still, I don't think that your cousin in Los Angeles would be willing and happy to host my family members in his own house should they become refugees, nor do you have room for them in your small retirement unit, thus they have to fend for themselves and somehow survive. Looking at the map, some of them have their homes and farm right on the proposed border line between Israel and Judea. If they happen to fall on the wrong, Judean, side, then they might have to lose their home and either become "internally displaced" or join other relatives in Europe and America.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Except for God, I don't think we differ greatly. One mistake humans make is to try to recreate a past world in the present. It can never be done. Ben Gurion may have wanted a Hebrew state rather a Jewish state. It really doesn't matter. The world of his time is a different world from the world he would recreate. Various Christian movements try to go back to the world of their Bible. Anachronism and nostalgia inform their fruitless efforts. Time is unidirectional.

One of the most quoted remarks of Karl Marx, is “History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, second as a farce”. I think Marx was wrong. I think history never repeats itself. The present is not the past.

What is 'true democracy'?
If it's what you've got in the US it's probably time for a rethink.

Dear Critic,

«What is 'true democracy'?»

Why is this question important to you?

Are you perchance expecting democracy to grant you salvation?

Democracy is just one system by which some people order other people around, and in that particular case the ordering party is not a king, not a bunch of aristocrats or priests, not a particular family or tribe, but rather the majority of the people who are being ordered, which form a group that one had not even been given a choice whether or not to belong to.

What's the big deal about it?