Thanks Yuyutsu,
I see David f, married his wife for his established scientific reasons and not for faith in their future. He did not believe in the business he started; it is a wonder he failed? He denies the right of the entrepreneur to believe in the future he could not perceive. He does not believe in moral responsibility, and honesty in relationships such as the teachings of the ten commandments and the teachings of Jesus Christ as they are not based in observable science so you can prove and move forward. He has never applied forgiveness for his past as it is based on religion. He does not understand grace as it is benefit where it is not deserved as it is a religious faith concept.

He applies his understanding to the horrific wrongs of history committed by humans.

Dear Josephus,

Your posting concerning me is inaccurate since you do not know me. However, you have the power of faith not to need knowledge of me or anything else. You have the power of faith which is the ability to be certain of your belief when it is not based on evidence. You brought in Jesus Christ who cursed a fig tree because it wouldn't bear out of season. That was stupid. Of course, the Bible is an unreliable chronicle, and maybe he wasn't that stupid. The ten commandments are not a reliable guide to behavior since the first five concern relations with a deity which doesn't exist. Josephus, I do not share your superstitions, and you have no reason to think I do.

I have read about 'the horrific wrongs of history'. Many of them were committed because the humans who committed them thought they were following the dictates of God. The Inquisition, the destruction of pagan temples and art, the Crusades, the persecution and murder of Jews and other non-Christians and the burning of heretics and witches at the stake were the consequence of Christians who thought that's what God wants. The atrocities were the product of faith.

Dear Josephus,

It is not nice, not fair and not true to claim that David F. has no faith.

Just because David does not consciously recognise and/or admit his faith does not imply that his faith is less than mine or yours: one who has an absolutely perfect faith is a saint and I am not. Even Moses did not have complete faith, because when he was told to speak to the rock and ask it to bring forth water for his people, he instead struck the rock with his staff (twice).

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Dear David F.,

«To believe without proof as faith asks us to do is to revere ignorance.»

I do believe that Einstein's general relativity theory is correct and that he could prove that well, even while his proof is presently beyond me.

That makes me ignorant, but not a reverer of ignorance (I don't mind knowing Einstein's proof, I have no objection to it, it's just not high enough on my priority-list to afford the necessary time to study).

«Faith leads to atrocity»

Faith in worldly things can lead to anything, including atrocities.

Faith in God has nothing to do with worldly affairs.

«wars, pogroms and other manifestations of religion.»

Manifestations of misrepresentation of God.

«Believers in faith use such nonsense phrases as the 'science of the divine' as though superstitious belief is science.»

'Science' also means [Oxford]:
2. [ARCHAIC] knowledge of any kind. "his rare science and his practical skill"

This is how I used the word, having nothing to do with physical/natural science.

The first commandments define character higher than failed humans and to which we ought to aspire. True Worship is not idle words of praise, but the appreciation of aspects of character to which Humanity is linked. We are made in the image of the Divine, to which we ascribe fullness of living and wisdom.

To not believe we have a moral responsibility to character higher than ourselves allows us to believe in any behavior is acceptable. A train that runs on the tracks the designer designed for it is its purpose, a train that has no barriers where it goes is a monster.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I appreciate your comments concerning me. I cannot know everything (although I would like to) so I must accept some things on faith. Since I don't share Josephus' faith. He characterizes me as faithless and as lacking in certain qualities. I try to limit the areas that I accept by faith, but I cannot eliminate them completely. Maybe that's good. I think Josephus has the feeling of many people that those who share their delusions are more virtuous.

I don't share his particular faith as I think it is largely nonsense with a horrible history. Yet, I am sure if we compared all the beliefs unsupported by evidence that Josephus, you and I have we would find some, maybe many, in common. Online opinion is not a venue favorable to discovering other elements of our mental makeup that we share, but I think they exist.

I appreciate your clarification of your use of the word, science.

Yuyutsu wrote: “Faith in worldly things can lead to anything, including atrocities.”

The above statement shows that Yuyutsu is trapped in superstitious belief. There are only worldly things. The belief that there is something other than the things of this world gives ministers, priests, rabbis, lamas, imams and other clergy power over superstitious people who believe in such things. Josephus shares Yuyutsu’s superstitious belief. He questions the morality of those who do not share his superstition and believe in his non-existent deity.

The religious con man rides supreme because he encourages the superstitious to distrust the enlightened ones who see through his cons.

Those who accept superstition believe that those who do not are somewhat less moral. Morality doesn’t come from laws laid down by a supernatural being. It is a way of living in society. If you are honest and have a record of keeping your word you will be trusted. All individuals are not honest. There are men and women who will con people and cheat. There are mechanisms in law to deal with such people. Humans have to be wary of such individuals. When such an individual dons the robes of clergy it becomes easier for him or her to cheat and steal.

Elmer Gantry is a literary creation of Sinclair Lewis who exemplifies such a con man.

One adage comes to mind: When they talk about God, hold on to your wallet. As Barnum said, “There’s a sucker born every minute and two to take them.”

There is no evidence for the existence of supernatural entities. Those who want you to take on that superstitious belief make a virtue of faith. Faith should always be a provisional matter. It should be given conditionally and withdrawn when it is proven to be unjustified.

The sanctity of doubt is a virtue in the real world.