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The Forum > Article Comments > Overruling Roe v Wade: the international dimension > Comments

Overruling Roe v Wade: the international dimension : Comments

By Binoy Kampmark, published 5/7/2022

'As a global abortion provider, we know that the impact of this decision will be also felt around the word,' warned Sarah Shaw, Global Head of Advocacy at MSI Reproductive Choices..

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Regarding abortion up till birth, when is birth complete, is it when the body is free of the birth canal or when the umbilical cord is clamped/cut.

It is apparently legal to pierce the head when it is in sight but still within the mother but what about a breech birth, is it legal to stab the body whilst the head is still inside?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 11 July 2022 10:11:01 AM
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Is Mise – Queensland abortionist, David Grundmann, promoted the use of “partial birth abortion”, which is the name of the technique you are referring to, for late term abortions, as far back as the 1990s. With that technique the abortionist has to turn the baby in the womb so they come out feet first rather than head first. When the baby is fully delivered except for the head, scissors are used to create a hole at the base of the skull and then the brains are vacuumed out. (If you have the stomach see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UfA6TR9cg)

If the baby was fully delivered from the mother when this was done it would be murder, but because part of the baby is still within the uterus it is called abortion and is legal.(This technique was made illegal in the USA in 2003 but is still legal in Australia.) This grotesque method was introduced to avoid what is called “the dreaded complication”, ie, a baby born alive that sometimes happens when other techniques are used. (If the baby survives, what is to be done with the baby? They were meant to be dead - so they are just left to die (which is illegal).) Certainly no baby survives partial birth abortion.

When late abortions are done in hospitals, as opposed to private abortion clinics such as where Grundmann worked, I understand they don’t do partial birth abortions but rather they just bring on a premature delivery and hope the baby dies as a consequence. However they then have to deal with the dreaded complication from time to time when a baby does survive.

If Rhian and Divergence read this, I wonder if they think this is okay?
Posted by JP, Monday, 11 July 2022 11:13:13 AM
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JP,
Thanks for that; and people sometimes wonder how Dr. Mengele was able to sleep at night.

The Angles of Death are still among us.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 11 July 2022 6:35:46 PM
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JP,

My own opinion is like that of President Clinton: abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. It is possible to drastically reduce abortions. See the Colorado Family Planning Initiative.

http://cdphe.colorado.gov/fpp/about-us/colorados-success-long-acting-reversible-contraception-larc

Only around 1% of abortions take place after 21 weeks and the vast majority take place within the first trimester, where the embryo or fetus is in much the same position as a brain-dead patient when it comes to sentience. Moment of conception is a religious dogma that not all accept.

http://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/jewish-abortion-rights-advocates-use-religious-freedom-suit-access-rcna34178

Potential people are not actual people, so if it were up to me, I would leave it up to the woman at this stage.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2019/mar/07/abortion-late-term-what-pregnancy-stage

After the first trimester, I would require two doctors to sign off on any abortion and be subject to medical ethics. As it is, a great proportion of late abortions take place because something has gone tragically wrong with a wanted pregnancy. In other cases, there have been financial or other barriers, and something should be done about them, but they don't justify a late abortion. I certainly don't condone your partial birth abortion.
Posted by Divergence, Tuesday, 12 July 2022 1:41:47 PM
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Divergence – if there is nothing wrong with abortion why do you think it should be rare?

If, as you say, only 1% of abortions are done after 21 weeks, that still means about 1 000 such babies are barbarically killed each year in this country. Who cares about 1 000 babies?

Yes, babies in the first trimester probably are not sentient but why should that mean they should be able to be killed? New born babies can’t talk, so should they be able to be killed? Of course not. Newborns have the capacity for speech and one day that will be realised. Equally, the newly conceived human being has the capacity for sentience, for speech, for play, etc, and one day that will all be realised. Just because a human being cannot do something at a particular time is no grounds for saying they should be able to be killed. That is barbarity.

You say that holding that life begins at conception is a religious dogma: show me one religious argument that I have put forward in this discussion.

You say that potential people are not actual people. There is no such thing as a potential person. You either have a living human being/person or you don’t. Why should a woman, presumably in your mind, just because she carries the baby, thereby be allowed to have the baby killed? What about motherhood confers on her the right to be the executioner of her own child?

You say you don’t condone partial birth abortion. Is that because of the horrible way the child is killed? If so, then you should oppose all abortion because all the methods are awful.

You say that abortions should be subject to “medical ethics”. It is not very long ago that all doctors at graduation promised not to do abortions: “I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion” – now look where we are with abortions legal to birth and doctor’s and nurse’s conscientious objection to participating suppressed.
Posted by JP, Wednesday, 13 July 2022 10:50:31 AM
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JP,

Abortion is an ugly business and best avoided if possible. I don't know why anyone would ever think it is a good thing. It is just that sometimes the alternative is worse.

So far as early abortion is concerned, a blueprint is not a building, and there is no reason why it needs to be translated into one. A zygote or embryo might carry the instructions for building a human person, but that doesn't mean that it is one yet, i.e., it is a potential person. We will just have to disagree on this. It is hard to deny that moment of conception is a religious dogma. See the second link in my previous post. There are circumstances where Jewish law *requires* an abortion.

You cannot be forced to donate a kidney or even a pint of blood, even to save someone's life, even if that someone is your own child. What gives you the right to commandeer a woman's body and expose her to pain and suffering, economic hardship, and very real risks to her health or possibly even her life, especially if the pregnancy is the result of forced sex or contraceptive failure? I am not condoning carelessness, but it shouldn't result in forced childbirth. When it comes to late abortions, however, you can argue that she has implicitly given consent by letting the pregnancy go on for so long and that now another human person really is involved.
Posted by Divergence, Thursday, 14 July 2022 11:12:13 AM
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