The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > The path to alternative truth > Comments

The path to alternative truth : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 9/9/2021

It has come as a great surprise that public discourse can now be judged as entering a

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. All
Sells,
Your belief in God is about as truthful as the Yanks belief that Trump is still the POTUS.
David
Posted by VK3AUU, Thursday, 9 September 2021 8:50:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"We are here to glorify God." Is God so insecure that He needs frequent glorification? I am one of the two creators of my children. They don't need to glorify me. I hope they like me a bit.

I think it is good to love truth. That is one reason that such concepts as the virgin birth and life after death should be recognised as assertions with no evidence to back them.

Let us strive for truth.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 9 September 2021 8:59:55 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Let us strive for truth.
davidf,
A lot of high ranking people would lose their positions !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 9 September 2021 9:44:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
All politicians are not liars. I was an advisor to Senator John Woodley who is also a minister of the Uniting Church. In our association I never knew John to lie. It was a pleasure to work with him, and I wish that all politicians were as scrupulous.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 9 September 2021 10:40:49 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It seems to me that the brutal history perpetrated by the officers of the institutional church tells us without a shadow of a doubt that any and everything was/is always possible for those who believe that they are "saved" by believing in the obvious nonsense associated with the brutal murder and alleged "resurrection" of Jesus.

Indeed such has always been the case - look at all the horrors perpetrated by christian true believers throughout his-story. Beginning with the systematic murder of "heretics" by the enforcers of the official dogmas of institutional church which was created by those who won the culture wars in their time and place - 300 years or so ago.

Some present time leading edge purveyors of the perennial christian psychosis - not so much as a smidgen of an iota of transcendental truth to be found in anything they say or do
Billy Graham
Franklin Graham (son of Billy)
Jerry Falwell
Pat Robertson
Tony Perkins
Phyllis Schafly
Richard Land
Robert Jeffress
Paige Paterson
Mike Pence
James Dobson
Posted by Daffy Duck, Thursday, 9 September 2021 12:29:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Alternative truth? Sorry, Peter, there's no such animal!

The truth is something we can prove absolutely and without a shadow of doubt! All else is speculation, assumption or superstition like say, Constantine's version of seriously reworked and revised Christian belief, which has so little in common with early esoteric Christain practice as to beggar belief!

Faith-based belief is not the truth! Just constantly evolving speculation!

And none can say that any particular passage in Constitine' version of religious belief, has so much as a scaric of divinely inspired truth!? But might contain a (do unto others) universal golden rule code for living!

And one does not need to be a member of some political organisation that calls itself, a religion, to believe that? Even so, words even if voluminous, are worthless! Only actions have results or outcomes!
Alan B
Posted by Alan B., Thursday, 9 September 2021 12:55:15 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Senator John Woodley who is also a minister of the Uniting Church".

Politics and the Uniting Church. It doesn't get worse than that! The Uniting Church was among the first to throw its doors open to Marxist dogma.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 9 September 2021 1:20:59 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
But where does human virtue come from, or what is its source point?

It is in the intrinsically beautiful heart-space of prior unity, or non separativeness.

To "sin" is to miss the mark of being established in that beautiful heart-space of prior unity. Every thing that a sinner thus says and does is an extension of that separative disposition - and simultaneously reinforces it too.

That is why sinners always create hell on earth. Have you read the news?

It is interesting to note that McIntyre also stated that what the world desparately needs is the appearance of a Saint of the stature of Saint Benedict.
But as a serious Christian why didn't he state/claim that what the world needs is the appearance of another Divine Incarnation of the stature of Jesus as distinct from a mere Saint (however worthy in his long ago time and place).

It is also interesting to note that a Radiantly Alive Saint has not appeared in the Western world within the last 500 years. And that the appearance of a Saint of even modest stature is virtually impossible within the Protestant tradition - because it is the "religious" face of the now world dominant paradigm of the left brained spirit-killing word which patterns and controls every minute fraction of human culture.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Thursday, 9 September 2021 3:54:22 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Peter
There is much wisdom in what you say, but the church is not immune from grappling with the problem of truth. Most obviously, in our Anglican communion (I’m also a member) there is a culture war between evangelicals who believe that the miracles described in the bible are historically accurate reports of actual events, and constitute what you call “evidentiary proof” of supernatural activity in the world; and those sometimes called “liberals” who interpret these stories as symbols and metaphors pointing to deeper truths that are otherwise impossible to communicate in ordinary human language. A church whose members, and even leaders, cannot agree on whether Jesus’ resurrection was a literal bodily event needs to be careful criticising secular interpretations of the meaning of truth
Posted by Rhian, Thursday, 9 September 2021 4:14:30 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Rhian,
Good point. The evangelicals owe much to Enlightenment rationality. ie. nothing is true if it is not a fact. This is why they scour the bible for evidence that it all happened as in the text. Thus evangelicalism is a product of modernism.

I am often accused of being a liberal. This is far from the truth. A better description is "Post-liberal" as in Barth's onslaught against the liberals in Germany for whom Jesus was just a nice guy or perhaps a religious genius.

As for the dear old Anglican church split between vacuous, self obsessed individuality (I believe so that I will get to heaven, is a corse description) and serious minded theologians who treat the texts with the respect they deserve i,e, in their context and understood in the light of the theology of the Church, what can I say? Perhaps we can say that the truth will out?
Posted by Sells, Thursday, 9 September 2021 7:19:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Sells,

Do you believe in the virgin birth, the triune god, life after death for those who believe, the Resurrection of Jesus and Jesus taking on the sins of all who believe in him? I understand all these are doctrines in which a Christian is supposed to believe,
Posted by david f, Thursday, 9 September 2021 7:32:36 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hindu philosophy speaks of four levels of truth:

1. Asatyam - complete untruth (e.g. the horns of a rabbit)
2. Pratibhasika - subjective truth (e.g. experiences within dreams)
3. Vyavaharika - Objective truth (i.e. "facts")
4. Paramarthika - Ultimate truth (i.e. God)

The author is correct when stating: "There is only one transcendent telos. We are here to glorify God"

But to effectively glorify God we need to know God.
To know God we first need to live as humans.
To live as humans we need to eat.
To eat we need to interact with others.
Interaction with others is only possible on the Vyavaharika, practical, transactional level.
And since living on this transactional level of relative-truth is tiring, we also need to retire at times, rest and dream.

The sages declare that objective truth is to the ultimate truth, like the subjective experience of dream is to objective truth.
To know God is akin to waking up from a dream to discover the objective reality of lying in bed.
Suppose we have a cup of water on our bedside table: no matter how thirsty we are in our dream, we cannot drink that cup. Likewise we cannot glorify God so long as we are absorbed in the objective world. We do keep trying, but remain thirsty until, by God's grace, we get so frustrated that we wake up.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 9 September 2021 11:58:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
.

Dear Peter,

.

You wrote :

« We are here to glorify God »
.

Wow ! That's a magnificent ode to idolatry !

It’s also a very blunt statement, Peter – certain and final – presented as a well-established fact.

The only explanation (justification) you offer for what you consider to be an incontestable reality is : « that public discourse can now be judged as entering a "post-truth" age and that our social and personal lives and institutions are being eroded … ».

It seems that even you, Peter, have become a victim of what you qualify as an "erosion" – unless, of course, “post-truth” is just a modern term for religious dogma – in which case, there is no "erosion", but just the same discourse as usual.

You note sadly that :

« The young sense this and this realization saps them of the will to live »

You, nevertheless, confirm that :

« … empiricism is alive and well. Our experience of the world is accurate ».
.

Excellent article, Peter …

"Post-truthfully" speaking (of course) !

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 10 September 2021 1:56:00 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
If you want truth you'll need to get rid of sex & money !
Posted by individual, Friday, 10 September 2021 4:54:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Daffy Duck and his personal struggle against the Gentiles.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 10 September 2021 6:47:14 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Gee willackers, Peter.

You started your post pointing out how totalitarians are noted for their shameless lying, So, I thought you now realised that you must defend our democratic ideals? Especially free speech, from those who routinely suppress the truth. Just in case you have not noticed, it is the extreme Left side of politics who are presently the ones suppressing free speech. And that means free religious speech. Remember when the homosexual lobby in Tasmania had some priest prosecuted for doing nothing more than sending a letter to his parishioners urging them to not vote for homosexual "marriage"?

The Daffy extreme Left is leading the charge to attack the Christian churches and suppress Christian religious beliefs, while simultaneously claiming those "Progressive" beliefs that the Christian churches long advocated, belong to the Left.

So, that being the indisputable case, one would have thought that Peter would be cheering for Trump? As he was infinitely more popular with the religious right in the USA than that poor senile man Biden. Especially as no President in US history has had to endure the complete hostility of the mainstream press, who never stopped lying and spinning about Trump, while simultaneously exhibiting acute myopia with the real scandals surrounding Biden, and especially his crooked son.

When it comes to psychoanalysing the peculiar beliefs of people, I can only say that Peter Sellick is an interesting case. He seems to be attracted to the Left side of politics because the Left loves to portray itself as the champions of morality and virtue. And Peter seems to have a deep psychological need to be seen as morally virtuous too.

But you see, Peter, the claims by the Left that they are to font of all morality is just an act. They know it appeals to children and immature adults, and those who need to be moral puritans. Please watch "Elmer Gantry" staring Burt Lancaster and see how easy it is to con the morally pure.
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 10 September 2021 9:20:04 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Let's get back to basic principles.
We will assume that people can think and are also reasonable.
A belief is something one thinks is true.
Probably, a circumstance one has considered carefully, and decided is more likely than not to have validity.
To reach that conclusion, one must have considered many relevant facts?
These would be assessed objectively, and divided in to for and against?
The 'fors' being (much?) greater, one might conclude that the matter being thought about is likely to be true?
One might then proceed using that perceived truth as a basis for action, but even so, one would need to keep an open mind.
Be prepared at all times to reconsider 'beliefs', as life's experiences and new knowledge shape your understanding of the world?
This all assumes one has the ability to think and sift grains of truth from the chaff of life?

If the person has done his homework, and reached a valid conclusion, it shouldn't be too hard to convey that reasoning to another person.
Then that second person will have the opportunity to accept the 'belief' and all its benefits for himself.
This can never happen with a religious concept.
For there is simply no valid reason to justify the 'acceptance' of the so called 'beliefs' involved.
So no valid reasoning can be conveyed to another person.
Instead, a steady stream of statements is often made to emphasise the so called truth of a matter.
Whether or not the statements have validity appears to be irrelevant.
They are supposed to be accepted unquestioned?
I think this approach is called preaching?
When this fails, unpleasant coercion is often resorted to, to 'force' persons in to 'apparent' acceptance.
Altogether, a rather nasty state of affairs.
Posted by Ipso Fatso, Monday, 13 September 2021 7:43:45 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy