There are two classes of blacks; the good ones that integrate, and the rabble that will never conform. It’s a class war!

Dan

My reply to the comment about 'two kinds of people'.
Yes, there are two kinds of people: Ones who seek to understand the Aborigine tragedy and hope and want healing and ones who ignorantly blame and incite wars.
Andris Heks

Dear Andris,

Well said.

Dear Diver Dan,

Really? This was the time and the article where you felt you had to flick out the little snide remark? Bloody hell mate.

This humble but very talented DTE Australian does us all very proud!

And a shining example to the world on following your dreams wherever they led you! And with a never give up attitude!

Accept the kudos, Barty, you have well and truly earned it!
Alan B.

dd,
you are abominable.

I wasn't aware that Ashley Barty has a PARTIAL indigenous heritage on her father's side. But, I have no interest in tennis nor in identity politics. Neither, it seems, does Barty. But, there is always someone who wants to drag out differences. What's the difference between being part black and, shock horror, part white.

Dan, Can't fathom why you felt you needed to shite on a very fine Australian's deserved parade? You've got to be a real piece of work?

You might have white skin? But I'll warrant, a coal-black soul?

Others have lived through their own hell without taking their personal shite out on the friendlies!

This never ever was a time for you to empty your poisoned mind! When the only response warranted was the deserved praise of a fair dinkum Aussie who does us all so very proud!

Couldn't be more proud Barty, if I tried!
Alan B.

Not a criticism of Ashleigh Barty, but why do so many winning sports men and women kiss their trophies? A very strange behaviour, I suggest.

Ashleigh Barty said:

"It's never over until we're shaking hands
at the net. Then you've either won or you've
lost and either way - you look them in the
eye and say - ' Well played mate.'

Enjoy the moment Ash. Australia is so proud of you!

Good one Foxy.

Thanks ateday.

'What's the difference beteen blacks and whites?' you ask.
It is that Barty's Australian ancestors on the black side were decimated and humiliated beyond belief by whites.
As to Barty, she cares deeply about Aborigines, being their tennis embassador, wearing the Evone Goologong tennis outfit at Wimbledon in honour of Yvonne, saying after her victory that she hopes she made her proud, etc

Andries.

No, I didn’t say “people” I said blacks.

So in your fluffy world of imagination with little contact with the black reality, it’s ok to describe people as black when referring to “black lives matter”, but when someone such as myself, who has been saturated with blacks most of his life, refer to them as blacks, I’m the boogie man.
I didn’t once hear the word racist used against me, that’s refreshing.

SR.
Toughen up son!

Aidan.
I’m beginning to wonder about you.

Dan

"What's the difference between being part black and, shock horror, part white" .... is not the same as 'what's the difference between black and white', the difference being the word 'part'.

Mixed raced people often enthuse about the black part, no matter how small, but overlook the white part, no matter how large. Ashamed of the white part, are they? Not surprising, I suppose, given the ravings of self-hating white renegades continually polluting the internet with their garbage.

Write what you like, but do try to accurately take in what others actually say. I know that's a lot to expect from an ABC hack, but you could try? Perhaps not.

Some 'part-Aborigines' are not extremely proud of their white ancestry as they often raped, enslaved and otherwise abused and then abanboned the black women who bore their now mixed offsprings. Whether those with mixed heritage wish to identify one way or another is their business.

Hi Andris,

The same goes for my grandkids. Not all of them
want to identify with their ancestors - of Lithuanian,
Russian and other mixes. They want to fit in and
consider themselves as "true blue" Aussies. Whatever
that means. Hopefully they will grow out of this as
they're still quite young. I guess that often happens
to many children growing up in this country. They don't
acknowledge their roots until they're older. And then
it becomes a process of discovery - and exciting for them.

Yes Foxy.
I came from Hungary as a teenager and bec. I thought I could never return because of communism there,I tried to assimilate here and discard my Hungarian roots.
This only lead to depression. Eventually I acknowledged that I was a hybrid and without also valuing and nurturing my native heritage I could only be impoverished. So integration not assimilation seems to me the noble Aussie way. Unity in diversity. What I believe a non-negotiable Aussie ideal is a 'fair go'. But beyond that, lets celebrate our rich diversity and be a truly United Nation.

Dear Andris,

I totally agree. And Bravo for saying that!
We have more that unites us than what divides
us - my parents fled from the Stalin terror
so I understand your position. They too
were expected to assimilate when they came to
this country. I was born here - but because of
my "foreign" name - I've also had some less positive
experiences. Not a "fair go" at times. However
integration is the key.

The problem you exhibit Andries, is you can’t differentiate between the Doxa of you and your sub-set, and the truth.

The whole point of Western Philosophy is to seek out the “Truth”, not the relative truth which is the foundation of your liberal views.
That point is actually the Achilles heel of Black Lives Matter, gay rights, and whatever utter lies you lot delude yourselves with.

So when I say, as I did in the opening post above:

“There are two classes of blacks; the good ones that integrate, and the rabble that will never conform. It’s a class war.”

that is not a relative truth, as you attempt to make believe, it is actually the truth!

Dan

"Some 'part-Aborigines' are not extremely proud of their white ancestry as they often raped, enslaved and otherwise abused and then abanboned the black women who bore their now mixed offsprings. Whether those with mixed heritage wish to identify one way or another is their business".

What about the ongoing mixed marriages such as that of Senate candidate Jacinta Price's parents? You've got a bad mouth on you, boy, and you clearly have a racist attitude to relationships between white and non-white Australians. Too much time at the ABC.

Double hit. That should hold the fool down for awhile!

Dan

Dear Diver Dan,

Toughen up? What a bloody childish comeback to criticism.

Look mate, the indigenous thing was mentioned in the last few paragraphs of the article, he rest was a celebration of her win which I think we can all be proud of her and for her.

I know comments like yours usually come from insecurities typical of your ilk. But even the most clueless would recognise when something is just mindless, petty, churlish sniping. I think you recognise it too but those afore mentioned insecurities will never allow you to acknowledge what an absolute flog move you pulled.

What immature people tend to do is to double down instead. You have been true to form.

So instead of telling me to toughen up why don't you think about growing up.

I saw part of the TV show "History bites back" where white people played the part of Aborigines . I'd have thought the Indigenous film industry would have sufficient actors by now ?

SR

I don’t tolerate camouflaged liberal doctrinal sermons.
My God is truth, not a representative of it!
I’ll say what I think pertaining to that truth.
In closing, in Heaven there are no shades of grey: Black is black, white is white!

Dan

Black is black, white is white!
diver dan,
The guilt industry cooperative thinks otherwise !

Dear Dan,
You say that your religion is truth: is class war and spewing venom, the truth?
Gandhi said that his religion was truth.
Christ said that truth sets you free.
Can you be free while being loaded with loathings and paranoia?
Ghandi said: the 'a seeker for truth must be humbler than the dust...'
Are you such?
He and Christ also said that true love is one where you can love those who hate you and whom you distrust.
May you find such true love!

Dan,

Black and white might be sufficient for you.
But why deprive yourself of color?

Well said, as usual, Foxy.
Dasvidanja.

#...The guilt industry cooperative thinks otherwise...#

Thanks, I like that one. Accurately descriptive.

And here I am, a poor little white boy speaking in colloquial language unacceptable.

Speaking only the truth, in tongue of the commoners. And for that, round condemnation from the screeching classes.

Tut Tut.

Dan

Dasvidanja.
Andris,
I'm sure Foxy will be delighted by your endorsement of her ideology using that language !
Greek women adopted by an Aborigine family & who now is a recognised indigenous Elder who publicly relishes in condemning the white settlers would be someone Foxy would be very supportive of.

Regarding Aborigines as subhuman,shooting them up for sport, dispossessing them of their land and languages are only some of the hideous crimes which were committed against them by many of the settlers and officialdom.
It is then hardly surprising that a migrant adopted by members of the first nations would condemn settlers for such atrocities.

Hello Andris,

Spasiba.

And -

Aciu labai.

Andris,
Of course, many incidents in human history were appalling but as we see on the News daily, nothing really much has changed. From those committing atrocities to those who keep blaming generations who had no part in any of them !
Lying about ancestry to aid stirring up more conflict is not warranted either !
Such hypocrisy is what causes history repeating !

We, all the generations since the invasion of the first nations' Australia, are beneficiaries of this robbery' as we all live on stolen land. This is not a matter of guilt-whipping or blaming innocent by-standers, it is simply acknowledging the truth of this country's history. Such admission of truth is necessary if the Australian dream of a fair go is to have a chance for becoming a reality for the first nations' descendents too.

Your what’s called a “sucker” to the cause. You haven’t a clue!

Dan

stolen land
Andris,
Much land was taken over without agreement from the indigenous long-time occupiers. Some was sold for a few sticks of tobacco etc., some occupiers were chased out & many died from conflict !
Quite a few generations of Australians have compensated the indgenous to a greater extent than what the cost of buying it would be today.
Most Aborigines live on their land still with houses & services of all kinds provided by the perpetual indirect lease payments.
The activists in the city suburbs are misappropriating much of what is destined for the people in the Bush.
They're in fact stealing from their own. Todays non-indigenous are constantly paying for what their forebears did including the forebears of those claiming some indigenous heritage ! They're not living on stolen land anymore, they're now living on leased land !
The greater percentage of the past-blamers are hypocrites as they themselves live the lifestyle of those they condemn !

There can be no adequate perpetual lease payment to the descendents of the first nations here without proudly acknowleding that their history is foundational to Australia's settled history of some sixty thousand years and PAYING respect to it as such.
The theft of their land pulled out the rug from under the possibility of Aborigines continuing with their traditional way of life en masse. Together with the rest of systematic atrocities and thefts, such as for long forbidding their use of native languages (many of which, because of this, by now have become irretreavably lost), the systemic stealing of a generation, the undermining of the traditional authority and leadership of Aborigine elders, etc, all these inflicted such colossal demage on first nations that the result was an almost total wipe out and demoralisation of these nations. The survivors suffered such multigenerational disintegration and trauma that it requires a concerted and compassionate effort by a combination of Aborigine leadership and national solidarity to achieve gradual healing.

"jo reggelt kivanok," Andris,

It is essential for Australians, especially young
students, to have genuine opportunities to
learn about this nation's past and share
in our complete and balanced national story.

History is what it is. We should know the truth
about it.

I've only recently learned about my ancestors
country's history - not all of it was positive.
But at least now I am beginning to learn the truth.

Andris,
Do you live on stolen land ? If so why ?
I bought land on which the wasn't even the slightest sign of any previous occupation par the regular Wallabies.
I pay taxes of which some goes to indigenous causes. I have indigenous neighbours who are divided by one family who wants to sell a mining lease to a Chinese company but most don't want that to happen. They're already receiving very handsome dividends from another mine on their land.
Why on earth are you living on stolen land ? Don't you feel guilty doing so ?

Laba diena or Good afternoon Foxy.
Foxy as Churchill said 'Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.'
Fortunately, Aussie schools start to tell some of the truth about the Invasion and colonialisation.
I wrote about migrant integration and refugees here:
https://startsat60.com/author/andris-heks
where nearly 80 of my articles are posted. Please see my you tube play about the re-emergence of Stalinist/Maoist totalitarianism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pib8v6PBSQ
The Barty article is now republished here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pib8v6PBSQ
Strolling down, it is currantly the ninth article on the right.
The comments there are from Aussie, NZ and US viewers.
Of the thirty comments so far, this is a typical one:
'I agree with all those comments and I too, was so taken with her calm determination, her strength, both physically and emotionally. What we witnessed when she finally came together with her partner and team in the hallway was, as stated in the blog, a truly a private moment but one we were privileged to witness. We could see her shoulders drop with relief. No doubt her joy and pride in the win would follow later when privately celebrating with her team. A truly wonderful Ambassador for all Australians.'
All the commentators applaud Barty.
My reply to 'Individual's comment above:
Yes, I do live on stolen land, together with all the migrants who came to this country since the Invasion. But our native brothers and sisters are gracious enough not to tell us to get out and give back all their stolen land.
Rather, what they ask for is, as I said above, 1 The acknowlegement of this theft, 2 The recognition of indigenous history and culture as a foundational basis of Australian history 3 Adequate granting of land rights 4 Constitutional recognition and official Aborigines sent representation in Federal Parliament. 5 A treaty 6 Genuine sorrow on the part of the people of this land about the shocking injustices done to the indigenous population of this country through the invasion and through many years of colonialisation.
Please see my poem:
https://startsat60.com/opinion/blogs/australias-poet-lorikeet-denis-kevans-megalong-gundangurra-werriberri

Thank You Andris for sharing your work with me.
I'm very moved. Your write beautifully.
I Loved your poem. I compiled an anthology of
anti-war poetry of Australian authors and discovered
quite a few Aboriginal writers in the process.
Kevin Gilbert was a surprise.

I write short stories for children and young adults. Stories
about puffless dragons, big-footed pixies, bully cats,
prankster spirits, glass slippers, and cursed storms.
To name just a few.

Thank You again for sharing.

Andris,
I see where you're coming from & it is noble thinking. I've had the same sentiments in the early days when I first started working/living in remote communities. It took about six weeks some 42 years ago to dampen my idealism.
The older indigenous people were absolutely fine folk. The younger ones had already been indoctrinated by Leftist ideology & this they brought back to the communities which then became divided.
Cannabis & alcohol did the rest to ruin whatever harmony had been. I recall talking with the Deputy Premier of Qld (Labor) & he said that it was hoped that Cape York could become the indigenous State of Australia. It was his Govt that then flooded the communities with Public Servants & took away any chance the Indigenous had to self determination. They took away a system in which a Chairman/woman was the authority in the community & who was respected by the people. Progress was gradual but progress it was. When this system was dismantled, incompetent bureaucrats did what incompetent bureaucrats do & the rest is unrecorded history !

Many thanks Foxy.
Can you give reference to your anthology and stories which sound delightful.
I met Kevin Gilbert in the early 1970's when on This Day Tonight I was a Production Assistant to Peter Luck who did a half an hour TV special on him on the occassion of being released from jail.
Individual: thank you for your comments.Yes, the admin. of Ab.l Affairs has a long history of disastreous mismanagement.
I have no illusions of the severity of degradation of many Aborigine communities.In 1973 I worked with the North Australian Aboriginal Legal Service.I followed the findings of the then Royal Commission on Aborinal Alcoholism in the Northern Territory.The findings were shocking.
Now I have a neighbour who has been a fly-in dentist to Arhnem Land
communities, especially Maningrida, for the last 6 years. The picture he paints of the conditions there are also horrendous.
Yet through all these, I never lost hope. The resilience of Aborigines in surviving and still going forward in spite of innumerable obstacles
has been nothing less than extraordinary. It even started with Captain Cook's landing when they told him in no uncertain terms that they didn't want him to come ashore and urged him to leave them alone.
Jump to the resilience of the https://startsat60.com/opinion/blogs/australias-poet-lorikeet-denis-kevans-megalong-gundangurra-werriberri

'Individual' : Please discard the error http reference above. What I wrote continues: Jump to the resilience of the Gurundjies who won higher wages and eventual landrights against the might of the pasturalists. And they could not have won, without the encouragement and guidance of Southern part-Aborigine activists who tutored them in the art of political struggle. Then came Charlie Perkins and other educated Aborigine activists who have devoted their lives to helping their people. By now nine indegenous politicians have served in the Parliament. I am particularly impressed by Pat Dodson, the late Eddie Mabo, Adam Goodes, Stan Grant and even Noel Pierson and more, who have demonstrated committed leadership for the upliftment of their people.

Gurundjies who won higher wages and eventual landrights against the might of the pasturalists.
Andris,
Have they taken over the pastoralists enterprise also & are now self-sufficient & no longer asking for Govt support ? Are they now paying themselves the higher wages ?
I'd be fully supportive of them if such efforts are indeed in place !
In our area, a lot of farm land has been handed back but the demand for funding projects & welfare is higher than ever.
Every time I hear Perkins mentioned I still see him sitting there with Lionel Rose at Manuka oval smoking Marihuana.

Dear Andris,

You have really had some wonderful and interesting
experiences. I envy your experience with our
Aboriginal people and communities.

A large portion of my experience came - working and living
in Los Angeles for close to ten years at the
University of Southern California. However I feel somewhat reluctant to say too
much on this public forum about myself because of the
personal attacks that can (and have) followed. Therefore
I prefer to remain under the cloak of anonymity. I hope
that you shall understand.

Take care. Stay safe.

Dear Individual. Let the historical, indigenous Makarrata perspective of the Ularu Statement From The Heart dissolve the ahistoric, impatiently self-rightous settler perspective, which blames the survivors of decades of abuse for slow progress in getting their act together. "It can be a negotiation of peace, or a negotiation and an agreement where both parties agree to one thing so that there is no dispute or no other bad feeling," says Ms Ganambarr-Stubbs.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-10/makarrata-explainer-yolngu-word-more-than-synonym-for-treaty/8790452

Thank you dear Foxy and the very best to you!

the ahistoric, impatiently self-rightous settler perspective, which blames the survivors of decades of abuse for slow progress in getting their act together.
Andris,
I'm glad you stated that because in North Qld it was Labor who bitterly complained about progress in the indigenous communities. They dissolved organisations which worked with the indigenous to achieve self-determination & flooded the communities with bureaucrats, sub contractors & opened the flood gates for all the con artists. Look at the show now ? The communities are now more dependent on Govt funding than ever before & the reason why it is so costly is because most of the funding goes back South in the pockets of the afore-mentioned ! Labor politics & policies have severely dented if not totally arrested progress there !

Individual. I have no illusions about the ALP re Aborigine progress. I hoped as Whitlam came to power that at last then there would be effective policies empowering Aborigine self determination. But my experiences in the NT after Whitlam came to power shocked me and lead me to the conclusion that Labor in fact caused catastrophic deterioration of the Aborigine communities in the NT by mindless massive handouts which were supposed to be for self-determination projects, which however, were poorly planned and without any financial accountability. So much of the thoughtless handouts further worsened the already catastrophic alcohol problems in Aboriginee communities with concommitant worsening of domestic violence and hopelessness. I wanted to write a book then about how the road to hell was paved with good intentions on the part of Labor. I was given funding by pasturalists to support my project, but I returned the money, because my intention was to contribute to genuine Aborigine self-determination whereas the pasturalists were keen to return to keeping the status quo and prevent the granting of Aborigine land rights that would have resulted in the pasturalists losing some of the good stolen land. Nevertheless, the current Left seems to be far more interested in genuine reconciliation with the Aboriginees than the Right. See Keating's Redfern speech, Rudd's apology to the Stolen Generation, Labor's current commitment to the Ularu Staatement From The Heart as distinct from the Coalition's resistance towards empowering Aboriginees in spite of the fact that we have an Aboriginee minister supposedly in charge of Aboriginal Affairs.

Andris,
I agree with much of what you say however, my personal exposure & experiences lead me to believe that self determination is still in the impossible basket collectively. Individually, some Aborigines have what it takes but they're held back by their own & by the hypocritical forces of the Left who really don't want them to succeed as that would prevent too many Public Service careers. Do not for one moment forget that Labor (Left) depends on disunity & unequal distribution of common wealth as they are not part of the revenue producing side of society !
Sadly, the indigenous are hoodwinked at an early age in school & that's all the Left needs to continue on its insidious path ! Unfortunately for the young, the older people who still remembered pre-Labor times, are no longer around to open the eyes of the young !
How can we help the Aborigines when they're not enabled to progress at the pace that suits them ? They have been pushed & shoved by the hypocritical do-gooders who only have their own interests in mind !
Their "dedication" to work for the betterment of society only extends as far as their pockets.

individual: 'How can we help the Aborigines..?' By education to grasp the best of their history and the best in modernity. Stan Grant, Adam Goodes, Yvonne Goologong are shining examples. Aborigines, and us, need to learn critical thinking, so that we can discern truth from hubris. Self determination is crucial as an objective especially for denigrated sections of society. It is a slow and difficult process when the starting point is so much disfunction. But it must be the objective for dignity and to realise the Au dream of 'fair-go' for all.
The maximisation of getting Aborigine children to schools and helping them bilingually where appropriate is critical. From basic education, pride in their history and identity, to more tertiary education and good trade skills and to learning management skills to lead their people in their own hybrid ways are important. The maximisation of Aborigine leadership and accountability is critical. We need to listen to, not looking down on them. Aborigines have much to be proud of in their history:love of country, deep spirituality, tracking, medicine, bush tucker and fire management skills, etc. which we should admire and learn from them.
We need patience and remind ourselves that Rome was not built in a day. Where I live the initial policy of banning the use of native languages managed to make almost all Aborigines lose their Gundungurra language over a few short decades, a beautiful tongue that was spoken before probably for 60 thousand years! We hve no right to get on the high horse when our own'modernity' failed them. The intergenerational mass that now has been seeded by our settler predecessors in the first place and we still do not properly listen to even to the best minds amongst Aborigines. The Aborigine languages are not only rich and magnificent but some of them may be even more sophisticated that many of our modern languages. Lets do more listening and learning and helping and chuck out the noisy centuaries long tradition of put-downs.

Andris: "Aborigines have much to be proud of in their history:love of country, deep spirituality, tracking, medicine, bush tucker and fire management skills, etc. which we should admire and learn from them."

What are you going on about? There is next to nothing that we can learn from the aborigines. Western knowledge surpasses traditional aboriginal knowledge in just about every field. A point by point break down of the above:

1) history: Aborigines never invented writing so their own historical knowledge prior to European settlement beyond a few centuries back is extremely scant (basically it is non-existent). Indeed, most of what we know about aboriginal history exists because 1) Europeans wrote down what they saw when they first came here a few centuries ago and continued to document it until the modern day, and 2) for before that time we've used modern archaeological techniques to reconstruct plausible/probable scenarios about their lifestyles and history.

2) love of country: this is a very ambiguous term. If by it you mean an appreciation of the complexity of the living environment then this is nothing unique to aboriginals. Modern biologists commonly have similar sentiments. Indeed western science's understanding of this complexity far exceeds what the aboriginals ever knew.

3) spirituality: well this is just a nonsense- you can't demonstrate to existence of a "spiritual" element of nature. The environment just is what it is- nothing more nothing less. And the only attributes/elements of it that exist are those things that you can detect, ie: those things that can be scientifically measured in some way.

4) tracking: using western knowledge we can track animals over extremely vast distances with great precision. Scientists do this all the time. For example, we've tracked the migration paths of individual whales over 10s-of-thousands-of-kms. No traditional aboriginal method of tracking could ever achieve this.

-- continued below --

-- from above --

5) medicines: Do you think that traditioanl aboriginals even had the slightest understanding of the internal machinery of plants, animals and other life forms. Do you really think that they were aware that living things are composed of cell(s)? Do you think that they knew what bacteria are? Or what a genetic disorder is? Our understanding of how our bodies work is immeasurably superior than that of the aboriginals. Indeed, a perfect example of just how deep our understanding is is the present pandemic: western science has already created multiple vaccines for it. When the drug companies created these vaccines they didn't seek ancient advice/wisdom from some aboriginal elder in a remote community about how to do it- instead they consulted/employed university educated people with PhDs.

6) bush tucker: Modern biologists have classified and studied thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of Australian species. And because our society has developed writing we can pass this knowledge on effortlessly from person to person. We have libraries chock-full of these books. Here's one: http://web.library.uq.edu.au/locations-hours/biological-sciences-library. Also, because of the scientific method we've created vast amounts of knowledge about chemistry, bio-chemistry, physiology and other fields. The combination of this biological and chemical knowledge allows us to understand toxicity and nutrition at a foundational level and thus western science has vastly more knowledge about what foods are edible or not and their nutritional value.

7) fire management: because of we've developed advanced maths we can describe the physical world not just with word images like people from less developed societies did but with quantifiable relationships (these relationships are usually expressed as formulas). Such mathematical descriptions of fuel loads and fire risks surpasses anything the aboriginals understood. Our amazing ability to take accurate data measurements of surface topology and fuel loads and the current wind/temp/humidity, combined with the processing power of our computers even allows us to model the progress of fires in real time.

Oops, in the above "surface topology" should be "surface topography".

I stated earlier that I agreed with much of what Andris stated. I also agree even more with thinkabit's words.
Here we have two views on a situation for which we all want to see a solution but never seem to find one.
Andris's posts clearly show an idealist view whereas thinkabit clearly shows a realist perspective.
One is a wish list, the other other a summary !
I can't get any clearer than that !
Rewriting history will make things worse & merely perpetuate the problems, preventing a repeat will only get up the heckles of those who constantly blame others for their own short-comings !
Solution ? Change the top brass in the Education system & create a National Service !
Leading by example is the best tactic to achieve unity !

Thinkabit: You claim: 'There is next to nothing that we can learn from the aborigines. Western knowledge surpasses traditional aboriginal knowledge in just about every field' Really? 1 History: Writing is recent invention. 99% of history has been passed on through oral transmission. The Aboriginees did this for 60 thousand years. Their hundreds of languages are no less sophisticated than Western languages. Through oral tradition the Aborigines developed extraordinary skills and knowledge as to how to live with nature in harmony. Our ignorant West is scrambling to recover such knowledge now, having nearly destroyed the planet through our unsustainable civilisation. 2 Love of country: I mean the extraordinary sensitivity to, belonging to, care and management of every nook and cranny of this vast continent and its fauna, also enshrined in their sacred sites, totems, rituals and stories. They lived with nature vs destroying it. 3 Spirituality. Einstein says: “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.” He asserted that his scientific insights stemmed from his spiritual revelations. The Aborigines' 'dreaming' was to infuse their nature derived spiritual wisdom into their day to day living. Western Quantum science tries to catch up with the ancient wisdom-insights inherent in nature and its Aborigine people. 4 Tracking: Aborigines need no GPS satellites to find their way in country. Their scientific observational skills are extraordinary and enabled the newcomers to find their ways and survive here. 5 Medicine: We introduced measle that nearly wiped them out and now we are wiping out ourselves with Covid 19 and its coming successors. Our high tech medicine is trying ever more vainly to save us from ourselves. 6 Bushtucker: Their vast knowledge of bush tucker was passed on through the oral tradition and was expanded over their long history. We are still learning new things from them. Fire management: To save ourselves we are at last trying to return to the Aborigines' burn off tradition.

Dear Andris,

Beautifully put!

Thank You.

Individual: The perspectives you refer are not realistic. They perpetuate the destructive misunderstanding of reality starting with the invaders. There is nothing realistic about 1 discounting the wisdom inherent in the surviving remnants of ancient Aborigine tradition, 2 in denial of the crimes committed against the entire Aborigine traditional society and 3 of the newcomers' primal responsibility for their devastation and disintegration, and 4 in continuing to blame the Aborigines for the mass they have been finding themselves in. Take for example, how the primal initial devastation of Aboriginee societies is looked over in blaming the victimising victims in the domestic violence situations of Aborigines. First of all, domestic violence is shocking amongst non-Aborigines too, with women dying daily. Secondly, mainstream society's responsibility for the the violence committed against Aboriginees which in turn bred domestic violence amongts them with the victims becoming victimisers of their own people, is consistently denied.
The vicious cycle is continued by the punitive incarceration of Aborigines without any serious rehabilitation programs. This leads to deaths in custody and further criminalises receidivists who could be best rehabilitated outside jail in Aboriginee run programs. Aborigene leaders, such as Neil Pearson, were intrumental in beginning to organise native communities to get their children to school in the NT and stay in school through offering them innovative and engaging school programs. Practical idealism does not deny reality but sets out to transform it to solve problems rather then giving up and continuing to spread the ideology of gloom and doom. Power to the emerging Aborigine leaders!

Andris,
I respect what you're saying but I'm also wondering that by your words the Aborigines are superior in many ways so, how is it that they aspire so openly to western standards ?
I haven't as yet heard of a clan reverting to these apparently wonderful ways let alone clearly & openly desiring to do so ? They own much country yet so many favour living in western cities & demanding western life styles.
Could it be due the fact that most who identify with indigenous heritage are too far removed from that heritage to live that life style & culture ? Could their lighter than our skin not be tolerant of the conditions in the country ?
As I see it, you're seeing what you want to see rather than what really is !

Individual: Will you heed Noel Pearson: 'WHEREAS THREE STORIES MAKE AUSTRALIA:

the Ancient Indigenous Heritage which is its foundation, the British Institutions built upon it, and the adorning Gift of Multicultural Migration:

And whereas Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the First Nations of the Australian continent and its islands, possessed under ancient laws and customs, according to the reckoning of culture, from the Creation, according to the common law, from time immemorial, and according to science for more than 65 millennia. This is a spiritual notion: the ancestral tie between the land, or mother nature, and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain attached thereto, and must one day return thither to be united with their ancestors. We recognise and honour the First Nations who discovered Australia as their sovereign possession, the oldest continuing civilisation in the world.

And whereas those who sailed the First Fleet landing at Sydney Cove carried upon their shoulders the common law of England, when the sovereignty of the British Crown was proclaimed. The rule of law, parliamentary government and the Australian English language have their provenance in Britain. From eyes on board ship, this was a settlement, and from eyes on shore, an invasion. We recognise the eve of the 25th and the dawn of the 26th January 1788 as a profound time for all of us, when Ancient Australia became the New Australia. We recognise and honour the Britons and Irish – convict and free – who founded our institutional heritage, making our Commonwealth from 1901, a great democracy of the globe.

And whereas peoples the earth over brought their multitude of cultural gifts to Australia. That we celebrate diversity in unity makes us a beacon unto the world.' (Second part to follow)

Andris,
from what I have gathered from the indigenous I conversed with, heeding Noel Pearson is not something they recommend !

Dear Andris,

This is for you:

" It isn't always easy to try to fit in
When even your name is considered a sin
When you're not a Smith or even a Jones
And saying your name makes some people groan

It's even worse if you're Chinese
You do get blamed for each disease
Heaven help you and that's a fact
If you happen to be Black

And if you have a different God
You're considered quite weird and rather odd
Or if your love doesn't fit the norm
You may regret you were ever born

Then of course there's our native people
Who some describe as being feeble
Who's to blame for this dilemma?
The White Man's Law and his systema.

Frankly though it's not too late
We can make changes and navigate
Righting the past in our Constitution
Would correct the history of total exclusion

Future generations will then grow up with pride
Able to take things in their stride
That's the way surrounded by sea
This big brown land is meant to be!"

Andris: Let's dig into your claim that aboriginals were knowledgeable of a solid 60,000+* years of their history via an oral tradition. To do this let's play a game. The rules of the game are really simple:

A)we'll take turns and name a past decade,
B)and from this decade we'll both list 6 historical facts that's truth is well established-
I'll concentrate on European History and you do Traditional Aboriginal History. I'll even allow you to consult any expert in aboriginal history or use any resource as along as it is traditional aboriginal history (not historical facts recorded by other cultures about aborigines). I'll start, here we go:

I nominate: 1700-1710 as the decade of interest

My facts are:
1) The Great Northern War between the Swedish Empire and Russia (plus other actors) was started in 1700 and raged for a couple of decades
2) Queen Anne became the ruler of a single state called Great Britain due to the unification of England and Scotland under the Acts of Union in 1707
3) Famine kills about 1/3 of East Prussia's population in 1708-1709
4) The Great Frost/The Great Winter of 1709: the coldest European winter for the last 500 years
5) Bach composed Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565 in 1704
6) The artist François Boucher was born in 1703

Ok, your turn. You simple have to supply 6 Historical Aboriginal facts for the decade 1700-1710 and then nominate another decade with another 6 facts.

I'm waiting,...

cont'd ...

Dear Andris,

I left out a few verses.

They come after -

"You may regret you were ever born"

"We've all heard of females and the glass ceiling
Breaking the glass will leave many reeling
There's also the disabled and the aged
The homeless, the drug addicts, and disengaged

Where are the leaders who simply dare
Show us and the country that they do care
To put policies in place
For the good of us all that we can embrace"

"Then of course there's our native people..."

And so on.

thinkabit,

You don't have to wait you can Google the information
for yourself. Put in Aboriginal History and the dates
you're after - Creative Spirits has quite a lot of
information as well as references that you can follow
up. Give it a try. Surprising what you can learn and
rewarding too when you do it for yourself.

Give it a go! Otherwise we can take it that you're only
stirring and believe that there was no Aboriginal history
until the white man came.

Noel Pearson continues: We recognise and honour our New Australians. When we renounced the White Australia policy, we made a better Commonwealth. We show that people with different roots can live together, that we can learn to read the image-bank of others, that we can look across the frontiers of our differences without prejudice or illusion.

NOW THEREFORE, with earnest and open hearts and strong desire to fill the lacuna, after more than two centuries, we make this Declaration of Australia and the Australian People, to see our reflections in each other, and recognise one and all:

Our history is replete with shame and pride, failure and achievement, fear and love, cruelty and kindness, conflict and comity, mistake and brilliance, folly and glory. We will not shy from its truth. Our storylines entwine further each generation. We will ever strive to leave our country better for our children.

We will honour the Uluru Statement from the Heart and make good upon it. Whilst English is the shared language of our Commonwealth, mother tongues name the country and sing its song-lines – and we do not want for them to pass from this land. They are part of the cultural and natural wonder of our country that is the campfire of our national soul, and the pledge of care and custody we owe our ancestral dead and unborn descendants.

After the battles of our frontier wars fell silent, diggers from the First Nations joined their Settler and New Australian comrades in the crucibles of Gallipoli, the Western Front and Kokoda, and there distilled the essence of our values:

That our mateship is and will always be our enduring bond.

That freedom and the fair go are our abiding ethic.

That our virtues of egality and irreverence give us courage to have a go.

That we know we can and always will count on each other.

Three stories make us one: Australians.'

Amen to this!

stirring and believe that there was no Aboriginal history until the white man came.
Foxy,
No-one's saying that. It just wasn't like the versions we're being told now. Just like any other race, the Aborigines too evolved over millennia & due to their isolation simply have not been as exposed to the opportunities of "Progress' as the Neanderthals or Hobbits or any other ancients !
Looking at the drug-ridden no-hopers & the indoctrinated gits in Western society, it'd be a good thing for many to revert to short legs & long arms ! At least the Banana farmers would do well.
And, yes I believe Darwin was on the money !

Dear thinkabit,

What a cretinous proposition.

So you want to compare a society with the written word to that with a long tradition of communal oral history?

Out of a thousand Europeans how many would be able to recite your long list of facts. They would really only be derived by the few bothering to delve into the history books.

Here is the Boon Wurrung story regarding the filling of Port Phillip bay:

“This large plain was covered in buath and tarrang biik on which the Boon Wurrung men hunted guyeem and barramaeel. The bagurrk cultivated the murnong. They collected food from the wurneet and the warreeny and harvested the iilk that migrated through there every year.

The Boon Wurrung were the custodians of their biik but traded with and welcomed people from other parts of the Kulin Nation. They obeyed the laws of Bundjil, who travelled as an eagle, and Waang who travelled as a crow.

One day – many, many years ago – there came a time of chaos and crisis. The Boon Wurrung and the other Kulin nations were in conflict. They argued and fought. They neglected their biik. The native murnong was neglected. The animals were over killed and not always eaten. The gurnbak were caught during their spawning season. The iilk were not harvested.

As this chaos grew the warreeny became angry and began to rise. The wurneet became flooded and eventually the whole flat plain was covered in baany. It threatened to flood their whole barerarerungar.

The people became frightened and went to Bundjil, their creator and spiritual leader. They asked Bundjil to stop the warreeny from rising.

Bundjil was angry with his people, and he told them that they would have to change their ways if they wanted to save their land. The people thought about what they had been doing and made a promise to follow Bundjil.

Cont..

Cont..

Bundjil walked out to the warreeny, raised his tjeera and directed the warreeny to stop rising. Bundjil then made the Boon Wurrung promise that they would respect the laws.

The baany never subsided but stayed to create a large bay that the Boon Wurrung called Nairm. Today it is known as Port Phillip Bay. The warreeny took away much of the biik of the Boon Wurrung and much of their barerarerungar was reduced to a narrow strip of coastline.

The Boon Wurrung learnt from their mistakes. They returned to their old values and the laws of Bundjil. They took greater care of the biik of Bundjil and the bubup of Bundjil.”
http://cv.vic.gov.au/stories/aboriginal-culture/nyernila/boon-wurrung-the-filling-of-the-bay-the-time-of-chaos/

The scientific date for this was only recently been pegged to be about 1000 years ago. Stories like these are woven into the culture of the different tribes.

Early ethnographers found Victorian aboriginal children could name over 100 stars and constellations and had stories for most of them.

For you to sneer away with utterly uncharitable derision speaks far more to your agenda rather than acknowledging the power of oral traditions full stop.

Thank you all for your contributions.
STEELE REDUX: I deeply appreciate your comments, including your last two sentences to ‘thinkabit’ above.
Good on you ALAN B.
FOXY: many thanks for the poem and your constructive contributions. I’ll have a new article published at Starts at 60 about having my first grandchild, here: https://startsat60.com/author/andris-heks after 30 July, and on that date, by that evening, on https://www.facebook.com/startsat60au/. People can leave comments at either site and I will answer you Foxy. I am glad that my Hungarian first name Andris is also used in Lithuanian.
THINKABIT: I invite you for a different game:
Please stand in front of the mirror and imagine truly that in the mirror you see yourself as an Aborigine. You, as white thinkabit are now face to face with your alterego, the Aborigine thinkabit. Now looking into the eyes of that Aborigine, please repeat the following comments that you and some others made above: ‘There is next to nothing that we can learn from the aborigines. Western knowledge surpasses traditional aboriginal knowledge in just about every field.’’ Aborigines never invented writing so their own historical knowledge prior to European settlement beyond a few centuries back is extremely scant (basically it is non-existent).’
Please keep looking into your alterego’s eyes and continue: ‘There are two classes of blacks; the good ones that integrate, and the rabble that will never conform.'it is actually the truth!' It’s a class war!’'what's the difference between black and white', the difference being the word 'part'.
Thinkabit, are you still looking into the eyes of the Aborigine thinkabit? Then, please go on:
'And here I am, a poor little white boy speaking in colloquial language unacceptable. Speaking only the truth, in tongue of the commoners. And for that, round condemnation from the screeching classes.''Lying about ancestry to aid stirring up more conflict is not warranted either! Such hypocrisy is what causes history repeating!'

Now, please be the Aborigine thinkabit.
How do you feel on hearing all this?
Uplifted or denigrated?
Now please reply to your white alter ego.
Looking forward to hearing from you thinkabit.

Dear Andris,

I'll look your sites up after 30th July.

Congratulations Grandpa! Great news!
I'm also a Grandmother and know how you must
be feeling. My grandchildren are the joys of
my life.

In Lithuanian the name Andris is - Andrius.
It was my father's name. And is very dear to me.
My father passed away at the age of 52 in
Sydney (I grew up in Sydney) of a massive coronary.
Working double-shifts in a rubber factory eventually
got to him. He was an academic in Lithuania.
I miss him very much.

Foxy, did you yourself bother to look at the Creative Spirits website? Because I just did, http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/history/australian-aboriginal-history-timeline. The timeline they give only goes back to 1400, or in other words they admit that there is no real documented history before this time. And between 1400 to 1770 it lists only 8 events of history (yep you read that right, 370 years with just 8 facts!). And of those 8: 5 were records, made by foreigners (either European or Chinese) of aboriginal encounters, 2 were a facts the derived by archaeology (one about bone tool deposits linked to aboriginals working animal skins and another about dating a rock painting that had a picture of a Indonesian boat) and 1 was a general fact about there being trade of trepang (sea cumcumber/sea slags) between aboriginals and the Macassans. So not a single one was a fact recorded by an aboriginal!!

So guess what, it supports EXACTLY what I'm saying! That is, aboriginals had no in depth knowledge of their own history before white man's arrival and most of what exists today, exists either because 1)literate people wrote down what they saw and what has happened in the last couple of centuries, or 2) before that time we employed western techniques and technology to exact the details of the past.

However, what I'm not saying is that aboriginals don't have a history. Everything that exists has a history. For example, I have a large naturally formed rock in my garden. This rock has a history that would span millions and millions of years, but no-one knows what the history is. However we can use scientific methods to determine some of the things that have happened to it over time. It's the same with aboriginals and their history. Very, very little of their history was maintained by themselves, but we can use modern scientific methods to determine some of it.

So to recap: in almost all cases of their incontestable established historical facts/events, the aboriginals knowledge of it exists solely because because we (ie: people of modern times) unveiled it to them!

thinkabit,

As a student I had my work experience at the State
Library of Victoria in the AMPA Library (Art, Music,
and Performing Arts). I was given
to catalogue the Aboriginal Oral History Collection.
It was fascinating and went back for decades. As
Andris tried to tell you - their history was in the
main - oral. And the white settlers kept only what
suited them and made them look good. Why is that so hard
for you to understand and grasp?

Surely you can't seriously believe that they had no history
until the white man came? If that's what you believe then
I guess - nothing I say will change your mind and there's
no point in continuing this conversation. All I can
suggest politely is that you do a bit more research.
And Creative Spirits does go into some greater depth if you click
onto the appropriate references. They do go back quite a way.

cont'd ...

Also, if you're really interested you can always
go into either your State Library or your Local
Municipal Library and ask for the help of a librarian.
They'll be glad to steer you in the right direction.

ABC's Landline this afternoon was about Archaeologists checking camp sites & Trepang curing stations in the Far North of WA. One of the indigenous women said she was sure they had amiable relations with the Maccassans.
It is recorded that as late as the 1870"s, the Maccassans had violent conflicts with the indigenous, mostly because of Aborigine women having been abducted & also because of commodities the Indigenous desired.
It certainly does not appear to have been as harmonious as some academic historians are trying to portray.

Foxy:/"Surely you can't seriously believe that they had no history until the white man came?"/

No, I've never said they "had no history that they knew until the white man", I've said they had scant or next to none. The did have some history but compared to what complex cilvilized societies have recorded about their (the complex societies') histories it is negligible. Indeed, it is still negligible when you compare the amount of history that non-traditional-aboriginals (ie. folk since 1788) have recorded or ascertained about the aborigines.

A perfect example of the deficiency of oral histories is the story that SteelRedux provided. In this story there is basically one historical fact being detailed, namely: Port Philip bay was created by a flood.

Now, what's really interesting about this story as a conveyor of historical fact is:

1) how inefficient it is: it is about 400 words (a quick guesstimate by me) and in describes just the one fact which I've recounted in 7 words.

2) how bereft of detail it is: it doesn't say when or how long it took, or why it occurred (actually it does give a why- according to it, it was the result of inter-tribal conflict and bad behaviour, but I'll accept that this is really a morality instruction myth mixed with a history and won't treat this as though it is meant to be taken literally)

3) To verify or establish exactly which event the story is talking about SteelRedux himself had to defer to modern scientific knowledge. In his own words, "The scientific date for this was only recently been pegged to be about 1000 years ago."

4) It is factually WRONG. Although I'll be generous and give them some points anyway because Port Philip Bay did form by rising waters but it wasn't a flood but rather sea level rise.

-- continued below --

Now, compare this oral history of the formation of Port Philip Bay, with modern "white-man" established history.

[Ok. Let's see what we can find out about Port Philip Bay. Hmm, a quick google search will do it....and, what do you know there is a Wikipage devoted to it.]

So on this page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Phillip, there are about 1500 words devoted to the history of the place and EVERY SINGLE SENTENCE contains at least one fact!!

Here just a snippet- it's the very first paragraph about its prehistory (where I've added numbers to count the individual micro facts):

"(1)Port Phillip formed between the end of the last Ice Age around 8000 BCE and around 6000 BCE, (2)when the sea-level rose to drown what was then the lower reaches of the Yarra River, vast river plains, wetlands and lakes. (3)The Yarra and other tributaries flowed down what is now the middle of the bay, (4)formed a lake in the southern reaches of the bay, dammed by The Heads, subsequently pouring out into Bass Strait"

And remember, this is just one webpage of history about the bay. If we examined the whole corpus of our knowledge there would be gazillions of facts! And that's gazillions of facts about just ONE bay.

thinkabit,

There's an entire collection of material on the
history of Indigenous Australians available for
you to find on the web, in libraries and museums.
There's a history of indigenous Australians in
Wikipedia, if you prefer. Or you can Google
Aboriginal early history. If you Google the
Australian Museum they have information dealing
with Aboriginal people of coastal Sydney - where
Indigenous people lived around the coast and
estuaries of Sydney. There's the Port Jackson
Archaeology Project - and these include written
descriptions, oral histories and much more.

All you need it the time, effort, and willingness
to seek and you shall find. Anyway, have a nice
evening - and good hunting for information. I hope
that you shall at least make a go at it. That's how
we learn and grow.

Foxy you're simply not understanding what I'm saying. I don't deny that aboriginals have a history! And I don't deny that we now have an understanding of some of that history. BUT the point is, is that it is predominately non-traditional-aboriginals whose have established the vast majority of facts that we know about it.

For example, I just skimmed over the Indigenous Australian Wikipedia that you recommended. And guess what; to me it certainly seems that it accords precisely with the argument I'm making. Indeed, here is the first paragraph of its History section:

"Several settlements of humans in Australia have been dated around 49,000 years ago.[63][64] Luminescence dating of sediments surrounding stone artefacts at Madjedbebe, a rock shelter in northern Australia, indicates human activity at 65,000 years BP.[65] Genetic studies appear to support an arrival date of 50–70,000 years ago.[66]"

So, if this is traditional aboriginal knowledge then paint me yellow and call be big-bird. Because I've sneaky suspicion that the "luminescence dating" and the "genetic studies" that it mentions are a consequence/product of modern western science knowledge. But not only that, did you know that aboriginals never had numbers like 49,000 or 65,000? They simply never needed nor ever used nor ever even thought about specific numbers that large.

I also strongly suspect your suggested "Port Jackson Archaeology Project" will be also be the same. Why? Well, the clue is in part of the name: "Archaeology", ie. using modern western scientific methods to reconstruct details of the past!

Many thanks Foxy for your new contributions.

It's crystal clear by now THINKABIT and INDIVIDUAL that behind all the APPARENT arguments you advance is your attitude of deep contempt for Aborigines, in particular their ancient history.

It is pointless to bring facts to your attention because as long as you cling to this underlying attitude of contempt, you will be simply unmotivated to adjust your views according to facts. You simply filter whatever you hear to cling to your prejudices.

Alas, we all do this to some extent, but what is important to me is to be aware of my prejudices and not to allow myself to become their puppet.

Neither of you seem to have the slightest desire to reverse with Aborigines and consider how your consistent belittling of their culture and dignity affect them, so THINKABIT I might have wasted my time above in inviting you to stand in front of a mirror.

May both of you find peace within yourselves without the need to disrespect and denigrate others.

Foxy: What a tragedy about your Dad's premature death.
Pity his academic qualifications were not accepted here?

In 1964 when my mother, sister and I came to Sydney, my sister's first Uni. year of Medicine in Hungary was accredited to her at Sydney Uni.

Alas, I also lost my father prematurely in Hungary as a teenager, just before we came here.
He died of massive lung cancer resulting from heavy smoking.

He worried and smoked himself to death fearing that the Communists would confiscate his private practice as a medical doctor.

He did not lose his practice but he lost his life:

https://startsat60.com/opinion/blogs/i-remember-whistling-along-as-my-father-played-his-fiddle

https://startsat60.com/opinion/blogs/nostalgia-the-day-my-father-died

https://startsat60.com/opinion/blogs/nostalgia-religion-losing-my-faith

of deep contempt for Aborigines, in particular their ancient history.
Andris,
You're nothing but an agitator who is exploiting complex issues ! You misrepresent every word that is being said. You use oral past when it suits to veil modern failures & you exploit hindsight when it suits to highlight past fact !
It's because of people with your degree of hypocrisy that the indigenous are at this stage.
People like you make the worst historians because you see everything with hindsight, not in the context of an era.
You mean well but by doing so you create more problems just so you can feel good & benefit.
You obviously haven't a clue & I find it offensive in the extreme to be accused of contempt by a parasite who clearly has deep contempt for the Nation that put you up & feeds you !
You're a hypocrite !

Individual.

Thank you for explaining to me who I am.

I rest my case.

Good Afternoon Andris,

Thank You for the links and for sharing your father's
death. You write beautifully and your experience
brought back so many memories of my own father's
sudden passing. My husband and I were touring Canada
at the time when we received the phone-call that he'd
died. I remember the numb feelings very well. And still
do.

The pain we feel for familiar things that all too often in
a flash bring back glimpses of days past
And then I remember him
But with difficulty for he has not been gone long

The memory is clear and always sweet
The grey at his temples that turned white so quickly
people said
His joy at his privacy able to forget briefly his daily bread

Giving
Above all else I remember the giving
The smile, the talk, the laugh are all things that linger
with moments shared now remembered

But the giving will be his epitaph
"Give and you shall receive" words etched in sweat
on my father's grave

Now so much more than the words remain.

Hi Foxy,

Your generous Dad clearly lives on in you.

Hi Andris,

Thank You for your kind words.

I'm sure that my father is watching over me.
Like I'm sure yours is over you.

Eternal rest grant to them, O Lord
And let perpetual light shine on them
May they rest in peace.
Amen.

Andris:/It is pointless to bring facts to your attention because as long as you cling to this underlying attitude of contempt, you will be simply unmotivated to adjust your views according to facts./

Do you know that the word "hypocrisy" is? If not then what you wrote above is an perfect example from which you can fathom its meaning.

Contrary to what you wrote above, I've pointedly asked for you to bring your historical facts to the the debate. But you have not produced one single fact.

Look, I'll even ask once again for some:
All you have to do to convince me that the traditional aboriginals were cognizant of their ancient history is produce (let's not make it too hard for you so I won't ask for too many), 10 historical facts that they knew from (again let's take it easy on you and give you plenty of range to chose from) say 10,000 to 60,000 years ago. That's a mere 10 facts over a 50,000 year range! If the aboriginals where such the avid historians that you claim they were then that should be piss easy.

Now, just to show you that it is possible to present such historical facts I'll give you 10 that modern western science has determined:
1) 49,000 : Archaeologists find the earliest known use of ochre in Australia and south-east Asia and bone fragments of extinct megafauna, including the diprotodon, at the Warratyi rock shelter in the northern Flinders Ranges, SA, in the traditional lands of the Adnyamathanha people.
2) 43,000 : ‘Mungo Man’ (also known as Lake Mungo 3 human remains, or LM3), a hunter gatherer who lived in western NSW. His skeleton is the oldest known remains in Australia.
3) 37,000 : Papuan and Aboriginal groups split, long before the continents are finally cut off from each other (around 8,000 years ago)
4) 35,000 : Age of a oldest known camping site found in the Pilbara region, Western Australia, near the Jugaling Rock Shelter.

-- continued below ---

-- from above --

5) 30,000 : Devils’ Lair in southernmost Western Australia is home to Aboriginal people who leave bone tool artefacts, including unique bone-beads of split-pointed macropod shin bones
6) 28,000 : Age of a charcoal drawing found at Narwala Gabarnmung, in the Northern Territory, assumed to be Australia’s oldest known rock art specimen and one of the earliest examples of human art on the planet
7) 22,000 : Aboriginal people living at Malangangarr in Arnhem Land, Northern Territory, use ground-edge grooved axes
8) 18,000 : Art at Ubirr in Kakadu National Park (Northern Territory, 300 kms east of Darwin) depicts now extinct animals, the Thylacine (Tasmanian tiger), and Zaglossus (the long-beaked echidna).
9) 16,000 : Hearths, stone and bone tools, Shaws Creek near Yarramundi (60 kms north-west from Sydney), NSW.
10) 13,000 : Land bridges between mainland Australia and Tasmania are flooded. Tasmanian Aboriginal people become isolated for the next 12,000 - 13,000 years.

The Toba eruption would have contributed to or even kicked-off the occupation of what is now known as Australia. Subsequent rises of sea level then put a stop to the migration & the further development of the occupiers. New Guinea had obviously continued to progress going by their culture & building of houses etc. Some Pacific island also had more advanced dwellings & agriculture in comparison to Australia. Similarly on other continents. It appears that Australia was totally isolated for thousands of years from the outside world and, the vastness of this continent also contributed to much isolation within.

This discussion has made for interesting reading. On the one hand there are those that seek nothing more than the truth, Andris and others thankyou for that. For some truth telling establishes an uncomfortable environment where recognition of the past leads to Aboriginal claims of sovereignty and all that ensues, very uncomfortable for some.

Thank you PAUL, spot on.

FOXY, indeed "Give and you shall receive". So, I'll ignore the 'hypocrat' stigmatisation.

In a sense the term is valid: my position THINKABIT and INDIVIDUAL belies yours.
I admire thinkabit your persistence and assiduous research.

I think there are at least two assumptions on your part that lead you astray.

One, is your failure to grasp the enormity of the gift ancient Aborigines spirituality has to offer to Australia.

Two, your preoccupation about how far today's Aborigines can remember back to the ancient Aborigines wisdom.

Why does this latter interest you so much? Or, why is it so crucial for you?

Will you kindly look into that mirror and ask yourself, where do I come from?

What am I trying to prove?

That I (you) am superior to Aborigines and that they should be grateful for the invasion because without it they would still be living in Dark Stone Age primitiveness?

Am I misrepresenting you thinkabit? I doubt.

You assume that our Western science based civilisation knows so much more than traditional Aborigines did. Really?

What do you know about their spirituality, in particular, 'dreaming'?

In your apparently ethnocentric and parochial perspective you deify Western Science and confuse western knowledge with wisdom.

You just can't seem to get it that human modelling and oral learning occured for hundreds of thousands, if not for millions of years, and that spirituality, which Western physical-material science cannot comprehend was perhaps seemlessly integrated with material living in the unwritten pre-history.

That the Aborigines knew that material existence stems from a causal spiritual basis and keeps returning to it in a cycle.

Quantum physics has only belatedly caught up with the fact that 'something' stems from the 'no-thing' of the spiritual realm and dies back to it.

What do you think the rainbow serpent paradigm is all about and its connection to 'dreaming'?

Could you grasp that the rainbow serpent spiritual paradigm has been around since time immemorial and has been seemlessly retained and passed on in the Aborigines wisdom tradition before modern science was even an idea?

Andris,
Are you saying that the Aborigines were in fact the first humans ?
How do you think other races developed from here on ?
What do think was the point where others as near as New Guinea advanced technologically yet in the Great South Land they remained static ? Or, did they go & conquered the Planet just as generations later they themselves were conquered by their overseas descendants ?
Interesting indeed !

>Two, your preoccupation about how far today's Aborigines can remember back to the ancient Aborigines wisdom. Why does this latter interest you so much? Or, why is it so crucial for you?

I was demonstrating to you that your claims are BS that's why I talked about it. Normally, it doesn't interest me much. I'm way more interested science and math than the arts.

>That I (you) am superior to Aborigines and that they should be grateful for the invasion because without it they would still be living in Dark Stone Age primitiveness?

I've never said that I'm superior to Aborigines. An aborigine is a human being just like I am. What I have clearly demonstrated is that common currently fashionable claims we hear and which you yourself have regurgitated about their level of knowledge in areas like medicine, the environment, etc. being greater than the knowledge established by western science are BS. So the claim that we have lots to learn (compared to the body of our current knowledge) from traditional aboriginal knowledge is BS. The claim that they have a deep and thorough understanding of their own history which they meticulously passed down through an oral traditional is BS. Also, the claims that their society is just a complex as ours in terms of internal groupings of people (ie, social structures like tribes/family units) and law and trade etc. are also BS (well I didn't mention this in this thread but am including it here anyway).

And as for your claims of quantum woo [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo] and spirituality they are BS too. One of us has actually studied university level physics and that one isn't you!

[PS: Oh, yeah, before I forget to mention: Homo sapiens (that's us modern humans in case you didn't know) have only been around for about 300,000 years so your claim "You just can't seem to get it that human modelling and oral learning occured for hundreds of thousands, if not for MILLIONS OF YEARS*..." is more BS. *capital letter emphasis added by me]

Individual: what you call 'static' is in fact being tuned into nature. Instead of busting themselves to conquer it, they developed ever more intimate connection with and knowledge of the land, so that the entire continent was taken care of by Au's multitude of nations.

They had no need to conquer and steal each others'land: when they faught, it was to settle tribal conflicts.Instead of materially acquisitive technologies designed to amass material possessions and wealth, the wealth they were interested in was close kinship relationships and affinity with land and the fauna and developing an ever richer spiritual-cultural,art, group dance, song and rhytm based lifestyles or 'technologies' of social living, where much of their times was spent on enacting celebratory rituals and stories.

They advanced alright, but that advancement was cultural-spiritual enrichment that left them contented without wanting or missing possessions and material advancement.

The danger is in projecting on them our material advance-based standards and then blaming them that they did not play ball when in fact, left to themselves their vision of a good life was vastly different from our materialism-attracted Western Societies.

This was similar in India, where for thousands of years there was little interest in materialism but there was an insatiable appetite for spiritual enlightenment.The Indian Yogis were mostly forest dwellers where they developed the discipline of Yoga by observing animal movements and the inner functioning of the mind. They developed the varius branches of Eastern philosophy which eat Western Philosophy for breakfast. The similarities between tantric kundalini, again focusing on the serpent power paradigm and the Aborigines central focus on the rainbow serpent and between Eastern Kirtan chanting-musical meditation and Aborigine corrobarees are striking.
Aborigine 'dreaming' which involved living a spiriually driven life through day to day activities, could be of enormous benefit to Australia now to try to fill our spiritual vacuum and help us to reset our lifestyles from our addiction to unsustanable economic growth which is killing the planet and climat and instead help us to develop more kinship and spiritually focussed interpersonal and personal lives.

They advanced alright, but that advancement was cultural-spiritual enrichment that left them contented without wanting or missing possessions and material advancement.
Andris,
You have some very interesting points albeit rather ideological ones. What & when do you think was the turning point that made them desire the goods & commodities of the outside World ?
I can only go back 45 years when I experienced my first contact with Aborigines & what I witnessed was a strong desire for non-indigenous goods & conditions to the point of having demonstrations with calls of discrimination & just straight forward demands for non-traditional everything !
My guess is that once people are exposed to new conditions & particularly commodities, the term 'traditional' becomes as diluted as the genes. In my view that is something only time can sort out. Good, bad or ugly, the past can not be changed however, depending on the gain possible some historical aspects are now so coloured-in that the true picture is no longer visible ! We are now at a stage where pretend indigenous people have to rely on this to bolster their claims, whilst the indigenous, like everyone else, just go on day by day !
I certainly would like any indigenous live their way they want to & are capable of instead of being used as pawns by the partially indigenous.

THINKABIT, you continue to deepen the hole of ignorance that you have so assiduously dug for yourself.

So you pride yourself in your knowledge of science and maths?

Then you ought to learn from Bertrand Russell who would strongly question your dogmatic and lopsided material determinism which demonstrate not only your failure to fathom the importance of arts but more imortantly also of spirituality in grasping the nature of reality.

You seem to be functioning exclusively from the robotic, unoriginal, rationality enslaved left brain.

But no matter how much encyclopaedic knowledge you accumulate, you lack wisdom that would stem from a well functioning right brain, which in your case seems to be sadly underfunctioning.

According to the emerging new integral, holistic scientists, without operating from a well integrated spiritual-rational perspective the nature of reality cannot be grasped. Please see my further exploring this here:

https://startsat60.com/stories/opinion/have-i-now-grasped-the-secret-of-happiness

and further here:

https://startsat60.com/stories/opinion/how-did-we-lose-the-plot

Please read and reflect on what I wrote in my above reply to Individual. No doubt you'll be further outraged.

I recommend that you read scientist Rupert Sheldrake's 'The Science Delusion' where he shows the utter failure of conventional physical science to grasp the nature of reality.

Further, read virtuoso pianist and world renowned systems-scientist, Ervin Laszlo's book 'What Is Reality?: The New Map Of Cosmos, on the new and valid scientific spiritual-material-integrated paradigm of the emerging holistic science.
Perhaps, if I may say so, these books could help you to see through and beyond your self-delusion, if you could only open your mind.

INDIVIDUAL.

The Aborigines were well aware of and had experience of other, including consumerist cultures, long before the invasion, such as
their extensive trade experience with and visitations from the Macassans.

But their traditional authority with its laws remained intact before they got dispossesd of their land, much of their culture and languages and before the missionaries also got down to the business of trying to rob them of their soul.

So prior to the invasion, the Aborigines chose to resist the temptation to transform themselves into a consumerist, possession and materialism worshipping society.

A critical factor in their becoming vulnerable to and many falling for the trappings of Western consumerism was the utter disintegration of their traditional authority structures in most Aborigine nations through and following the invasion and colonialisation.
(Yet this resistence is still continuing with a minority of Aborigines still stronly rooted in traditional culture, for example those who knocked back offers of lots of money in return for uranium mining on their sacred lands.)

Take a bird and put it in a cage where it can no longer forrige for food.
It will become utterly dependent on your feeding it.

So which is the primary cause of degradation here: the cage or the generated dependency?

What concerns me is your consistent denial of cause and effect here:

Their being put in a cage in the first place, the resultant intergenerational devastation of Aborigines and the continuation of dicrimination against them.

You blame 'would-be' and 'noisy Aborigines' for stirring up the 'real' Aborigines who would be ever so content to get on with their lives if only they would not be stirred up by such Southern pseudo-Aborigines.

Really?

Ask yourself: why do you direct your energy against those who wish to make Aborigines express their indignation about what has been and still being done to them and encourage them to stand up for themselves against the continuation of their oppression?

Why not recognise and condemn the still ungoing discrimination against Aborigines and demand a 'fair go'?

Continued in my next comment.

Dear Thinkabit,

Ah mate, up to your old tricks I see.

Selective quoting seems to be the way things are done now is it?

I said: “Here is the Boon Wurrung story regarding the filling of Port Phillip bay”

I concluded with: “The scientific date for this was only recently been pegged to be about 1000 years ago. Stories like these are woven into the culture of the different tribes.”

You then say:It is factually WRONG. Although I'll be generous and give them some points anyway because Port Philip Bay did form by rising waters but it wasn't a flood but rather sea level rise.”

Nowhere did I use the word form rather I specifically said 'filling'.

A filling event did occur about 1000 years ago. That event was contained within the stories of the tribes in the area. It has only relatively recently been fully confirmed by science.

That knowledge predated the European scientific 'validation' of it. Why is this an issue for you?

Thanks for the correction SteelRedux! Yes, that's right, I'm thanking you for correcting me! That's because I process claims to truth with an open mind and just like a working professional scientist when presented with authentic hard facts that discredit my claims I acknowledge it. Believers in the utility of the western scientific method are always prepared to retract their claims because that is the whole point of it. Scientists deliberately try to disprove their claims with real facts and observation. Unlike Andris who simply refuses to accept the facts.

So I've re-read the story and realised where I made my mistake. It's from this line: "The wurneet became flooded and eventually the whole flat plain was covered in baany.", where the "wurneet" is a word for river, but it does indeed say that it floods because the "warreeny", which is the sea, causes it to. I slipped up because of the sheer number of new-to-me aboriginal words confused me.

But everything else I said still stands. For example, you yourself deferred to western science's knowledge to verify the validity of their claims. And also that story telling oral traditions are a hopeless way to transfer large amounts of factual history because the each story doesn't convey many facts (this story had just one fact).

And example of how useless oral histories really are, consider your piece of trivia that aboriginal children could name 100 stars and constellations. Now that does sound impressive, but to put it in perspective I've this program which is a star-chart called KStars on my computer http://apps.kde.org/kstars/ . If you configure it right it can accurately display up to 100,000,000 stars! Now, do you really think that the aboriginals could ever have had the slightest chance to know the precise locations of and then invent unique stories for that many stars?

condemn the still ungoing discrimination against Aborigines and demand a 'fair go'?
Andris,
Examples please from your personal experiences of being part of a racial minority among indigenous people.
As for the contact with the Macassans, that was only a small number along the northern shores. This contact was not continent-wide.
The book By Flood & Field explains a few extra bits that are no longer in vogue to mention.
I don't know about others but I'm not trying to change a history in which today's society had no part in.
Be it oral or written, who are we to invent history to make ourselves feel better ? Even in my life-time I have read wrong reporting & un-factual hearsay !
Fake News are bad enough but to create Fake History by judging with the benefit of hindsight is even more unjust !

INDIVIDUAL,

Take Adam Goodes' story.

He was vilified and consistently booed off the field by a minority of racists while the football authorities allowed this disgraceful behaviour to continue.

And what was his 'crime'?
That he dared to call out racists who vilified him publicly and to assert his identity by performing an Aborigine warrior dance after he scored.

Though slowly but,' the times, they are a'-changing.'

Witness the Matildas posing with the Aboriginee flag at the Tokyo Olympics last night and the Socceroos doing the BLM salute today.

But consider how slow progress has been in Australia in comparison with NZ.

They made a treaty with the Maoris in 1840.

Where is ours?

And the warrior dance of the All Blacks has become a national tradition.

Contrast that with the crowds booing Goodes and the authorities’ initial apathy about this!

The above is one of numerous examples of continued present day discriminations. Add to this Eddie Macquire and Andrew Bolt's form and the maintaining of Australia Day celebration at the anniversary of Invasion, and the long list continues.

You ask: 'who are we to invent history to make ourselves feel better?'

Ask this from official historians who for over a centuary wrote a falsified Au history that was taught to generations of students and adults in the first place.
They ignored and minimised the reality of the first nations' 65 thousand years of Au history and they systematically airbrushed the reality of invasion, massacres and other atrocities committed against the Aborigines, out of Au's history books.

When Henry Reynolds and other respected historians fact-checked and began to write the truth, people like John Howard wanted to discredit them by calling them the 'black armband' brigade.

So again Individual, you put the horse before the cart: instead of acknowledging that the history that was told to Australians for over hundred years was full of lies in the first place and had to be re-written to tell the truth, you are concerned about whether the truthful re-writers of history should be doing their corrections.

Hi Andris,

The problem with the apologists and their "nothing to see here" attitude is very difficult to overcome. For modern day deniers genocide didn't really happen, any deaths among aboriginal people were unfortunate, regrettable, but accidental, besides aboriginal disadvantage is completely overblown by the new left who simply want to profit from some concocted 'Aboriginal Industry' where the greedy partake of a pot of gold thanks to the misplaced generosity of decent White Australians. How can they believe that, in Victoria alone the aboriginal population was reduced from 30,000 to 300 in about 70 years. The extent of the massacres of aboriginal people, the deaths from starvation and disease was completely hidden from view for over 150 years. Today, the disadvantage of aboriginal people through the 'Closing the Gap' report, and other studies is well known, yet some will still deny what is fact. The conservative side of politics can't bring themselves to a position of public recognition of past wrongs, so all Australians can move on and destroy the barriers that are dividing us.

Australia (Invasion) Day is symbolic of that division. Its like as if every Aug 6th an American plane was to be flown over Hiroshima and drop a dummy bomb, followed by a brass band parade down the main street, just to remind the Japanese of who won the war.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/the-killing-times-the-massacres-of-aboriginal-people-australia-must-confront

Thank you PAUL.

I think you are spot on as usual: I could not agree with you more.

What interests me is the underlying but unstated 'world views' as lenses through which we judge events and which make our responses quite predictable.

A stunning example of this can be seen in comparing the comments under this article on Barty and the 'Does BLM' discussion.

The same people emerge to make the core contributions and the basic values implicit there and here seem interchangably identical in nature.

I think behind the ultra-Right world view is the authoritarian personality, (also behind the ultra-Left) who perceives the world as if it was inevitably an arena of perpetual warfare, based on an assumed, unresolvable class war between top dogs and underdogs, between winners and losers.

To them this seems to be the truth and no facts will sway them because what is important to them is the victory of the 'truth' and lies are justified to make such 'truth' victorious.

To them those who advocate win-win justice for all, seem as hopeless idealists, hypocratic cretens; a fair game for bad-mouthing.

Please see my numerous articles on Trump here:

https://startsat60.com/author/andris-heks

such as this:

https://startsat60.com/media/opinion/bloggers/the-fat-lady-has-sung-trumps-moment-of-truth

STEELREDUX: I also want to thank you for your brilliant contributions.

At least THINKABIT is willing to recognise that he is wrong on certain 'tangible' facts.

Pity, that he seems to be unable to access 'depth facts' relating to spirituality.

To him Aborigine kids being able to name hundred stars and constellations without books seems to be a 'trivial' fact!

Please see:

https://startsat60.com/stories/opinion/have-i-now-grasped-the-secret-of-happiness

and further here:

https://startsat60.com/stories/opinion/how-did-we-lose-the-plot

They made a treaty with the Maoris in 1840.
Andris,
By that time the Maoris had already silenced the indigenous & were advanced enough to get the meaning of a treaty !

INDIVIDUAL.

Are you aware that once again you belittle the Aborigines in your statement that the Maories 'were ADVANCED ENOUGH to GET the MEANING of a treaty?'

Was lack of advancement why the Aborigines were never offered such treaty to this very day?

Their lack of advancement or our lack of justice?

But Individual, you said that we should not try to re-write history.

Andris,
Since when is stating fact belittling ? Advanced is an English language term for any living cell that has developed past the stage of grazing i.e. made tools, shelter & generally plan for the next day.
Some, as the Westerners, the Chinese (for the 2n or even 3rd time now) the Greeks the Egyptians, the Aztecs, the Incas & Mayas etc etc. have advanced to a point where they lost control of their success. The Aborigines & others will be in the next lot to go through this cycle.
Yes, rather belittling, in your idealistic dream world !

Dear INDIVIDUAL.

You ask: 'Since when is stating fact belittling ?'

The 'fact' you claim is not a fact:

For example, they did have simple tools and high precision hunting equipment; finely prepared spears used with expert skills for hunting with amazing accuracy to spear fish.

They also knew from years of accumulated knowledge, where to hunt for what, what bush tuckers were in abundance where and when.

Your narrow concept of what constitute progress and civilisation was utterly irrelevant and contrary to their nature attuned civilisation.

They required minimal possessions so that they could move around efficiently in their walk about life style.

Why did they not go on to horses, carts etc?

You can't appreciate that for their treasured life-style, these would have been hindrances not advances.

Have you ever gone for a beautiful bush-walk for a day?

Feel your lungs expand with fresh air, your mind cheered by the smell of eucalypt, your eyes amazed by the intricacy of bush flowers, your thirst quenched with fresh springwater?

You might have caught a few fish and BBQed them on a simple stone bed? And you felt stronger from the good walk in nature and you felt, just for a few hours at least, to be part of nature and nurtured by it?

Can't you undertand that their civilisation here (65.000 years or so) valued simplicity and communion with nature so much that the last thing they wanted was to 'fix' that which was NOT broken?

Their enormous achievement was in the preservation of a civilisation which sustained them for longer than any other civilisation that had existed on earth.
www.history.com/news/dna-study-finds-aboriginal-australians-worlds-oldest-civilization

I have described this to you before and to thinkabit, but both of you seem to be able to see'progress' only in material terms.

Having lived with traditional Aborigines for the purpose of comparing their cilvilisation to others, civilisations expert, Dr E.Nandisvara Nayake Thero concludes that the Australian Aborigines are 'one of the most civilised and cultured of all peoples in the world today.'
(See: 'Shamanism' by Nicholson P 233)

Hi Andris,

I believe some are falling into the trap of confusing materialism with civilization. Are we today more civilized than the Ancient Greeks? Material wise we are certainly more advanced, we can put a man on the Moon, they could not, but it does not mean we are more "civilized". Little known fact, when the Barbarians sacked Rome they stopped the practice of feeding people to lions in the Colosseum, they believed it to be uncivilized. I consider the Buddha to be one of the most civilized humans to ever live, a man of virtually no material possessions, yet extremely civilized in my view, and he lived two and half thousand years ago in a time when material advancement around him was negligible compared to today. Civilisation is in the mind, not in the hands.

Andris,
You're painting an untrue picture !

Hi PAUL,

I agree with you comletely. The same civilisation expert I quoted above explores his view on Aborigines further:

“To those who judge the degree of (a) culture by the degree of (its) technological sophistication, the fact that the Australian natives live in the same fashion now as they did thousands of years ago may imply that they are uncivilized or uncultured.

However, I would suggest that if (a) civilization be defined (by) the degree of polishing of an individual’s mind and the building of his or her character, and if that culture (reflects) the measure of our self-discipline as well as our level of consciousness, then the Australian Aboriginals are actually one of the most civilized and highly cultured peoples in the world today.” E.Nandisvara Nayake Thero

He can be Googled where he elaborates the facts he found that back up his claim.

Hi Andris,

Its interesting how the European, for us particularly the British, viewed other cultures. From the Age of Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries the British were fascinated by the material achievements of others, they carted enough of it off back to England, but still regarded such cultures and civilisations as inferior, as they lacked that British "refinement". An example, other religions fascinating as they were, still they were inherently wrong, and in realty had to be replaced with the superior Christian religion, it was a god given mission of the European to do so. Cultural practices were also of interest, but again inferior and in need of replacement. Indigenous people were seen as being at the bottom rung, either complete savages, or childlike creatures in need of salvation, and the British with their high minded attitudes were the right people to do it. The fact there were material spin offs for the colonisers was, well, it was not the primary motivation so they would say. This attitude of European superiority continued well into the 20th century.

Hi Paul, yes, the famous 'white man's burden'.

A powerful evidence to back what you are saying is the history of the British East India company, one of the, if not the biggest imperialist ventures in history.
Not unlike the invaders' arrogance in Australia.

I watched this brilliant doco and gasped.
It can be watched until the 17th of August.

All apologists ought to watch this as a wake up call:

https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/489515075553