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The Forum > Article Comments > What happens if we lose religious freedom? Here’s what few people realise > Comments

What happens if we lose religious freedom? Here’s what few people realise : Comments

By Akos Balogh, published 16/6/2021

Places such as Victoria have brought in laws that will effectively penalise Christian teaching around sexuality and gender.

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The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
Typical right wing hysterical rant but what else could you expect from a member of the pretentious "gospel" coalition.

The authors name has distinct similarities to the Balrog from the Lord of the Rings.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 8:44:23 AM
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"God ordains that they assume distinctive roles which reflect the loving relationship between Christ and the church, the husband exercising headship in a way that displays the caring, sacrificial love of Christ, and the wife submitting to her husband in a way that models the love of the church for her Lord."

When people believe this sort of thing how can they expect others to follow.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 9:28:01 AM
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All for "religious freedom", but the reality is that organised Christianity is already the most cosseted minority group in Australia, especially as regards federal government's overt and heavily-funded preference for church over state schools.

Churches will always remain free to teach against science, indoctrinate children, or prefer straight blokes to women and LGBTQ groups. These are not fringe beliefs, but central to the Catholic and Anglican dioceses of Sydney.
Posted by Steve S, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 9:30:03 AM
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No great revelation; we are gradually losing many freedoms, not just religious; and Marxists haven't finished with us yet. Forget "refugees": we have given up protecting ourselves and our own values. And if "a lot of people" coming here as "refugees" from religious persecution still think that they are persecuted in Australia, then they are paranoid and will never be happy, and, in all probability, are bringing their problems here with them. 'Persecution' is not just being unable to get everything you want all the time.

This is more a complaint on behalf of "refugees" than it is about Christianity. Let's have freedom from whingers who conned their way into our country under the "refugee" scam.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 9:49:50 AM
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I'm sorry, but, religious freedom never gave anyone the right to believe folk had a choice about the sexuality they were born with! Except where teachings/doctrine is misrepresented or misunderstood or misinterpreted?

Moreover, religious belief, whatever that is, is between you and your God! An unstable conviction that the world is, was flat never ever made it so! And peer-reviewed scientific revelations have identified at least two gay genes with three more possibles. Something these homophobes that claim the right to endlessly persecute difference, studiously ignore!

So-called religious freedom never ever included a right to persecute difference. No matter how personally repugnant that difference may be

And given gender reassignment, what do you know about those who worship beside you or partake in religious ceremony!

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Wednesday, 16 June 2021 12:33:43 PM
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Correction of a mischievous and vexatious auto-correct, unstable convection was written as unshakable convection.
Alan.
Posted by Alan B., Wednesday, 16 June 2021 12:39:16 PM
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The issue is of utmost importance, but there is a problem:
To secure religious freedom, one must first be able to identify correctly which acts are religious.

Religion is not determined by organised churches nor by books like the Bible, but by God - and God may call on different people at different times to perform different actions in His service, even in ways that our human minds cannot comprehend.

Only a prophet can tell whether a particular action of a particular person at a particular time was ordained by God, that too, only when God reveals His purpose to him/her.

Since no prophets are presently employed in the public service, nor are there real prospects in our age for any prophet to be available and willing to work for government, we should safely assume that government and legislators have no idea about religion, except possibly about their own personal religion.

Therefore, the only way to safeguard religious freedom, is to avoid taking away freedoms altogether, assuming for the benefit of the doubt, every action to be religious. The less government intervenes in our lives, the less likely they would be to obstruct religion and [attempt to] disturb God's work.

One could ask, "but what about the evil, should we allow their freedom too?". Well, if indeed God calls you to fight evil then you will know it without a shadow of doubt and humbly follow His instructions regardless of whatever I say - otherwise, God can take care of the evil Himself and does a better job of it than any human can imagine!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 3:44:32 PM
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"It's not alarmist to believe that we could lose meaningful religious freedom here in Australia, and much of the West, within the next 5 – 10 years. "

Well that's a lie, you better go pray.
Alarmist: someone who exaggerates a danger and so causes needless worry or panic.

Are you telling me you think the government is going to do a bible burning and bulldoze all the churches, mosques and synagogues?
- Can't see it happening, sorry -

Even if they did, you'd still be able to read your religious text at home (if you had another copy), and your still free to pray and have a relationship with your God.

What religious freedoms are you talking about losing exactly?
- The ones where you feel you're free to criticise others based ON YOUR OWN religious beliefs?

The right to say 'God hates Fags'
The right to say 'Infidels must die'
The right to separate 'Jews from Goyim'?

Religious freedom means you're free from being persecuted because of your religious beliefs;
- It doesn't mean your religion or the beliefs associated with it are free from criticism.

"Losing our religious freedom would impact some of the most vulnerable communities, namely refugees arriving in the West to escape oppression."

Refugees arriving in the West to escape oppression aren't communities.
- They're not even Australians, and certainly NOT OUR MOST VULNERABLE -
They're just refugees, and if they don't like how we do things they can always choose to go elsewhere.

"And so, if we're in a position to advocate for religious freedom – for the sake of our Muslim, Siek, Hindu neighbour as much as for our Christian neighbour – then shouldn't we take that opportunity while we still can?"

You have the freedom to advocate a completely religious world if you choose
- Just as I also have the freedom to advocate a world free completely from religion.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 4:43:32 PM
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Hopefully the only "freedom" you will loose is the right to discriminate against a whole group of people who don't swallow your clap trap about some invisible guy in the sky.
Posted by Aries54, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 6:04:36 PM
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Dear Critic,

Just hypothetically, suppose God had nothing better to do than to ordain certain people to say 'God hates Fags' or 'Infidels must die' (not only that, but explicitly to do this out in public, rather than in the privacy of their own bathroom) or to separate themselves for no good reason from certain others:

Would you really want to make these so-ordained people stand between a rock and a hard place? Obviously they must and will in such case obey God rather than the laws of a man-made state!

And suppose otherwise, that these idiotic behaviours are not from God, then this is not at all a matter of religion, never been and so religious freedom is not impacted!

«Religious freedom means you're free from being persecuted because of your religious beliefs;»

This is just a tiny and least worrying aspect of religious freedom.
Much more crucial is the denial of one's ability to carry out certain ordained physical acts of worship, yet the most serious and horrific of all is the forcing of religious people to perform actions that are proscribed by their religion. This must never be allowed to happen.

---

Dear Aries,

Are you seriously suggesting that there are people (over the of 5) who believe that there's an invisible guy in the sky?

You need to go back to square one, my friend, and study what religion is really about.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 9:26:41 PM
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.

Dear Akos,

.

Australia is a modern democracy that respects the UN’s 1948 Declaration of Human Rights’ articles 18 and 19 :

[Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.]

[Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.]
.

In practise, in terms of freedom of expression, the scales are largely weighted in favour of religion in every country in the Western world, without exception. Editors are extremely prudent when it comes to publishing books, articles poems, or other media, including artistic, historical, or scholarly works, that are critical of religion.

The fatwa calling for the death of Salman Rushdie for his “Satanic Verses” in 1989 has not been forgotten. The book sparked violence around the world and was banned in several countries. Those associated with the publication and translation were attacked and Rushdie's personal freedom was severely limited. He was forced to live in hiding for 13 years under police protection.

Religious intolerance is in everybody’s mind. It is a powerful dissuader for editors who dare not take the risk of publishing material that is critical of religion – no matter what the denomination – including Christianity.

I am pleased to see, Akos, that you have no problem publishing your article on your own blog and here on OLO. You are in excellent company. There are nearly 1,000 articles on religion here on OLO.

I haven’t had the courage to sift through them all to see if there are any that are critical of religion. There might be a few, but I haven’t found any yet.

There are even a few articles by Graham Young, the OLO editor himself – all emphatically pro-religion (Christianity).

Not many freethinkers.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Thursday, 17 June 2021 2:19:29 AM
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.

(Continued ...)

.

When asked of their religious affiliation in the 2016 census, 29.6% of Australians (or 6,933,708 people) selected "no religion."

This is more than seven percent higher (and 2,240,546 more people), than in the 2011 census. Additionally in 2016, another 0.5% instead opted to specify their form of irreligion, writing it in under "other," hence resulting in 30.1% of Australians (or just over 7,040,700 people) selecting "no religion." A further 9.6% either did not state a religion, or gave a response that was unclear, meaning that 39.7% of Australians did not expressly state a religious affiliation in the 2016 census. (Wikipedia)

So roughly 60% of Australians adhere to religion and 40% don't.

In terms of freedom of expression, that indicates that religious people are getting more than their fair share from the democratic system.

Pluralism and tolerance are fostered by the application of the principles of state neutrality/impartiality and respect. However, the principle of fostering pluralism and tolerance is also viewed as a goal in its own right because it is a means of preserving democracy. It requires religious adherents to accept ‘a fairly high degree of challenge’ to their belief systems in the pursuit of this goal.

Believers must ‘accept the legitimacy of there being a divergence of views on matters of fundamental significance to them within the broader society of which they form a part’, and the same principle applies to non-believers who are faced with the manifestation of forms of religion or belief which they might find unwelcome or unpalatable.

In such situations, the role of the state is ‘not to remove the cause of tension by eliminating pluralism, but through its actions seek to ensure toleration’.

Non-believers are still getting the short end of the stick for the moment, Akos.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Thursday, 17 June 2021 5:20:29 AM
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If left wing radical governments in democracies are persecuting Christians by criminalising Christian beliefs, there is a very easy and simple way of stopping them.

Do a Mahatma Ghandi.

Every Christian minister of every denomination should present themselves to their local police station and declare openly to the police that they promote beliefs that are illegal. Then ask the police to charge them and lock them up.

A similar thing happened in NSW under the Carr labor government. A bunch of lefty social workers in charge of overseeing palliative care hospitals, some run by the Catholic Church, that elderly said people had a "right" to sex. They demanded that all palliative care hospitals provide a room where elderly people could have sex.

The Catholic nuns and priests told them to shove it. When the neo Marxist bureaucrats threatened to charge them and jail them, the priests and nuns said "Fine, do it."

It was at this point that Premier Bob Carr stepped in and told the bureaucrats to back off.

I may be an enemy of the Catholic Church but I admire courage, and I admire people fighting for their freedom from out of control bureaucracies who are exceeding their authority.
Posted by LEGO, Thursday, 17 June 2021 8:17:46 AM
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Dear Yuyutsu, I would remind you of the 'grown ups' over the age of 5 who regularly lead the chant in churches all over the place, of the famous prayer that begins "Our Father that art in heaven..." If this isn't a reference to an invisible man in the sky I don't know what is. And ... if they don't believe it, why are they persisting with enforcing this on everyone else? But then, that's the real question isn't it?
Posted by Aries54, Thursday, 17 June 2021 10:08:16 AM
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Dear Aries,

Let me keep my answers short and simple, but do let me know if you require and have the patience for any deeper metaphysical explanations:

1. "Father" is a term of endearment for God in the Judaeo-Christian traditions - it is not to be understood literally.
2. Heaven is not in the sky (or anywhere else in the world for that matter).
3. God is not a man (or any other sort of creature, be it in the sky or anywhere else).
4. No seriously religious person would want to enforce their religion on others. That would be an especially silly thing to do because each one of us has their own special and sacred path to God, their own religion. Please understand that just because someone calls themselves "Christian" (for example) does not necessarily imply that they are religious.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 17 June 2021 1:15:25 PM
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So Yuyutsu

Let me get this clear. You are now saying that none of this is supposed to be taken literally. It is all metaphysical symbolism. Pardon me if I don't swallow that. What a pity that so many followers of the Christian religion (of which the prayer I referred to earlier belongs) so regularly and often cherry pick bits to be taken literally and those which are only 'metaphysical symbolism'. (Wives should follow their husbands unquestioningly springs to mind.)

I also refer you to your point #4 - No seriously religious person would want to enforce their religion on others.
What total B.S. The Roman Catholic sect of the Christian religion around the world is famous for its maltreatment of those who didn't follow their instructions (think unwed mothers, indigenous peoples in St. America - we could go on, but I won't) and you are surly ignoring the recruitment drives of missionaries who uninvited have knocked on your door to convince you of the benefits of allowing Jesus into your life. It has certainly happened to me as recently as last week.

Personally I want the right to be free FROM religion enshrined in the law of the land.
Posted by Aries54, Thursday, 17 June 2021 6:00:57 PM
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"Much more crucial is the denial of one's ability to carry out certain ordained physical acts of worship, yet the most serious and horrific of all is the forcing of religious people to perform actions that are proscribed by their religion. This must never be allowed to happen."

I see two opposing arguments here.

The first is the Christian bakery being asked to make a penis-shaped rainbow wedding cake with two men embracing on top.

If we say 'They are allowed to say no to this'
Then argument two now becomes valid:

The second is when the Muslim cab driver tells then blind woman with the guide dog that he's not taking her anywhere with the dog in the car.

Do you see it creates a dilemma.

What do we do?
Ban Christians from owning bakeries?
Ban Muslims from driving cabs?

That would then discriminate against the Christians and Muslims
In the same way the Christians and Muslims sought to discriminate against the gays and the bling with guide dogs, right.

So whats the answer?
The answer is, your religious beliefs are your own.
And you can't discriminate against people in a business environment.
You can't refuse service on the basis of religious, racial or political beliefs etc.

And so...

If you're a Christian and you want to own a bakery.
Don't offer a cake decorating services in the first place;
If you're a Muslim and you have an issue with a guide dog in your cab
- Then don't be a cab driver - choose something else.

If your religious beliefs prevent you from acting in a non-discriminatory way, then you should choose a different business or occupation.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 18 June 2021 12:00:31 AM
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Dear Aries,

«You are now saying that none of this is supposed to be taken literally.»

I was referring to the title of endearment, "Father who art in heaven": when a husband calls his wife "honey", he doesn't mean that she tastes sweet and was gathered by bees.

«What a pity that so many followers of the Christian religion (of which the prayer I referred to earlier belongs) so regularly and often cherry pick bits to be taken literally...»

Hold your horses: who ever said that Christianity is a religion?

This prayer was (allegedly at least) composed by Jesus, who wasn't a Christian and is also well respected in other religions.

This prayer has spiritual depth and reducing it to a literal level is ridiculous: should for example those with Celiac disease avoid asking "give us this day our daily bread"?

«The Roman Catholic sect of the Christian religion around the world is famous for its maltreatment...»

It is arguable whether they were Christians, their acts were irreligious, nor have they followed the teachings of Jesus Christ.

«you are surly ignoring the recruitment drives of missionaries who uninvited have knocked on your door to convince you of the benefits of allowing Jesus into your life.»

But if time allows, I am glad for the opportunity to teach them a thing or two about God and help them bring Him into their lives.

«Personally I want the right to be free FROM religion enshrined in the law of the land.»

How could that help you?
It would be like legislating to exempt certain people from the law of gravity, or permit them to exceed the speed of light - religion is everywhere, religion makes the world go round, not just people but even a rock has its religion and will eventually reunite with God, however long it takes.

But suppose what you meant was to prevent people from being told things and dictated by churches and similar so-called "religious" organisations, then I am all for it and also request similar freedoms for the religious to not be dictated by secular organisations.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 18 June 2021 2:38:43 AM
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Dear Critic,

«I see two opposing arguments here.

The first is the Christian bakery being asked to make a penis-shaped rainbow wedding cake with two men embracing on top.»

Interesting: I was more thinking along the lines of trying to force an orthodox Jew to attend court (say as a witness) on the Sabbath (when they are not allowed to travel), or a Muslim to drink alcohol, or both to have a vaccine that contains pig ingredients.

In your example, it is difficult to ascertain whether the baker's motive for refusing is religious or otherwise (that would indeed take a prophet to tell), which is why I would err on the conservative side to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and allow anyone to set their own limits over what decorations they are willing to produce.

Same for cab drivers and dogs. The [negative] freedom to abstain from actions counter to one's religion or conscience must always trump any [positive] "right" to have certain desires fulfilled.

(notwithstanding, the state could still theoretically deny extra privileges from those who do not accept its standards of service, e.g. exclusive fast lanes and cab-only parking spaces)

«The answer is, your religious beliefs are your own.»

Please do not change the subject: we are discussing actions and more so non-actions, not beliefs.

«And you can't discriminate against people in a business environment.
You can't refuse service on the basis of religious, racial or political beliefs etc.»

While I don't recommend either behaviour or think it wise, you should be able to do both, on whatever grounds, so long as this is your private business (not publicly funded or supported), your own premises and all is in the open.

«If your religious beliefs prevent you from acting in a non-discriminatory way, then...»

If indeed God wants you to act in a discriminatory way, then whatever be the consequences you must follow God, not any human laws, but does He? Quite unlikely, but let God handle those who make false claims in His name, He can do it much better than any state!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 18 June 2021 3:37:27 AM
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Hi Yuyutsu,

I didn't think I was wrong, but you made your arguments well.
- And I can see your point of view, from a 'believers' perspective, if you will.

I don't necessarily think your wrong in the arguments you made.
Does that mean I'm wrong?
I don't know.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 18 June 2021 3:31:09 PM
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Dear Critic,

I would never say that you are wrong.

It can happen that we entertain a thought which is not comprehensive enough, not so much "wrong" as just being too small to encompass all circumstances. Regardless, even if you had a wrong thought, then it was the thought which was wrong, not you!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 19 June 2021 8:53:44 PM
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Daffy Duck,

<<The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
Typical right wing hysterical rant but what else could you expect from a member of the pretentious "gospel" coalition.

The authors name has distinct similarities to the Balrog from the Lord of the Rings.>>

When will you quit using logical fallacies like this one? Not once did you deal with the content of the article but put him down because of his associations. You committed the genetic fallacy when you engaged in such erroneous reasoning of blaming Akos's views on his membership in 'the pretentious "gospel" coalition', https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Genetic-Fallacy

Take a read of his biographical details where you'll discover he 'was born overseas in Budapest, Hungary, and migrated with my family when I was four years old. I grew up in Sydney, and upon finishing high school, I joined the Australian Army (as a Combat Engineer). After the army, I completed a degree in Aerospace Engineering at the University of NSW (in Sydney), and worked in the Royal Australian Air Force as an Aerospace Engineering Officer for 5 years.'

He's a refugee and his family knows what it is like to live under a Communist regime where religious freedom is restricted.
Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 26 June 2021 6:16:34 PM
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