All the media has misrepresented Israel in the current conflict, now a state of "peace" until the next time Hamas attacks Israel. It is because all the media is anti-Israel and anti-Semitic.

because all the media is anti-Israel and anti-Semitic.
ttbn.
I wasn't around then but from what I was told & have read, the Nazis in 1930's Germany started off like that. PC first, then dob-in, then well, we all know what followed.
The Leftists are indeed a treacherous outfit ! They're the most right-wing you can be yet they perpetually bleat "Right Wing Extremism" but not disclosing that they refer to themselves !

My goodness what a pile of nauseous trash complete with utterly tenuous links that would make any conspiracy theorist proud.

Singer is trying to make the case that The Middle East Eye represents part of the Hamas intelligence apparatus. What utter hogwash and indicative of the quite distasteful propaganda served up by Israel's shills.

He even bloody contradicts himself because he first claimed “Middle East Eye (MEE) - an increasingly prominent web portal - often obscures its finances, but it increasingly fills the gap as Qatar's chief agent of influence.”

There is absolutely no way this justified the bringing down of that building. It was purely done so reporting on the slaughter of women and children in Gaza's street would be obscured. It was a venal act from a venal leadership and those attempting to justify it like this are part of the club.

individual,

The Socialists are extremely anti-Semitic whether they call themselves Marxists or National Socialists. I'm not sure what "ism" fits Hamas, but they are a murderous, anti-Semitic organisation - a fact never mentioned by any of the media in their fervour to express their own hatred of Jews and Israel.

Good article.

- Not Yours, The Middle East Eye article/s you linked -

So the only actual thing you could find to get upset over was, 'conveniently omitting to include MEE's location'.
- That's it?

You're saying their denigrating and deligitimising the Jewish state
- Because they omitted to include MEE's location?

What if they had've included it?
What would've been your gripe then?
That they're somehow now associated or affiliated with MEE?

You yourself even linked the article where MEE stated 'Israel bombs Gaza building used by Middle East Eye, Al Jazeera and AP'
- What are you accusing MEE of?
- Reporting the truth?

Are you just angry the MEE reports news at all?
- Trying to make sense of this, David -
Nothing in any of the MEE articles I just looked at seem to be 'Designed to whip up anti-Israel hatred'
- It's just news reporting -

And so what because MEE is in the building that's somehow justification for 'Israel's demolition of the 14 storey building'?

You acknowledge it but you don't have anything to say about it.
Your gripe is Al Jazeera and AP omitting MME's location?
Is that right?

Do you comprehend the concept that Israel blowing up media buildings might garner criticism?
denigrate means 'criticise unfairly'

Here's a good MEE article I just read.
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/profile-hamass-qassam-brigade-head-mohammed-deif

So the story is basically this:
Israel drops a MINI NUKE on a house to kill a guy in a wheelchair, but somehow he gets away and the wife and kid are killed.

- Did he somehow speed off on the wheelchair?
- How could they miss? It doesn't say.

David, don't look now, but your nose could be a yard longer?

If this was a cover-up!? How come we all know about it!?

Hamas will lose all credibility and influence, if we successfully roll out a validated, agreed to, two-state solution and the rollback of most if not all illegally annexed, occupied Palestinian land!

And we know and understand it can never ever be perfect, but the product of hard-won compromise. [And I like the assurance that iron dome will continue to be supported by The USA! FOR NOW!]

And needs to be conducted in a closed apartment/room none can walk away from, until an agreed and officially validated agreement is signed, sealed and delivered!

All that's really missing, is the political will!
Alan B.

A.C. Depends on the wheelchair type and the motivation of the guy or gal pushing the wheels around?

Me, you've never seen a faster straight line wheelchair when I am sufficiently motivated? As I say, wheels if you can't go any faster? move over and let dis here body through!

And I dare say, could spin those wheels fast enough to cross a large body of water without getting the tootsies wet? Turbocharged blueprinted V8 power would assist! As would rocket-assisted takeoff.

In fact, as I pass him by, that streak they call the roadrunner would appear to be standing still? I'd be in the next county before he got off the start line? I could even pass myself coming back? Not called warp speed for nothing.
Alan B.

SR,

As Hamas controlled the MEE, and military members were often seen at their offices, the MEE was not a news agency in the form that CNN or Reuters ever were and at best was simply a mouthpiece for Hamas.

Given Hamas's record of hiding military assets at schools and hospitals, it is more than likely that Israeli intelligence was right on the money.

#Steele Redux

You state:
"He even bloody contradicts himself because he first claimed “Middle East Eye (MEE) - an increasingly prominent web portal - often obscures its finances, but it increasingly fills the gap as Qatar's chief agent of influence.”

I didn't make the claim. I was quoting from the 2017 expose.

The article then went on to claim:
"Delving into the details of MEE, however, show that it acts far less as a traditional journalistic outlet and far more as an English-language front for Qatari-supported groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas."

That could hardly be called a contradiction - but rather an amplification of the role played by MEE in the media propaganda war waged by Hamas on Israel.

Guess you think the best way to cover up the message is to shoot the messenger. It doesn't work mate.

David Singer,

Sure, let's go after the messenger.

Your link is to an article on Coptic Christian website and written by a Jewish author who is a visiting fellow at the right wing think tank the American Enterprise Institute.

This bloke writes such riveting pieces such as “Biden kills pipelines at home but promotes them for the Taliban”
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/biden-kills-pipelines-at-home-but-promotes-them-for-the-taliban

Of course it was all crap.
http://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-pipeline-taliban-idUSL1N2LM201

Quote:

The two projects were only linked when a former Pentagon official and frequent Biden critic Michael Rubin wrote in a Washington Examiner opinion piece after the Keystone permit was revoked that “Biden is promoting a pipeline to enrich both one of the world’s worst dictatorships and a group responsible for thousands of U.S. deaths.” (here)
There is no evidence that Biden has ever spoken about such a pipeline as president or personally promoted the deal. His comments related to the Taliban, a militant group that once ruled Afghanistan, have focused on stationing U.S. troops in Afghanistan (here , here ).
Meanwhile, the government is not pushing a pipeline for the Taliban or directly supporting the TAPI project, a U.S. State Department spokesperson said. In an email to Reuters they said: “The United States played no role in the Taliban’s visit to Turkmenistan in February and is in no position to comment on those discussions. The U.S. Government is not providing any direct financial support to the TAPI project.”

End quote

And yet this was your lynch pin fact that justified the destruction of the media offices in Gaza. The "2017 expose". For god's sake, get real. Laughable is a kind description of it.

You bloke has form, is not believable, and is rather blatantly biased.

SR,

You have cocked up again. What the first article claimed was:

1 Biden cancelled the keystone pipeline
2 Biden supported the Turkmenistan/ Afghanistan pipeline from which both Turkmenistan and the Taliban will profit.
3 That both the Turkmenistan and Taliban are tyrannical.

The second article disputes the timeline advocate by others but does not dispute any of the 3 points above.

#Armchair Critic

In response to your following comments:

1. "So the only actual thing you could find to get upset over was, 'conveniently omitting to include MEE's location'.
- That's it?"

Misleading your readers by omitting material facts is dishonest reporting.

2. "You're saying their denigrating and deligitimising the Jewish state
- Because they omitted to include MEE's location?"

Yes - by creating the impression that Israel had no reason for destroying a building which housed an important Hamas asset - its media arm.

3. What if they had've included it?
What would've been your gripe then?
That they're somehow now associated or affiliated with MEE?"

No.

4. "You yourself even linked the article where MEE stated 'Israel bombs Gaza building used by Middle East Eye, Al Jazeera and AP'
- What are you accusing MEE of?
- Reporting the truth?"

MEE initially confirmed its location in the building but a subsequent article by its editor David Hearst did not. Wonder why? I did and the result was my article.

5. Are you just angry the MEE reports news at all?
- Trying to make sense of this, David -
Nothing in any of the MEE articles I just looked at seem to be 'Designed to whip up anti-Israel hatred'
- It's just news reporting -"

Take your blinkers off. Hamas is a Jew-hating organisation dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish State and its media arm spews out Jew-hatred on a daily basis.

6. "And so what because MEE is in the building that's somehow justification for 'Israel's demolition of the 14 storey building'?

Housing Hamas's rockets and other assets in commercial and residential buildings make them military targets justifying their demolition.

7. "Your gripe is Al Jazeera and AP omitting MME's location?
Is that right?"

Correct. Typifies lack of honest, objective and critical reporting coming out of Gaza.

8. "Do you comprehend the concept that Israel blowing up media buildings might garner criticism?
denigrate means 'criticise unfairly'"

Yes. But the situation is very different if one knows the propaganda media arm of Hamas was located in that building

#Alan B

In reply to your following comments:

1. "David, don't look now, but your nose could be a yard longer?"

A Jew-hating trope that is not appreciated. Please withdraw it.

2. "If this was a cover-up!? How come we all know about it!?"

Because I wrote about it. What was your source for knowing all about it before you read my article?

3. "Hamas will lose all credibility and influence, if we successfully roll out a validated, agreed to, two-state solution and the rollback of most if not all illegally annexed, occupied Palestinian land!"

Rubbish - this is what the Hamas Charter says:
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day."

"The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters."

By the way it is not "illegally annexed, occupied Palestinian land!"

It is land designated by the League of Nations in 1920 and confirmed by the United Nations in 1945 as the site for the reconstitution of the Jewish National Home.

To deny these international decisions just exposes your Jew-hatred even more than your opening disgraceful comment.

Good to see David Singer responding to some pretty ignorant posters of the sort who go beserk when the words 'Jew' and 'Israel' are mentioned.

David, David, David.
Of all the things I've said on this thread, my last comment is the one you choose to fact check?
Should I assume you're ok with all the rest?
- No reason to challenge anything else I've said?
If so, that in itself says a lot.

"Take your blinkers off. Hamas is a Jew-hating organisation dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish State and its media arm spews out Jew-hatred on a daily basis."

You mean they report that they 'Do not love the occupation and criticise wherever credit is due'?
- And that's enough to blow them up?

Like I said earlier, target media buildings and you lose the right to call yourself a government.

'regime' David.
How much more criticism do you want?

"Housing Hamas's rockets and other assets in commercial and residential buildings make them military targets justifying their demolition."

There weren't any weapons in there, stop lying.
Housing weapons there would make the building a legitimate target so why would they do that, why risk it?
I'm sure they're pretty good tunnel builders and they can hide that stuff elsewhere right?
And after all people might notice them carrying bombs and missiles in through the front door?
The communications capabilities of the antennas on the roof make it a a good target, beyond that you wouldn't want Palestinians having access to news or a smartphone right?

Why would I hide my bombs in the news room?
Wouldn't it be better to hide them underground - NOT above ground in a 14 storey building full of international journalists?
Doesn't make sense David.

If you think it's ok to blow up buildings because they report a truth you don't like, then you have a terrorist mentality, simple.

Par for the course I guess, coming from a nation founded and ruled by terrorists.

Hey Alan B,

You don't happen to have any spare tropes do you?
I'm not sure what they are but they seem to get right up Davids nose.

Yes Israel would be on the run if the Palestinians had a few more of those wheelchairs.
"Turbocharged blueprinted V8 power would assist! As would rocket-assisted takeoff."
'Take us up to warp speed, Mr Sulu'

- It might be too much of a fair fight, the Palestinians might be able to kill the Israeli leaders wives and kids in their beds.

David Singer,

What an utterly reprehensible slur to concoct from what Alan.B said.

You know as well as everyone else it was in reference to your lies and twisted propaganda. Yet you now claim it was an anti-Semitic jibe.

This is in my opinion a deep insult to the victims of the Holocaust and that you are crapping over their memory and the lethal anti-Semiticism which took their lives.

Again in my opinion you are almost criminally abusing the term and you have form in this regard.

Employing it so utterly falsely as you have just done only serves to devalue the notion of anti-Semiticism. You and others like you are employing cancel culture tactics to shut down criticism of Israel's actions and this is a popular manifestation of such.

Really pitiful stuff and you should be completely ashamed of yourself.

Shadowminister,

Do you really understand what you are trying to say? It doesn't speak highly of your comprehension son. Try again.

Isn't it funny how the Palestinians are all wound up about the Israelis on 'their' land ?
We never hear of Palestinians occupying land in other parts of the World that doesn't belong to them !
Looks as though there are quite a few Palestinians here in Australia living on Aborigine land & neither the Aborigines nor the Palestinians seem to mind.
Shame they don't have the same mentality in the Gaza strip !

Nq, David! I'm not antisemitic! Some of my best friends are Jews! And many agree with me About illegal occupation and that a two-state solution is the only way to end this current bloodbath and the stories that are concocted to Justify it.

I can't forgive any of this and from neither side. Be it terrorist organisations like Iranian supported Hamas or Hezbollah. Or Nethenyhu's Sturm Troopers and their death and destruction activities!

Israeli death toll, 12? Gazans 140+ Men, women, boys, girls and Swadling infants? A proportionate response to rockets fired over overzealous policing? Probably not?

But there was no need to police a Mosque or the illegal annex of Palestinian property in East Jeuslaham! Unless Nethenyhu wanted to stir up a conflict to distract and postpone his dethroning as PM?

As I said and that pushed your buttons in a predictable way. It's good that the USA has guaranteed to continue to support iron dome for now. Call that and me antisemitic or anybody else the dares speak the truth or anybody who disagrees with your take!

Inappropriate labels never made it so. Just made your nose another yard longer?

You have a nice day now.
Alan B.

"David! I'm not antisemitic! Some of my best friends are Jews!"

Oh, for heaven's sake Alan! All the anti-Semites say that.

Hamas is a vicious terrorists organisation bankrolled by Iran, with the intention of wiping Israel off the map. Their assaults have nothing to do with land or occupation. They just want to kill Jews. It's as simple as that. Your comments and warped thinking are vile, to say the least.

Another thing of course is that Hamas need to provoke an Israeli response that kills a fair number of their citizens. It is only their citizens anger at Israel that enables Hamas to stay in power.

Yasser Arafat used the same tactics when peace got too close, & he saw his power about to be lost. I find it hard to believe there are people watching from this distance that can't see this.

Of course we do have some who don't want to see the truth.

SR,

Sorry, I'd forgotten that you are a little slow. I will make it simple.

You tried to rubbish DS's article because it refers to an article by Michael Rubin whom you claim is unreliable because an earlier opinion piece of his was trashed by Reuter's fact-finding article. (a tortuous trail)

Where you cocked up was that the Reuter's piece actually confirmed all the salient points in Michael Rubin's article and was aimed at other rumours.

Thus Michael Rubin is not a bullsh1tter but you are.

#Steele Redux, #Alan B, #Armchair Critic

Your responses to my comments only confirm and out you three as Jew haters who support a Jew-hating terrorist organisation that seeks to kill Jews - as the Hamas Charter makes very clear in the extracts I published in response to #Alan B.

Rather than applauding Israel for the destruction of Hamas's virulent media arm - covered up by the international media stationed in Gaza - you have put yourselves firmly in Hamas's corner - an organisation whose Jew-hating irrationality knows no bounds - as the following further extract from its Charter makes clear:

"You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it."

One thing about Hamas that you three lack: Hamas makes its hatred of Jews very clear. You three try to hide your Jew-hatred - falsely professing not to be Jew haters but merely critics of the actions taken by Israel as it seeks to eradicate Hamas in the pursuit of its stated intention of destroying the Jewish State and all the Jews who live there.

Hamas's lust for the spilling of Jewish blood is palpable - as is yours.

Wallow in your hatred. You haven't even got the guts to do so under your real names.

Hasbeen

Good point about keeping the Palestinian citizenry riled, which would be easy given their ignorance and lack of education. All those little old women dressed in black, screaming for the TV cameras.

Leftism = Negative, Anti-Patriotic in your own country & Hatred of Israel. it's that simple.

Where have I stated I support Hamas?

You started this thread about two news organisations that Israel blew up complaining they were acting out of 'Jew hatred' because they omitted MEE being in the building.
You're quite possibly insane.

I checked MEE stories, they're just news stories.
Its not my fault they paint a picture that makes Israel look bad.

You seem to conflate ANYONE that isn't in love with Israel to the point of being blindly besotted, as Jew-haters by automatic default.

You yourself have already stated in your responses to me;
- That JUST by being a news organisation critical of Israel that it deserved to be destroyed
>>"Do you comprehend the concept that Israel blowing up media buildings might garner criticism?
denigrate means 'criticise unfairly'"

Yes. But the situation is very different if one knows the propaganda media arm of Hamas was located in that building<<

You think its actually OK to blow up media offices; YOU STATED AS MUCH
You think no-one has any right to criticise Israel at all for blowing up that building
- Because it contained a news organisation you're critical of.

Please understand the country you live in - Australia
It's the reason you also enjoy the ability to SPOUT YOUR CRAP

I'll criticise anything any everything WHENEVER THE HELL I want.
I'll criticise TV hosts and celebrities and stupid stuff on TV all day long.
It's a free country, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE to say I can't have an opinion?

FYI

It's not a crime to not support Israel.
It's not a crime to not love Israel.
It's not a crime to criticise Israel when it kills and murders others.

"You haven't even got the guts to do so under your real names."

Just as well too isn't it?
- You're the type of human trash who would use your skills as a lawyer to conduct LAWFARE upon others tying people up in years of legal battles and bankrupting them.

- Just because you don't like any bad media coverage or criticism of some horrible foreign country.

AC,

Lucky for you it is not illegal to be a bigoted antisemite either.

"AC,

Lucky for you it is not illegal to be a bigoted antisemite either."

Well maybe you're just the type of NAZI that wishes it was illegal right?
- That way you could have your way and round me up and put me in a concentration camp to shut me up?

AC,

You hatred of jews makes you far closer to being a Nazi than me.

Well...

I'm not the one forcing a whole entire nation of people to live in a concentration camp am I?
I'm not the one who kills people at home together with their wives and their kids in their beds.
I'm not the one dropping smart-bombs on women, kids and the elderly.
I'm not the one using collective punishment on a whole nation of people.
I'm not the one that blows up 15 story media buildings so the world doesn't see the truth.
I'm not the one robbing people of their land, their homes, their future and their dignity.
- And I'm not the one who drops mini nukes on houses to try to kill a man on a wheelchair.

I'm just an mere arrangement of words on a screen.
But you're acting like you want to NAIL ME UP ON A CROSS or something;

You really really wonder why these people hate you and fight back?
- I probably would too if you did that stuff listed above to me

Thankfully I'm not in that situation.

The killings are always disproportionate
If they kill one, then Israel kills 10.

'Love the occupation and your slow noose, or die'

- You really shouldn't treat people that way -

Bad things happen when good people do nothing.
- I'm just doing my bit for the sake of humanity.

A classic example how such people spread their insipid hatred, it's even taking up space here !
They don't actually want to a solution, their mission is to spread the stupidity !

#Armchair Critic

Your refusal to condemn Hamas's insane hatred for the Jewish State and the 8 million Jews who live there clearly indicates your support for Hamas and its actions.

Might I point you to another excerpt from the Hamas Charter:

" ... the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

These mad men are firing their rockets, digging their tunnels and storing their weapons in mosques, hospitals and commercial and residential buildings and firing those rockets from locations next to these properties to deliberately kill Jews in accordance with Allah's command.

Your failure to denounce these rabid Jew-haters - strategically and deliberately locating themselves and their military and propaganda assets among Gaza's population - justifies you being labelled a Jew-hater.

"HAMAS would definitely not be prepared to co exist with Israel even if the Zionists returned to their pre 1969 borders."

HAMAS leader Mahmoud al-Zahar.

AC,

You are a bit of a drama queen.

There is no concentration camp,
Hamas kills people at home
The smart bombs are aimed at Hamas not women and children
Hamas's rockets are aimed at women and children (they also kill Palestinians)

etc.

All Bollocks and just a one-sided pretext for bigotry

It's all very simple people. Leftism & leftists are anti-social.

"Your refusal to condemn Hamas's insane hatred for the Jewish State and the 8 million Jews who live there clearly indicates your support for Hamas and its actions."

David, I'm not going to condemn Hamas's 'insane hatred' for Israel' any more than I will condemn Palestinians fighting for a 'right to self determination';

- A right afforded to all people under international law
- A principle of the UN and Atlantic Charter
- ALSO MADE CLEAR ON THE TAXPAYER FUNDED WEBPAGES OF OUR NATIONS GOVERNMENT.

Do you want to have a look?
Just click the link below and you can find out all about it.

http://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/rights-and-freedoms/right-self-determination

Ok, so you want to bring up religious crap.

Does it not say in 1 Samuel 15:3
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

* Were the Jews not commanded to attack the Amalekites?
Now what's this story here David?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2009/05/the-abuse-of-amalek/18084/

>>In a 2004 New Yorker article on the Israeli settler movement, Goldberg asked Benzi Lieberman, the chairman of the council of settlements "if he thought the Amalekites existed today." Lieberman responded: "The Palestinians are Amalek!" Lieberman went on, "We will destroy them. We won't kill them all. But we will destroy their ability to think as a nation. We will destroy Palestinian nationalism."

Mate, the religious nutjubs you're complaining about are just as bad as YOUR OWN religious nutjubs.

And don't talk to me about the Day of Judgement, since it's Jews who think they have a right to rule over non-Jews under Noahide Law.
They who wish to end the UN and bring a collection of 70 nations together in Jerusalem, and the supposed false messiah who rules over this future crapfest will be a Jew.

Don't forget that in 1666 Sabbatai Levi turned the Jewish religion on its head, decided they wont wait for Jesus to come and they will install their own, so we're all just waiting for the Anti-Christ and the end of it all.
We want Moshiach now! We don't want to wait!
Isn't that how it goes?
http://youtu.be/WnhMntRHqpo

Tell me that doesn't get the religious vibes flowing!

Your religious lot JUST CANT WAIT for the Messianic age.
- They want it YESTERDAY.

I don't even care about religions.
Religious are more or less all the same to me.
They KNOW God exists and they all KNOW their God is the one and only.
- Well I'm smart enough to know they can't all be right, and I'm also a person of ethics.

I sway more towards the 'I don't know fence-sitter group' personally, and I think all you religious people will probably be the bloody end of us all.

"Your failure to denounce these rabid Jew-haters - strategically and deliberately locating themselves and their military and propaganda assets among Gaza's population - justifies you being labelled a Jew-hater."

No, I'll just criticise wherever I think criticism's due.
You however ARE a SERIAL Palestinian HATER.

But then Palestine doesn't exist in your lots religion does it?
The difference between Eretz Yisrael and the State of Israel
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/245869
- Maybe the Rebbe can educate you.

Isn't it a fact David that Menachen Begin took part in the King David Hotel Bombing - which preceded Israels founding?
And didn't he and also found the Likud Party that still governs today, by a vast majority?

It's right here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud

And look who still governs Israel David.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israeli_legislative_election

Who planned the attack of the King David Hotel, David?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

"The leaders of Haganah opposed the idea initially. On July 1, 1946, Moshe Sneh, chief of the Haganah General Headquarters, sent a letter to the then leader of the Irgun, Menachem Begin, which instructed him to "carry out the operation at the 'chick'", code for the King David Hotel. Despite this approval for the project, repeated delays in executing the operation were requested by the Haganah, in response to changes unfolding in the political situation. The plan was finalized between Amichai Paglin (Irgun alias 'Gidi'), Chief of Operations of the Irgun, and Itzhak Sadeh, commander of the Palmach."

It's right there David.

And just so you all know this right

JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR

The right to self determination IS NOT a religious right David.
- It's a human one, something I think you might've forgotten.

Maybe you lack that characteristics that makes a person human, David?

AC,

Hamas is not fighting for self-determination as it has abolished elections.

"To quote from the original Hamas charter: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it just as it obliterated others before it ... The day of judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them.”

While the charter has been supplemented to soften its impact, only this week Hamas deputy political chief Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzouk said his group’s war against Israel would end with “their [the Jews] leaving Palestine”."

shadowminister,

This is the original party platform of Likud.

"The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace."

So what is the difference?

david singer,

Yup. You spewed out half dozen 'jew hater' slurs in a single post and they were nothing. You and your ilk have robbed them of their power. It is evident to me at least that you have so little respect for the memory of what true anti-antisemiticism entailed and its victims. Shame on you.

Ok, well What do the blue stripes on the Israeli flag signify?

That's what I was trying to say SR,
Israel decided it wanted everyone else gone;
And that was 50 years before it even became a modern state in 1947.
And Davids quick to throw out all the treaties when it suits him.

But he himself likes to omit or ignore the parts that suit him.
But even with the Balfaur Declaration he ignores the parts that suit him.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to fascilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may predjudice the civil and religious rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country"

[Parts omitted; just in case David throws a tantrum.]

http://www.science.co.il/israel-history/images/Balfour-Declaration.jpg
- Obviously it wasn't 'clearly understood'.

David will talk about Balfour Declaration and use it when it suits him:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=19398&page=0

Quote>>5. Ambassador Jonathan Allen - UK deputy permanent representative to the UN told the Security Council on 17 October:
And let us remember, there are two halves of Balfour, the second half of which has not been fulfilled. There is therefore unfinished business.
Ambassador Allen was spouting pure unadulterated fiction. There are no two halves of the Balfour Declaration.<<

So David, what do you have to say about this?

Any normal person would read the declaration and hear what Ambassador Allen said and assume he was referencing the section that said 'it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may predjudice the civil and religious rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country';
- i.e referencing a 2 state solution.
- the declaration does not say you can murder and take land forever until nothings left does it?

Is that how you'd read that SteeleRedux?

Seems to me Davids quite happy himself to omit that which suits him, but if others do it, it's a cover-up and an act of deliberate calculated jew-hate.

- I'm honestly not sure he's all there.

Why are people who aren't radical, extreme, left wing, bothering to argue with people on this blog, who ARE radical, extreme left wing & anti-semitic or anti-israel as well?

"You can lead a leftist to accurate, easily verified information, but unlike a horse, you can't make a leftist think, anything, at all"

# Armchair Critic

Your obvious hatred of Jews continues to permeate your further comments. The more you rant, the more your hatred is exposed.

I am more than happy to correct your comments about the Balfour Declaration

1. The Declaration did not refer to "the Palestinians" but only to the "existing non-Jewish communities". The term "Palestinians" was not invented and defined until 1964 with the creation of the PLO. The Balfour Declaration clearly disabuses any notion that there was any Palestinian people or Palestinian nation then in existence.

2. The civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities were indeed not to be prejudiced. But no mention of them having any political rights appeared in the Declaration because they had none - having been subjects of the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years.

3. The Balfour Declaration had no legal effect until it was included in the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine - the territory of Palestine being defined by the Mandate to include what is today called Israel, Jordan, Gaza and the West Bank (Judea and Samaria).

4. The Mandate allocated 22% of the territory of Palestine - Israel, Gaza and the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) - as the site for the reconstitution of the Jewish National Home whilst the remaining 78% - Jordan - was closed to Jewish settlement. The Jews accepted this decision reluctantly but the Arabs never did and have continued to reject it for the last 100 years.

This is the only two-state solution that has any chance of succeeding: Israel and Jordan redrawing the existing international boundary between their two existing states in direct negotiations. This should result in the Arabs gaining sovereignty in about 80% of former Palestine and the Jews in the remaining 20%.

Dear Armchair Critic,

As Chomsky says "Christian Zionism is a very powerful force which goes back long before Jewish Zionism".
http://youtu.be/lUQ_0MubbcM

It was Christian Zionism which informed the Balfour Declaration and cruelled the promises of self determination made to the Arabs during WW1.

david singer,

Continuing to whore out the 'jew hatred' slur I see. All I hear is the utter disrespect you must surely have for history of anti-semiticism. Shame.

SR,

So what, Likud's platform has changed over the past 50 years from that when all Arabs were intent on genocide. If Hamas wants peace it will have to change from its genocidal agenda.

SR, AC,

Both of you are by all common definitions anti-semitic. Deal with it.

shadowminister,

And you mate are a pathetic little hive mind whose politics are so bereft of individual thought you have to follow nasty little apologists for Israeli's atrocities and war crimes and parrot their utterances just to have some inkling of relevance.

But I still engage with you such is my forbearance.

Just as Likud changed their platform, so did Hamas in 2017 via their Document of general principles and policies.

In part it reads:

“16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.

17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.”
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/hamas-2017-document-of-general-principles-and-policies

Dear imacentristmoderate.

Mate you really are short a few roos in the top paddock aren't you.

As to this:
"You can lead a leftist to accurate, easily verified information, but unlike a horse, you can't make a leftist think, anything, at all"

Utter projection of course, the type of which hard right loonies like yourself are usually so quick to fall back on. You really should think about giving it a rest. You are actually making a lightweight like shadowminister look a smidge substantial, which he patently is not.

Dear SteeleRedux,

Mate i had relatives of Senator Larissa Waters around the Christmas dinner table when i was younger & my best mate at school is a cousin of former ALP MP Arch Bevis. I grew up around the corner from former ALP deputy Lord Mayor Frank Waters when Clem Jones was Lord Mayor of the Brisbane City Council.

When i was "young & stupid" leftist ideas sounded slightly sensible to me. To my eternal shame i even gave my preference votes to Comrades Hawke & Keating after voting #1 for the Australian Democrats.

What a naive, idealistic fool was i?

Then earlier this century i grew up, got over myself, joined the mainstream of Australians who love freedom & democracy.

Unlike you who loves slavery & communism. All fail the fascist left.

Dear imacentristmoderate,

Get your hand off it mate.

Your side of politics absolutely loved and supported some of the most draconian surveillance laws since WW2 shoved through by Dutton.

Your side of politics cheers when powers of detention were granted to the above minister which would have made the Stazi smile.

Your side of politics squeal with delight as truck loads of vote buying and democracy squashing corporate donations are shoved into LNP coffers.

Your side of politics are more than comfortable with a foreign, hard right newspaper owner completely skewing the public debate in this country to serve our billionaire class.

The only parts freedom and democracy you care about are the ones that serve you in particular and your politic in general. The rest can go jump it seems.

Dear SteeleRedux, You're joking aren't you mate?

Anybody who would vote for the Major Mistakes parties is so extremely mentally ill, they should be taken out to the RSPCA & humanely put down with the other dangerous dogs.

You are forgetting the mid 1990s when both sides of politics claimed Pauline Hanson was racist & then copied her policies almost word for word. But you already knew that didn't you?

Hi imacentristmoderate,

SR might be more of a leftist, but any attempt to label me as such is laughable.
I openly supported Trump in 2016;
- I wouldn't be seen anywhere near people who identify themselves as 'progressive'.

Until recently I thought of myself as much more of a conservative;
- Until I saw the kind of mindless crap coming out of SKY channel during COVID.
And now I don't wish to be associated with them either.

I'm my own person, I think for myself and I don't want to be pigeon-holed into any gang.
I don't like the gang mentality, or peer pressured into commonly held positions.

As for David, well trying to say I support Hamas is kind of stupid as well;
- Because I'll openly disparage any religion (and often do) if I think credit is due.
- With my criticisms, none of them would have me.

I'm more about ethics, and I'll stand up for what I think is right regardless of what other commenters on the forum think.

shadowminister
"Both of you are by all common definitions anti-semitic. Deal with it."

Do you understand I don't even care how you try to gift wrap my criticism?
(My opinion about the term 'anti-semite' is that it's a completely made up word that doesn't mean anything)

- I'll criticise whatever I want, if I think the argument holds merit.
- And I'm not going to change.

It doesn't matter what names you call me to try to coerce me to not say whatever it is I think.
- Because I'm still going to say what I think regardless.

"I am more than happy to correct your comments about the Balfour Declaration"

- And I'm more than happy to correct you.

You say:

"2. The civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities were indeed not to be prejudiced. But no mention of them having any political rights appeared in the Declaration because they had none - having been subjects of the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years."

Weasel words (You are a lawyer).
What are you saying it was just put in there for a show of goodwill but doesn't actually mean anything?
- I don't think that what your suggesting is in the spirit of what's conveyed in that document, sorry.

Your saying that since they were mere cattle under Ottoman rule with no existing rights prior to 1948, there was no onus to treat them other than mere cattle into the future?

What's the actual deal there anyway?

Because the crypto-jews helped undermine the Ottoman empire?
- That's why Aussies including my Great Grandfather who was a Lighthorseman and made CO on the battlefield after his CO was shot...
Were try to win a war in trenches of dysentery at Gallipoli?
And what was the payoff for the crypto-jews help?
That stupid Balfour document?
... But I digress

Your arguments do however seem to omit other facts.
Like the Atlantic Charter 1941 and United Nations 1945
- Both of which recognised the right to self determination.

In my mind David - any previous deal to establish a purely Jewish state is no longer realistically possible from this point onwards.
- Because the people living there now have a recognised human right of self determination.

This one was never going to end well for you David sorry.
- You just can't blow up media buildings with 5 minutes notice and not expect criticism.

SR,

You toxic racist troll. Again you simply regurgitate Hamas's propaganda. Hamas might have changed a few words in a document for publicity, but they make no effort to live by it in any form or deviate from their murderous efforts

Hi Armchair Critic,

Modern humanist, secular atheism is the most evil religion in world history & is in fact Devil Worship or Anti-Christianity or International Socialism or Communism pretending to be atheism.

EVERY word of the morals, ethics & principles you could claim to support are in the Bible.

The world is full of people who talk the talk, without walking the walk.

Hi Shadow Minister,

Many well intentioned anti-racist people forget there is only one genocide on the planet at the moment.

White genocide is occurring in EVERY nation on earth at the moment. There is indiscriminate democide occurring too. But in terms of being based purely on race & for no reason other than race. There is nothing other than white genocide.

Shadowminister,

You really are a dropkick aren't you.

I quote from a Jewish human rights organisation, a Jewish website and a Jewish intellectual and yet somehow I am spewing Hamas propaganda and anti-semitic to boot.

And this could equally apply. 'Likud might have changed a few words in a document for publicity, but they make no effort to live by it in any form or deviate from their murderous efforts'

What an idiot.

Dear imacentristmoderate,

So you have drunk the koolaid, what of it? You certainly aren't alone in this Trumpian era and it certainly doesn't mean any fewer roos are loose up there. That is something you have to live with not me.

SR,

You really are a fwit. You are the idiot that dredged up a policy statement by Likud from nearly 5 decades ago and implied that it still stood for the Likud party today with zero of the original members. Have you got rocks for brains?

Next, you assert that because Hamas sanitized their founding statement under duress that suddenly their intentions to massacre Jews has changed even in the face of their constant calls to kill every Israeli.

I bet that when you were born the doctor slapped your mother.

shadowminister,

This was their platform in 1999, a little over 20 years ago not 50.

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river."

"The Jordan Valley and the territories that dominate it shall be under Israeli sovereignty. The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel."

The quotes I used were from the Jewish Virtual Library you muppet.

I prefaced them with the word original. You made not such distinction when you quoted from Hamas' original policy did you.

You are a two faced conniving hate-filled piece of nastiness but it would really help if you weren't so blatantly inept and so easily called out on this stuff. It's boring.

Dear SteeleRedux,

There is NO such thing as a left wing Jew. Judaism is a religion & NOT a race.

If you are not a Torah reading, 17 commandments abiding, synagogue attender, then you by definition are NOT a Jew.

Left wing religion or leftism is a completely different religious cult & sadly you are one of them. Millions of Australians are waking up to the sad fact that people like you are the most evil in world history.

Pray that conservative christians like me try to protect you from the lynch mobs when SHTF happens.

One of the problems that exist in regards to Israel, is that it will not publicly declare its borders.
You can't expect Palestinians to act peacefully if you keep taking land but will not publicly state your true intentions.

Israel is purely at fault for this entire mess
- It will not state it's borders deliberately continuing the stalemate whilst continuing to take more land.
- Because it has aspirations to have the whole entire lot.
- It already acts like lands that it doesn't rightfully possess are also its own.

- ISRAEL PLEASE STATE YOUR BORDERS -

"EVERY word of the morals, ethics & principles you could claim to support are in the Bible."

- Well you don't seem to have learned anything.

Do you want to know why ethics beats religion every time?
- Because with ethics I can look at the positive and negative aspects of all religions without buying into any of them. Simple.

What makes you think your religion just happens to be the right one, whilst all the others then are wrong?
What's the chance that any of them are actually right?
What's the chance one of them is right and you by good fortune just happened to score the right one?

Lets say your religion is right.
Does it mean it's ok to murder all these people while you're scheming how your going to get rid of them all and take all the land?
Your religion doesn't condone murder does it?
- Or does it make exceptions for Israel?

Tell me what did your bible teach you exactly?
- I'm really not sure this is the right place to go off-topic.
And from what I see, people just lose all sense of themselves if they read too much of that book.

So, no more arguments to settle, anyone?

It's a real shame the shameful situation will continue indefinitely and more and more people are going to continue to be killed for no real good reason.

The borders of Israel, AC, is where their soldiers are holding the ground. Sinai was once part of Israel, but they gave it back to Egypt when the Egyptian dictator got sick and tired of trying to crush Israel, and found that the Israelis would do business and give the Sinai back if he signed a peace treaty with them.

But you don't have to worry about the majority Arab Muslim view of where Israel's borders are. As far as the Muslims are concerned, Israel does not exist at all and it must be exterminated. That has always been their position for a very good religious reason. Where the armies of Allah have conquered, that is Muslim land forever. Al Qaida and ISIS have even made a territorial claim on Spain. I find it incredible that people like yourself who think that you are morally and intellectually superior to the other classes in society, actually support the Muslims in their good old fashioned religious war of conquest.

If the Australian government wants to resume the land that your home sits on to extend a highway bypass, or build an airport, AC, they can do just that. But you seem to think that the Israeli government can not do the same thing to it's own citizens within their own country?

Before you huff and puff and claim that "Palestinian" land does not belong to the Israelis, let me say that I agree with you in principle. But nor does Israeli land belong to the Muslim Arabs, but they would not agree with us. As far as they are concerned, all of Israel is Muslim.

Now, when you have an enemy devoted to nothing less than your total extermination, then making your enemies lives miserable, and driving them out of the territory that your soldiers occupy, makes great military sense. Just ask the Muslims. They have been doing it to everybody else for 1400 years, yet they scream when the boot is on the other foot. And you support the Muslims and their dreams of Islamic religious domination and expansion?

Ama-a-a-a-azing

The right to self determination, isn't a religious right, and was recognised prior to Israel's establishment as a morern nation.
Don't try to conflate one for the other.

- It would make no difference if they were Tibetan llamas, African pygmies, or West Pupuan cannibals.

You also seem to forget one thing about this mess itself, you fool.
All this crap started, and continues for one reason only.
- 'God gave it to them'.

Don't forget that part when you're criticising the other religions.

Hi Armchair Critic, Difference is Jewish people ONLY want Israel.

Muslims want 100% of the planet, including Australia & will engage in UN-holy Jihad 24/7/365 until 100% of all people on the planet are either Muslim, enslaved or dead.

SR

You are a mendacious and vile troll with the ethics of a sewer rat. your claim that Likud has not changed a jot over 22 years yet Hamas has done so in 5 in spite of frequent statements to the contrary, then you either have no problem lying through your teeth or are too stupid to live unassisted.

Anyone that so clearly supports a murderous and tyrannical organisation such as Hamas is despicable.

Hi Armchair Critic, Difference is Jewish people ONLY want Israel.

So that makes it all ok?
Sounds like your saying that it's ok for Israel to murder people.
- You'd better pray.

Hi Armchair Critic, Politics is about choosing between the lesser evil...

Leftism & Islam are the two most evil religious cults in world history.

But you already knew that anyway, didn't you?

Hi Armchair Critic,
"Politics is about choosing between the lesser evil...
Leftism & Islam are the two most evil religious cults in world history.
But you already knew that anyway, didn't you?"

Choose...
Why would you want to choose evil for?
- Doesn't your bible say it would be better to cut your own hand off or something?

"Leftism & Islam are the two most evil religious cults in world history."
So what if I said "What about Satanism and Luciferianism - wouldn't they be worse in your view?"

I think there's pro's and cons to all religions.
I think there's pro's and con's to everything.
I don't think any of the religions are perfect.
They're all flawed in their own way, on a basis of their own merits.
They all contain potentially dangerous ideology and beliefs;
People can take their religious beliefs too far, whatever religion, whatever belief;
- And justify doing terrible things for those religions and beliefs.
- Christians aren't excluded by no means.

Same with political beliefs, environmental beliefs, racial beliefs, sexual beliefs or whatever;

I don't like progressives, it's like a celebration of the mentally unwell
- But occasionally (and its not often) the left does make an argument that holds merit.
Way down at the core of the issue, (which they've always completely overblown), is a valid argument.
- But only sometimes.

Some of the rants on SKY channel from conservatives
Well it's like they're in a competition trying to prove they're just as batty.
- they're not, but I feel like they're trying pretty hard.

Do you want me to criticise Islam? ok fine
I'm happy to criticise both sides for their religious beliefs;
- If anyone thinks I'm being unfair about it.

What The West Needs To Know About Islam | William J. Federer
http://youtu.be/-YpJjRzQDIM

Hi Armchair Critic, Satanism + Luciferianism = Left Wing Religion or Leftism or the Leftist Religious Cult & is without a shadow of doubt, the most evil (or least perfect) religion in world history.

Traditional Christianity is without a shadow of doubt, the least flawed, or least imperfect, or most positive religion in world history.

Leftists have NEVER uttered anything other than lies.

But you already knew that didn't you?

Dear imacentristmoderate,

Lol. What a little troll you are.

So the Christian driven holocaust was just a slight abberation then? Tell tat to the millions of Jewish victims whose deaths were overseen by soldiers wearing belts adorned with Gott mit uns ("God with us").

How about the first Crusade?

“Many Muslims sought shelter in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, and the Temple Mount area generally. According to the Gesta Francorum, speaking only of the Temple Mount area, "...[our men] were killing and slaying even to the Temple of Solomon, where the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles..." According to Raymond of Aguilers, also writing solely of the Temple Mount area, " in the Temple and porch of Solomon men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins." Writing about the Temple Mount area alone, Fulcher of Chartres, who was not an eyewitness to the Jerusalem siege because he had stayed with Baldwin in Edessa at the time, says: "In this temple 10,000 were killed. Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared."
Wikipedia

So much for your positive religion.

What flavoured koolaid is it this week?

Dear SteeleRedux,

LOL what a ruling, left wing, elitist troll you are.

So NO german christians were against the Nazis in Germany, is that what you are saying?

Who did Kevin Rudd name as his hero?

Protestant theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer who left safety in America, to return to Germany & oppose Hitler, but you already knew that didn't you?

So you are quoting from wikipedia now?

ALL of the Christian Crusades were a "counter attack" or defensive action after centuries of violent islamic jihad, but you already knew that didn't you?

Parts of Southern Europe were occupied by violent islam for centuries, but you already knew that didn't you? The word "slave" comes from slav, as in slavic people, whom the Ottoman Empire preferred as slaves, especially in the Emperor's harem, but you already knew that didn't you?

Try reading a history book NOT written by a left wing humanities academic after WW2 & you might learn some factual information.

You ask: "So you are quoting from wikipedia now?"

Mate, I even put Wikipedia under the quote. Why is this even a question?

Let me quote further from it. This is regarding Martin Luther whose teachings are still very much part of the mainspring of German Christianity.

"In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth." They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine." The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ...". He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them". Luther claims that Jewish history was "assailed by much heresy", and that Christ swept away the Jewish heresy and goes on to do so, "as it still does daily before our eyes." He stigmatizes Jewish Prayer as being "blasphemous" and a lie, and vilifies Jews in general as being spiritually "blind" and "surely possessed by all devils.""

Hitler's book Mein Kampf was an absolute best seller in Christian Germany making him a millionaire with the proceeds. So you found a couple who unlike you hadn't drunk the Koolaid. What of it?

Dear SteeleRedux, What an evil animal you are...

1, The FIRST response from EVERY leftist i have ever debated is to debunk 100% of ALL wikipedia content i have ever quoted to them on the basis that wikipedia is fake news.

So wikipedia is a credible source of information, if you quote from it & an unreliable source of information, if i, or any other centrist conservative quotes from it, is that what you are saying?

2, 1543 is over 400 years ago. The PROTEST-ant Reformation & enlightenment continued on for MANY years after that. It was a process which created western civilisation over time & perfected modern western democracy by about the early 1800s.

3, EVERYTHING you would claim to be good was invented or created by PROTEST-ant Christians about 200 years ago, but of course you already knew that, didn't you?

4, The USSR was Christian. ALL communist hell holes were Christian, Buddhist or some other mainstream religion before left wing religion took over. Communist China promotes Christianity in China too, but you already knew that didn't you?

Why do you support devil worship?

Wikipedia can be useful.

I can trace Jewish Ashkenaz Synagogue back to Thesslonika in 1376

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Thessaloniki

Hi Armchair Critic...

There are wikipedia pages that change daily as dishonest people delete embarrassing, factual information & honest people put the embarrassing, factual information back onto the wikipedia page, but you already knew that didn't you?