Peter – If there is no God who created us then the only alternative is that we just unintentionally happened to come into existence.

If we have unintentionally happened into existence then there is no ultimate purpose for our existence.

If there is no purpose for our existence then things are not meant to be one way or another.

If things are not meant to be one way or another then nobody can do anything that is “right” or “wrong”.

Neither can there be any goal toward which we are meant to “progress”.

In your bio at the end of your article you describe yourself as an “ethicist”. In a godless universe no one can do right or wrong so there can be no meaningful ethics.

Yes, of course we can have laws but there is no necessary connection between law and morality. Just because a law declares an act to be “wrong”, that does not make it immoral.

No, if there is no God, then the teaching of Jesus and Christianity is just so much hot air as is the teaching of any “ethicist”, including yourself.

If you are a rational atheist, “ethics” is simple: just do whatever you think you can get away with. End of story.

The contents of this book which has an amusing title provide all the evidence/arguments re the existence of The Living Divine Reality.
http://www.dabase.org/proof.htm

The author provides a comprehensive critique of both adolescent scientism and the essentially childish, even infantile persuasions promoted by institutional exoteric Christian-ISM.

Christian-ISM being a set of half-baked ideas about what we are as human beings and the nature of Reality altogether.

This book titled Religion & Reality too: http://global.adidam.org/books/religion-reality

This reference provides an Illuminated Understanding of what we are as human beings, and a comprehensive set of guidelines re how to live a fully authentic and truly moral way of life.
http://www.adidam.org/teaching/aletheon/truth-life

"If we have unintentionally happened into existence then there is no ultimate purpose for our existence."
Why should there be?

Precisely ateday.

If there is no God our lives are ultimately completely meaningless. We just happen to come into being for no reason, live a number of years for no reason, and then die and go into oblivion.

JP. That probably sums it all up pretty well.
David

Daffy Duck and most of the other commentators are correct. The human race came into this world as accidents . We have no purpose. We are not obliged to decide this purpose, but we, the human race , has worked one out. It is called religion . But we can go further, and have tried to put that into measurable action . We have developed a discipline, titled it morality, and written about it since the time of the ancient Greeks. Actually since the time of King Solomon, ,about 1000 BC. Jesus Christ was also a contributor. as were the Jains, the Hindus, and the Buddhists . In short, it is that our overall purpose in life, should be to help those who need help, and above all not to harm any other human being. We are somewhat along that path, witness all the Christian places to help those who need help, But only somewhat; there is much evil in the world ...I am Peter Bowden, the writer of the original article

Perhaps there is something wrong with me, but I have never discovered the meaning of life or any reason for human existence. I believe some people enjoy life, and wouldn't be dead for quids; but really, nothing would be lost if we had never existed.

The thing is Peter, if morality is just something people have “made up”, then there is no basis for claiming that one made up morality is “right” and another made up morality is “wrong”.

You seem to like the made up morality that says we should help rather than harm people. But other people, such as Hitler, made up a morality that allowed him to say that killing the Jews was right.

You probably don’t like Hitler’s made up morality but please tell me why your made up morality is “right” and his is “wrong”.

In a godless universe of made up moralities there is no standard against which you can compare such moralities, so all made up moralities are equally valid and invalid.

Hence , if there is no God, then Peter Bowden, Buddha, Jesus, and everyone else is no better or worse a person than Hitler.

I mostly agree that the alleged teaching of the Rabbi, i.e., Jesus Christ, as the golden rule of, do unto others as you would be done unto! Are right and never more important in daily practise, than now!

As for God? You either believe in intelligent design or magic! No other cogent choices are available or credible!

Because even with all there is or was ever made? From nothing you get nothing! Even if you have/had, trillions of trillions of tons of it!

Moreover, consider this immutable LAW! Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, merely transformed

Or that everything in the entire known universe including you and I only exist, as physical elements, as transformed vibrating, just below light speed, energy!

I mean if the sheer scale of the visible stars which are greater in their trillions than all the grains of sand on all the beaches on this minute planet, does not tell you something about the wonder of creation! And indeed the intelligence responsible for it, nothing ever will!?

Except when you have to face it and account for your miraculous life it gave you and how you spent it?

If there is no God, then I don't exist and you are merely a figment of my overactive imagination!

Wait for it, you'll get it eventually? Even if it didn't part the hair on the way through?

Take care and stay safe.
Alan B.

Peter is typical of the irrational atheist who spend so much time arguing against a God they don't believe in. Like Dawkins and others they know He is the One they will stand before and be found completely wanting. Instead of shaking their puny fist they would be better off finding mercy through Jesus Christ. They are typical tantrum throwers who throw away all logic in denying their Creator and Judge.

Call me crazy, but I reject the idea that if there is no God, then there is no meaning to life.

Granted I also know that God exists, but even if He didn't, life is full of purpose. Filled with roles and responsibilities, hopes and goals, family and community, as well as a cause and effect tapestry of social interaction.

That last one should give meaning to life regardless of finding God or not. We live with our neighbors and they live with us. How you get along and contribute to each other's lives gives meaning to life (if you get along with them), or it takes meaning and purpose away if you don't get along with them.

Therefore the two greatest purposes in life 1) to find God and 2) to love your neighbor, would still have the purpose of loving your neighbor's even if you never find God.

To Peter Bowden.

Thank you for considering the topic enough to look into it further yourself. However if I can make a suggestion, I would suggest to look for God on your own to see if you can find Him. This goes beyond researching what others have said or what they have believed and concluded, and goes in the direction of looking for God in your own search.

Many people have found God in many different ways, from purely philosophical pondering a like the people you've gathered ideas from. To direct a observations of the world around us leading to a conclusion that God must exist. To even people having one or more events in their life where God intervened in their life in some way or another.

If you want to consider this topic further, I can suggest a few starting points for searching for God, and seeing if you can find Him. If not, that's your call too.

Has anyone ever noticed that none of the usual Christian mumblings about the nature of Reality ever talk about or refer to Consciousness, or Light which is the Energy of Consciousness. Which is quite strange because these two are THE fundamental aspects of our Existence-Being.

Some more references on the nature of Reality as Indivisible Conscious Light.
http://global.adidam.org/books/ancient-teachings The Ancient (non-dual) Reality Teachings.

This book was also published with the title Reality Itself Is All The God There Is. Among other things the above book provides an Illuminated Understanding of Nagarjuna's Mahayanavimsaka

This references provides an earlier expanded Understanding of Nagarjuna's Mahayanavimsaka. http://www.beezone.com/nagarjuna/mahayanavimsakaadida.html

The West of course does not have a non-dual philosophical or Spiritual Tradition, nor does it have a Living Spiritual Tradition (although many back-to-the-past "catholic" traditionalists like to pretend so)

This site provides multiple more-than-references on the paradoxical nature of Quantum Reality. http://spiralledlight.wordpress.co

Not Now. Soon – yes, of course people can make up their own meaning for life just as they can make up their own morality.

But just as with made up morality, made up meaning lacks any substance or authority.

If one person can make up meaning for their life then so can every other person and those meanings may be quite different.

What is to be done when those different meanings come into conflict? One person may see meaning in helping and loving their neighbour whereas another person may see meaning in just getting as much for themselves as they can and too bad for everybody else.

Whose meaning is “right”? Neither one is, because they are both just made up.

My point is that in a godless universe there is no ultimate meaning for our existence. We just happened unintentionally into existence for no purpose. Making up personal meaning does not change that.

To JP

Perhaps it would be a good idea to identify how to judge a purpose. What would you judge it against, or identify a purpose that works, one that doesn't, or even which ones work better then others. One way to compare different people's idea of purpose is looking at those purposes in action, and which ones are self motivating or more often give a person a drive to fulfill it. If there's other ways to gauge purpose I'm open for suggestions. However, I think most everything can be judged on it's merits. Self identified purposes as well.

From my observation, and it could be missing something; but from what I've seen of people, those who seem to have the most purpose to fulfill, and the most motivation to fulfill them are those who get their purpose from the people around them.

-To provide and care for your family.
-To seek justice for those that have been harmed
-Or to strive in any meaningful relationship, and live for your spouse, for your brothers and sisters, or for your close friends.

These type of purposes, seem to have the greatest drive to push forward and move past frustrations and set backs. And these all share a common quality. A love for those they are taking purpose for. It's with that in mind that I think the greatest purpose people can find is to love their neighbor's and gain purpose from that.

The only purpose that seems equal in measure is to find God. But for those who do not find Him, there is still the purposes and responsibilities to each other that act as stronger and better motivating forces then purposes without other people in mind.

I think we can identify what purposes work better then other purposes by looking at the people who strive with that purpose in mind. Then compare one population of people with that purpose to another population that lack that purpose or have a different one.

To Daffy Duck.

Maybe you're just not listening when Christians open up with their views of the nature of the world around them. Everyone that I've heard that believe God is real and are Christian as well, have that woven into the fabric of their view of the world around them.

Great energy, or great consciencousnes, are very little compared to God.

Let me explain. With the perspectives that we are just a collective conscienceness, robs any recognition that there is a greater force out there then just ourselves. With the perspectives of a great energy or a great force, those rob us from the realization that there's an interaction at work between us and God, and that He does care enough to be near us, and be aware of us.

On the other hand with the acknowledgement that God is the creator and sustainer of the world, you have a completely different dynamic. People live with the understanding that God made the world, and made everything from the laws of physics to psychology of the mind. With that as part of their understanding you have things like, "If God is with us, who can be against us." And to seek God (and find Him) as part of their life purpose. These seem to shout loudly how Christians see the reality of the world.

Why can't we call God by his real name-Evolution ! It was only people who realised that humans need to be led in order to function as a group, who invented Religion as a highly effective control mechanism which is badly needed considering the flaws of human nature !

Something lies at the origin of Creation. What? is the sixty-four dollar question.

We will never know the origin of Creation but there is a question we can answer and has been answered: Can we justify a belief in God? And the answer has been shown to be NO.

Individual – if evolution is true, then there can be no such thing as “flaws in human nature”. Things just happen to evolve the way that they do and there is no right or wrong way that they are meant to be – they just are.

If a person accepts evolution then logically they have to reject belief in objective morality and ultimate meaning.

evolution is basically the fairytale for those who deny the obvious.

evolution is basically the fairytale for those who deny the obvious.
runner,
On the contrary, the hypocrisy of religion is rather obvious wouldn't you say ? Faith has absolutely zero to do with what religion dictates to us. I have no problem with faith but I simply cannot accept religion.

To JP

Good point. If evolution is the highest authority, then there are no human flaws, no reason for morality. Things just are.

To Individual

I've said this before (though probably not to you), and I'll probably say it again. God is real, and if I can find Him, then so can you.

As for evolution being God. Not even close.

Regarding religion and faith, I'm glad you recognize there's flaws in humanity that religion addresses. (Sometimes addresses anyways). If I can ask though, what do you mean when you say you have no problem with faith, but have an issue with religion? Do you have spiritual beliefs outside of believing in God, and just have an issue with those that have faith in God? Or is this just that you reject the leaders religious, or reject that books written in a religion can't be true. (Such as the bible, the writings of Confusous, or the musings written from religious leaders and thinkers).

When it comes to religion and faith there is an overlap. Many people have their faith through their religion. If they have faith and are religious as well, do you reject their faith? Regardless of religion, God is real. He's worth searching for and finding.

We all have faith in all manner of things, some of which are real and some, like God, which are imaginary. We also have hope about a lot similar things. Some people hope that when they die they will go to heaven. Most Christian burials services seem to use the expression "sure and certain hope", that is an oxymoron if ever I have heard one.
David

To David.

When someone says God is imaginary, it means they haven't looked for God. And more then that it often means they ignore times that show that God is there. It becomes a philosophy that overrules reality. To put it another way, it's the blind leading the blind.

I'll say it again. If I can find God, then so can you.

The current Dalai Lama is quoted as having said that the purpose of life is to be happy. In becoming truly happy, one lets go of everything such as fear, expectations, judgement, envy etc. None of which requires a God. He / she / it simply doesn't exist. "God" is a man-made construct.

To Aries54,

Happiness is fleeting and fickle. And the pursuit of one person's happiness sometimes comes at the cost of robing someone else of theirs. Though I'm sure the Dalia Lama has a philosophy of what it means to be happy is to let go of everything else, that isn't a purpose for life. That's a coping tatic to deal with life.

God being real can be justified. And He is justified often in people's lives. He interacts in the lives of many people who seek Him out. That is something much more then just a man made construct.

Not_Now.Soon,I have said this before, and I will say it again. "if God is such a loving father" as you God botherers all seem to claim, where was he when his "Only begotten son" was languishing on the cross calling out "Why hast thou forsaken me." The obvious answer which seems to evade all you people is that "THERE IS NO GOD". End of story.
Believe me when I say that I have personally looked for clues as to his existence but none can I find. I fact, quite the contrary when you look at what has happened particularly with the Catholic Church over the centuries. It is hard to imagine a more Godless pack of barstards.(sic)
David

To David,

What clues for God have you looked into?

That is the problem. It is very hard to find clues for something when it only exists in the imagination of others. I have lived with a schizophrenic for several years and I am probably an expert in that area. I reckon half the books in the Bible were written by schizophrenics.
Stay safe, keep taking your medicine.
David

So David,

When you say you've personally looked into the clues for God existing, what you mean is that you've done nothing at all? I'm asking because if you actually have looked and came up short maybe I can give you some direction. If you haven't even tried through, perhaps you should try first and see how that goes. If you want direction I can try to help. Prayer is not a habit for mental patients, maybe you should try it. For that matter though nor is meditation for mental patients, but that's a different topic. I've never heard of someone saying those who meditate have schizophrenia, yet several people here seem to think any church goer is one. Go figure. *eyeroll*

I'm doing well and staying safe, no medicine is needed, thanks for the concern. You stay safe as well. Keep your hands washed, and stay sane in this world wide cabin fever time.

I love you, Peter Bowden. I wish I could write like that!
Would you take up the challenge to do some more research on Evolution and give us your thoughts?
Do you agree that maybe we can never know what moves Life? Remember: we were offered life in Paradise, but then we were declared unfit and banished! So, here we are.. not knowing.
I have lived in both camps, holding the Christian and Atheist beliefs, and come to the conclusion that Life is nothing like that. In my view, we are a Scientific Experiment. Call it Nature.
Are we, like the Corona virus, existing in a petri-dish? Left to our own devices to either survive all sorts of circumstances and become super-organisms capable of running the universe, or to succumb and die out like the dinosaurs as if we never existed?
Of course, Life is precious to us - we are IN it. That is why we are who we are and do what we do. We have been mud-crawlers, tree huggers and moon-walkers. We wage wars on each other and manipulate commercial and political dealings for our own benefit.
But … Nature gave us also insight into what ‘could’ be. DO better things, and you will FEEL better. And BELIEVE that you can make things better may spur us up to DO better things.
I wish I could write like you, Peter. But I hope you get the gist of it?
Christina

God bless you all.

Dear Peter,

If you are looking for some God out there, separate from yourself, then indeed no such thing exists.

---

Dear JP,

You brought beautiful observations, thank you.

One point though:

«My point is that in a godless universe there is no ultimate meaning for our existence.»

It is nonsensical to speak of a "godless universe", akin to speaking of a "square triangle" or "dark light". The error is in assuming that our, as well as the world's, seeming existences are separate and real, whereas both are only reflections of God. In other words, "godless universe" is like "sourceless reflection".

Think of the sun reflected in the ocean and then in a bucket: one reflection is huge, the other small, but ultimately both reflect the one and same sun. The reflections depend on the sun, but the sun does not depend on its reflections. The reflections are temporary but the sun is unaffected when they are gone.

---

Dear Aries and Not_Now.Soon,

It seems that both of you fail to understand the Dalai-Lama's statement: If one is only happy "because of...", then their happiness is shaky and temporary. Once whatever-it-is they depend on for happiness is extinguished, there goes their happiness too. If one is able to stop depending on changeable things for their happiness, only then their happiness can be everlasting.

Everything in the world changes, but if one can realise that beyond this world of changes is a pure, absolute, unborn, unchanging and undying Reality, then they may call it 'God'. Being truly happy is therefore synonymous with finding God!

The Dalai-Lama then explains at length why one can only find God by letting go of everything else such as fear, expectations, judgement, envy etc.

---

Dear Daffy,

«The West of course does not have a non-dual philosophical or Spiritual Tradition»

"I and the Father are one.” [John 10:30]

To Yuyutsu

You said:

<<The Dalai-Lama then explains at length why one can only find God by letting go of everything else such as fear, expectations, judgement, envy etc.>>

Can you reference where he goes into an explaination on this. I've recently googled Dalai Lama and happiness being the purpose of life. What Igot back from Google is an article about compassion and loving one another. Not about letting go of fear, expectations, ect.

Here's the link for what I've found.
http://upliftconnect.com/dalai-lama-what-is-the-purpose-of-life/

The thing about this article is that though it starts out talking about the purpose of life is to be happy, it goes into the subject with love and compassion being the best route for this and why. It could be simplified to say the purpose of life if to love one another (to love your neighbor) and that as a side effect of this purpose is to be happier and sustain healthier reactions to the world around us.

If you can post where you've found the Dalai Lama talking about the purpose of happiness with the explaination of giving up expectations and everything else I'd appreaciate the reference. Without a better explaination, that approach (to let go of expectations, fears judgments...) just sounds like trying to buffer a person away from the world and not get hurt by it. A coping mechanism instead of a purpose of life. Happiness is fleeting and fickle, but love for others I agree with the Dalai Lama that that is a sustainable purpose that can help with happiness as well.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

Thank you for the beautiful article. It is worth reading a few times because the Dalai-Lama chooses his words carefully and every time you read it carefully you will discover new layers. I think that even this very article hints at letting go of fears, judgements and expectations, because universal love and compassion are practically impossible otherwise.

Happiness is fleeting and fickle only if it depends on fleeting things. There is however the inner joy that does not depend on anything. Nothing can separate you from this joy because this joy is you - not you as a human, but your true essence. As long as you identify yourself with a limited human-being, many things can cloud your happiness, such as fear and expectations: whoever is limited cannot be truly happy, because something is always missing. Love and compassion help loosening this identification with the limited.

As a Buddhist, the Dalai-Lama does not use the concept of God, but is no less related to the actuality of God than anyone else, just using an alternate terminology. Attempting to translate his words into Christian terms:

Ubi caritas et amor - Deus ibi est!
(wherever charity and love are - there God is)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1fIBOC3SxM

On two types of happiness - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlUI1_J8D68
On negative emotions - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUfBiDSUjDM
On expectations - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgdkHcLNCSc

To Yuyutsu.

The song you posted sung a section in the bible that talks about love. And in it it both describes what love is and what it isn't. But before that it also lists several achievements that a person might attain, and says with that that without love, those things are worthless.

Love is the purpose, Yuyutsu. Not happiness. Being a good person and having a good mindset is a goal to reach for and to work towards, that is a purpose people can have also, which was what the Dalai Lama talked about in the link about the two types of happiness. That's something to strive for, and the result often is that they will be happier if they can accomplish it. But the goal of being a better person is what's being worked on. That is the purpose.

However the two greatest purposes in life are to find God, and to love your neighbor. Both of these things have great amount of benifits that come with them. From happiness, to stability in one's life, to stronger character in a person. Finding God and loving one another result those things. Better still, when combined, being compassionate helps with finding God and being able to obey His teachings in the bible. And in the same way when a person finds God, and seeks Him. They are strengthened to be a better person then they were without God. Finding God helps a person be more compassionate and to resist sins and be a better person as a whole.

(Continued)

(Continued)

As to finding God. You know you and I disagree on this. You say to look inwards and it may take many lifetimes to find. I know that God is not just a part of myself, but that He is someone I can rely on. Someone who can save and restore a person, and do so when they couldn't do it for themselves.

Have a good one Yuyutsu. Hope you find God at least once in your life. But here is some encouragement. As a kid, When I was in need and in prayer, God comforted me. A few other times in my life I know I've found God again. It isn't something that you need multiple life times to achieve and to eventually become part of God's essence once again. You can find Him in this life and cling to Him as best that you can while still alive. After all if I can find Him, when I was a child, then so can anyone else too.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain... to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and blessing"

One might think, "isn't this too much?", "riches and honour together?", "power and wisdom together?", etc. "They don't go too well", "let me only ask for Wisdom" or "Let me only ask for Blessing"...

Yet in God, all good things combine, in God nothing is to be shy or ashamed about, in God there is not a trace of undeservedness.

One who perfects ANY of the following (among others) qualities has also perfected all the others: Love, Wisdom, Truth, Peace, Steadfastness, Compassion, Goodness, Charity, Purity, Surrender to God, Contentment, Knowledge of God... and Happiness too.

Now to attain all this, one has to start somewhere, perhaps pick just one or two or three of the above qualities and work on them. Perfecting these will, in time, perfect the others as well.

I suggest that Jesus knew his disciples and what would best forward their spiritual journey, so for them he prescribed - Love!

For example, due to their Jewish culture of the time, attempts at Purity or Surrender to God might have led them to fanaticism instead; for Charity, they were too poor (except for Mary Magdalene); Wisdom and Knowledge were beyond these simple peasants and fishermen; these low-class people had no clue of Happiness - but Love suited them well, so Jesus taught them to Love.

The Dalai-Lama, OTOH, lives in a very different culture, a Buddhist culture: they have no concept of God, certainly not of following His Laws, but unlike Jews (and many Westerners), their desire for happiness is not suppressed at all, they have no shame of it, therefore the Dalai-Lama recognises Happiness as probably the best attribute they should progress with, thus tells them how to achieve true lasting happiness as opposed to just the small and fleeting happiness they may get when fulfilling their selfish or sensual desires. Once they achieve true Happiness, they will also know God, even while they may still have no name to call Him.

[Continued...]

[...Continued]

They will also be Loving everyone, even without the need to rationalise why. Perhaps they will just explain that "Happiness is infectious"!

«As to finding God. You know you and I disagree on this. You say to look inwards and it may take many lifetimes to find.»

You never know how much homework you have already completed in previous lifetimes, so never despair: work hard, study hard, concentrate hard, love hard - and this may well be your final lifetime!

As for looking inwards, this is something I probably recommend to most contemporary people who instead look outward at glass screens. But this does not mean that they should gaze at the in-side of their navels: those who are not yet ready to really look inside and beyond their minds, rather than at their inner-navels, would actually do better to look at nature and at other people and animals and their sufferings, concentrating on service until such time that they are ready to turn their gaze inward.

You had glimpsed God - what a blessing!, but still through some veil, thinner and clearer than the veils we all see God through every moment, but still a veil. Keep praying, practice Love and Purity, Wisdom and Steadfastness, until by His grace, His Glory shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together, Amen!