Hi Ozpen,

No, I can't create tempests or leviathans, as God blustered at Job in his attempt to make Job grovel (check out the last couple of pages). Gravity and the universe were there before we came along and will be still there when we've gone. None of that needs a god. We're alone, in that sense, in the universe with all its buzzing, swirling physical laws.

So we (should) do the best we can while we can, hopefully putting more back in than we take out, and using whatever talents we have to make the world a better place for those who come after us.

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth,

<<Gravity and the universe were there before we came along and will be still there when we've gone. None of that needs a god.>>

That's one point on which you and I agree with God: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1).

Gravity and the universe were there before human beings were created (Genesis 1:26 ff). God agrees.

So the heavens and the earth had already been created by God (from nothing) before Adam and Eve.

You have not presented any evidence how gravity and the universe came into existence. Yours is a materialistic, deterministic world.

I find it irrational to think that God has provided the evidence to contradict your view (see Romans 1:18-25; Psalm 19) but you have closed yourself off from pursuing that evidence.

<<I can't create tempests or leviathans, as God blustered at Job in his attempt to make Job grovel>>

That's a red herring that you raise by cherry-picking content of a few verses. Get real with your exegesis of any text.

<<We're alone>>

Are you making a truth claim with that statement? Can you verify it or is it only your opinion or an assertion?

Dear Loudmouth,

You opine we have “the obligation to be 'relatively special', to contribute more than we take from the world”.

Mate, aren't you falling into the same trap as the author? An obligation to whom? Ourselves? If so aren't we just looking after the 'selfish meme'?

Perhaps we are the only Earth based species to be inflicted with a sense of mortality and an appreciation of the infinite. The existential angst that has inspired writers like Camus and indeed even some of our biblical scribes have certainly produced the great religions and literature of our civilisations, much of it of course lost to time.

When we are only deemed special to ourselves then the degree of specialness by definition is severely restricted.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«Correct me if I'm wrong but based on what you've said, the four purposes in life all contribute to finding God.»

The aims of Righteousness and Liberation contribute to finding God.
The aims of Gain and Pleasure do not, in any normal sense.

«to care for one another is part of that to reach that goal.»

Yes: when you care for another, it helps you to see God in them.

«I'm coming at it from a completely different view.»

Which is absolutely fine: the reality of God can be seen from so many different angles/viewpoints, yet it is always the same God.

«the whole law from God rests on two concepts. To love God with all your heart, mind, and strength; and to love your neighbor as you love yourself.»

Succeed in any of the two and you have found God.
But can you?
Not without God's grace!
Still you should try, as hard as you can, inch by inch, fail 776 times and still try the 777's. As you do, your mind is being purified more and more, yet the final purification can only occur by God's grace.

«By knowing God, a person is better able to love their neighbor. By loving their neighbor, a person is taking care of most of the teachings from God that relate to how we are to treat others.»

Yes, but HOW do you know God? HOW do you love your neighbour? Succeed in any of these and you are done, then you fulfil the other as well. The fact is that we keep failing, that our love and knowledge remain partial and feeble without God's grace, yet we should keep trying, constantly and pray to God to support us in both.

«finding God is doable without having to be perfect ourselves»

You cannot perfect yourself by yourself, but you must TRY anyway. You are imperfect at the moment just before God's grace redeems you, then the next moment you are perfect. Upon finding God, your care for others becomes perfect too.

Hi NNS,

To paraphrase,

"You have not presented any evidence how any gods came into existence."

Either way, we're here and it's up to each of us to find purpose for our brief lives. I'm happy to contribute what I can to make other people's lives better before I feed the worms.

'Deterministic' ? Yes, according to the laws of physics. 'Materialistic' ? I suppose so, if it means coming to terms with living in a real world, free of magic and gods, and trying to make this material world a bit better before we leave it.

SR,

I meant an obligation, not just to ourselves, but to humanity and the planet as a whole, in whatever small ways we can. If we're special in any way, then it comes with those obligations. It's up to us, nobody and nothing else. Otherwise, there's nothing all that special about us.

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Loudmouth,

Call me dumb if you like but I'm going to ask what you believe the difference is between an obligation to ourselves and an obligation to humanity unless you are using ourselves as a singular rather than a collective term.

An obligation to the planet is an interesting one. Is it primarily because of the intrinsic value of it, or is it a sense of sharing it with other species, or is it so it continues to provide for the human race into the future?

But does these make us special? Does the way a herd of elephants collectively and actively looking after the young of the group engender a feeling that there is a sense of obligation involved? If not why assign this motivation to humans? Why can't this just be regarded as a basic instinct of higher mammals?

As to looking after the planet, looking after it from whom? Ourselves? If so why does our capacity to harm the planet make us special? Or is it when we try and repair or prevent from happening further damage to ecosystems caused by ourselves that we become 'special'?