The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Can Australia’s neighbours become good friends? > Comments

Can Australia’s neighbours become good friends? : Comments

By Peter West, published 30/8/2019

Thus far we have looked at countries which are possibly good neighbours. Is there a bad neighbour?

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 8
  7. 9
  8. 10
  9. All
Perhaps it would be wiser to consider other countries as neither friends nor enemies and recognise that nations have neither friends nor enemies. Countries have common interests and divergent interests. Hopefully a common interest is to avoid war and avoid destroying the environment. A divergent interest is the presence of Christianity in Australia and Islam in Indonesia. It would help if the inhabitants of both countries were to free themselves from religion.
Posted by david f, Friday, 30 August 2019 9:09:52 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Can Australia’s neighbours become good friends?

If Australians can behave in a more cultured & less exploitative manner when visiting Indonesia/Thailand/Philppines etc. then I'm certain our neighbours will be more than willing to become good friends.
Posted by individual, Friday, 30 August 2019 9:24:37 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
If our past was British, what are we now? A bunch of mongrels like the rest of the West, thanks to enforced multiculturalism.

What is a 'reliable neighbour'? New Zealand is mentioned; but how is NZ reliable? What good are they to us? They spend next to nothing on defence, and their idiot prime minister is always sneering at us and whining because we don't want Kiwi criminals here.

Papua New Guinea is a mendicant state, as are the Pacific islands, currently trying to rip us off even more, with fake rising sea level yarns. It won't be long before they will be in the China camp, despite their successful long term bludging on Australia. Most of them struggle to govern themselves. And Fiji is in the hands of a military coup-leading thug.

We need an even stronger alliance with America, military understandings with Indonesia, Japan, Singapore, Malaysia and the Philippines. Plus much more spending on defence
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 30 August 2019 9:56:01 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Impossible to say! We do have near northern neighbours who clearly se us as their rivals or future colonial conquests. And need to be handled with extreme care almost like porcupines making love if you catch my drift.

China is a different story and threatens our (culturally incompatible) near northern neighbours more than it does us? And because it sees the whole world as its sovereign territory/future empire.

Albeit, so do some Muslim philosophies. And some of them are between us and China.

Our best course is to befriend all we can and avoid those who don't want civil friendship.

We need to become an island of sanity in a world gone mad. And chart our own course and set this nation up to survive inevitable climate change. And much regional aggression!

We need to become self-sufficient in all we need and one of a very few countries where that's still possible from rubber to apples and everything in between. And possible with the right leadership. Just none of that which is in the current political contest!

God help my poor bugger country.
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 30 August 2019 10:27:18 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Don`t worry about it all too much Alan, like me, you probably won`t be around when the brown stuff really hits the fan.
Just relax in the knowledge that we are members of the luckiest generation that ever has, and ever will, lived to have enjoyed this, once, wonderful planet.
Posted by ateday, Friday, 30 August 2019 10:34:48 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
ateday,
For many the brown stuff has been hitting the fan for years now !
Posted by individual, Friday, 30 August 2019 3:46:09 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
david f,

<<A divergent interest is the presence of Christianity in Australia and Islam in Indonesia. It would help if the inhabitants of both countries were to free themselves from religion.>>

Are you inferring you have no religious beliefs yourself?

How are you going to 'free yourself' from any kind of religious belief. Are people who claim 'no religion' really free from religious beliefs?
Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 31 August 2019 11:07:49 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Peter,

Can the nation of Myanmar in South-East Asia be a 'good neighbour'?

Human Rights' Watch 2018 made this assessment of what is happening in Myanmar (formerly Burma):

"More than 14,500 Rohingya (Muslims) fled to Bangladesh between January and November 2018 to escape ongoing persecution and violence in Myanmar, joining almost 1 million others from 2017 and previous years in precarious, overcrowded camps. Conditions remain dire for the estimated 500,000-600,000 Rohingya still in Rakhine State. Refugees who arrived in Bangladesh in 2018 reported continuing abuses by Myanmar security forces, including killings, arson, enforced disappearances, extortion, severe restrictions on movement, and lack of food and health care. They also reported sexual violence and abductions of women and girls in villages and at checkpoints along the route to Bangladesh. Returnees to Myanmar faced arrest and torture by authorities. Over 4,500 Rohingya remained stuck in the Bangladesh-Myanmar border “no-man’s land,” subject to harassment by Myanmar officials and regular threats via loudspeaker to induce them to cross into Bangladesh", http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/burma

This murderous regime does not need our neighbourly support to continue its slaughter.

However, Australia does need to provide asylum for these refugees fleeing persecution and violence.

With this kind of information about this regime, I'm not of the view that Myanmar is doing what needs to happen to make it a good neighbour.
Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 31 August 2019 11:32:35 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Most of our neighbours are cupboard lovers. They will be our friends as long as we keep paying them.

Why on earth we ever gave aid to Indonesia who has more multi millionaires & billionaires than we do, is a total mystery to me.

It is impossible to buy friendship. You can buy smiles & handshakes, but watch your back if there is a better offer. We would be better off keeping our money at home, & using it to build some real strength.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 31 August 2019 11:37:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear OzSpen,

I have no religious beliefs myself. I do not believe in the afterlife, deity, deities, the messiah, nirvana, reincarnation or any of the other religious concepts that only exist in the human mind. I do not approve of suppression of religion as has been tried by various tyrannies. Hopefully as humans think critically they will free themselves from religion, but it is doubtful. If both Christianity and Islam disappeared it is likely that new forms of superstition would replace them as Christianity and Islam replaced the polytheistic superstitions. I think the best we can do is to separate religion and state so religion will not have its baleful influence on government and government will not use religion as another means of control.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 31 August 2019 12:54:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
better off keeping our money at home
Hasbeen,
Totally along my sentiments also.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 31 August 2019 5:28:55 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
david f.

<<I have no religious beliefs myself. I do not believe in the afterlife, deity, deities, the messiah, nirvana, reincarnation or any of the other religious concepts that only exist in the human mind.>>

You say you have no religious beliefs and then give some of them:

When you 'do not believe in the afterlife' you state that you have some kind of belief about what happens at death.
No deities? Do you worship any idols of materialism, sexuality, etc
By nature, human beings are egocentric, self-centred people. Do you say you do not have religious beliefs that support me, me and me?
You don't believe in nirvana or reincarnation, but what do you believe happens at death?
You say 'religious concepts ... only exist in the human mind'. There you have a very religious belief.

<<If both Christianity and Islam disappeared it is likely that new forms of superstition would replace them>>

You can't help yourself. Here you give us some more of your beliefs:

Religion amounts to 'new forms of superstition'.
From where did you gain that belief?

<<I think the best we can do is to separate religion and state so religion will not have its baleful influence on government and government will not use religion as another means of control.>>

That's the worst we could do because everyone of us has a world and life view through which we look at the lens of life. You have one and so do I. In a land of free speech, we need to speak up for the oppressed with a holistic world view.

Biblically, this is stated as: 'Speak up for people who cannot speak for themselves. Help people who are in trouble. Stand up for what you know is right, and judge all people fairly. Protect the rights of the poor and those who need help' (Proverbs 31:8-9).

You and I cannot operate in society without expressing our world views. Both you and I have done it in our posts.
Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 31 August 2019 6:10:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear OzSpen,

It is apparent that you must try to make people conform to your image of all-pervading superstition. What happens at death is that like the other animals our life is ended. There is no reason to think there is any more than that. I go by evidence. There is no evidence that religious concepts exist any place other than in the human mind. There is no evidence that religious beliefs are any more than superstition.

You and I have a right in a democratic society to express whatever opinions we feel like expressing. In my opinion we would be better off without religion. You apparently differ. May you go your way in peace.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 31 August 2019 6:32:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I don't know why religion has been raised in this discussion, but I find it highly amusing that David F can use the word 'evidence' when reasserting his well-known disbelief in God and an afterlife. Now, David might be right. But there is no 'evidence' that he is. But, as he is keen on evidence, where is his evidence that "What happens at death is that like the other animals our life is ended"? David has been around for a long time; he has had experience, but not, I suggest experience of dead beings, human or animal, detailing what happened after their departure from this mortal coil.

I'm a half-arsed Christian. I'm not sure if God exists, or if there's an afterlife; but I hope both exist - I cannot believe that this life is as good as it gets!
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 31 August 2019 8:04:36 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear OzSpen and ttbn,

One great thing about death. It has inspired some beautiful poetry.

Though one were strong as seven,
He too with death shall dwell,
Nor wake with wings in heaven,
Nor weep for pains in hell;
Though one were fair as roses,
His beauty clouds and closes;
And well though love reposes,
In the end it is not well.

Pale, beyond porch and portal,
Crowned with calm leaves, she stands
Who gathers all things mortal
With cold immortal hands;
Her languid lips are sweeter
Than love's who fears to greet her
To men that mix and meet her
From many times and lands.

She waits for each and other,
She waits for all men born;
Forgets the earth her mother,
The life of fruits and corn;
And spring and seed and swallow
Take wing for her and follow
Where summer song rings hollow
And flowers are put to scorn.

There go the loves that wither,
The old loves with wearier wings;
And all dead years draw thither,
And all disastrous things;
Dead dreams of days forsaken,
Blind buds that snows have shaken,
Wild leaves that winds have taken,
Red strays of ruined springs.

We are not sure of sorrow,
And joy was never sure;
To-day will die to-morrow;
Time stoops to no man's lure;
And love, grown faint and fretful,
With lips but half regretful
Sighs, and with eyes forgetful
Weeps that no loves endure.

From too much love of living,
From hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving
Whatever gods may be
That no life lives for ever;
That dead men rise up never;
That even the weariest river
Winds somewhere safe to sea.

Then star nor sun shall waken,
Nor any change of light:
Nor sound of waters shaken,
Nor any sound or sight:
Nor wintry leaves nor vernal,
Nor days nor things diurnal;
Only the sleep eternal
In an eternal night.
--Algernon Charles Swinburne
Posted by david f, Saturday, 31 August 2019 8:31:22 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
david f

you enjoy Algernon Charles Swinburne's poem even though it contradicts Jesus Christ and His teachings. Obviously you hate Light and love darkness as described by Scripture. Hopefully you humble yourself and come to your senses before you die.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 31 August 2019 10:20:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear runner,

Australia is a free country. In Australia a person is free to follow or reject any religious belief. I appreciate the freedom to live in Australia. You are free to believe in your superstition. I am free not to believe in your superstition. I hope you will come to your senses and appreciate Australian freedom. It's a great country!
Posted by david f, Sunday, 1 September 2019 3:23:05 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
David,

You apparently also believe that you have the freedom to insult people by referring to their faith and belief as "superstitious". Christianity has been around for over two millennia, and some very smart, level-headed and rational people have adhered to it,and still adhere to it. It is so powerful that many people fear it - Christians are now the most persecuted people in the world, even in so-called 'Christian countries'. You are free to believe or not believe anything you like - mainly because our freedoms are based on the Christian ethic. It's not brave to criticise something that you know respects your freedoms. Try talking the way you do in a Muslim country.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 1 September 2019 9:11:01 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear ttbn,

With the Inquisition in which people were tortured and persecuted for questioning Christianity, the slaughter of Christians who believed different versions of the religion, the Crusades which were not only against the Muslims but also slaughtered Jews, Byzantine Christians and Albigensians, enslaving people, the Holocaust in which the Nazis committed genocide in a country which accepted it due to centuries of Christian hatred for Jews you now claim a Christian ethic of religious freedom. What evidence is there for such an ethic? Some other religions are as intolerant as Christianity and have learned from Christians. Christian European powers have dominated the world. Now many of those former colonies have thrown off the yoke of the Christian powers and are following the Christian pattern of intolerance. Christianity and Islam are siblings in intolerance. Many enlightened people are rejecting religion altogether.

Some very intelligent, rational people did follow Christianity. Geniuses like Isaac Newton, William Shakespeare and Leonardo Da Vinci could not have held the positions that they held if they openly challenged Christianity. Christian universities were not open to non-Christians through most of history, and the torture chamber and the stake were the destination for those bold or foolish enough to question Christianity. Scientists such as Hypatia, Servetus and Bruno were murdered by Christians.

Our freedoms are not based on the Christian ethic. Questioning of the power of the church was the inheritance of the Enlightenment which influenced western governments to loosen the bonds of the church and allow freedom of religion. The men who wrote the US Constitution that mentions neither God nor Christ and enshrines religious freedom were men of the Enlightenment establishing a secular state. The secular state curbed the tyranny of Christianity. Now Christianity claims credit for freedoms which it opposed. One must laugh.

With a virgin having a baby, God in three parts, life after death and other nonsense what is Christianity but superstition? That’s an accurate description not an insult.

Many including me fear Christianity. I fear its return to power in our secular state. I don’t want the Dark Ages back.
Posted by david f, Sunday, 1 September 2019 1:09:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
OK, David. I'm not trying to change your mind. I just think that all people need to hear how they look and sound to others occasionally.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 1 September 2019 1:56:21 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
A lot of these comments seem fairly tangential to the discussion, if not completely irrelevant. Not to name any one person.

But back to the point West raised.

What do people think should be Australian Government's policy towards these countries:

Indonesia

Papua New Guinea

West Papua

Malaysia

Sri Lanka

Myanmar

Vanuatu

Solomon Islands

and how should Aussie kids be educated on these cultures and languages? If they learn anything apart from how to play "Fortnight" and similar!
Posted by Waverley, Sunday, 1 September 2019 3:33:50 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
david f.

<<With a virgin having a baby, God in three parts, life after death and other nonsense what is Christianity but superstition? That’s an accurate description not an insult.>>

You committed a Strawman Fallacy. It is fallacious reasoning. Instead of dealing with the issues one at a time, you substitute Christianity's actual position and arguments with your own distorted version to misrepresent the true position of Christianity. See: http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy

We can't have a rational discussion when you engage in such irrational thinking.
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 1 September 2019 5:56:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
How about asking can Australia be a good friend to its neighbours ?
Can selling out to them be a sign of good friendship or just callous greed ?
Posted by individual, Sunday, 1 September 2019 6:36:57 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
david f.

A presupposition is 'a thing tacitly assumed beforehand at the beginning of a line of argument or course of action' (Lexico/Oxford Dictionary 2019. s.v. presupposition).

<<your image of all-pervading superstition>>

That's your presupposition and not something based on evidence.

<<What happens at death is that like the other animals our life is ended>>

When I go into the butcher shop I don't have the option of choosing homo sapiens rib fillet. Why not if we are animals?

Again, you feed us your presupposition on human beings being like 'other' animals and that at death life ceases. You provided not a shred of evidence to support your theory. Surely that goes against your atheistic approach to life of basing your decisions on data.

Based on the evidence from the reliable Scriptures, you'll have a very different view one minute after your last breath. See: http://www.koorong.com/search/product/the-historical-reliability-of-the-new-testament-the/9780805464375.jhtml

<<I go by evidence>>

Yep! You use a filtered view of evidence. You have ignored the historical evidence in support of God's actions in history. As for the evidence of God in the universe, you throw that onto the untruth heap of 'I go by evidence'.

<<There is no evidence that religious concepts exist any place other than in the human mind>>

That's your presuppositional, censored world and life view speaking.

<<There is no evidence that religious beliefs are any more than superstition>>

Of course you'd reach that conclusion because you are not open to ALL of the evidence in our universe. Again religious beliefs = superstition is your presupposition.

You begin with anti-religious presuppositions and conclude with such a view. That's called a Begging the Question Logical Fallacy (Circular Reasoning), http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/53/Begging-the-Question

It's erroneous reasoning and we can't have a reasonable discussion when you use such a tactic.
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 1 September 2019 6:38:37 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What should be Australian Government's policy towards these countries:
Waverley,
I'd like to see reciprocal policies for a start. If an Australian can't own property in those countries then citizen from these countries can not acquire & own property here.
Aid to these countries should not be in money, only in materials & commodities manufactured here.
As soon as one of these countries starts to juggle options between China vs Australia, let them go with China. Australia can use the massive savings on boosting its Defence.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 1 September 2019 6:50:59 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
ttbn,

<<I'm a half-arsed Christian. I'm not sure if God exists, or if there's an afterlife; but I hope both exist - I cannot believe that this life is as good as it gets! >>

That's like being a kitty straddling the fence, https://www.reddit.com/r/Eyebleach/comments/cpff19/the_way_my_kitty_straddles_the_fence_he_does_this/
To be 'a half-arsed Christian' is a crude way of stating the agnostic case.

God does not believe in agnostics or atheists. He places 2 strong pieces of evidence before you to make you a theist but not a Christian. The first piece of theistic evidence is stated in poetic form in Psalm 19:1-6 (NIRV),

The heavens tell about the glory of God.
The skies show that his hands created them.
2 Day after day they speak about it.
Night after night they make it known.
3 But they don’t speak or use words.
No sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into the whole earth.
Their words go out from one end of the world to the other.
God has set up a tent in the heavens for the sun.
5 The sun is like a groom leaving the room of his wedding night.
The sun is like a great runner who takes delight in running a race.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens.
Then it moves across to the other end.
Everything enjoys its warmth.

Conscience is the second piece of evidence (Romans 2:14-15 ERV):

14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law.
15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.

Please submit an article to OLO, 'Why I'm unsure if God exists'.
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 1 September 2019 7:04:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It rises at one end of the heavens.
Then it moves across to the other end.
OzSpen,
So, what's past those ends of the heavens ?
Posted by individual, Sunday, 1 September 2019 7:21:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
SBS News said tonight - 1 September - that there were more protests in Papua being put down by the military. Indonesians seem to be getting local militia to cause trouble, just as they did in Timor Leste before and after the vote on independence.

Somehow people dying in Papua aren't as important as Americans being shot by yet another angry white male.

ABC news had stories about another shooting in the US, and all kinds of other stuff, but didn't mention these events.
Posted by Waverley, Sunday, 1 September 2019 7:53:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indonesians seem to be getting local militia to cause trouble,
Waverley,
These are highly provocative & inflammatory comments even though you state seems.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 1 September 2019 8:49:59 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
individual,

<<It rises at one end of the heavens. Then it moves across to the other end. So, what's past those ends of the heavens?>>

You didn't read my post carefully. I said my quote from Psalm 19 used 'poetic' language.

What the poet Psalms stated is exactly what I experience daily:

'God has set up a tent in the heavens for the sun.... It rises at one end of the heavens. Then it moves across to the other end. Everything enjoys its warmth'.

What's past those ends? That gets into a theological discussion of the first, second and third heavens but that's not for this thread.

The point of the Psalm is: 'The heavens tell about the glory of God'. When I look at the magnificence of God's universe and the heavenly realm I give God glory for who he is and what he has done to bring this universe into existence. If it were not for him, I wouldn't be breathing. He sustains the cosmos.

To glorify God means to confess His greatness as the Almighty God and give honour and praise to him through worship of Him.
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 1 September 2019 9:29:45 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
This is my response to ttbn, who said:
"I'm a half-arsed Christian. I'm not sure if God exists, or if there's an afterlife;"

As a Christian, I agree with you that "I cannot believe that this life is as good as it gets!" We believe that the afterlife will be more rewarding and less frustrating and more "good" than the life we experience here. To spend eternity with our Saviour and Lord is something Christians look forward to.

But to backtrack; you're not sure that God exists. To be brief, I DO believe that God exists, and here is why- In all the history of man, the only 2 conclusions we have come to about origins are that either 1) We were made by a spiritual being who exists outside of matter and time (which I adhere to)
Or 2) We are the result of some huge cosmic accident (macro evolution), in which case life is meaningless, futile and not worth living as there is nothing beyond the grave.

Recently whilst looking at the probability that component parts of a simple protein could assemble itself by accident, I was reminded that the chances are 1 in 10 with 80 zeros after it, or some even calculate 10 with 40,000 zeros following it. This is a number so large, it is greater than all the atomic particles in the cosmos. So if you were to believe we are here because of chance, the deal is I go out into the cosmos somewhere (maybe a dust cloud in a distant galaxy) and attach a sign with your name on it, to an electron, or a neutron on some atom particle somewhere. Then I come back and ask you ttbn, to guess which particle I have chosen. You get to think about where I might have been, and which atomic particle I might have chosen. And then you make your guess/announcement. And you only get ONE go at it. What do you think your chances are, of picking the very particle which I have previously chosen. To be continued...
Posted by Daleo, Sunday, 1 September 2019 9:43:56 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Continuing discussion with correspondent tbbn:

A distant possibility you say? Well that is the chance that even the beginnings of life evolved by chance. For me, it illustrates that possibility number 2 is impossible, which leads me to the conclusion that option #1 is the only answer, ie that there is a being out there we call God who is responsible for this life we lead.

So that is my reason for believing the life has meaning, and that purpose and meaning is found in the Christian God of the Bible.
Posted by Daleo, Sunday, 1 September 2019 9:45:45 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The Guardian is one of the few media covering events in Indonesia- East Timor- Papua New Guinea

This story is rather arresting:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/31/an-earthquake-racism-rage-and-rising-calls-for-freedom-in-papua
Posted by Waverley, Monday, 2 September 2019 11:30:54 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It's weird how many people ignore the article under discussion and just go on and talk about something completely unrelated. Unless I'm missing something here?

Meanwhile The Guardian continues to be the best journal covering the region to our north: students apparently killed by soldiers in Papua

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/02/west-papua-students-killed-by-militias-as-video-of-soldiers-firing-on-crowds-emerges
Posted by Waverley, Monday, 2 September 2019 4:08:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Waverley,

<<It's weird how many people ignore the article under discussion and just go on and talk about something completely unrelated.>>

This is an excellent point. It gets back to: Can we love or be friends of those with whom we disagree.

The Christian Scriptures address this. In the Old Testament the Jews were commanded by God to love their neighbours (Leviticus 19:18). The inference could be that they were not to love their enemies.

Jesus Christ changed that message, 'But to you who are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies! Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you' (Luke 6:27-28).

Jesus explained: 'If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Even the tax collectors do that. If you greet only your own people, what more are you doing than others? Even people who are ungodly do that. So be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect' (Matthew 5:46-48).

This is a humongous ethical shift if ever we are to get close to Australia's neighbours becoming our friends. Jesus' called upon his followers to practise love all the people - of PNG, the Solomons, Timor, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. It won't happen if we see a repeat of the Peter Dutton stubborn resistance to keeping the Tamil family out of Australia.

To extend unconditional love to our neighbours, including the Tamil family, it will be demonstrated in compassionate action towards them - 'Back to Bilo' where they have been integrated into a caring community.
Posted by OzSpen, Monday, 2 September 2019 6:36:45 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Daleo,

<<Recently whilst looking at the probability that component parts of a simple protein could assemble itself by accident, I was reminded that the chances are 1 in 10 with 80 zeros after it, or some even calculate 10 with 40,000 zeros following it.>>

What a splendid example to show that such a complicated design as for a simple protein requires, something or someone with such creative power. Chance happenings will not do it.

Now extend your example to a portion of the universe. The BBC reported: 'Today we are fairly confident that the Milky Way is probably between 100,000 and 150,000 light years across. The observable Universe is, of course, much larger. According to current thinking it is about 93 billion light years in diameter', http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160610-it-took-centuries-but-we-now-know-the-size-of-the-universe

That's only a fraction of the universe and it fits perfectly with the evidence God said we have to seek for examples of His existence: 'For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse' (Romans 1:20), http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+1&version=NIVUK
Posted by OzSpen, Monday, 2 September 2019 7:07:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Spencer,

I was not following your conversation closely, but I am glad that you support the Tamil family. Let us pray for their speedy return home to their community.

Regarding Leviticus 19:18, I am surprised that only two English translation got it right as "love thy friend" (Wycliffe Bible and Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible): nearly all English translation got it wrongly as "love thy neighbour" (but Good News Translation has it right for Matthew 5:43).

The Hebrew text is "VeAhavta LereAcha Camocha" (I placed a capital 'A' to indicate the 'e' and the 'A' are of separate syllables).
VeAhavta = and you should love
Le-ReA-Cha = to-'ReA'-yours
Camocha = as yourself
and 'ReA' translates as friend, companion, fellow, comrade, even sometimes as lover, but essentially as someone you spend time with, I think the English word 'fellow' fits best. Perhaps at the time when English translations started, people interacted mostly with their neighbours, but this is far from being the case today, nor while wandering in the desert without permanent homes.

I suppose that if we spend time with enemies, even if that time is spent fighting, then they become our fellows and we are to love them as well. The best of course is to stay away from bad company to begin with.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 2 September 2019 10:59:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade says we will pay Indonesia $331.3million in 2018-2019.

"We work in an economic partnership, supporting Indonesia's efforts to tackle inequality and maintain social stability, promote tolerance and pluralism, and counter violent extremism. We provide policy and technical advice that will improve the quality of Indonesia's investments in infrastructure, economic governance, human development and social policy, including in the area of law and justice."

Check out what we have been helping Indonesia do when it comes to Papua.
Posted by Waverley, Tuesday, 3 September 2019 9:45:13 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
PNG has been getting $1.2 million a day from Australia ever since Independence in 1975.
What has been achieved with that support ?

At least in West Papua the Indonesian Air Force provides free transport via Hercules aircraft for outlying villagers to bring their goods to town twice a week. Housing has suffered the same treatment as was much talked about here about indigenous housing in the recent past.
Many West Papuans occupy positions in the Govt Departments & they have created their own swamp. The poor uneducated villager is of no consequence to them apart from being handy to boost & stir up demonstration crowds.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 3 September 2019 1:45:30 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
We seem to be subsidising a few neighbours these days.

What is going on in Papua, I wonder?

Why were Australians who were there deported? Why are the soldiers shooting into a crowd?

https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2019/sep/02/indonesian-security-forces-open-fire-on-papuan-protesters-video
Posted by Waverley, Tuesday, 3 September 2019 4:37:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Why are the soldiers shooting into a crowd?
Waverley,
Would you just stand there & let an over-emotional, hoodwinked crowd get their hands on you ?
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 3 September 2019 7:21:44 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
individual,

Watching that video was horrific.

<<Why are the soldiers shooting into a crowd?
Waverley,
Would you just stand there & let an over-emotional, hoodwinked crowd get their hands on you?>>

Not enough information was given in the Guardian story for me to make an assessment of why there was shooting by security forces. However, the article said it was 'a peaceful demonstration that had occupied the regent’s office in the middle of Deiyai city (West Papua)'.

If this is a truthful statement, could democracy be under threat in Papua?

The Isocracy Network in 2013 stated:

'Since then [In 1969, the United Nations supervised an "Act of Free Choice] the separatist Free Papua Movement (OPM) was established with the Republic of West Papua (1971) and has engaged in small-scale conflict, with several rebellions and riots. A major study conducted by Australian and local researchers published by Sydney University in 2005 concluded that security forces where the main source of instability, with an estimated one hundred thousand deaths resulting from the occupation process. Simple acts, such as displaying the "morning star" flag, are illegal in Indonesia', http://isocracy.org/content/achieving-freedom-and-democracy-west-papua.

That article also states, 'Indonesian security forces which operate in West Papua are trained by the Australian Federal Police'.

This would suggest there is a battle continuing for democracy in West Papua. What will Australia do if it is now training West Papuan security forces and this violence continues?
Posted by OzSpen, Tuesday, 3 September 2019 8:13:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
a peaceful demonstration
OzSpen,
Of course demonstrations are always by lovely peace-loving people stirred up by Uni creeps nowhere near the demonstration.
Like when several West Papuans shot up a Police station several years ago. Nothing was said until the BRI Mob found the culprits & dealt with them. Suddenly, it was Indonesian Atrocities.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 3 September 2019 10:07:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There are kids growing up in various parts of Indonesia.

I've seen them going to school all dressed immaculately in red and white for Indonesia's National day.

What "lessons"are they learning: about Australia? About Indonesia's neighbours? ABout Papuans who are being called "pigs" "Dogs" and "monkeys"?

How will they withstand the extremist preachers who are happy to blow up the foreign infidels?

How tolerant will they be of other people....and what will occur when they find out what awful things are being done to subdue people who don't like Indonesia and don't want to be part of it?
Posted by Waverley, Wednesday, 4 September 2019 8:35:07 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sydney Morning Herald had a piece last night

I believe there will be a demonstration soon in the major capital cities

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-escalating-human-rights-crisis-on-our-doorstep-that-no-one-is-watching-20190903-p52ndj.html
Posted by Waverley, Wednesday, 4 September 2019 10:37:32 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The West Papuans are now stirring crap about what their parents voted for !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 4 September 2019 3:57:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There's a Black Lives Matter movement in the USA.

They don't seem to have connected with the troubles in Indonesia.

And Australian politicians don't seem to care

Meanwhile, more reports of widespread turmoil, on ABC News:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-04/west-papua-latest-protest-over-referendum-for-independence/11471016
Posted by Waverley, Wednesday, 4 September 2019 5:45:54 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There's a Black Lives Matter movement in the USA
Waverley,
Non-racists would say all decent lives matter !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 4 September 2019 10:09:22 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
How will they withstand the extremist preachers who are happy to blow up the foreign infidels?
Waverley,
They won't ! It's up to the few sane people who haven't been indoctrinated to sort out this mess caused by the Progressives before it's too late !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 4 September 2019 10:19:28 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Morrison has been asked to help Papuans work towards independence.

Indo Government keeps bringing more Javanese into Papua and is blocking internet access. Paratroopers were shown on SBS News on 4 September. It looks grim.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/don-t-let-west-papua-become-the-next-timor-leste-exiled-independence-leader-warns-australia
Posted by Waverley, Thursday, 5 September 2019 10:34:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Will the UN intervene to stop the killings in Papua and repression of dissent?

Will Australians speak up about what has been going on in Papua?

AT least SBS has made the position clear,with vision of Indonesian paratroopers and military aiding local militia:

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/un-human-rights-chief-disturbed-by-escalating-violence-in-papua-calls-for-calm
Posted by Waverley, Thursday, 5 September 2019 11:54:28 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Morrison has been asked to help Papuans work towards independence.
Waverley,
You mean a PNG Mark 2 ? The one that great big Goaf left us with ? $1.2 million a day ? With all the wealth on that island ? If you haven't learnt your lesson, many others have.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 5 September 2019 9:42:09 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Apparently Indonesian soldiers have been told to stop taking photos of Papuans they have killed or tortured so they can brag about it to mates back home.

ABC journalists trying to document what's happening have been tracked and hindered by Indonesian military and their assistants in Papua

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-06/west-papua-fight-for-independence-fuelled-by-race-riots/11480524
Posted by Waverley, Friday, 6 September 2019 1:23:55 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Waverley,
Is this really true ?
Posted by individual, Saturday, 7 September 2019 7:43:30 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Anyone who knows the history of East Timor knows that the Indonesian military just do as they please.

Sadly, Australia seems not to have the courage to face up to what has been done in West Papua and what continues to happen.

Not that I approve of the destruction. But it comes from years of frustration and exploitation of the resources the country has.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/why-there-s-unrest-in-the-indonesian-province-of-papua-20190905-p52o98.html
Posted by Waverley, Saturday, 7 September 2019 8:36:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I would suggest the Australian readers not to be influenced by hoax stories peddled by the likes of the Guardian. Two Indonesian soldiers have been stabbed to death by the so-called 'peaceful' demonstrators. Hundreds of shops and buildings have been looted and torched.

These violent protestors are provoked by online hoaxes about non-existent 'murders of Papuans' in Java, calling for revenge attacks against non-Papuan residents. The peddler of lies being the separatist propagandists.

No wonder Indonesian government has shut down the internet to kill-off spread of provocative hoaxes. The new cybersecurity team, highly experienced in defeating recent massive internet hoax campaign by radical Islamists, is setting its sight on the separatist hoax makers. Given its experience, in no time the entire separatist propaganda team will be in custody.

The police and army has successfully restored order, while the population has set-up self-defense groups that deterred further looting.

Thus, Indonesian government can continue its mission in developing Papuan infrastructure and economy. Under current administration, Indonesia has built 4,000 kms of roads, dozens of new airports, and new port facilities to bring the region at par with rest of Indonesia. Indonesia will not give space to violent looters and the separatist provocators who offer nothing to advance Papuans' lives.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Tuesday, 10 September 2019 7:52:37 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well on this basis, the people of East Timor were misguided and treacherous, not being loyal to the Indonesian military and their local helpers who destroyed 80 per cent of the electricity supply, housing, government buildings and roads in East Timor. Those misguided East Timorese still wanted independence from their colonial masters. Indonesians are the colonists now.

If Indonesia really cared about Papuans they would stop assisting the Americans to take the wealth out of the mines and sending it overseas. And give the Papuans self-determination. They are too scared to do so.

Now I wonder why the Indonesian government created a media blackout and expelled journalists? And brought in thousands of soldiers? Didn't they want the world to see what they were doing to Papua?
Posted by Waverley, Wednesday, 11 September 2019 3:21:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
East Timorese independence was a gracious gift from Indonesian president Habibie. That's why East Timorese govt recently named a bridge in Dili the Habibie bridge. No John Howard bridge there I'm afraid.

Purpose of internet shutdown was quite clearly explained by the govt, namely to kill-off the sinister separatist hoax campaign provoking racial violence. The shutdown is a service to humanity and cause of peace.

Now, the highly experienced cyber security agency is tracking down and arresting all the separatist hoax makers.

Indonesia will continue its program of developing Papuan infrastructure financed by the recently acquired former American Freeport mine now owned by Indonesian govt.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Thursday, 12 September 2019 12:40:53 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 8
  7. 9
  8. 10
  9. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy