The problem is not much Shorten or Morrison but the ideologues they are beholden to. I'd bet London to a brick the boats will come back as Shorten tries to appease a group within the ALP. If Morrison hangs on we will get coal, at least power station refurbishments if not new ones. It gets trickier if a large number of independents creates minority government.

I can understand Liberal voters no longer voting for the Coalition; I stopped voting Liberal when Turnbull and the Black Hand gang took them to the Left. But to vote Labor! Why not wait until you see what other options will be on the ballot paper next year?

It is true that average voters get the politicians they deserve. It is also true that the average voter has as little sense and imagination as the politicians they vote for. Voters have the power to knock the corrupt two-party system in the head. Let's do it!

I think unions served a purpose once, but in today's world irrelevant, except for those interested in power, position and a professional political career.

And need to be replaced by genuine one vote one value inside the new, small L labor party. And in crowdfunding. Unions need to morph into labour-hire companies or employee-owned and operated co-ops.

Which would forever end the need of unions to protect workers' rights, conditions or fair and equitable profit sharing etc!

Bill Shorten presents as a clever lawyer and devils advocate arguing causes that he has neither skin or genuine interest in? But, just to win the debate?

Me, I'll never ever vote for labor no matter what, because they are, I believe, the Labor dog waged by a fundamentalist green party tail! And a bona fide recipe, for a disaster going somewhere to happen!?
Alan B.

I live in Victoria and having lived under the Jeff Kennett
brigade - and now watching the internal mess of the Liberal
Party allowing the "old guard" to manipulate them - I
would have to seriously think twice before deciding who
to vote for. Neither party is very appealing at the moment.
There is still time prior to the next election - will
any of them be able to pull the rabbit out of the hat?
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
It's not looking good though.

Bill Shorty's mother-in-law is a bit of a Dame and an ex-Governor-General so young Billy must be O K.

And not to mention "Shorten was raised Catholic, but converted to Anglicanism..." [1]

Like Rudd assumed [2], there are more votes in being an Anglican.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Shorten#Personal_life

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Rudd#Religion

Labor is the assemblage of enjoyers of bread and circuses.
As long as they've got a beer and their sport to watch, they're not very interested in the plight of others in society.
Sure ...Labor has done a massive amount of good collectively over a century but now it's past its use-by date.
Educated, caring individualism is the key to successful politics today, hence the steady growth of independents.

Plantagenet,

Our new PM also thinks there's advantages
in being an Anglican. David Hurley the - new
to be - Governor General is also one.

More flexible perhaps?

My point is the hypocracy of the ambitious who convert to Anglicanism (High Church of the Establishment) for political advantage.

Ponder, too right mate.
I used to vote Liberal, in a previous life, but found they have become self serving and self absorbed.
Labour was never an option, their mantra is regressive and self serving as well, and they simply are not the stuff politicians are made of.
The trouble is NONE of them are, and I say that after years of watching the deterioration of the Australian Govt. to a point where they are not an effective govt, with the people's interests in mind, AT ALL! Any more.
No I switched to the minors, the independents.
I would be very happy if we ended up with a 'hung parliament', no more stupid laws, we have enough stupid laws.
There is something very satisfying and accomplished about throwing the cat in among the pigeons.
As the Aussy govt has become a useless self serving lot, I do not see why we should allow them to keep screwing us over while they enjoy some of the biggest kick-backs in history, feathering their own nests, whilst all along making fools of us all.
So I strongly suggest the independents, and I definitely don't mean the Greens.
They can drop dead as well, hopefully they will end up doing that anyway.
Advice to those about to vote Labor for the first time;
DON'T!

Labor is in full buy a vote mode.

Increase the dole possible $50 upwards.

An extra 4,000 refugees on top of the ones already allocated for.

Then come the relatives.

Then for housing.
Labor would offer an $8,500-a-year subsidy over 15 years to investors who build new homes for low-income and middle-income households to rent at an “affordable” rate – 20% below market rent.

Starting modestly, the program aims to produce 20,000 affordable units over three years, building to a much larger target of 250,000 dwellings over ten years.

Like usual Labor come in and we are going to be paying for there voter bribes for a long long time.

This is not to suggest the current clown is any better.

My advice to those about to vote Labor for the first time:

- JUST DON'T DO IT -

the schools and unis have dumbed down enough to vote Labour.

Armchair Critic That advise won't work simply those unemployed, those that will become unemployed to enjoy the extra money, they will vote for the money.

Refugees, advocates, money talks will vote labor.

But those labor vote buying promises really are not worth much, people will forget "no carbon tax under my government."

Interesting to see what Morrison comes out with, so far he has been silent on the vote buying side

plantagenet,
Your cynicism seems to have extended into irrationality. Anglicanism isn't that big a vote winner!

According to the link you supplied, Rudd started attending Anglican churches in the 1980s, and didn't go into politics until the late 1990s. So what reason have you to assume it's political not spiritual? Has he stopped attending them since he quit politics?

In Shorten's case, I think it could be more to do with the Roman Catholic Church's opposition to divorcees marrying.

First time voters are invariably Labor orientated for the simple reason that 99% of teachers are labor orientated & they are the last to have influence with the young. It'll take several years for them to realise the futility of idealism & if they get swallowed up in the Public Service they'll never get a chance to experience logic & common sense.

There is a good reason why they are called the 'Coalition', and the reason is because they can't get enough votes to stand on their own.

experience,
Labor is a coalition of hangers-on & inept bureaucrats led by integrity-devoid egotists.
Have you ever bothered to look where their support comes from ?
How many employers can you cite who support Labor policy ? Who are the wealth creators of Labor who employ workers ?

'There is a good reason why they are called the 'Coalition', and the reason is because they can't get enough votes to stand on their own.'

Esperence....well said!...now did you read that somewhere, or was it inspirational insight that manifested itself in the form of divine enlightenment?
Left or Right, Poor or Rich, Up or Down,....there's no difference....we all do it the same way with the only choice being the quality of toilet paper we buy.
Whether one votes Left or Right, they do so for self interest....and the minute their interests lay with the opposite...they change!
Fascinating isn't it?
So if you have two entities whose policies are similar then it's common sense they should unite whilst retaining their individuality.

That is until they come upon an intellect as sharp as yours

Individual, I have to agree, that if it were not for the 'coalition', we would have been a Labour led country from the very beginning to this day.
The Libs on their own would never have won govt, NEVER!
These days however, I can't tell the difference any more, other than the pollies have become snivelling, self serving, prostitutes.
They have for many years been selling themselves to the highest bidder, and I am frustrated and angered that I cannot find the gun, because there is plenty of smoke.
I know it does not make political sense to vote for someone simply to punish the other side.
Apart from the obvious reasons why that's a NO-NO, it finally shows that Aussies are morons.
Now if we could get enough people to vote for the minors, we would, with any luck, end up with a hung govt or a minority govt.
Both would be a win for us.
Firstly it would immediately stop the making of these spurious and counter productive laws, which only end up punishing us, the good guys, and not the people (the criminals), their aimed at, according to the govt.
So don't be too quick to dismiss Hanson or Palmer and the other mavericks.
They could end up being our salvation and solution.
I believe it's worth a thought or two.
The mistakes they would make are through ignorance and lack of experience, unlike the current collection of pricks, greed, averace, conniving, stealing, defrauding, and the list goes on.
Don't you all think we have had enough BS and lies?
Or are the Aussies so bad that they don't care they are being had.
Surely not, no one could be so mentally and emotionally deficient or deranged.

individual,

Labor is not afraid to spend big on infrastructure, which is good for employers and employees.

What have the Libs done apart from privatising government assets, and outsourcing public sector jobs to shoddy third parties so they can't be held accountable?

ALTRAV,

20 million populace will do that to you. Over in Europe, hung parliament is the norm. Over here, it's Coles and Woolies vs Coles and Woolies, and so on, and so forth.

Labor is not afraid to spend big on infrastructure,
experience,
Such as ? Besides, I'm asking which Leftists are employers i.e. those who manage a business that gives workers a wage from the profits made, not just with money pulled out of the public funding trough.

Individual,

Victoria is a good example of the success of Labor.
The Libs did nothing but cut services. You asked about
infrastructure? Labor is building roads, rail, schools,
hospitals, free TAFE, and much, much, more.

When the economy is running strong, the private sector
is growing its investment. Jobs are provided.

How's NSW and Sydney doing compared to Victoria and
Melbourne?

Foxy, I don't much care for any of the majors as you know, but I must put my oar in.
I do not see value in building infrastructure, or anything for that matter, if one does not have the money to do it.
I for one grew up with a mindset that, 'if you want something save up and pay cash'.
It appears that this current generation of the 'entitled' ones, do not care about responsible spending.
The public will never be satisfied, no matter what you do or don't do, so I believe it is much more responsible for the govt to get back in the black, before they start spending money they don't have.
As much as the morons love to bag the right, they still have not done better than good ole' Johny come lately, Howard, who from memory left the safe with about $40Billion, (I can't remember, it was so long ago).
Then along came labour and promptly had a party with, whatever the amount was.
I think that event alone is a perfect indictment of labour and it's failure as a govt.
It does not have the knowledge and experience needed to run a business, like Australia.
It is a moron who suggests that the company, (Australia) give all the profit to the workers (aka) the public, thereby leaving the business vulnerable to any negative market forces.
Australia is no different, we MUST keep surpluses so that we can do whatever we want, whenever we want, without beholding to outside controls from individuals who actually hold Australia to ransom, every time we have to borrow money from them.
A hint, the Reserve Bank is not a bank, but it is in fact a private company.
The World Bank and the IMF are the ones who lend money to countries, and guess what they are both owned by the Rothschilds.
Yeah, I know, well too bloody bad, until someone can debunk these 'facts', they stand as the latest word on this particular matter.
We should get back in the black asap then look at infrastructure spending.

ALTRAV,

I don't have the time to argue economics with you
and the importance of proceeding with providing
services to people, developing infrastructure,
providing school, health, education, transport,
and the good results that come
out of that economically. I've lived under
Jeff Kennett's reign - and Victoria dried up.
He got rid of so many things with his cuts that
it's taken this long to recover.

Anyway, I don't want to argue. I speak from
experience of living in this state. I'm glad that
I live in Victoria. I wouldn't live in Sydney.

Here's a link of what Victorian voters can expect
in the next 4 years under Labor and Dan Andrews.
This may not be your cup of tea. But the voters
in Victoria re-elected his government which
speaks volumes. If you're happy in Sydney, or
where ever you live. I'm happy for you.
I happen to love Victoria and am happy with
the Andrews government.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-26/victoria-election-what-voters-expect-dan-andrews/10550054

Enjoy your Christmas and I'll talk to you again in the New Year.
I'm now off to party.

Foxy, that's fine, have a good xmas, I'll still be around to annoy one and all when you get back on the keyboard again.
In the meantime, and in your absence I will leave this response in advance, as something to come back to on your return.
A couple of things are of concern to me about the article you linked.
The first has to do with the introductory paragraphs.
As if to fall straight into my trap he begins with the unashamed brag about borrowing 'big'.
Then I note a glaring factual mistake, at least at face value.
And that is where he brags about 'building 1000 new public housing' for $200,000,000.
Now I may not be the best at math, but I'm pretty sure you can't buy a house and land package for $200,000, at least not within a 'reasonable' or useful distance from the CBD.
Anyway I do not subscribe to this buying votes mantra that seems to be all the go these days, and what is even more incredible, is the people are so blinded by these promises and so stupid to not see the serious flaw in this type of irresponsible economic management.
Sure let's borrow the money, who cares, we're not going to be around to give a sh!t, because it will be someone else's problem.
What they mean is it will be the Libs problem, and of course not to be outdone, the libs will go 'well stuff them, labour created the problem, we'll borrow money as well, just to be bitchy and so as to get their slice of blood money, not wanting the other side to go one better.
Irrationality aside, I find this type of mind set to be economic suicide.
Now unless there is an international 'correction' and the lenders are prepared to right off what will amount to trillions of dollars world wide, the Rothschilds will not allow this to happen as they want their blood money.
The net result of this kind of irresponsible spending is WAR.
Records show that Rothschilds have been responsible for most conflicts.

ALTRAV,

I don't think you read the link I gave properly.

It was $200 million "that will also be used for
new public housing properties." Not $200,000.
And public housing in Victoria is made up of units
in high-rise buildings - not house and land packages.

As for good economic management. The Andrews government
is doing great so far. The economy is strong. Employment
is high. Investment is also strong.

I wouldn't knock it. As I said - I speak from experience
living in this state.BTW - it's the Libs who cut everything,
and then Labor has to come in and fix things. Not the other
way round as you're suggesting.

You really have a fixation with the Rothschilds.

You need to get over that and not bring them up in
every discussion. It's not rational.

Foxy Quote "public housing in Victoria is made up of units
in high-rise buildings - not house and land packages."

Just out of interest have you ever visited or spoken to any of the residents of the Flemington, Nth Melbourne, Carlton commission flats?

They are a disaster area that is happening now, drugs, crime, vandalism etc.

500 or more people in the same area that used to house 6 or so families, what could go wrong?

Trust me the people living there if they had a viable alternative they would be out quicker than you could count to ten.

If you think it is such a good idea, when will you be moving into one?

Build more stupid idea.

Philip S.,

I have seen the new public housing that's
being built. The old ones are being replaced
and the new ones certainly look so much
better. The courtyards and gardens are also
extra additions that add to a better appearance.
Kids are now playing in those areas and they
look so much more liveable. It's a good sign
all round.

Some of the Eastern Suburbs are having high
rise public housing units built in their areas.
They look liveable and there's no difference
in their appearance from the other high rise
units. A good look is being introduced.

Perhaps you need to get out more and see what's
really going on. The old style of public housing
is definitely being replaced at least here in
Melbourne. Eventually all the old buildings
will go. Which is a good thing.

Foxy, sorry but I do not subscribe to the high density, high chaos, crowded living environment.
It is not and will never be, despite your putting a 'pleasant' spin on it, the preferred and best life style, no matter how many courtyards and gardens you want to push.
It is still people being squeezed into little boxes.
It's not a good look.
It's a bad look, no matter how you package or market it.
Foxy, I did read it correctly, now you are guilty of what you accuse me of.
Take the amount of $2,000,000, divide it by 1000, the number of dwellings being suggested for that sum of money, you get $200,000 which is the amount per dwelling.
Now where I live, even a $200,000 'apartment' will see you living in the 'sticks'.
Furthermore any high rise flats or apartments are located within the CBD, and their prices start at $500,000.
Lastly, again you answer the wrong question or mis-read the post.
My reference to bad financial management was about J Howard and the federal coffers.
When labour came in after Howard, they raped and pillaged to the point where they took Australia from a surplus country to a deep in debt one.
It is all to do with the lefts Marxist ideologies and that wealth must be distributed amongst the poor.
The problem is, it's a moronic and foolish mantra, because it relies completely on borrowed money.
That is the sad thing about the left and labour, it cannot stand the thought of saving money, it has to spend it quicker than they can earn it.
Just look at the debt level, per capita in this country, and if you don't think it is shameful, disgusting even, then you've made my case.
Any fool can 'look good' with someones else's money, especially when you have no intention or means of repaying the debt, I think it's generally classified as fraud or theft, but it appears that those words do not apply to labour in this case.
As long as he lines his pockets whilst in office, it's alright.

Foxy, sorry, correction. $200,000,000 not $2,000,000. I'm dyslexic?

individual,

Such as Fiber NBN, and not 'outdated' copper NBN.

I don't believe Labor, or any government, can get elected without employer support

ALTRAV,

Something that is unable to be repeated is simply a fluke. Can't get anymore obvious than that, re John Howard, the Liberals and their reliance on the floating dollar

Sorry esperence, you'll have to do a lot better than that.
Your response was well short of any explanation, therefore it is merely an unfinished comment.
A little more info would be appreciated.

I would not be so sure that people's doubts about Shorten as opposed to Morrison needs to be overcome. I think the doubt about Shorten as a potential Prime minister is something that need to be considered. I live in Maribyrnong and have experienced first hand how poisonous to democracy and the best of our traditions PC fanaticsism has become in the ALP.

https://freedom-demokrasi-and-civilised-humanity.com/2018/12/07/open-letter-to-prime-minister-scott-morrison-what-would-a-maribyrnong-pm-bill-shorten-do-to-our-democracy/

Australia ,please take heed.

Ozguy, I agree, I have my own take on govt's, elections and politics.
Basically, and we all know that, it's a waste of time, because apart from all the BS and snake oil selling and free giveaways as enticements and inducements to 'reel in' the aussy public, aka, the plebs, neanderthals, you get the drift, they're liars as well.
After many years of voting libs, I found it increasingly difficult to distinguish the two, they slowly managed to make themselves into one of the largest evil, greedy, self righteous, self serving group of thieves in the world.
Upon the realisation of this revelation, I concluded that the quickest way to regain some semblance of control over our govt, was to 'throw the cat amongst the pigeons'.
By this I mean, I began voting for the independents.
This way, with any luck we get some form of hung parliament, thereby stopping any further stupid unrealistic laws, as we are witnessing more and more lately.
And in doing so will remove the power to enable all these govt backed projects and programs that the poly's use to siphon their 'kick-backs' from.
I can only hope that more and more people come to the realisation that we are getting ripped off and stop voting for the big boys, and their preference flee mates.
Remember the Independents.