If its a well paid job then why is UNPAID leave such a problem? You want your husband to earn the big bucks and to get EXTRA benefits. How fair is that to co-workers that might never want kids. It does not sound like give and take to me. How about offering to sacrifice 5% of the annual salary in exchange for additional annual leave which can be used for family time. Or is the flash car and the dinners out more important than family time?

Regards,
Zero Sympathy.

P.S. I have two small kids, a morgage and I employ people

It's a very good point you make Rebecca; with the appalling handling of the IR legislation by the Coalition Government; what other glitches might there be? The Coalition has not allowed for adequate debate and is just in the process of ramroading the legislation through.

I'm wondering Rebecca, when you do have a son or daughter will your husband be able to take them to school sports on the basis he may have to work on Saturdays?

Sand between my toes, I am of your faith, and consider your posts to be full of experience, wisdom, and knowledge. I do not have the ability to explain in the detail that you do, my beliefs, however mine mirror yours, in every way, it is refreshing to read your posts so good to know that the way we think is being so well represented. I thought it important to let you know you have a tremendous amount of community support, please keep up the good work, and I will chime in with support, in this climate of oppression, we must stick together. Hope you will be attending the Rights at Work campaign on Tuesday, as many Australian workers, and supporters will, cheers mate.

Whilst I generally support and appreciate the sentiments put forward by Sand Beneath My Toes, I would just like to emphasise one point in reference to Harvester that appears to be overlooked. The Harvester Decision set the basic MALE wage. It was to "support the wage earner in reasonable and frugal comfort". This related to a male wage earner supporting a wife and two dependent children. Harvester essentially put in place wage discrepancy for men and women doing the same work that was to continue for decades to come (let's face it, we still have pay equity decisions today, I point to the fairly recent Librarian and Child Care worker decisions).

Yuyutsu wrote:

<<but it is also the government's responsibility to ensure a minimal, though frugal, standard of living unconditionally for everyone, regardless whether ...they "wish" to work>>

Yuyutsu most of what you write demonstrates a very well informed and reasonable mind. But I must take issue with one phrase in your post which I quoted: "regardles of whether they wish to work".

It should be clear that if people are guaranteed an income even if they don't 'wish' to work, it will breed laziness and social parasites. "Why should I work ? I get $xxx from centrelink anyway and after all, I can do lots of cash jobs to top it up"

The International Harvester case is historically interesting, but is not relevant to todays world. No matter what we "think" governments or employers should do, the money has to come from somewhere.

Now, those of us who employ people would know how easily a profit can (and does) turn into a "loss" simply by slow and/or inefficient work attitudes.

NO CUSTOMERS, NO BUSINESS.
They would also know, that no business survives the loss of customers, and that it is very competitive 'out there'. Not being able to make 'your' product for at least a comparable price to your competitor, does not leave the consumer much choice but to choose theirs if the quality is reasonable and they can save some bucks.

BALANCE NEEDED.
In the end, just and fair wage solutions have to be a balance of competing interests. Ideally all (Employers and employees) should have the same goal, the prosperity of the company which gives them all a living. Greed at either end of the scale will destroy this.

Perceptions will vary also about 'just' returns for time/money invested. When we hear the "boss" has a holiday flat on the Gold Coast, when they hint of 'things slowing down' but the Boss's son rolls up next day in a brand new 4WD... does not help the balance process or the perceptions. Neither does numerous 'sicky' long weekends by employees.

Renewed hearts and minds is the answer.

Boaz,

Don't we all wish for renewed hearts and minds?
it is harder though, for those stressed and anxious, who are worried whether they will find food and shelter tomorrow, to find peace wherein their hearts and minds can be renewed.

I wonder whether you believe in the inherent goodness of every being?

Is the world, with so many greater troubles, scared of those few genuinely-lazy people who are willing to live simply and frugally so they do not have to work? lazy people already have and will continue to have their dishonest ways to avoid working: should making it honest hurt anyone?

Those people who do not wish to work include (the list is certainly not exhaustive):

* most lazy people, whose laziness is just a cover for a physical weakness without formal medical diagnosis, or who do not wish to admit such weaknesses.
* those wanting to work - but not under the conditions currently offered in the job-market.
* those wishing to work without pressure.
* those wishing to study informally in order to become professional and start their own business.
* those preferring to take care of their grandchildren/nephews/nieces.
* those wishing to devote their time to charitable and/or religious causes and/or just to help others without concern for financial reward.
* those wishing to spend their life in prayer and meditation.
* those who prefer to spend their time here in the forum, contributing good ideas for a better society.

The possibility of "cash jobs to top it up" does not arise (unless you refer to tax-evasion, which is a crime and should be dealt with accordingly), because EVERYBODY will receive this handout/compensation from the government. This handout will only allow you to live frugally, so if you want more you will have more incentive to work part-time/casual and earn more from the first dollar: no problem with it so long as you pay your taxes.

The very fact that people do not HAVE to work, is the best guarantee that those choosing to work will be respected by their employer and receive reasonable conditions!