Dear NNS,

I was brought up to believe in God. No searching was necessary. After considering the matter I decided the God of the Bible was something I could not accept. I was brought to believe in the God of the Jewish Bible. At least he could operate without a sidekick.

The New Testament gave God a sidekick in Jesus. That is silliness. An all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good entity needs a sidekick? That just adds to the superstition.

I came to this thread because I think divorce is a civil matter as is marriage, and I object to religious interference in people’s lives in matters under civil law. A religious group can consider two people married or divorced by their religion. However, we live under civil law. In the case of divorce, property settlements and child custody are the businesses of civil law not any religion.

I get excited because you continue to equate believing in God with a belief in your particular Christian sect. Some Christian sects accept homosexuality and perform same sex church weddings. They still believe in God. Homosexuality in practice is ok with them. Some Christians accept changes with the times. Few Christians now accept slavery although the Bible accepts slavery. Deists, Jews, Muslims, Baha’i and Sikhs believe in God. Muslims, Baha’i and Sikhs have their own scriptures. Jews do not include the New Testament in their Bible. Deists have no scriptures. Many people believe in God. Many of those people are not Christians. Many Christians differ with you on what is moral and what is not moral. In fact, many Christians differ with you on the nature of God.

Your particular version of Christianity seems to me very narrow, prejudiced and limited. I think it is very harmful and has caused much human suffering. You feel you have the right to interfere in human lives. You would deny a woman an abortion. You would deny homosexuals a legal connection. I get angry at those that would push the clock back to a more rigid, less free society.

Hogwash and horse manure, David F. If you want to believe your lies then so be it, but by what you wrote you did not come here to talk about marriage or divorce or even civil law, but to use the subject loosely to address your real concern. Your anger towards Christianity. Your first two comment reveal your reasons for commenting. First sentence in this topic: "Christianity itself is full of contradictions." and from your second post? "Nobody can break up families like Jesus."

I'll say it again. Deal with your own anger. It's not my job or anyone else's to calm you down or be the focus of your anger. When I came into the conversation, what was the topic you approached there? Was it marriage and divorce? No, it was abortion. Divorce has many other reasons then people marrying after they discover there is a pregnancy. And so I still maintain the focus of that conversation is worth while. Divorce is a worth while conversation. Not to be sidelined within it's own topic. Why? Because it would help to have some guidance on the topic when people are considering breaking their vows of marriage.

Is it worth struggling through to save the marriage? (Some couples go through a hard time before things get resolved and they continue a happy and meaningful marriage). Or is it time to throw in the towel and move on? The reasons to move on vary from something like career opportunities leading them in different directions (so they deicide that's more important then staying together); to "falling out of love" with each other and either because they have been trying to make it work and it hasn't, or because they've found someone else and no longer love their spouse but do love the their replacement. That excuse is used in several situations. Throwing in the towel can come from abuse, continual disrespect, or just ongoing problems that aren't going away. There is not a shortage for philosophies to divorce, nor are there a shortage of philosophies for sticking through it, and being married.

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The topic is big enough to talk about on it's own. For Christians facing hardships and divorce, or are already divorced, or for Christians and nonchristians on a Christian understanding to guide people through this rough spot of failed or failing marriages.

If you want to talk about a narrow view consider your own. Even bringing up the idea that people don't need higher education to get their lives in order is enough to have you kicking and screaming about it. Get over yourself with your "narrow view," criticism and apply it to yourself. I have my views, my opinions. Have lived long enough to aquire them instead of welcome everything indiscriminately, but at least I'm willing to talk to people with differing views and hear them out before hollowing down their throats as you repeated do. Yet you accuse me of doing this instead.

As for searching for God. Some clarification. Did you search for God "more then I know," or were you raised in a Christian home and never needed to search for God. The difference is worth noting. Some people grow up in a Christian background but don't engage it more then that. Not an accusation, just looking for clarification for future conversations. Especially when you say you've looked into other religions. Did you give any of them a chance? Did you give Christianity a chance? By giving it a chance I mean to look at it from the inside of that religion and explore it's teachings and applying it to a person's life. It doesn't have to be applying it to yourself, but looking at a believer (or a community of believers) that tries to apply the teachings and see how they are doing.

Or we can actually talk about divorce (don't pretend you want to talk about the legalities of it or that was ever a concern brought up before). It is a reality of life. People get divorced. Both Christian and non Christian. It is a mess for the couple and for the kids if they have any. It's worth it's own discussion.

Dear NNS,

Again you reveal your bigotry. One only finds God in Christianity. That is absolute nonsense. Your superstition is just one of many superstitions that postulate God or gods. Humans have been inventing gods for a long time. Your particular version has a sidekick and comes in three parts. You know little or nothing of other versions. We now have separation of religion and state in civilized democratic countries. We now have a woman's right to abortion and the right of two people regardless of sex to form a legal commitment in some civilized democratic countries. Some with your superstition would like to get rid of that.

The adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire brought on the Dark Ages. If enough people see things your way they'll come again. The fight for civilisation will continue against superstition. Who knows? Maybe your superstition will win out, and the Dark Ages will come again. Maybe the Muslim or other superstition will win out, and the Dark Ages will come again under another management. As you have demonstrated some pockets of the Dark Ages still exist.

//I'll say it again. Deal with your own anger. It's not my job or anyone else's to calm you down or be the focus of your anger.//

//Even bringing up the idea that people don't need higher education to get their lives in order is enough to have you kicking and screaming about it.//

Kicking and screaming, eh?

//I could not have held the jobs I have had without a university education. Getting an education is not just for jobs. It makes one's life richer. One is aware of more of the world and its riches. I am 92. I am not working, but my life would be much poorer if I had not had an education. I am giving lectures in philosophy. I would probably not be giving them had I not had an education. Giving those keeps me learning. Learning is not just for jobs. It can make your life fuller.//

//In addition to my education in science I have an education in the humanities which I greatly appreciate. It has brought great joy to my life. My children and I would not have the lives we’ve had without university educations.//

Nope, can't see any kicking or screaming there, just a man who places great value on the education he received and hopes that others lives might be enriched in the same way.

I'm not sure this new tactic of trying to discredit your opponents arguments as angry outbursts when they don't sound angry is as much of a winner as you think it is. Kinda makes you look a bit silly.

//Get over yourself//

Well that's a bit rich coming from a chap more full of himself than the biggest matryoshka doll in the set. Matthew 7:3-5, NNS.

//but at least I'm willing to talk to people with differing views and hear them out//

Hah!

Thank you, Toni Lavis. I should have realised that NNS sees reason as kicking and screaming. He is not alone. The spirit of the stake and the torture chamber lives on. I was in Lubeck, Germany during a Christmas season. In Lubeck are the twin towers with a passage near the top connecting them. One sees that decorating marzipan boxes. At the bottom of one of the towers is a torture museum. Thumb screws, the iron maiden, the rack and other instruments of the Inquisition were on display. As I was watching I heard the strains of "Silent Night, Holy Night". The dialog with NNS brought the juxtaposition of the expressions of Christian faith to mind.