Mac, atheism is a religious belief, no matter how you twist and turn, and is recognised by the UN as such. And Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither was a properly Christian Europe. It was a lot longer than a 1000 years too before free enterprise was recognised as a desirable form of organisation. It would truly have been a miracle if Christianity had immediately transformed society on the death of Christ. But Christianity is unique in ascribing equal worth to each person. The working out of that doctrine leads to free enterprise, and democracy, as we know it.

Dear GrahamY,

I'm not sure pointing out that a quotation was incorrectly attributed was worthy of your lengthy response but each to their own. However I will acknowledge my post was given impetus by mhaze mischaracterising his exchange with AJ Phillips, something perhaps more worthy of attention.

Be that as it may your link hardly made the case that mhaze's misattributed quote was somehow the complete essence of Chesterton's sentiment. I think that is a stretch.

It uses two of his quotes. The first; “It’s the first effect of not believing in God that you lose your common sense.”

Although they place a full stop after 'sense' the full sentence reads; “It’s the first effect of not believing in God that you lose your common sense and can’t see things as they are.”

Father Brown's reason for this? “... all because you are frightened of four words:“He was made Man”.”

Which is essentially asserting that the little superstitions are dross because there is an overarching, bigger superstition which supersedes all others.

Cont..

Cont..

The second, “You hard-shelled materialists were all balanced on the very edge of belief — of belief in almost anything.” is speaking directly to the case at hand. While it might be asserted that Chesterton believes this universally he certainly doesn't fully state it elsewhere. Also remember these were the words of a character. Other of Father Brown's utterances include;

“If ever I murdered somebody," he added quite simply, "I dare say it might be an Optimist.”

“But, as a matter of fact, another part of my trade, too, made me sure you weren’t a priest.” “What?” asked the thief, almost gaping. “You attacked reason,” said Father Brown. “It’s bad theology.”

“When will people understand that it is useless for a man to read his Bible unless he also reads everybody else's Bible?”

Chesterson was fun reading in my early 20s and it has been good revisiting but he always has been pretty self-contradictory.

Verdam from The Miracle of Moon Crescent makes the point nicely;

“Father Brown believes the holy donkey had six legs and the house of Loretto flew through the air. He believes in hundreds of stone virgins winking and weeping all day long. It’s nothing to him to believe that a man might escape through the keyhole or vanish out of a locked room. I reckon he doesn’t take much stock of the laws of nature.”

Steele, that is all pretty tiresome and irrelevant. The quote stands on its own, whether Chesterton actually thought it, or even believed it. You're just trying a diversion because you can't win the argument. It's got almost nothing to do with the contention in the article. And fancy criticising me for a lengthy reply and then more than doubling the length of mine in yours!

Graham,

I’m disappointed. I gave you enough credit to assume that you had worded that badly, and even thought mac may have been a little quick to the punch there.

“Christianity is more compatible than any other religious belief, including atheism, with an economically liberal society.” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19729#349378)

Myself and others have explained why atheism is not a religion, a belief system, or even a belief (unless you’re talking about strong atheism, per the diagram I linked to earlier).

Then along you come, and, in an apparent attempt to do nothing more a little heel-digging, claim that atheism is a religion without providing any reasoning whatsoever for your claim. Not even mhaze is silly enough to make such an absurd claim. That’s something runner would say.

Personally, I think you Christians are just stroppy, and perhaps a little envious, because having no religion gives atheists more room to move as individuals, without the shackles of a dogmatic belief system.

But, please, tell us all why atheism is a religion. Show us all how baldness can indeed be a hair colour.

Understand, however, that if you re-define ‘atheism’, I don’t gain a religion, I lose a label.

--

Dear SteeleRedux,

I appreciate your noting of mhaze’s misrepresentation of our past discussions. It seems to happen every time we clash swords and it’s something that really starts to grind me down. To see that it at least doesn’t go unnoticed is a relief.

Dear GrahamY,

Yes, your admonishment to me was more than double the words of my admonishment of mhaze and my subsequent reply was twice as long again, almost as if a point was being made.

Next to contend that “The quote stands on its own, whether Chesterton actually thought it, or even believed it.” is rather fraught. It was already a rather trite quote but without Chesterton's ownership I feel it becomes even more superficial. But that is just my opinion.

As to the the article I thought I had already addressed it, I felt it was an amateurish piece with few if any redeeming qualities however I did go on to reference Stephen Fry's clip, although granted that the point may have been a little oblique.

What he states is that empirically the most successful liberal democracies appear to be those where religiosity is greatly diminished for instance the Scandinavian countries or England yet he notes the place of the Church within the ruling structures. It is interesting of course that the USA where there is a strict separation between Church and State there are high levels of religiosity and it is a big call to ever claim it is an exemplar of liberal democratic values.

Admittedly this point had less to do with the toxic Libertarianism of the type the author was trying to justify and promote and could be seen by some as a diversion. Yet it certainly focused on the impact of religion, particularly Christian by default, on our democracies.

Finally mate can we get real for a moment. We are Aussies here. What do you really think about a bloke who calls a matrix he cobbles together after himself? Surely he is either taking the piss or is being a typical big noting Yank. If it is the former then he got me good but my bet is it's the latter.