The book of Danial seems to me to be the answer to the question of how to be a Christian in a secular world. Danial was among the Israelites that were exiled in Babylon. In that time Danial seemed to be the model for Jesus's teaching later to submit to those who rule over you. He served a king that did not serve God, and in all that Danial did it seemed to be that he was loyal to this kingdom that conquored his people. Everything except where following an ordnance would be taking actions against God.

To me this is the example we should follow. We live in a world that continually acts against what we know is from God. And though one option seems to be the obvious answer to charge against the evil rulers of our nations that is not what Jesus taught. To be Christians in a secular or otherwise world, we should be like Danial was and be faithful to God in all we do, then after that, be under the rule of the nation's we abide in. (Unless we are perscuted. In that case go ahead and run, flee to a new home).

As for the church as a whole. I don't think we are at the end of Christianity or christiandom any more then Israel was at it's end when it became conquored, and later lost it's homeland and became scattered throughout the world. If the church body could be destroyed it would have been in it's beginning, when it was under fierce persecution. Or it would have during the times of controversery and hearsay that became the foundation for a need that brought the first consol of Nicea. Or even later the church would have rotted from corruption, or fallen apart after Protestant splits in it. Yet Christianity is still strong. Held together by faithful people who study the bible, as well as those who by love act to serve the world that desperately needs help.

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In my opinion Jesus's promise that nothing could tare down His kingdom seems true with what Christianity has been through and still continued on. It's a simular promise that God gave to Israel. And they are still here today as well.

:). Good article Peter. Lots of thoughts to consider, and to consider being a faithful Christian in spite of both the state, as well as in spite of sometimes the leaders of the churches.

We are part of a kingdom not of this world.

Amen, Peter, though the road ahead is still long.

I am so happy to read such a topic where we all seem to agree, whether Christian or otherwise.

Regarding the small controversy pointed out by George, about the statement: "It means that individualist Christianity is abandoned for a place in a community.", perhaps what the author meant to say in this context was that, as long as the church was tied up with the state, true Christians who sought the kingdom of God had to go underground and practice religion individually, but once the church and state are separated, they can come out of the closet to participate in a meaningful community of worship.

Seeing this thread has been going for awhile I'll join it now... I like to see the crazy theories of people first.

True Christianity died when Jesus died...Sorry that people didn't notice that...

Not long after he died the disciples started mucking it up eventually allowing the Pharisee Paul to infiltrate and teach his rubbish. He was the huge divisive wedge pushed into Christianity.

The disciples were expecting Jesus' return for the first few years but quickly realised it is all up to them.

How Jesus ever made Peter the rock is almost unbelievable!

Like the modern day believer Paul hardly mentioned Jesus and got most things wrong anyway.

Paul taught the Oppression of women, robbed churches, taught that women should cover their heads or be shorn, lied often, and taught totally against Jesus teachings of the Prodigal Son.

So by the time that the Catholics started Christianity had been taken over by a Pharisee and the destruction was well under way.

The Church of England of course had such an honourable start (lol) in that it broke away from the Catholics because King Henry wanted to divorce a wife or two or three. Eventuaslly that also led to the killing of two of his wives although what happened with Catherine of Aragon dying in custody who would know.

Jesus left one religion and no buildings from his time on Earth.

The divisive believers have broken his religion into 34,000 to 44,000 sects or groups depending who you listen to and built some 37 million buildings depending on who you listen to.

The Christian religion has only itself to blame for it's own destruction.

Most Christians don't follow Jesus teachings whilst crowing that they do and the Bible is continually misrepresented by then\m through poor education.

In Luke 12:49-56 Jesus predicted what would happened and the followers accidentally made it happen.

The Queen who probably shouldn't actually even be Queen is the Supreme Governor of the CofE as laughable as that is especially after it's ugly beginnings.

Jesus must be so proud...lol

It is that simple!

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Dear Peter,

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« The rise and fall of English [and Australian] Christendom » ?

For whom the (church) bell tolls ?

Don’t worry, Peter, Christianity will find its rightful place, in good time, in the pantheon of the great mythologies : Greek, Roman, Etruscan, Celtic, Germanic and Norse … They have all left their mark on Western culture and will never be forgotten.

They continue to inspire us.

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Dear Banjo Paterson,

Manichaeism extended from Spain to China and lasted from the third to eighteenth centuries. Except for historians who specialise in the study of that extinct religion its myths are now forgotten.

From E. C. Carpenter's Pagan & Christian Creeds:
Their Origin and Meaning

"But almost more remarkable than the world-encircling belief in human-divine Saviours is the equally widespread

p. 156

legend of their birth from Virgin-mothers. There is hardly a god--as we have already had occasion to see--whose worship as a benefactor of mankind attained popularity in any of the four continents, Europe, Asia, Africa and America--who was not reported to have been born from a Virgin, or at least from a mother who owed the Child not to any earthly father, but to an impregnation from Heaven. And this seems at first sight all the more astonishing because the belief in the possibility of such a thing is so entirely out of the line of our modern thought. So that while it would seem not unnatural that such a legend should have, sprung up spontaneously in some odd benighted corner of the world, we find it very difficult to understand how in that case it should have spread so rapidly in every direction, or--if it did not spread--how we are to account for its spontaneous appearance in all these widely sundered regions.

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