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Dear Yuyutsu,

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You wrote :

« The issue of time (past-present-future) is complex and would require a full discussion by itself, but I fail to see the connection with this topic. Do you consider it relevant here? »

Well, perhaps you will recall, Yuyutsu, you raised the topic yourelf, by declaring :

« Hopes, wishes and expectations belong in the future »

Apparently, you thought it was relevant - otherwise, you would not have evoked "the future". That’s why I commented on "the issue of time".
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You then objected :

« Please don't complicate things further than they need to be by introducing consciousness because knowledge can also be acquired and used without consciousness »

Again, I was simply replying to your statement :

« Those actions of primeval man which you describe indeed cannot be classified as modern science, but they had … in common [the fact that] they assumed some knowledge of the univers »

The point I was making was that primeval man had invented gods and religion as a survival strategy in order to cope with their hostile natural environment (thunder, lightning, earthquakes, volcanoes, droughts, floods, etc.). You considered it was not modern science, but science nevertheless, not strategy, stating that as it may be assumed they had “some knowledge of the universe” it could be qualified as science. I pointed out that primeval man’s limited knowledge of the universe could hardly be described as science, but simply consciousness, i.e., awareness.

Now, you declare that “knowledge can also be acquired and used without consciousness”. As I understand it that is a highly controversial question which, to the best of my knowledge, has not yet been scientifically demonstrated. Even if it were the case, I very much doubt that whatever knowledge of the universe primeval man “acquired and used without consciousness” was sufficient to qualify as science.

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(Continued …)

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(Continued …)

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You noted :

« Deities are not religion … »

That’s correct. Deities (or a deity, e.g., God) are (or is) generally the object of religious belief.
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You posit :

« Religion in the broader sense was never invented - it preceded the universe: what is constantly being invented and revised, however, are religious techniques, to suit the time and conditions »

That comes as a surprise, Yuyutsu. When I asked you for your definition of what you referred to as “religion itself”, you replied :

« In the broadest sense, Religion is the process of coming closer to God, by whatever means, whatever works. In a stricter sense, religion only includes conscious efforts and practices that aim for and achieve that purpose »

This is in complete contradiction with what you now affirm : that religion “preceded the universe”. How can religion “precede the universe” if there are no human beings around to “come closer to God” ? If there are no human beings, there can be no religion.

On the other hand, in my opinion, it is not necessary for there be a “God” for there to be religion. All that is necessary are human beings who believe that there is a “God”.

It is a belief in "God" that is necessary for there to be religion. Whether there actually is a "God" or not is irrelevant.

As it is written in the Christian bible : "by you faith you will be saved", (which seems to imply : whether there is a god or not !)
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Many thanks, Yuyutsu, for explaining how you focus your attention on God. It must not be easy. I understand the difficulties.

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Dear Banjo,

Regarding time (past-present-future), I was drawn into it because you mentioned it earlier. So let's leave that issue.

«The point I was making was that primeval man had invented gods and religion as a survival strategy in order to cope with their hostile natural environment»

You seem to know something that I don't and which the archaeological community would be eager to find. I do not discard this possibility, but I wonder how you can tell that it were survival-seekers who invented gods first and only subsequently, religious people borrowed this concept from them for their spiritual endeavours? How can you tell that it wasn't the other way around?

«I pointed out that primeval man’s limited knowledge of the universe could hardly be described as science, but simply consciousness, i.e., awareness.»

So let's keep it simple: they either knew something or thought they did, then they proceeded to use it for survival and material betterment. This attitude is something they had in common with modern science, though other aspects might not have been in common.

«If there are no human beings, there can be no religion.»

In the most general sense, religion exists because everything inherently yearns to return to God. But yes, if for practical reasons we count only conscious efforts, then you need humans (or equivalent species in other planets/galaxies) to develop religion.

«All that is necessary are human beings who believe that there is a “God”»

Actually, a belief in "God" is not a requisite for religion, though it can help. OTOH, there are people who profess a belief in God, but who are not at all religious (for example, Muslim terrorists and Catholic-priest child-molestors).

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Dear Yuyutsu,

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I had prepared a detailed response to your latest post but decided not to send it when I reached the passage where you wrote :

« … religion exists because everything inherently yearns to return to God … )

That’s an outlandish statement to say the least, Yuyutsu. Everything means “all things” (OED definition). People are not things. Do you honestly think that tables and chairs, knives and forks, etc. practise religion, but that people do not ?

If that is the case I’m afraid I prefer to withdraw from this discussion.

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Dear Banjo Paterson, You have my email address. I no longer have yours. I inadvertently destroyed both my list of contacts and my unanswered emails. Please resend your emails that I have not answered.

Dear Banjo,

«Do you honestly think that tables and chairs, knives and forks, etc. practise religion, but that people do not?»

Obviously people do. In fact, people (and perhaps similar species on other planets/galaxies/worlds) are special in that they are the only ones who practise religion consciously.