Thanks for the rephrasing there, diver dan. It’s much appreciated.

Normally, I would associate slipperiness with a deliberate attempt to deceive. If I sounded a little cranky, it was only because I spent more time on my first response to you there than I normally would with most other comments I post on OLO, in an attempt to give the most considered response I possibly could, with what little I felt I had to work with.

Now to your next question…

<<Since no living person once dead, (eg blown to pieces on the battle field type dead), has returned to tell the tale, would you consider that it may be possible for an eternal existence after physical death, for the part of us that is the consciousness ?>>

Well, I can’t say that it's NOT possible. After all, how could I know that?

But is it possible?

I guess, to the extent that it’s possible Russell’s Teapot may be out there orbiting the sun, or to the extent that the big bang could have been triggered by universe-creating pixies.

Who knows?

The time to believe something, however, is when there is evidence.

What we can know to some degree of certainty, though, is that (contrary to the claims of mystics - both theistic and atheistic alike) our consciousness is not a separate entity independent of our physical bodies. Suggesting this is the fact that when a person suffers from a brain injury severe enough, everything that makes that person who they are can be reset: their personality, their memory, their ability to form new memories, their preferences, and their desires.

The fact that our consciousness can be altered so drastically by the state of our brain, suggests that it is unlikely that our consciousness lives on after our physical bodies die.

AJPhillips

Archaic is our fascination with consciousness. There are people in our lives we wish not to be parted from, so we all understand the fascination for holding onto a hope of being reunited in another world outside the physical one.
Of course there are other motivations for holding such a hope for eternal life; purely selfish ones.

I note the points you make with interest. Others are; at what stage does consciousness enter the body? Where does it originate? Why is science so baffled by its existence and unable to pin-point its dwelling place in the brain, (or the body for that matter)? Is consciousness actually an aura around the body itself and not brain related? Does nature (the universe), have ownership of our consciousness? Why does the physical body guard so jealously its company, only to be parted at death? Does consciousness actually carry the emotions of love and hate for example, leaving our brains to calculate outcomes from those emotions, as would a computer compute in a physical sense? Do we actually carry the seed of consciousness from our parents? And comically, am I my own grandpa, through sharing part of his consciousness handed down through birth?

There is an endless array of questions relating to consciousness, but all culminate in who are we, and why do we exist. These questions are faith related, or otherwise enlist a faith in science alone, to provide explanations to the eternal question of life and death. One thing for sure, there is no one answer.

Comment.

diver dan,

I wouldn't describe our fascination with consciousness as “archaic”. It’s still very relevant today.

As for your ponderings regarding consciousness, I think my point regarding the effects of brain injury put many of them into perspective…

<<… at what stage does consciousness enter the body?>>

That’s assuming it “enters” the body at all. Going back to my points regarding brain injury, it is reasonable to conclude that consciousness simply emerges as the brain develops in the womb.

<<Why is science so baffled by its existence and unable to pinpoint its dwelling place in the brain, (or the body for that matter)?>>

I don’t know that science is trying to pinpoint a dwelling for consciousness. I think it’s generally accepted that the consciousness “dwells” in the brain. Again, the effects of brain injury suggest this. It sounds to me like you are conflating consciousness and the concept of a soul here. More importantly, our inability to scientifically explain something is not evidence of a supernatural explanation. Such an assertion would be a fallacious appeal to ignorance.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/56/Argument-from-Ignorance

Every time humans explained a phenomenon with the supernatural, it turned out that there was a perfectly rational explanation. There is nothing special about this point in time that should compel us to assume that the unknowns from here on in must necessarily have mystical explanations for them, or that they will never be explained. Such thinking is giving up, and I see this from mystics all the time.

<<Does consciousness actually carry the emotions of love and hate for example …>>

I suppose that depends on what you mean by “carry”. Emotions are chemical responses. Our consciousnesses appear to both trigger these chemical responses, and respond to the feelings that result from them. Which then raises the question: if our consciousnesses are independent entities, then why would they bother tinkering with our physical bodies in such a way?

If you’re interested in this sort of stuff, then I would recommend some of Dan Dennett’s books and lectures. He has some interesting thoughts on consciousness.

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_our_consciousness

AJPhillips

You and I must agree on at least one thing, that the perception of our individual conscious worlds may never entirely line up with each other.
Mine is an empirical view of life in general, its all that time ever permitted: But I'm not disappointed.

When I say consciousness, I mean by that a consciousness of self, as opposed to conscious perceptions. A hypnotist can easily alter others perceptions, but those " other" still remain Jack and Jill, as before hypnosis. Jack and Jill will perceive differently but are aware of their consciousness, irrespective of their view of the physical world.

That is the perception people have towards religion. A perception of life through the eyes of religious doctrine. I for example, was born into a Christian society. It was a natural awakening to life viewed through the lens of Christian belief, learned over time. Hypnotised you might say, into a conscious world of religious thought, learning right from wrong based on the law of the Christian God, (coincidently the same God as the Jews and Islamists alike).

You see, I'm describing conscious awareness (of self), as opposed to conscious perceptions. (Re; your video link).
Not an awareness of good bad or ugly, but an awareness of existing inside a personal body.

And yes, I would put the Soul in the conscious awareness basket.

I’m not sure what you mean there, diver dan.

<<… the perception of our individual conscious worlds may never entirely line up with each other.>>

Do you just mean that we’ll always disagree? If so, then sure. For so long as you believe in a god, we will always disagree. At least until there is some reliable evidence for a god.

<<Mine is an empirical view of life in general, its all that time ever permitted:>>

This statement makes no sense to me whatsoever, sorry. What does time have to do with an empirical view of life “in general”, and how do you reconcile an empirical view of life (whatever that means) with religious belief?

<<When I say consciousness, I mean by that a consciousness of self, as opposed to conscious perceptions.>>

So do I. I’m talking about consciousness in every respect.

<<A hypnotist can easily alter others perceptions, but those " other" still remain Jack and Jill, as before hypnosis.>>

Physically? Sure. So what? Switching from brain injury to hypnosis doesn’t get you around the issues I raised concerning brain injury, if that’s what you’re trying to do.

<<That is the perception people have towards religion. A perception of life through the eyes of religious doctrine…>>

Okay, now you’ve completely lost me. I have no idea what your indoctrination has to do with anything, sorry.

Perhaps you should just get to the point you’re trying to make? If it’s that consciousness is evidence for a god (and it always is), then just say so and we’ll take it from there.

<<You see, I'm describing conscious awareness (of self), as opposed to conscious perceptions.>>

Yes, I’m referring to all consciousness. The dilemma I realised regarding brain injury applies to all consciousness, and I have explained why in great detail.

<<And yes, I would put the Soul in the conscious awareness basket.>>

Okay, but until you have evidence for the soul, there is no rational reason to do this.

Sorry, diver dan, but all you are doing is fallaciously appealing to ignorance.

I was just thinking, diver dan. What about split-brain patients who develop two distinct personalities existing simultaneously?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFJPtVRlI64

Do such people then have two consciousnesses? And if so, how does something - which you suggest is a mystical entity, independent of our physical bodies - become altered by physical changes? If the consciousness can be altered by physical changes, what reason is there to believe that it will live on after the body dies? And if the consciousness lives on after physical death, does it then revert to its original state?

What about the soul? If you “put the soul in the conscious awareness basket” (which I suspect is nothing more than a fallacious appeal to mystery), then does that mean that a split-brain patient develops a second soul? And if so, do both souls live on after the physical body dies, or does one disappear?

What about when one personality is a Christian while the other is an atheist (as has happened before)? Does the Christian soul go to heaven while the atheist soul burns in hell? And which one was the one planted into the fertilised ovum at conception? Or does that one no longer exist anymore?

Sorry, diver dan, but there is simply no reason to believe that there is anything mystical about consciousness. All the evidence suggests that it is a direct product of the brain.