Please don't play dumb, phanto.

<<So why did you offer it in the first place? Why not immediately go in search of links?>>

To remind you that you are arguing against the existence of something which we can all confirm the existence of through personal experience.

Well, most of us anyway. I'm sorry you can't.

<<You see an attractive woman and your first response is to feel sexual feelings.>>

To varying degrees. For some, it may just be an appreciation for their appearance that I would not feel for a fellow male.

<<This is what all your peers also apparently feel and so they come to the conclusion that we are attracted by sex.>>

Yes, that and the fact that the existence of sexual attraction is well established.

<<This must be very frustrating since there are thousands upon thousands of attractive women and each one causes you to feel sexual arousal.>>

No, that's rare. Increasingly so, too, the older I get.

<<No one could tolerate such frequent arousal.>>

That would be pretty extreme, yes.

<<Constantly suppressing feelings of any type is unhealthy don’t you agree?>>

Absolutely. Serial rapists are sometimes like that.

<<So, on the one hand we have all these experts, with whom you seem to agree, telling us that we are attracted by the desire for sex …>>

Not in the extreme way you're framing it, no.

<<In that case we are not attracted by sex but by the images that we conjure in our heads.>>

Technically, yes.

Now, about that evidence...

If we are attracted to one another by the desire for sex then wouldn’t it be reasonable to ask why we want sex? Do people only have sex for the sake of the sexual pleasure they get? Surely there are lots of reasons for having sex. Things like excitement in an otherwise dull life, loneliness, money, power etc.

Could it be that we are attracted by those things rather than sexual pleasure? We do not need to be with another person in order to have sexual pleasure. All of us are capable of relieving our own sexual tension and relief of sexual tension is the aim of sexual feelings. It is pleasurable however we decide to achieve that aim.

If we do not need sex with another person then why do we have it? What is it about the desire for sex with another person that we truly seek? Of course it may simply be the sexual pleasure but very often it seems that people are prepared to take extreme risks in order to get pleasure which they can have without risk. They can risk family breakup, disease, losing their job or even going to jail just for a few moments of pleasure. They would not take such risks unless there was something more valuable to them than the sexual pleasure to be had.

It would be true to say that these people are not attracted by sex but by something else and that they use sexual behaviour as a substitute for the other perceived value. It seems that from the outside that they are simply responding to sexual feelings but quite obviously they are not.

An observer might say it is just sexuality that attracts them but unless you probe much more deeply into their reasons for having sex you will always being making the wrong conclusions. Just because people have sex does not necessarily mean they are attracted to the sex or the person they are having sex with.

It's not just about sex, phanto.

<<If we are attracted to one another by the desire for sex then wouldn’t it be reasonable to ask why we want sex?>>

But I’ll agree for argument's sake.

<<Surely there are lots of reasons for having sex. Things like excitement … etc.>>

Correct.

<<Could it be that we are attracted by those things rather than sexual pleasure?>>

‘As well as’, not ‘rather than’. If we were attracted to anything but the actual sex, then everyone would be behaving as bisexuals or not in a sexual way at all, and that’s not what we observe.

<<If we do not need sex with another person [to achieve sexual arousal] then why do we have it?>>

Intimacy, companionship. Most would agree that it’s better with someone else, too.

<<What is it about the desire for sex with another person that we truly seek?>>

Deep, but your premise was flawed as it assumed that masturbation and sex are the same. So, there’s no point in going any further, but let’s see what you’ve got anyway...

<<Of course it may simply be the sexual pleasure but very often it seems that people are prepared to take extreme risks in order to get pleasure which they can have without risk.>>

Well, firstly, as I’ve pointed out above, it’s not the same. Secondly, we’re not always rational beings. We have innate drives that can cause us to behave irrationally.

<<It would be true to say that these people are not attracted by sex but by something else and that they use sexual behaviour as a substitute for the other perceived value.>>

And if it weren’t for their sexuality, then they wouldn’t be using sex as a substitute so frequently, if at all.

<<Just because people have sex does not necessarily mean they are attracted to the sex or the person they are having sex with.>>

Sure, but as you can now see, that’s a straw man. Sexuality exists whether you like it or not, and even if it didn’t, your position on marriage equality would STILL be irrational and bigoted.

If people can have sex for reasons other than sexual pleasure how can we tell that they are attracted to any particular person for sexual pleasure?

It seems to me that according to you the existence of sexuality is based on the fact that we are sexually attracted to others - that we want sex with others. We indulge in sexual behaviour because it is reasonable to do so for its own sake. But that is not the only reason why we indulge in sexual behaviour. We also do it because we are lonely or we want to feel powerful or we want to be held or for many other motives.

The sexual behaviour looks exactly the same but the reasons for doing are not the same. Observing sexual behaviour tells us nothing about the reasons why any particular couple are having sex. So you could be attracted to having sex with someone because you hope it will relieve your loneliness, for example. But sexual behaviour cannot relieve loneliness or give you power or help your self-image – it can only give you sexual pleasure. You can try and use the sexual pleasure like a drug to numb the pain of your loneliness or other issues but in the end sex can only give you sexual pleasure.

Ultimately you are trying to get something from sex that it cannot give you. Unless you are having sex for the sake of sexual pleasure then you are acting unreasonably and yet it seems that many people do exactly that.

How can you claim that sexuality exists because we feel sexual attraction when in fact what we really feel is the desire to relieve some pain? How can you know what the real attraction is since the behaviour looks exactly the same whatever the motive? You may well be attracted to someone because they promise to relieve your pain even though sexual behaviour cannot relieve pain.

Where are the samples that allow your conclusion to be drawn with scientific certainty?

I'm quite happy to provide you with that information, phanto.

<<Where are the samples that allow your conclusion to be drawn with scientific certainty?>>

In fact, I've linked to it before for different reasons.

But it's your turn first. You made the claim that sexuality doesn't exist, and I know you would never deliberately want to fallaciously shift the burden of proof, now, would you? After all, relying on the inability of someone else to disprove one's claim is a fallacious appeal to ignorance.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

It's time to stop playing dumb, phanto. Frustrating the discussion by being obtuse is not going to get me to go away, nor are you going to trick me into defending a position which I don't have to defend. The burden of proof still lies with you. I just have to hold you to it.

That being said, I will remind you that even if you can disprove the existence of sexuality, your position on marriage equality is still irrational and bigoted.

After all, equal rights don’t hinge on there being a scientific reason for a behaviour, only that the behaviour not be harmful. And sometimes not even then.

Oh, alright then, phanto.

I’ll respond to your silly, irrelevant points. Your position against same-sex marriage is still irrational and bigoted but, hey, it’ll be fun.

<<… according to you the existence of sexuality is based on the fact that we are sexually attracted to others>>

Correct.

<<We indulge in sexual behaviour because it is reasonable to do so for its own sake.>>

Correct.

<<But that is not the only reason why we indulge in sexual behaviour.>>

Correct.

<<We also do it because we are lonely or we want to feel powerful or we want to be held or for many other motives.>>

Correct.

<<The sexual behaviour looks exactly the same but the reasons for doing are not the same.>>

No, sexual behaviour isn’t just the act of sex.

<<Observing sexual behaviour tells us nothing about the reasons why any particular couple are having sex.>>

That depends on what you mean by “sexual behaviour”.

<<So you could be attracted to having sex with someone because you hope it will relieve your loneliness, for example.>>

Sometimes.

<<But sexual behaviour cannot relieve loneliness or give you power or help your self-image …>>

Ultimately? No. Momentarily? Yes. The behaviour is still sexual (i.e. sexuality) either way, though.

<<Ultimately you are trying to get something from sex that it cannot give you.>>

But it CAN give you those things momentarily.

<<Unless you are having sex for the sake of sexual pleasure then you are acting unreasonably …>>

Not necessarily, there is nothing unreasonable about, say, having sex to maintain or strengthen a long-term relationship.

<<How can you claim that sexuality exists because we feel sexual attraction when in fact what we really feel is the desire to relieve some pain?>>

Oh? So now you’re eliminating sexual pleasure as a motivating factor? That was sudden!

It wouldn’t be because a sexual attraction enhances the pleasure, would it?

<<How can you know what the real attraction is since the behaviour looks exactly the same whatever the motive?>>

Because sexual attraction is still a motive. It doesn’t have to be the only motive for sexuality to exist.