Hi Jo,
If one was to look at the origins of then idea that all persons should be respected it is very difficult to find them other than in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
Pete

Considering Census questions, with comments about the numbers who tick boxes, yet rarely attend services.

Next time ask on Census whether each person regards Christianity as either their

(a) Religious belief,

or

(b) philosophical outlook ?

.

Surely we all have 'values' ? One doesn't have to be a politician or a philosopher, we all have them ? Otherwise what do get up in the morning for ? What move us ? What do we find admirable, of despicable ? What do we tell our kids is right or wrong, good or bad, worthy or not ?

Maybe what we do need are school programs which stimulate moral or values program, to explore why slavery or second-class citizenship are bad, why dedication to others is admirable, and everything in between. As well, the basis for those values should be made explicit in schools - the equality of men and women (isn't that a 'value' ?), the history behind the need to keep religion and the State separate, the importance of the rule of law for all equally, and so on ?

It may be fun, like those ditzes on 'The Feed' to look blankly at the camera and say, scornfully, "Australian Values ?! What are they ?!" But even they have values, even if they are never thought about them. We all do. What are yours ? What would you stand up for ? March in the streets for ? That's 'values', like it or not.

Joe

Dear Joe,

Perfectly correct observation - we all have values.

Usually we have a mix of values that can be broadly classified into three categories: Dark, Ambitious and Serene (in Hindu tradition, Tamas, Rajas and Sattva).

It is common for people not to acknowledge all their values and even suppress some of them during the day - then these tend to come out at night in our dreams.

«Maybe what we do need are school programs which stimulate moral or values program»

Yes, we do, this is true education, it's noble and it's something that religion is supposed to do (when functional, I'm not talking about dead wood), leading us from darkness to ambition, from ambition to serenity, then from serenity to God (however, the last leg of the journey transcends all values, so is beyond the scope of this discussion).

In a way, your listing of values to enquire and refine is an attempt to create a new religion, but then you seem to contradict yourself when on the one hand you want the state to sponsor this religion while on the other, to separate religion and state.

Unfortunately, your new religion is controversial in the current climate and would be opposed as "politically incorrect" just like any other religion, by those who value the dark and want to remain there.

Hi Yuyutsu,

A J Phillips could easily rip into your false logic there, that

* value systems are religions;

* that the State supports any such value systems;

* therefore the State supports all religions;

* therefore it is contradictory to talk about the separation of religion and the State.

I would disagree with all of those premises, and of course, the conclusion.

As an atheist, and an ex-Marxist to compound the problem, I'm always trying to identify what I think are the best values that I can live by, or at least good ones, but I don't have any religious or political crutches to assist me, and I don't think it's a religious process particularly. No big deal, I just keep ploughing on, trying to weigh up the best options.

Almost every issue of daily general concern has a moral or value side to it, so it's a matter of constant decision-making. And I'm sure that very many of us go through that process all the time. I certainly hope so, because that's surely one way, at least, of becoming a better human being, a lifelong task.

Plus, I chuck in a bit of fun as well :)

Joe

Dear Joe,

Like yourself, I also disagree with the above four premises. Clearly, not every value system is a religion. What I suggested is that the particular process of education for introspection which you offered, constitutes an attempt to create a new religion.

«I'm always trying to identify what I think are the best values that I can live by»

To me this seems to be a religious act. Why otherwise try to choose good over evil?

«and I don't think it's a religious process particularly.»

People can, for example, take a cold shower and a jog in the morning without thinking that it is a particularly healthy process, yet it probably assists their health whether they think so or not.

Likewise, whether or not you classify your thoughts and actions as "religious" does not alter the fact that they are.

«And I'm sure that very many of us go through that process all the time.»

Indeed, religion is not the monopoly of those who believe in the supernatural, etc.

«because that's surely one way, at least, of becoming a better human being, a lifelong task.»

Becoming a better human being is indeed commonly a lifelong task as well as an important religious stage. I wouldn't stop there, but it's a great start in itself.