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Dear Yuyutsu,

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You ask :

« Do you participate in life unwillingly? »
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We all do, Yuyutsu. We do not come into this life of our own free will. We have no say in the matter. We are conceived by our genitors who usually become our parents, i.e., they care for us until we are considered to be sufficiently autonomous to look after ourselves.

You add :

If so, « you would by now have had plenty of opportunities to jump off a bridge »
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That is correct but the large majority of us do not “jump off the bridge” because, whether we like it or not, we are born not only with the “instinct of survival”, but more than that, with the “desire to live” and “reproduce”.

Desires are what keep us alive. Without desires our lives would whittle away and the reproductive process would grind to a halt. Desires are natural, healthy and essential to life, but it is in our best interests to keep them under control in a socially acceptable and reasonable fashion.

You then indicate :

« we know that the human organism has built-in survival and reproductive mechanisms, but those are not desires »
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Yes they are, Yuyutsu. Thirst is a desire to drink. Hunger is a desire to eat. A sexual urge is a desire to reproduce. There are many biological or physiological desires. Some are controlled by human conscience. Some are not. Some are psychological (desire for power and fortune, desire to be admired, etc.) Some are a combination of biological/physiological and psychological desires (pain, pleasure, fear, fright etc.).

According to Hobbes, “human desire is the fundamental motivation of all human action”.

Many philosophers, psychologists and others have expressed various theories on “desires” but, to my knowledge, none of them has ever suggested that they are “irrational”. Wikipedia provides a fairly comprehensive round-up these theories :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire

Steven Reiss, Psychology and Psychiatry professor at the Ohio State University, came up with a list of 16 basic human desires after interviewing more than 6,000 people :

http://explorable.com/16-basic-desires-theory

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Dear Banjo,

You write: "We are conceived by our genitors who usually become our parents". However, only our bodies are conceived by their genitors, so the question remains: why would you or I want to have anything to do with this body and its genitors? Why should we take it personally and care whether and how that particular body functions, whether and how it looks after itself and survives?

Nothing explains that other than our [irrational] desire to associate ourselves with that body.

The body may (and does) have its instincts, but nothing rationally tells us to prefer and strive for having those instincts fulfilled. All we can say about it is that it's our primitive desire to do so.

The 16 basic "desires" that you listed can be explained away as electric/biochemical stimulations of the brain. If we accepted these as "desires", we would similarly need to accept the electronic impulses within computer chips as such, but then also we would similarly be speaking about the desires of the wind, the desire of fire to burn, the desires of the waves of the sea and even of the desires of a brick to remain attracted to the earth rather than BRexit to the moon.

It may well be that those 16 impulses keep our bodies alive, but that could well happen without our involvement in the process.

It appears that our own [irrational] desires can, to varying extents, override or even overcome those natural impulses. Experience shows that our ability to override those impulses can be improved over time with practice.

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Dear George,

<<I think there is a difference between thinking (analysing and deciding) and actually acting.>>

Of course, but this difference is quantitative, not qualitative. On that continuum, between those two, we usually also list "speaking": thinking-speaking-acting. One could even insert "frowning"/"smiling" in-between "thinking" and "speaking".

<<Conscious or subconscious desires might befog the rationale of our decision making process but thinking based on desires only is called wishful thinking lacking objectivity.>>

Thinking would never occur without any desires. A rational act requires both: desire plus calculation.

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Dear Yuyutsu,

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You wrote :

« … only our bodies are conceived by their genitors … »
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I think the “only” in that sentence is an allusion to your religious belief, that we human beings possess a “soul” or a “spirit”, in addition to our physical bodies.

I’m afraid I don’t share that religious belief (though my mind remains open to any new evidence that might come to light at some future time).

In the meantime, neither you nor I, nor anybody else for that matter, has any way of knowing if there really is such a thing as a “soul” or a “spirit”.

I feel it’s important, Yuyutsu, that you draw a clear distinction between “fact” and “belief” (of whatever nature). Otherwise, I’m afraid, it’s impossible for us to have a meaningful discussion about anything.
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You also wrote :

« The body may (and does) have its instincts, but nothing rationally tells us to prefer and strive for having those instincts fulfilled »
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The problem, Yuyutsu, is that there are certain instincts which do not pass by our conscience and over which we have no control whatsoever. They are activated automatically. In the animal kingdom we call them “instincts”. Plants have a similar faculty which is also triggered automatically to help them survive when they come under attack and their lives are in danger. They have no control over that faculty either.

Perhaps the best way of thinking of it is that nature has programmed all living species with an “instinct of survival”, a “life instinct” and a “reproductive instinct” and, except for a small percentage waste (an “aberration of nature”) the programme cannot be modified, overwritten or deleted.

Like any fixed computer programme, it is perfectly rational (written in logical sequence) and indifferent to our personal preferences. Nor does it make any difference whether we “strive to fulfill” it or not. It simply computes what it is programmed to compute and that’s it.

By the way, the faculty applies to life species, not wind, fire, sea waves and bricks which you mentioned.

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Here's some soul-searching for you ...

http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/nPrWo5pEvyk?rel=0

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Dear Yuyutsu,

I think we have different understandings also of the words thought, thinking and action, acting. Every court will make a difference between whether you intended (thought) to kill somebody or whether you actually did the killing. I can think of sending you $1000 but you will agree that this is very much different from actually doing the bank transfer.

The same with desires, i.e. “a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen” in my dictionary. You are right that thinking would never occur without a decision (rather than desire) to think, but “strong feelings” are usually detrimental to clear thinking.

Dear Banjo,

The concept of "soul" (or "spirit") is not necessary here - If I were to discuss it, this would only complicate things and take us away from the simple point that I made.

With no further metaphysics and ado, regardless what you are, the fact is (I presume, since it is subjective and only you can really tell) that YOU desire whatever it is that you desire.

Yes, there are instincts of which we are not conscious and/or cannot control (at least not without extensive training: some yogis are known to control their heart-beat and much more, but lets not digress into it now). Why do you call it a "problem"?

In the extreme case, suppose bodies can do all that they do, including even talk and sing and comment in this forum, without our involvement: that's fine, I don't see a problem with it. Computers also do what they do according to the way they were programmed; the wind does what it does too out of necessity, yet all this does not explain your involvement with this particular body you call "yours" - what have you to do with it in the first place, especially as it could do the same without you?

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Dear George,

I don't deny the differences between thought and action and I believe that courts are correct in making this distinction. I simply believe that the difference between the two is only in degree, rather than fundamental. One moves their whole body while another only causes certain neurons in their brain to fire. Yet again, someone in between could move their mouth, but no other organs.

Yes, strong feelings are born of desires. If one attempts to think rationally and clearly in order to serve one desire, it is very common for strong feelings arising from a different desire to cloud their thinking.