Greetings Yuyutsu:
You write: "My point simply was that belief of any kind is not a requisite for religion."

Disabuse your readership then; Of what is religion comprised, if it can exist without any kind of belief as a component?
You believe in a god, so your religion has a god as an ingredient. I believe I love the woman I live with. According to your divine doctrine am I a religious person? It is a prospect that I find quite risible and requires "special pleading" which in rational argument disqualifies the pleader from participating.

First, you define religion; "Religion is defined as any process or practice that brings one closer to God...."

The word "definition" in this context means that every property, every nuance, every interpretation of religion is reflected in that definition of yours. To add to it or detract from it would render that definition useless.

If you define religion as "any process or practice", then cleaving strictly to context and the sense in which you are relying we face the question of an arbitrator or an existing set of rules or an intuitive revelation that distinguishes between those processes or practices that bring one closer to god and those that lead us elsewhere. How are we informed that we chose the correct process or practice? Are we guided by a sacred telepathy with no voluntary input or are we guided by a set of rote-learned doctrinal beliefs?

I challenge anyone to examine the immediately past one hour of his or her life, identify and count the number of times their mind resorted to "belief" and in the next hour use their minds without resorting to any "belief" whatsoever. It becomes immediately apparent we cannot perform processes or practices without using a multitude of beliefs. A BELIEF IN GOD is a must for the processes and practices to have any sense and meaning.

THEREFORE, ERGO AND IPSO FACTO, your statement; ".....belief of any kind is not a requisite for religion." contradicts the "definition" of religion that you presented in the first place. Cont......

Greetings Yuyutsu cont......

You wrote: "I have no idea why you presented this account about the BB. How is this relevant?"

It was a compliment that I extended to you. I was affording you the opportunity to make a case for religion to be the fifth fundamental force in the Universe. Should there be a GUT [Grand Unifying Theory] many scientists hold that a fifth force is required. It would have been interesting to say the least to see you rise to the challenge.

I hope my dissertation was not entirely wasted and that others were aware of what I was doing.

You write: "I have no problem sitting patiently to answer your questions in detail, such as about the history of religion or the efficacy of subservience,....."

Despite any forbodings I might have, I earnestly request that you do so. In fact it should not have been necessary that you be asked. It is fundamental to your case and will severely limit the credibility your readers will afford you if you neglect this request. So, with my most previous post in mind please give it a go.

You write: "My argument is thus with Christians and others who at least believe in religion - not with you."

Had you stated this in your first post, then I may have had second thoughts. However, I confess to being sorely tempted any time I see a "special plea" being offered in support of religious faith accompanied by re-definitions of words and analogy and non-sequiturs being presented as rational evidence. I suffer the same deficiency that Oscar Wilde revealed when he declared that he could resist everything but temptation.

You write: "From your posts so far, I have the impression [a]that you do not believe that ANYTHING can lead people closer to God. [b]In other words, you believe that religion does not exist. Cont......

Yutsie: According to the story of the Blind Men and an Elephant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant),

I just loved that poem ever since I read in the old "Arthur Mees Encyclopaedia" many, many years ago. Very true.

Geoff of Perth: http://youtu.be/pTbIu8Zeqp0

Thanks for that link. I had noted those similarities myself many years ago. The Doco is obviously flawed in places, as Yutsie pointed out, but then again, so are most Doco's I ever seen. The Producer adds things to make the argument or script flow more fluidly, or, in the case of Religious Doco's, to bend the truth to suit their own particular sect. Particularly if they are TV Evangelists or Southern Baptists. I remember one claiming that Jesus was actually American.

Last night I watched "The Clash of the Titans" an old movie. A quote from the Movie, "Humans are lucky when they die. They go to a better place. The Gods only go on to oblivion." Very poignant.

After the Battle is over & the Old Gods had been killed or died There was a couple of very interesting scenes. One when Perseus comes to find the "Navigator," The Navigator is the Human Son of a God. Who, strangely, looks like Jesus. He points to his Carer, who is bandaging his foot (note) & introduces her as "Miriam." Jesus is sometimes known as "The Navigator" in Legend. A Hint at the coming of a new age. The age of Christianity.

Then, the final scene takes place on a mountain top. Perseus, the Son of Zeus tells his son that his time is over & offers his son his sword. The son reaches up & takes the sword & it is extremely heavy & almost drops it, but he does raise the sword to the heavens. Hinting at the coming of Islam.

cont.

I have been a legend & Myth reader all my life. Mostly in Ignorance of their deeper meanings. I have found that most are Allegories & have two or more stories or meanings woven into them. The Story of King Arthur, The Three Musketeers, Don Quixote, The Inferno, even the Bible. A common theme runs through them all. The quest for the triumph of Good over Evil. Usually meaning War because of what each of us believe to be "Good" or "Evil."

The writer of these scripts, from thousands of years ago to now certainly knew how to put things into words.

I had some lovely JH's ladies come to my door one day They asked me if I knew what caused all the Misery & Suffering in the World. I told them that I just happened to know the answer to that. "Women & Religion." They didn't stay.

Greetigs Yuyutsu cont.......

As for [a]: gods, demons, ghosts, goblins etc, etc are pathologies of the mind and exist only in the minds of the afflicted. My earliest memories of religion are of Sunday School at around age 6 or 7 years, being confronted by tales that seemed obvious fairy-type stories that I remembered from kindergarten about animals that talked, people who lived 700 years, Adam and Eve being the first humans yet their kids married people from another place and being very much negatively impressed with the adults that were telling me this piffle. My mother gave up after a year or two and by age 12 I was an atheist, I knew why and I knew what that meant. I was and am still convinced gods do not exist except in the imaginations of some people. On the Dawkins scale I am a 7

As for [b]: Your assertion is patently wrong and pretty silly as well. It's perfectly obvious that religions exist. They try to insinuate themselves into every stratum of society plagiarising ancient wisdom and mixing it with some of the most ridiculous superstition ever to emerge from ancient historical sources. It forever seeks political influence but hysterically denies accountability. How you could possibly preface your assertion with; "In other words...." astonishes me. To even imply that [b] follows logically from [a] is arrant nonsense

You write: "you should agree that as nobody can be religious, it logically follows that nobody can be religious AND violent simultaneously."

I have never said that no one can be religious. Please provide a reference or quote in context that supports your allegation. What you say logically follows might follow hindu logic, but has nought to do with mainstream logic. I have noted your proclivity for the non-sequitur and hasten to advise that it does your overall case no good whatsoever.

Dear Pogi,

As defined, religion is comprised of all acts or omissions, made consciously or otherwise, which brings one closer to God. All that matters for this particular discussion is that violence is not among those acts (in fact violence takes one away from God, but if you believe it impossible for one to come either closer or further from God, then that's OK too).

Belief in gods or God can be a powerful religious technique, but it is not the only one and it does not suit everyone.

A famous example of an unconscious religious act is described in http://blog.onlineprasad.com/stories-of-shiva-purana-lord-shiva-and-the-hunter, fuller version in http://duleshwarmahadev.org/history.html - this hunter was ignorant, he didn't believe in anything except that he had to feed his family, but unknowingly he performed religious acts of the highest order which united him with God.

I never claimed that determining one's level of religiosity is easy, but scripture provides some basic indicators and is clear about the fact that violence is incompatible. You say that you love the woman you live with: while I cannot tell for sure, this is quite possibly a religious act (but if instead you were to beat her, then I could quite confidently say that it is not).

Regarding the BB, thanks for the compliment, but as Jesus said: "Render unto Caesar what is his", I leave such questions about the natural world and the forces that drive it for science. However, science is for making a living, not for living by.

<<It is fundamental to your case and will severely limit the credibility your readers will afford you if you neglect this request>>

I will honour your request when I have more time, but my only case here is the incompatibility between violence and religion. Do any readers dispute it?

<<It's perfectly obvious that religions exist>>

It's perfectly obvious that claimants-for-religion exist.

<<I have never said that no one can be religious>>

Have you then, despite your Sunday-school experience and the notion-of-God they taught there which you abhor, changed your mind and now consider it possible to come closer to God?