The momentum behind the rioting seems to have slowed down after the imposition of a curfew: "no one under the age of 16 is allowed out unaccompanied by an adult between 11 at night and 6 the next morning" (BBC News).

So I wonder how much of the rioting was a cry for help against injustices and poverty in France, and how much of it was just following the mob and running amok admist a period of seeming lawlessness

Bronwyn

After your waffling at length about the alleged political and social reasons for the riots, your third last para (about the "lack of gendered analysis") finally rings true.

YOUNG MALE THUGS, be they criminals or classed as "terrorists" appear to be at the root of most violence.

When they grow into older thugs, in a position of greater power, they're even a greater problem.

That this young thugism can be explained or legitimised as some sort of ethnic or religious "cry for help" is pathetic. Yes in some communities it is considered admirable to be young blood who can prove it.

The ethnic profiling of groups prone to violence, be they pack rapists, thugs outside court houses or would-be bombers, is justifiable due to the sheer volume of violent "hits" occurring amongst young men from that particular ethnic community (starting with L).

I do not want harsher anti terrorism laws but recognise that it is a reaction to the wrong groups being allowed in. Equally I don't want the level of street violence that France is experiencing.

Hence deterrents to illegal immigration, like detention centres, are not such a bad idea.

Oh such a long post…..
You say
If France is, as The Australian suggests, “paranoid” about the “infiltration” of foreign words and culture, Australia is paranoid about the “infiltration” of foreigners, full stop.

You forgot the ILLEGAL bit in, “infiltration” of foreigners, full stop. I do not see visa granted stopped. Full Stop? Have you? Full stop.

This is no doubt evidenced by the fact Australian Muslims are being vilified as never before – Vilified - To make vicious and defamatory statements about. Mmmm! Where are these vicious and defamatory statements being made? Please?

I stopped half way through. Sort of got boring this Australia, USA is evil post.

Sorry.

Oh by the way did you post something about how stupid it is the USA is being ridiculed for the attempting to give people freedom?

Or that the French, Germans and Russians provided the technology for the chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and were principal armers of Iraq?

And lets not mention the oil for food scandal?

Maybe on a positive note maybe you can congratulate the US for reducing greenhouse emissions over the last 2 years without signing Kyoto. How many Other countries say that?

So the author asks where the women were in the tattered remains of the great gallic social model as displayed by violent idiots?

The Brussels Journal Blog at http://www.brusselsjournal.com/ seems to think that the Mayor of one French town knows exactly what has been happening to them...

Allons Enfants de la Jihad
From the desk of Paul Belien on Tue, 2005-11-08 15:01

Yesterday, Michel Pajon, the mayor of Noisy-le-Grand near Paris, asked for the French army to intervene and stop the violence which is taking over France. The mayor – a Socialist – went on French radio to say that what is happening in his country is absolutely appalling:

“Women have been made to stop on the streets of my town. They were dragged from their cars by their hair, they were practically stoned and their cars were set ablaze... The situation is absolutely dramatic and inacceptable. This is a real scandal. I sound the alarm bell in my town. If the state is incapable of defending us, we will have no choice but to defend ourselves. My town has a psychiatric hospital which has been attacked with molotov cocktails. This is beyond comprehension. I have never seen anything like this in my entire life. I do not ask for the resignation of the Interior Minister [Nicolas Sarkozy]. I want him to do his job. At the moment he is not doing his job.

Send in the army? I do not know, for a socialist to say that the army has to intervene is an inconceivable admission of defeat, but what I can say is that one cannot abandon the people like this. At some point we need to know whether this country still has a state.”

The two papers in question, according to Professor Winter, were correct when they ‘quite rightly’ condemned marginalisation of France’s Muslim minorities. Further on she mentions ‘.. the social, economic and cultural neglect that has disenfranchised Muslim….minorities…’.

Who does one believe when looking for the origins of the rioting?

Other writers claim that it was the Muslims themselves who insisted on not integrating. Agreements between the EU and the Arab League are referred to which have seen Muslims forming enclaves that the rioters and activists among them are now calling ‘occupied territories’ where they don’t want the police to go. The self-imposed segregation, it is claimed, has been in existence for 40 years. French-born Muslims show no allegiance to France. The self-imposed isolation is occurring all over Europe.

One noted Muslim in Paris, Dalil Boubakeur has even called for France to enter into an agreement to grant Muslims autonomy within the state.

Rather than blaming the situation on the French government, the media should perhaps be looking at what Theodore Dalrymple believes is a jihad in Europe, only just beginning

I would hesitate before suggesting that the french army intervene. This is the only guarnteed route to total moslem domination of a big chunk of the EEU (being France). Lets be serious, get the frech army to intervene without external support? They would surrender in a week! Finally, Frances anti-semetic pigeons have come home to roost (vive la Dreyfuss).

I bet the Germans would be quite willing to assist, they have definately had more success in operations in France. Not too sure how the population would react, although the majority didn't act all that affronted last time.

It is like the joke;
the Americans have raised their state of alert from yellow to amber.
the french have raised theirs from run to hide.

c'est la guerre

I have rarely read such a rambling and almost incoherent rant from someone who is supposed to be a journalist. It is perfectly clear that Bronwyn Winter is absolutely mortified about predictable failure of multiculturalism in France and she is desperately looking for somebody other than her beloved Muslim minorities to blame for it.

Anything will do, the “inefficiency of French assimilationist policies", “social exclusion”, “social, cultural and economic neglect” and, of course, that well used and never fail chestnut, “racism.” She even has the gall to claim that France is not looking after it’s minorities “ well enough.”

Dear Bronwyn.

Multiculturalism has been a bloody disaster with every society that has ever been cursed with it. What makes you think that France, or even Australia, will be any different?

The importation of ever increasing numbers of crime prone and welfare dependent people from cultures who values are diametrically opposed to that of the host country, is absolutely guaranteed to create an unbridgeable social divide. This divide will increase as birth rate differentials and increased immigration cause the immigrant groups numbers to increase to a point where they become a political threat to the majority. The result is, and always has been, civil strife, race riots, demands for separatism and eventually, civil war.

I hold this truth to be self evident and it is as immutable as the Law of Gravity. No amount of dreamy idealism can alter it’s outcome one iota.

The problems in France were predictable and avoidable. France has now joined the ever lengthening list of strife torn countries that wishes it was a monocultural society that has strong social cohesion and no suicide bombers or riot happy minorities. As such, France is now a perfect object lesson for posterity.

Doesn't anybody get it?

Muslims hate christians. They were once a great empire, are very proud and still can't get over the fact that they're not.

Muslims hate the west because of their arrogant policies in the middle east (Israel, Palestine.) Can anyone blame them?

Muslims (in the Arab world) can't believe that with all their oil they are not a great empire, and are being walked over by the west (ie. once again: Israel/palestine).

Muslims are so fustrated that they have in recent years turned to their religious roots and muslim identity with such extreme dedication that they have been able to substitute plane hijackings with suicide bombers to get their message across to the arrogant west regarding once again, the Israel/palestine issue.

The West has then allowed all these angry fustrated proud muslims who have gone back to their tradtional roots into their countries thinking they are dying to embrace western culture and will assimilate.

That's it.

What Australia should do to avoid going the way of Europe?
Stop supporting Iraq.
Help the Middle east peace process towards the creation of a Palestinian state.
Place a moratorium on further immigration of muslims into Australia, or at least the fundamentalist muslims.
Kick out the ones who are making trouble.

Great post from someone who actually knows a lot about the situation in France, rather than just relying on newspaper reports with a high degree of spin. Take careful note of what Bronwyn has said and don't be so quick to shoot the messenger.

Not quite right, Minuet.

Muslims don’t just hate Christians, they hate everybody. Catholics, Prots, Orthodox, Hindus, Buddhists all get along with each other OK. But everybody has a problem with Muslims. Muslims think that Muslims are one thing and everybody else on the planet is something else. That might be termed “racism”. But you will never hear western “social progressives” complaining about Muslim racism any more than you will hear western feminists complaining about Muslim treatment of women. To people like Scooper9, Sneaky Peter and Mahatma Sitting Duck, anybody who hates the west is OK and beyond criticism.

Muslims hate the west because western civilisation is beating Islamic civilisation. They also hate us because of the Crusades, which most Muslims think happened just last week. Just like Nazi programming of the Hitler Youth, Muslim children have been indoctrinated to believe that the Crusades were manifestations of western aggression against Islam, instead of them being the western response to four hundred years of Muslim aggression against Christianity.

Muslims have returned to their religious roots because they are dumb. They know that Islam was once the pre eminent power in the world and they put that down entirely to Allah’s grace. These dummies think that the reason why they are failing is because they have become “westernised” which has offended Allah. Therefore, they way to become powerful again is to become totally Islamic again in order to get God’s grace again. That is why there are so many Islamic fundamentalist movements trying to turn back the clock to the 13th Century. Smart huh? That’s what comes from breeding with your cousins for too long.

As for the creation of a Palestinian state, well guess what Minuet? They have that already. And just like every other overpopulated Muslim cesspit it is economically kaput. Without wealthy Muslim societies funding Palestinian aggression against Israel, “Palestine” would be totally broke. So “Palestine” needs to keep the war simmering along. Stopping the war by recognising Israel’s right to exist would be like killing the Golden Goose.

France isn't multicultural. If anything it is monocultural. It takes pride in its secularism (eg, banning of muslim headscarfs, jewish yamukas, christian crosses and other religious symbols in public schools) and it has no affirmative action policies. France does not recognise minorities as separate cultures. Government policies and so forth are forbidden from questioning the origins of people. Everyone who lives there must speak French and are assumed to become French. This may well pose a problem for certain groups of people.

This article is a joke. These pigs have been rioting in France rioting for weeks, burning thousands of cars and buses, attacking innocent civilians, in one case some youths doused a bus in petrol while people were on it and set it alight. There was a disabled lady in a wheelchair who was severely burned. Why are there no gangs of poor white kids from the poor underprivelleged suburbs rioting? Don't dare try to consider that there are no poor white kids in France. Like in Australia, there are many more areas that have underprivelleged classes of whites such as Wyong, Gosford, Woy Woy, Newcastle, Campletown, Ingleburn etc. These areas have similar populations to areas like Bankstown, Fairfield, Cabramatta and they have the smae high levels of unemployment(however there is one difference, Bob carr recently described the Lebanese gangs in western sydney as "fully employed in the illegal car reburthing racket", also the Vietnamese gangs and Middle-eastern gangs who are, as "minority peoples", supplying the whole country with narcotics-sure they are all on the dole, but unlike the white kids or the aboriginal kids who are visibly poor and destitute, these ethnic thugs have money and expensive cars and guns) that don't do what the idiots in France have done. You watch, when just one injustice happens against the muslim community here in Australia, they will errupt, like the blacks in the LA riots, they were constantly bombarded with reasons for their anger from the left that it was white man's fault, when in fact there are lots of poor people, many of whom are white(if not more who are white, and instead of help and sympathy poor white people are laughed at and joked about-white trash, trailer park trash, etc)and it is not a racial issue atleast these days in the western world. After they errupt in Bankstown, ask yourself this :
When the white kids in Macquarie fields rioted why did they only target the police? Why did they not go into the city and loot, bash and burn the innocent?

Bronywn Winter, a good riposte to our collective prejudices.

Why am I not surprised that so many of the replies fairly reek of prejudice?

As though one steps over some arbitrary, skinny border into a lump of humanity (let's call it France) and suddenly and magically, everything changes; attitudes, needs, ethnic mix. How convenient for a quick judgement, before going back to the cricket score or out for a bit of retail therapy.

"Ask not for whom the bell tolls" (look it up, critics).

The world IS multicultural, and that has to be the baseline for any politician these days, no matter where they live, no matter where they choose to draw their personal "line of power" in the sand. The reality is that ordinary people are the same everywhere, no matter their ethnicity, religion or colour. The only fault-lines worth a damn are between those of us who are ridiculously fortunate and those who are unjustifiably unfortunate. All else is mere decoration.

* * *

The (well co-ordinated) French riots cannot be explained away as a collapse of civility alone. We tend to fixate on the losers and judge them according to our prejudices. It makes us feel superior.

We must also ask, "Who benefits?" There lies a task worthy of our collective intellects. Therein lies the seed.

Kermit Roosevelt overthrew a government and overturned a society, armed with no more than a suitcase full of money and artful use of prejudice. Religion supplied the blinkers and testosterone greased the rails. That ol' rascal Kermit set a new benchmark in geopolitics.

Now that we are all becoming a little nervous of civil unrest in Australia, it might be a good idea to take a holiday from our prejudices, and deny ourselves the pleasure of that feeling of superiority, no matter the temptation.

Instead, let's gaze unflinchingly at the winners in this game. Who's powers will be consolidated? Who's friends will be enriched?

Happy sleuthing, possums!

Dear Chris
its not a 'cartoon' happening in France, its real.

You can woffle on about 'prejudice' but that is the gutless and soft way out.

Mathew S gave a pretty good overview. Why not actually dispute his points, rather than Jackboot us with 'The World IS... Multicultural'

I'm sorry Chris, it is only as 'multicultural' as we allow it to be, in our neck fo the woods anyway, and from what I'm observing, there is a movement to 'mono-culturalize' Australia and seek a workable national identity.

The converse of your cynical snide remark about 'Who benefits' from all this, can equally be thrown back at YOURSELF.. and we hereby ask,

1/ Are you a migration agent who has a vested financial interest in assylum seekers ?
2/ Are you a democrat ? in which case I think some real world therapy might be in order.
3/ Are you a Green ? in which case, your view does not matter anyway as its based on directions which might be described as cultural and social apostacy towards the rest of us.
4/ Are you a Socialist ? in which case, the theory has been well shown to be untenable and unworkable.

Happy sleuthing.

I am sick and tired of hearing the words "multicultural" and multiculuralism".

There is noting wrong with the concept "multiculturalism", when it means respecting and celebrating our many differences, as the multiculturalists themselves will tell you.

Except that that is only 5% of the story. Actually, in practice, multiculturalism means that you cannot criticize any non-western cultural practices and it means that Christian-based Western ideas and practices are always inferior if not wrong. The West is evil, the rest is great, and if it is not great, it is because the West did something bad to them 1, 10, 100 or even 1000 years ago. It is never their fault that they are poor, corrupt, hungry, angry, and killing each other or somebody else.

The article is based upon this premise. The failure of some immigrant groups is caused by (fill in the blanks). Nowhere does Ms Winter even consider the possibility that the immigrants and muslims (mostly the same) may have contributed to the situation.

Why to the millions of latinos in Europe not have the same propblem? Why do the hindus in Britain not have the same problems as the Muslims? Why aren't the poles and hungarians in France revolting?

Yes, there are many causes for the riots in France, but the base ingredient is Islam. Islam is what makes it easy and Islam is what gives meaning to their actions. More and more "Youths" will turn to Islam (and not just any Islam, but the radical form), because it justifies their violence and gives it a theoretical base upon which to interrelate and grow.

It will get worse.

Kactuz

except that yjru don't mean what the "politically Correct" proponents

Kaktuz,

Missed your 5 daily postings, glad you are back.

Rioting is a political/economical statement. Here are facts on rioting in our own backyard:

* Redfern & Macquarie park were Aussies who believed they are discrimnated against or let down by the system.

* The 300 students of the wealthy Catholic school in Bondi who got drunk and went rioting vandalising cars and terrorising tourists (I was there that night) were 5 generation Aussies.

None of the above are Muslims.

Your selective focus on Islam and Muslims is really interesting because you don't seem to write about anything else. Did you 'lose' a family member to Islam?

Adios.

Dear Redneck, the hate by muslims toward the west got going in the late 60's. As far as I understand it, the fundamentalist Islamic movement was revived after the 1967 six day war between Egypt Jordan etc and Israel.

Before that, women in the mid east were even wearing mini skirts and high heels. That humiliating defeat following the original humiliation of Israel being created in the first place by the British, led to thinking that Arab muslims were being punished by Allah.

Hence the revival of traditional Islam, all these ready made suicide bombers, and hatred towards the west.

To Fellow Human.

The race riot in Redfern involved people of aboriginal descent who were given an entire street of new houses in Redfern so that they could maintain their “aboriginal” identity instead of adopting an Australian one. Criminal behaviour is primarily a product of low intelligence coupled with the attitude that you do not identify with your own community, and also the notion that your community owes you a living. Poverty can no longer be used as an excuse for criminality, because criminal behaviour is rising while the world is now living through a period of unprecedented prosperity, and the majority of “poor” people in most communities are law abiding.

I say “most” because there are certain ethnicities noted for their criminal behaviour while there are others who are noted for their social cohesion, exemplary behaviour and very low crime rates.

The Macquarie Field’s riot was caused by Anglo criminals with low intelligence that viciously attacked the society which provided them with a home and is paying their dole. Don’t tell me the poor dears can not get a job, because as a former Housing Commission tenant I have lived among people just like the Macquarie Fields rioters and I know exactly how they think. Quite frankly, they would rather steal than work. The entire Campbelltown area is a new industrial park where I am working right now and there are jobs aplenty. Exactly how many of the rioters were Anglos and how many from other ethnicities I do not know. But residents in Campbelltown call it “Tongatown” and 75% of the inmates in juvenile detention in that area are Pacific Islanders.

The behaviour of the students at Bondi is hardly in the same league as the burning of tens of thousands of cars, the shooting at police, murder, or the setting fire to a disabled woman. One presumes that the drunken students are now very shamefaced about their behaviour, which is something I doubt about the Muslims in France who are obviously expressing their hatred of the French society in which they live.

Watch how all the social apoligists are coming out of the woodwork defending 30yrs of unplanned,politically correct immigration policies in France.So the the native French are the to blame ,they are the racists who couldn't afford more social security so many of these people could run their criminal activities.

The French opened their hearts and country to an ignorant,ungreatful race that either didn't want to work or have the skills and intelligence to make a living in an once affluent country.Had many of these people stayed in Africa they would have either starved or lived at a subsistance level,and look how greatful they are.Africa probably can develop and prosper,but it may take hundreds of years of evolution for it to happen as it did in Europe.Help them in their own country.

As I've said previously if the French had invited the Chinese there,they would be now complaining that the Chinese are running all of their businesses.There would be no civil war,just the happy hum of prosperity.

What the left don't like is that their ideals which they gleefully rammed down our throats all these years under the cloak of political correctness are fately flawed.A happy and productive civilisation does not materalise out of feel good assumptions that all races are equal in every respect.

If you want to know how good a horse is,look at it's track record and place your bet accordingly.

"It also neglected to mention that the Australian Senate’s 2004 inquiry into poverty concluded the number of Australians living in poverty ranged from 2 to 3.5 million, that is, ten to 17.5 per cent of the population, depending on which measure was used. That is, these two model “growth economies”, Australia and the US, have poverty rates that are higher than France’s official unemployment rate."

Unfortunately, this is not suprising. Australia has massive socio-economic problems which are being largely ignored by complacent politicians and journalists. GNP growth rates are not a reflection of living standards. Look at the U.K. for example. It has one of the strongest "growth economies" in Western Europe. However, in terms of national living standards, it was ranked 29th - the lowest of the pre-expansion EU nations. Researchers said although the U.K. achieved high income per capita, it had high levels of social and family breakdown.

In conclusion, I'm glad somebody decided to remind these smug, insular journos not to throw stones, especially when Australia is hardly a shining example of socio-economic success. I'd much rather be unemployed in France or Germany than underemployed in Australia.

Oligarch/Bronwyn

And the point of your last post is…..?

Let me suggest that the riots of self justifying young thugs in particular ethnic groups occur regardless of statistical measures of poverty and unemployment.

Are you arguing that once Australia mimics France’s poverty/unemployment levels we too can experience the joys of widespread ethnic violence?

Can’t you see that you are providing an excellent argument for limiting emigration from undeveloped (Muslim) countries.

You appear to have gotten up peoples noses rather than made them more sympathetic to the Franco-African lads who fire bomb.

I trust that the next time you visit the salons of Paris you do not walk in some areas wearing a dress. I understand certain Muslim lads (and it appears their fathers) do not tolerate dresses. Reading this Reuters News article http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-11-11T020855Z_01_WRI062341_RTRUKOT_0_TEXT0.xml&related=true if you were cheeky enough to actually wear a dress in some areas of Muslim France you would be "asking for it"...yes to be raped.

Hopefully our own Lebanese areas aren’t going that way – or would you be sympathetic to those lads as well Bronwyn?

If such lads turn their talents to terrorism I'm becoming less convinced that attaching tracking tags to them is a bad thing.

To Mr Oligarch.

As a former member of the "disadvantaged class" and a former Housing Commission tennant from a block of 84 home units, I can tell you with absolute conviction that poverty and criminality is primarily a measure of low intelligence.

(waiting for laughter to subside.)

That does not mean that there are no smart people in the disadvantaged class. But these people are usually poor through misfortune and they are usually upwardly mobile. Nor does it mean that all people in the upper and middle classes are smart. Being born into priveleged households can be detrimental to the development of an intellect that can understand cause and effect. There are plenty of "upper class twits" about today, and they all seem to be pushing multiculturalism, republicanism, reconciliation and refugees.

Poor dumb people breed much faster than smart people. So trying to control poverty is always going to be a problem. (although education can make people smarter) But for the last thirty years, Australia has been busily importing poverty just to make things worse. When I was a kid there were 1 million people like myself living in poverty and after thirty years of rising prosperity there are now 3 million.

According the the Australian Institute of Criminology, crime is now costing Australia an incredible $32 billion dollars a year. That is $32 billion dollars siphoned off from our hospitals, schools, infrastructure and from scientific research. That ethnic criminal behaviour by half a dozen notorious ethnic groups is now almost out of control in Sydney, is a measure of how much the immigration of certain dumb, crime prone and welfare dependant ethnicities is costing this country.

It is ironic that those who complain the loudest about the lack of government funding for their pet causes are the ones most vocal in supporting an immigration program engineered to create financial catastrophe.

Redneck mentions crime costs us $32 billion a yr.This is $3,200.00 pa for every working person.Don't forget it is not just the cost of policing but the cost of insurance also.Crime has a downward spirralling effect.The more everyone else cheats,the more likely usually honest people have to cheat just to survive.If it not nipped in the bud we too,will have a French scenario.

Many in France are still in denial as are many our own social engineering do gooders.Our own Govt in NSW have ignored these problems,turned our police force into a whimpering simpering police service and hoped that by being weak and nice,the criminals would mend their ways.

The left will continue to defend the indefensible because simply they have been the root cause of many of these problems.Some of the lunatic left see terrorism as a way to overthrow the capitalist system through sheer anarchy.

France made one big mistake. It allowed in people who hate the West. Australia has done the same thing.

So, for those of you who feel more comfortable and safe blaming the French for Muslim rioting,remember: a version of the French experience is probably coming to a suburb near you.

Red Neck,

Thank you for giving a pratical example of what racism is:
Double standards at looking at exact incidents: aborigines, others are criminals, the rich drunk catholic school boys had a good intention and may have regretted what they did.

Now that I know what you stand for, I will ignore your postings.
Enjoy living with yourself,

Chris Shaw I think when you wrote ..."The world IS multicultural" you actually meant "The WEST IS multicultural"

I, perhaps like you, have lived (not holidayed) in East Asia, the Middle East and Europe and you should check your demographics rather than rely upon wishful thinking of cultural bliss overseas.

China, for example, still finds in policy terms that it is 97% Han Chinese. The Saudis or the Japanese - how diverse are their societies? Visit their streets and see what you really think. It is the West that invites formal multiculturalism, it is the rest not the west that doesn't and who have to deal everyday with reality ie diversity that won't go away.

Most non-Western countries have explosive combinations of ethnicities which are suppressed to keep states or at least the incumbent's grip on power intact. This is hardly the same as pursuing a successful multicultural social policy.

Many non-western countries are not multicultural and find it hard to tolerate different peoples. I recently heard a Chechen complain that the "UK and USA just want us to get along with the Serbs here but we hate them and want to kill them". Understandable hostility without question but whose is the preferred policy direction RIGHT NOW? We all must get along and get over our historical cultural grievances no matter how revolting or recent, or not?

In Thailand, Philippines, failed Eastern states not to mention the Sudan etc etc, vicious unrest comes from supremacist muslims. Theirs is not an issue of multiculturalism, for they would end any notions of that sort of thing if they succeed, but of dogma. Victory would almost mean the death of any form of multiculturalism there as we understand it - if it existed at all in the first place.

Finally, from my POV, Australia is poly-ethnic not multicultural - obviously there are people from non-Australian backgrounds like my very own dear naturalised NESB father, yet here we are today ...all Australian ... including him, including me and including you presumably. That's the way to go.

To plantagenet,

Firstly, I'd like to clear up your (feigned) confusion over my identity. I am not Bronwyn. In fact, I'm not even female. You really shouldn't assume so much.

Secondly, I'm not advocating multiculturalism. In fact, I've always considered the term to be a politically correct delusion. In every society there is a dominant culture and, although influenced and shaped by a variety of other cultures, some level of cultural homogeneity is needed for social stability. My grandparents were migrants and they integrated as opposed to forming a diaspora with other non-Anglos. Even if Australia is a "cultural black hole".

The French model has obviously failed as it allowed its North African migrants to form non-integrating, insular communities. Contrast this with Germany which is home to several million Turks. The German model doesn't tolerate the notion of multiculturalism to the same degree that France does. As a result, the eastern districts of Berlin aren't burning.

Now that I've cleared that up, I'd like to state that the point of my original post was to demonstrate that the socio-economic problems faced by this country exist regardless of immigration. Australia could have the 'White Australia' policy still in place, but the same social problems would exist. Social disillusionment in this nation goes beyond some angry Muslims.

Wromg, wrong, wrong, Mr Oligarch.

Immigration is a two edged sword. The Achilles Heel of Capitalism is endless growth, and immigration has certainly helped to sustain Australian economic growth. But it is obvious that some ethnic groups make good citizens and are a boon to the country while other ethnic groups are the exact opposite. Asians and Italians in particular are noted for their work ethic while people from other ethnic groups are noted for their high levels of welfare dependency and criminal behaviour. Welfare is now the biggest debit in the Federal Government budget which gobbles up an amazing $60 billion dollar per year, five times the defence budget.

Exactly the same levels of unemployment in France found for Muslims can be found in Sydney. Unemployment for Muslim men in France stands at 19.5%, double the French average. While one half of the inmates in French jails are Muslims, even though they only represent 7% of the population. But in Sydney, unemployment in the Islamic community in Auburn is 26.2%, in Canterbury 20.3%, in Liverpool 20.2% while in the Melbourne suburb of Moonee Valley it is 39.1%. (ABS statistics)

Exactly the same unemployment characteristics that have been blamed for the intifada in France is now being repeated in this country. The only difference is that Muslims are 7% of the French population while they are only (thankfully) 2% of the Australian population. At least for now. Muslims are noted for having large families and continued immigration will soon put white Australians on the endangered species list along with the Yellow Footed Rock Wallaby.

Immigration may continue to provide economic growth for Australia, but whether that endless growth is sustainable in even the short term is debatable. But one thing is certain. If immigration is to continue then the primary goal of that policy must be that it exists for the benefit of Australians, not immigrants

Redneck I think you'll find thet the welfare budget is much greater.You are quoting the Federal Govt welfare bill.The states and all our councils also contribute towards welfare.It is a lot more than 60 billion.

So we have the cost of Federal Welfare and crime at 92 billion or $9200 pa per working person.These are the main reasons reasons for our high tax regime.Is it any wonder that the ordinary worker feels like a slave to the system?

Sorry Oligarch the style, content and quality of your arguments were too similar to Bronwyn's.

Analysing this in terms of law enforcement realities rather than a sociology classroom. These guys who fire bomb in France (lets hope it does not happen in Australia) are thugs who adopt parts of a perfectly good religion (Islam) to justify "tribal" violence.

I use the term tribal in the sense of young bloods proving their manhood be kicking the s... out of somebody.

You may intellectualise about this phenomenom all you wish but the thugs would probably laugh at the justifications you supply.

Opportunities? In Australia? For non-Celtic-Anglo newcomers especially?

Local media is sober, perhaps

Redneck: I say it is ironic that those who complain the loudest about immigration, political correctness and multi-culturalism are the ones most vocal in supporting their right to culture of their own - even if it is a redneck one that espouses disdain for other cultures.
In your redneck mono-culture there will be political correctness will be mandatory, no freedom of speech unless it is aligned with the dominant and only culture.
Redneck a sign on a door in deep south USA reads: "If you aint redneck - you aint sheeit." That is your attitude through tis blogspot. So don't you be pelting stones at other cultures - your hypocrisy seems to know no bounds.

Your obsession with stirring up angst against multi-culturalism, and especially Muslims, is beyond normal behaviour. Get a grip sir.

There is no way in this God's earth I will ever be at one with your silly culture. I think if you want a self-evident truth then it is that democracy and multi-culturalism go hand in hand. One cannot exist without the other. Redneck, following your own cultural mores and anti-multiculturalism, you must want to destroy democracy.

Hard-done-by people burning cars is wrong - just as rednecks hanging African-Americans and identifying with such behaviour and hatred by using the term as a non-de-plume is dead set wrong. Those people in France are responding to a perceived injustice- you Redneck and other proud rednecks are responding to your own irrartional, self-confessed and proven racist hatred - not to mention over-entusiastic feelings of superiority. Be nice and kind.

Arjay, a bit off topic but you could up the welfare figure by a significant proportion of the money assessed by C$A plus the cost of running that organisation. I'm guessing that there are a bunch of other hidden "welfare" like structures in place that I'm not as aware of which push any estimate of total welfare cost way beyond any figures you will see in formal presentations.

Now onto the main topic.
It's kind of interesting to see how black and white this issue is seen by most posters. It's either the fault of those no good "M" immigrants or the fault of the nasty society - what about the view that both sides get stuff wrong and feed each others fears.

Insular groups living in a society dominated by another culture but seemingly rejecting that same society and the values of the dominant culture don't help themselves and breed concern and mistrust.

Biggots doing their bit to ensure that those immigrants never feel welcome or comfortable within the broader community also feed the need for those same immigrants to cling together and promote a mistrust of the broader society.

It cuts both ways. I have a right to expect that those moving to this country will obey our laws and respect my freedoms and I have a responsibility to make them feel welcome help their transition to this society.

Those who refuse to denounce ethnic violence are part of the problem, those who refuse to praise ethnic contributions are just as much part of the problem.

R0bert

Bronwyn, I thought your article was well thought out and very interesting. However, while I can partially understand the French being upset about the complaints regarding nuclear testing because it was being done in France (that part of the French Republic that is in the Pacific), I think that the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior was a different situation. The Rainbow Warrior was a foreign (British) registered ship in a foreign harbour (New Zealand) and French frogmen (sorry, couldn't resist that one) sank it and a man died. And yes, those Greenpeace protestors can be annoying, but that's not reason to kill them or sink the boat (especially when the boat was not in French waters). At first the French government denied everything, but after intense pressure (including by the media) the French Government admitted that agents of the French secret service had sunk the boat on orders. I think the media was right to criticise the French in that regard.

Great post R0bert. People need to start respecting and loving each other as people. The posters on this thread seem to be saying, "well they don't respect me and they will never respect me so I won't respect them". That's fairly circular and it will not lead to a positive result.

How boring you all are!

Read better this

http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/97175.php

- and reply there if here is politically incorrect as an author could much easiely be estimated...

yes you can take extreeme examples of australians rioting but usually it is muslims,arbs and blacks..

For example an extreme example of australians behavig badly, Maitland has higher sex attacks than southwestern sydney. could it be white on white rape is higher reported, where arabs and muslims are more likely to threaten to kill the victim.

http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

if you want to do something active

http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/contact/
contact the immigration minister. I did they usually reply with most muslims are good so we keep letting them in .

To Rancidus.

So you think that North European Protestant people, who’s culture is the model of success, have no right preserve their own culture? I find that an extraordinary concept. Could I remind you that the reason why my culture has advanced so much is because our people are the most self critical and tolerant in the world. But you are confusing valid introspection with some sort of never ending ritual of denigration that is promoted by a caste of people with whom the constant attacks of their own people, their nation, their culture and their allies is now nothing more than a fashionable sport.

Your claim that democracy goes hand in hand with multiculturalism is a sick joke. Countries torn apart by ethnic cultural separation are not noted for being stable democracies. Where in God’s name you got that particular idiotic notion from, is anybodies guess.

The Muslims in France have now risen up and France is now in the first stage of collapse. This has been predicted by rednecks for years and now that it has happened, all that you can do is try to deny the obvious. France can not survive as a democracy where a large and ever growing part of the population has a fundamental difference of opinion on what constitutes right and wrong behaviour. The next stage will be demands for ethnic separatism with Sharia Law and even more terrorism. The final stage will be outright civil war with race determining the sides. And race wars are always bad wars. Think of Paris as bullet riddled Beirut in the early 1980’s. It will happen. It is only a matter of time. Maybe another Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer) will unite the Gauls and drives the Muslims out of France again.

The Frogs had exactly the same stupid ideas about multiculturalism that you have, and they will be the first nation to come apart because of them. And when it happens, I am going to enjoy every minute of it.

Redneck: It is Eurocentric propagandist like you, your mob and certain sections of the media that are in part responsible for clashes between cultures. The rest of us get along fine with peoples of ethnic difference.

True Democracy and multiculturalism go hand and in hand. That is a real self-evident truth you fail to refute. The lack of democratic processes, true representative democracy, that has caused the troubles in the countries you mentioned. You have an uncanny ability to further my opinion while trying to further your own.

All you have done is froth at the mouth and rant and curse at it (the self-evident truth).

Your self-confessed enjoyment of others suffering is a sad indictment on your understanding of right and wrong and points to your and other like-minded people's true motives for posting.

You also refer to Australia as "my country" not "our country" which also points to a misunderstanding of just whose country you think this is and is plain self-centred. It is mine too and I will never be like you or adopt your culture which is foreign to this country - (thus it is a multi-cultural country). Perhaps you should consider immigrating to a mono-cultural country where everyone sits around salivating over others' suffering.

I also think that even if there was no religious differences, if you discovered your dream monoculture, it wouldn't be long before people like you would find something to whinge about - some other group to vilify.

I am white European/Moorish/Prussian/English/German/Italian bloodline (I am an extremely handsome blonde-blue eyed sweetie) and you are shaming the name of certain rednecks who have advanced in their thinking and attitudes - just as some Muslims have and will - be authentic Redneck and and change it a more suitable name like Klueless Klux Klan.

What is <a model of success>?

<<<So you think that North European Protestant people, who’s culture is the model of success, have no right preserve their own culture?>>>>

Raping and murdering millions of others to gain access to resources beneath their “terra nullius” and as a result, having mute servants till the Armageddon?

Some discussions really reflect factual participants’ lack of understanding of in-point historical events and a long-time picture as it present by higher math integral calculus the majority of "a first world educated" Australians might to the best just were hearing something of accidentally.

Regrettably, redneck is right in some aspects: democracy cannot be based on religious and biological differences as Australian multiculturalism is, which is rather a modern attempt to save usual Celtic-Anglo racism nurtured upon ages by and feeding in return up English classical feudals and their younger oncoming generations.

I've worked with the many different cultures that make up this land.
At best they distrust each other more often it's undiluted hate.
Multiculturalism working?

Multiculturalism is failing so it is hardly surprising that those most aghast at it’s demise would try to blame those who predicted it’s failure and were right all along.

Democracy began in culturally homogenous societies, and the efforts of these societies to export democracy to culturally divided societies has failed. Democracy can not work where different ethnic or tribal groups have a fundamental difference of opinion as to what constitutes right or wrong behaviour. That principle just happens to be as immutable as the law of gravity.

My self evident pleasure at watching the French, who’s attitudes most closely resemble your own, self destruct through their own stupidity I do not deny. France will become an object lesson for any democracy which wishes to either emulate miserable failure or rethink it’s immigration policies.

Interestingly, your implication that you reject North European culture and hold it in contempt is just a racist as me saying that I reject Muslim culture and hold it in contempt. Anti racists are in fact racists. It is just that they are too dim witted to even understand the implications of their own ideology. A perfect example of that is Rancidus’s above statement where he makes a very racist statement denigrating white Europeans but he is unable to comprehend the contradiction in his own thinking. It is clear that people like you and Rancidus hate white Protestants and our culture, yet you all want to live with us.

I call myself “redneck” because people like you have stereotyped me and labelled me with that name so many times, while simultaneously claiming that stereotyping and labelling are utterly wrong, that I must be one. But calling anybody a “redneck” is racist. But once again, people like you who claim to be absolutely non racist, can not see the contradiction. You are just as racist as I am, the only difference is that you hate white people and our successful culture

It is utterly clear that “melting pot” that is a US-style model of internationalism in conjunction with very slight religious inclinations if any at all works in land-grabbing built multi-national countries much better than “multiculturalism”, which is a motto of an oppressing majority in Australia.

Redneck. Your assertions are false.

I am European and I like the nice and kind aspects of Protestant culture.

You want to show me where and how I have stereotyped you – Redneck? You have stereotyped yourself. You clearly love the negatives of WASP culture and have a hatred for Muslim and those who refuse to stereotype, to demonise, all Muslims because of the actions of a few fanatics.

Show me where I have rejected and hate all Northern European culture. My comments sent some aspects of your stereotyping attitude back at you. You have trouble with irony don’t you?

Your argument of reverse racism is nonsensical. Certain aspects of redneck culture that I reject are culture bound. They have nothing to do with race. They are cultural and can be changed.

I do take your point re: the stereotyping of different cultures. It is a problem in discourse. You could help with the problem by considering some of your own supposed experiences re: stereotyping and discard the negative aspects of cultures whilst embracing the positives. It is wrong, for instance, to claim that the actions of a few terrorists is representative of all Christians/Muslims/rednecks.

I have argued before that there are aspects of various cultures that are superior to aspects of others. Behaviours such as kindness and niceness are superior to nastiness and malice.

Christian nations are terrorising innocent Iraqi folk just as certain Muslims are adopting negative behaviours towards others. I think there are many US Christians who are against the Coalition of the Killers and European Protestants who are all for multicuturalism. So you see that just because one disapproves of certain aspects of another's culture doesn't mean they hate all that culture. You Redneck, on the other hand, can't seem to grasp this simple fact.
You still haven’t presented a coherant argument to explain why democracy and multi-culturalism are not co-dependant.
Redneck you spend a lot of energy stirring up hated by trying to allocate negative behaviours of a minority to the majority. I think that there is a better way. (Cheerfulness).

When are people going to realise that there are fundamental differences in races?

We are all born with inherent bias that no amount of "conditioning" is going to alter.

Spoon feeding multiculturalism only blinds the weak and gullible. If you do not have pride in your own race then you do not have pride in yourself.

Why is it that Anglo Australians are made to feel inferior about being proud of our heritage?

Why is it assumed to be racist to embrace our white culture?

The rest (not the west) show disdain for what we have developed yet they are only too willing to take all this country has to offer.

I am extremely proud of my heritage and feel at ease when I mix with others of the same ilk.

I have been in situations where a person I used to work with in Sydney had his 8 year old daughter tell me to my face that she hates Australians. I have white Australian friends tell me they have been spat on by muslim women in Lakemba. I have seen the hate in minority groups towards us and for what? Because we gave them a home, free medical and opportunities.

Don’t tell me that multiculturalism works in this country or any other. It only works for capitalists who go by the old saying that “people are the best resource”, which is ok to say from the ivory towers but get down here at commoner level and see what is really happening.

The recipe for civil war has been delivered. The situation on street level is volatile and wont take much to ignite. Yet the powers that be will continue to pretend that we still live in the lucky country.

I fear for the future of this country.

Your fear is mush grounded, Alchemy.

<I have seen the hate in minority groups towards us and for what? Because we gave them a home, free medical and opportunities.>

OPPORTUNITY is the most important one to suppose.

There is NO opportunity in contemporary Australia but prostitution and trafficking drugs, and for those belonging to above mentioned minorities surely.