Hi David F.,

I would dearly love to agree with you:

" Ethnic nationalism is a consequence of the Romantic movement in Europe which based nations on a sense of history, a religion or a shared ethnicity. Jews participated in forming those nations. When they were formed there often was no room for Jews. So Jews developed their own ethnic nationalism called Zionism. It is time to get rid of all such notions of nationalism."

Perhaps there could be a sort of timetable, by which those who have never really been persecuted can abandon their nationalism first, and those who have been persecuted most can abandon theirs last :)

Perhaps, when the Saudis abandon their exclusionary nationalism, Israel can start to think about a long-term timetable, way in the future.

As far and I know, I'm not Jewish, but my grandmother worked for Lord Samuel as a teenager in Kent and London: his family was Orthodox, so I guess she did the caring work on the Sabbath. She ran off with a Hungarian Jewish maths teacher and lived happily with him for forty years. He wasn't very observant, he used to get drunk on Friday nights and play his guitar, and if he grabbed one of us little kids, he would shove his fist into the middle of our backs and twist: sort of agony and ecstasy combined. A great game. He and nanna were nudists and used to take us down to the Royal National Park where I learnt to appreciate the female form in all its glory.

He'd lost all of his family during the War except his mother (he'd brought her out here), his brother (fighting with Tito), and a cousin. As an alien, of course he was interned at Hay for part of the War.

I suppose if I had Muslim relations like that, I would think differently. But I hope I live long enough to say, like you, that " .... It is time to get rid of all such notions of nationalism."

So may you live to be 120, David,

Joe

' Dear Runner Israel is a made up country mainly by the People,scribes,priests,who ever wrote down the tribal myths, unfortunate but true'

the thing made up John is the fantasy in your mind.

Dear Loudmouth,

You wrote: "Perhaps, when the Saudis abandon their exclusionary nationalism, Israel can start to think about a long-term timetable, way in the future."

A common excuse for not doing the right thing is to point out that somebody is worse than you are.

Saudi Arabia has no freedom of religion, has great restriction of women, has recently executed a Shia cleric who preached non-violence and has financed terrorist activities. If any country excuses itself for not doing the right thing because it is not as bad as Saudi Arabia that lets almost all countries in the world off the hook.

Saudi Arabia, however, does not claim to be a democracy. Israel calls itself a Jewish democracy. I think that is a contradiction I don't think a state which exists in the name of part of its population and favours a particular religion can be a democracy. I don't think there can be Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim democracies either. however, a country callng itself a democracy has taken on itself the obligation to operate according to democratic standards and can be criticised for not meeting those standards.

Israel has many of the attributes of a democracy but cannot be one in my opinion as long as it is a Jewish state. IMHO a democracy must not differentiate among its citizens on the basis of ethnicity or religion.

US , Oz and Israel have the common factor of multi-country immigrants. In simpler days, people were British or Euro-Jewish and knew which land they were in. Flags were just for military and so on. Then the US had flags on almost anything and Abbott had 6 or 7 Oz flags when he spoke. Flags speak a thousand words and avoid logical thought.

Hi David F.,

So ....... all Israel has to do is NOT call itself a democracy and everything would be okay ? We wouldn't ever slag it again any more than the 'Left' does Saudi Arabia ?

What rights in Israel do Jews have that aren't available to Israeli Arabs or Christians ?

Do they have to pay a special tax for not being Jewish ?

Are their kids barred from schools ?

Are their students forced to go to 'their own' manifestly inferior schools and universities ?

Are there segregated beaches, or public transport, or public facilities, or cinemas ? Do they have to sit up the back ?

Do they have the vote, and can they stand for the Knesset ?

Do they have to serve in the armed forces for longer than Jews, but can never rise above a certain rank ?

In short, in what ways are Israeli Arabs or Christians penalised for not being Jewish ?

These are not rhetorical questions, by the way :)

No rush.

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Joe,

No special tax for not being Jewish.

The law of return specifies that Jews wherever they live can come to Israel and become citizens.

A non-Jew even if he or she was born or is a descendant of a person born in what is now Israel does not have that right under the law of return. There are other pathways to move to Israel and become citizens, but the law of return makes it much easier for Jews.

Non-Jews do not have to serve in the armed forces. At first glance that might seem like an advantage. However, the armed forces in Israel are a path to upward social mobility. Connections made in the armed forces give one an access to jobs and social contacts. Some non-Jews such as the Druse serve in the armed forces and are treated like everybody else in the forces. However, that option is not available for most non-Jews. Most Haridim (ultra-Orthodox Jews) do not have to serve. That may be changed.

A few Jewish and non-Jewish children go to school together, but for most Israelis there are in effect three school systems, secular Jewish, Haridi Jewish and Arab. The secular Jewish system is excellent. The Haridi Jewish system lacks an adequate education in secular subjects, and Haridim are generally not well-prepared for most sections of the economy. The Arab system is not adequately funded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Israel

"According to the Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education, the Israeli government spends an average of $192 per year on each Arab student and $1,100 per Jewish student. It also notes that drop-out rate for Israeli Arab citizens is twice as high as that of their Jewish counterparts (12 percent versus 6 percent). The same group also noted that in 2005 there was a 5,000-classroom shortage in the Arab sector."

The three systems have very different narratives, and the result is that secular Jews, Haridim and Israeli Arabs are at odds.

Israeli Arabs are in general better off than those Arabs outside but generally not as well off as the secular Jewish population.