What exactly is meant by a ‘fair go’ in this context. Is this just an attempt to tug at the heart strings of all dinkum Australians who pride themselves on giving everyone a ‘fair go’?

A ‘fair go’ is not a human value that is peculiar to Australians. Most people around the world value fairness and equality in dealing with others. If Muslims are being hard done by then they should appeal to the human quality of justice. They should ask all Australians to treat then with justice because it is the human thing to do. They should present their arguments reasonably and logically to those who are responsible for administering justice on behalf of the whole of society. If their arguments for justice stack up then they have a right as members of this society to see them carried through.

Appealing to the sentiment of a ‘fair go’ suggests that their arguments do not stack up and that they are trying to get what they want by manipulating that sentiment. They are trying to manipulate other Australians into giving them what they want rather than appealing to reason. Non-Muslims in Australia should not allow this to happen and should stand up to such manipulation. They should tell Muslims who claim injustice to go to through the justice system like every other citizen has to. They do not deserve special treatment. If they do not like how we resolve questions of injustice in this country then they are free to leave. Our justice system is our ‘fair go’ and it is not based on sentiment.

Muslims who resort to such tactics to get what they want are not rejected because they are Muslims but because they are dishonest in dealing with their fellow countrymen and seek to get what they want by placing themselves above the justice system. No one should be above the justice system.

Society has already been divided due to the very thought that had been instilled within the minds of people that politics is lineed with religion. People then tend to generalise religion and all its followers as a whole, because of something a single person has committed in the name of the religion. Muslims all around Australia deserve a fair go and should only be judged according to their personal character rather than their religion. This is what everyone needs to understand in order to reunite this divided society. Aqeel Ibrahim is definitely correct in my perspective and this message needs more circulation for everyone to read.
Lastly Islam means peace.

It is wonderful that some Muslims have formed organisations dedicated to peace.

The dilemma is how Muslims , followers of teachings of the Prophet who spread his message by war, can be dedicated to peace.
Islamists argue it is the duty of all Muslims to carry the faith forward by war, as did the Prophet.

The Koran specifically authorises the killing of adult male war prisoners who will not convert- straight translation , not "interpretation".

Islamists argue that, in cutting off the heads of helpless prisoners they were doing exactly what the Prophet did to adult male prisoners of a Jewish tribe he conquered (he then he sold the women and children into slavery). That is also a matter of history gleaned from straight translation of Arabic texts (hadiths)- not "interpretation".

Christ's teachings were be perverted by incorporation of the Old Testament and a ruling cabal of monarchs and Church leaders perverted the Christian faith to an instrument of the powerful to control the minds of the powerless, but reason has prevailed since the Enlightenment.

The Enlightenment began in England, in the first year of the reign of George 1, when a judge, instead of passing the death sentence, adjourned a case where a jury had found a woman guilty of witchcraft and successfully petitioned George 1 for a pardon.

That brought to an end, in England at least ,centuries of at least one example of shocking injustice. It was Pope Innocent V111 who issued the edict in 1484 that Exodus 20: 18 be enforced ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live").

Just as Christians have abandoned and disavowed whole sections of the Old Testament , if Muslims do not want to adhere to a belief system inconsistent with the progress of the human race, they must patently disavow whole segments of the principles contained in their texts. Just mumbling nonsense about "misinterpretation" is not enough.

Young naïve minds will be subject to manipulation by bloodthirsty psychopaths until peace lovers among the Muslim community take that fundamental need to let reason prevail

"Muslims all around Australia deserve a fair go and should only be judged according to their personal character rather than their religion."

It is fair enough to judge someone by his personal character in his religious belief that the supreme moral exemplar was a man who participated in armed robbery, mass murder, slavery, rape, and torture, and who preached that it's morally okay to kill people for disagreeing with his religious opinion.

It is absurd offensively dishonest nonsense to say that Islam means peace.

Deal with this:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

ISIS is carrying out the true word of Islam. All these 'moderate' Muslims need to wake up and stop identifying themselves with Islam if they wish to lead normal lives in Australia or anywhere else. Islam is the religion of violence and hate.

It's strange that although Muslims have chat forums ( which deter discussion about the churches) there seem to be none engaging in public forums about their faith. Not even an imam or mufti comes on to have a reasoned comment. Maybe reason is not a Koranic thing.

As long as you don't follow Mohammed or the Koran Aqueel you will ok. Some of the most peace loving in the world are Muslims. Usually they are uneducated and live simple lives like many Indonesians. When they learn to read and then obey the Koran there is then trouble and violence.

btw do you believe young girls should be circumcised or that homosexuals should be stoned or Sharia law?

All the surveys conducted of late reveal that somewhere between 15 and 25% of adult Muslims support violent action either offensively or in defence of Islam. The risk of terrorism and other violent crime is quite high, it's a real threat and hosting a Muslim minority is a burden on society.
There's no need to discuss theology at all, the question is whether there's any essential "human capital" that can only be found among Muslims.
The answer is no, there's nothing that we need from them which can't be obtained from others at significantly lower risk or in most cases risk free.
Muslims need us, we don't need them.

We don't need them?
Oz has joined attacks on Iraq , Afghanistan and maybe Syria, opposed Iran and Libya and took Timor off Indonesia and opposed it in the 1960s. Holland massacred Indonesians. Poms invaded Malaya and Indonesia and half the planet, including Melbourne.
51% of Australia is aggro.

When or if these mythical peace loving Muslims sit on their militant brethren, & control their aggression & terrorist tactics & ambitions. Then & only then will we believe there are any "GOOD" Muslims in the country, or the world for that matter.

Until that time, the only good Muslim, if such a thing does exist, is one in the middle east, & far far away from Oz.

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community? Where did they come from? Never heard of them before.
I have heard of violence, beheading, oppression and disgusting cruelty with islam. Also in Australia people with placards saying "Behead those who insult the Prophet", I have to say this is all totally unacceptable and we have to ensure immigration of muslims is forbidden, mosques are monitored and if they support terrorism then knock them down and disallow anymore being built.
Muslims have to realise that their beliefs are just not compatible with Australia.

//What exactly is meant by a ‘fair go’ in this context.//

Really? Poor fellow, my country.

If you need to ask a question like that you'll never understand the answer, but basically it means you treat every bloke as if he was your best mate. Especially on Hogswatch Eve. But this is a special time of year when you'll wish goodwill to complete strangers for no real reason except that it is late December, and everybody feels better for it.

For the rest of the year you're allowed to be more taciturn, but you should still treat everybody with the same courtesy and respect that the Good Samaritan showed.

Happy Hogswatch!

"If you need to ask a question like that you'll never understand the answer, but basically it means you treat every bloke as if he was your best mate."

So why are you bothering to give me one? How foolish is that!

Some comments are in "Getting Australian Muslims a 'Fair Go' "
http://cpds.apana.org.au/Teams/Articles/discouraging_extremism.htm#24_12_15

" The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is a perfect example as victim of this over generalisation." For heavens sake, every time we hear from someone in the islamic community they claim "victim" status and then demand a "fair go"? I, for one, am heartily sick of the bleating and taquiya from this section of our community. You are in Australia. You have a "fair go", just like every other person in the country, if you have the willingness to accept it.

It's good that Ahmadiyya has 3000 in Oz.
'..of 1.7 billion Muslims around the world? . Being in existence for over 125 years with followers in tens of millions located in over 200 countries, not a single member has ever participated in any act of violence, nor have any of their youth ever been radicalised. '
---
That's tens in 1,700 or 2-5%. It may be smart PR for the group to be promoted more as the first step. 95% still to go.

The "Fair Go" just means giving individuals the benefit of the doubt until they either prove themselves trustworthy or you find that you're incompatible and go your separate ways.
It's got nothing to do with tolerance, we shouldn't tolerate people, either accept or reject them, you only tolerate people whose negative traits slightly outweigh their positive traits.
The big problem is tolerance and the fact that it's used as an excuse for the importation of tens of thousands of heavily subsidised, low IQ migrants who due to robotics and automation were rendered obsolete as workers decades ago.
The solution to labour shortages and ageing populations is an engineering problem, the issues will be solved through technology, importing tens of thousands of useless, unemployable people is at best an act of criminal negligence, at worst attempted genocide.

Radical Islam that wants Sharia Law is being used by The New World Order forces in the West to divide and conquer us.

Putin was able to rout ISIS in a few weeks in Syria,a feat the West did not want to achieve. There is now plenty of evidence that Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel and the West finance these terrorist groups.

Comrade,
Your southfront.org says this:

Russian Warplanes Hit .. Syria, Massive ISIS Ground Offensive against SAA Forces

By South Front
Global Research, December 24, 2015

Jay of Melbourne, just wondering how you know the IQ's of all migrants?
Or are you merely surmising that they have low IQ's depending on their race or religion?

Arjay, what evidence are you talking about?
Or is this just part of another one of the many conspiracy theories in your world?

Suse, if you can't read German or afford a decent translation app too bad, for context John F Kennedy's IQ was about 120, mine is 110 and your average European soccer hooligan or builder's labourer scores about 100. 93 is a high score for Arabs, Africans and West Asians, it's more like 80, so you're talking about people who will struggle to learn a second language much less read and write and who would be unfit for even the most basic work, people who are too simple to be conscripted into ISIS or the Iraqi and Afghan armies.
http://www.zeit.de/2015/47/integration-fluechtlinge-schule-bildung-herausforderung
In an interview with Die Zeit newspaper, he said that his research had shown that most of the invaders have a “miserable” education, and that at least two-thirds of them cannot even read or write.

Describing them as “functionally illiterate,” Professor Wößmann said…“They can only solve the simplest of arithmetic problems. This means that these students, even if they have learned German, will barely be able to follow a school curriculum.”

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/wir-verteidigen-europas-werte-ingenieure-auf-realschulniveau_id_5016680.html

Immigrants tested at Chemnitz University in Germany have average IQs of around 93 and this is going to cause “cognitive errors” with enormous consequences for the rest of society, one of that country’s leading psychology professors has warned….

Professor Heiner Rindermann, chair of Educational and Developmental Psychology at the Technical University of Chemnitz, has penned a penetrating article in the Focus Online German news service where he has spelled out the importance of IQ, culture, achievement, and its relationship to race.

Titled “Secondary School Level Engineers,” the article states unequivocally that the mass importation of low IQ nonwhite immigrants is going to lead to the destruction of Germany.

“The standard of education of most immigrants from Western Asia and Africa is low, and their capabilities are limited. The consequences of this will be bitter,” Professor Rindermann wrote.

That is terrible news. Croatia has 92, Ireland and Greece 93.
...'while the United States occupied a low rank recording 98 which is below the international standard. The US shared the same rank as Spain, France and Germany while the average intelligence in Britain is 100 ranking before Russia who got 97.'

Nicknamenick,
http://iq-research.org/en/page/average-iq-by-country

That's average IQ, not median and IQ tests are very accurate predictors of intelligence, notice that most advanced countries are around 100, the poorest and most dysfunctional countries in the 70's and 80's.
There is no place in the "knowledge economy" for such people, they're simply going to kill others through violence, negligence and malpractice. For example, people talk about violent crime in South Africa as proof that low IQ populations will destroy any advanced society, but they don't talk about the road toll over there, or the corruption or the incompetence of the people put in positions of authority under Black empowerment programmes.
Australia doesn't collect any statistics whatsoever which indicate the ethnic background of the subjects, that's why people like Suse see themselves as standing on solid ground.
No news is good news to the "bleeding hearts" but the data coming from responsible authorities who do compile accurate statistics paints a bleak picture, there's no reason anyone should have confidence in immigration programmes which do not discriminate based on IQ and ethnic background.

Can anyone tell us what can be done in this
country to ensure that people of all religious
persuasions could live peacefully side by side?

Foxy, Australia is one of the most successful multicultural rural countries in the world, so we already know the way to get along.

As long as people abide by our rules and laws then it doesn't matter what religion (or no religion) people follow.
I would say we would have a more peaceful society if we could outlaw hate groups who spread their racist, false nationalist rubbish to the gullible low IQ rabble who follow them.

' Can anyone tell us what can be done in this
country to ensure that people of all religious
persuasions could live peacefully side by side?'

Hi Foxy I don't think it is possible. I wish it were and by and large until Islamic immigration increased it did work. Unfortunately non religious people are also among the most violent. At recent demonstrations the Socialist alliance have been shown to be the biggest bigots and most violent. The Getup group certainly have not helped matters by often brainwashing and pushing misinformation. I have a very genuine concern for my children and grandchildren.

The biggest mistake we assume is that everyone wants peace. I assure you they don't. The vast majority do while a growing number don't. Banning Islamic immigration would minimise what is only going to get uglier. Believe me I will be happy to be proved wrong. A leper does not change its spots.

Runner, can't you see that banning all Muslim immigration to Australia will only serve to upset Muslim countries even further, and also alienate the Muslim people who already live in Australia or were born here?

Here we have your good friend Babette on another thread getting upset about how Christians are persecuted in Muslim countries, and yet here you are suggesting we do something similar here in Australia to our Muslim residents.

How included and welcome will the current Muslim citizens of Australia feel if we say no more Muslims can come here because we think all Muslims are terrorists?
If they weren't radicalized before such a racist move was made, at least some of them sure as hell would be after that!

It is interesting to read the various opinions on this
forum and the judgements being made.

Islam is one of the world's major religions. It claims
the allegiance of approx. a fifth of the entire
human population. Yet I wonder how many of us really
know that much about it.

Over the past decades religious fervour has erupted in
the Islamic world in general and in the Middle East
in particular. To many Westerners Islam conjures up
images of women behind veils, adulterers being stoned, of
thieves having their hands cut off, of public floggings and
executions, of martyrdom in holy wars. Extremists and
terrorists simply add to this image and fear, distrust
begins to spread. The silence of the Muslim communities
doesn't help. Also the media doesn't help - the media
tends to print what's newsworthy.

What does the future hold? People need to feel safe.
All people. If we end up fighting with each other - then
the extremists win. Of course our laws have to be enforced.
That is a given. I certainly don't have the answers to this
complicated problem. However, I do feel that sweeping
generalisations should be kept to one side on all fronts.
We should at least try sticking to the facts - hard as they
may be to decipher.

Suse,
Prove that it's successful. I'd argue that such a statement is combination of myth and wishful thinking since no data exists to prove or disprove that particular Liberal talking point.

Foxy.
Ethnocentrism and inter ethnic class solidarity are the key, the new interpretation of multiculturalism will be based on negotiation not acommodation.
Peace is a two way street, so for our part Nationalists would stand down Australian forces from all overseas deployments and withdraw to observer status in the U.N. Immigration would be reduced to a around ten thousand a year and preference would be given to technical experts and scientists recruited from the most advanced economies of the world.
On the home front we'd remove all government support for religious groups including NGO's, interfaith initiatives and schools and make religious training a user pays arrangement, the Catholic education system and other large providers would be immediately expropriated by the state so if parents wanted a religious education for their kids they'd have to raise funds to maintain the school and pay fees, otherwise send their kids to secular mainstream schools.
The elite school system would be re worked to admit only the brightest kids regardless of their parents wealth with a quota for poor but high achieving kids who'd be awarded full government scholarships.

JoM
How much does median / mean affect the result? The % in blogs are expressed the same way. Iraq 87% Ireland 92%.

I certainly can't get my mind around this subject.

I've got to confess that I know so very little about
the Islamic religion. The behaviour of terrorists
and extremists within their midst - I find appalling.
I admit that what happened in Paris had a devastating
effect on me. I look to our leaders to provide safety
for the people of this country. Which as Suse pointed
out is what they are doing.

I realise there are problems within our major suburbs.
I worry about the brain-washing of youngsters who were
born here.

So many problems - and simply blaming religion for them to
me at least does not seem very satisfactory neither does
turning a blind eye - and saying all this will simply go away
as violence escalates.

It is a conundrum - one which we need to look at more closely
and try to find solutions to.

Susie

I have no doubt that many Muslims would be outraged if we prevented further Islamic immigration. I think in the long run it would result in less violence and terrorism here. Allowing Islamic immigration has caused massive division in European countries. Woman are raped by muslims at an incredible rate, police have no go zones in London and billions is spent on security. Here in Australia multiple plots have been prevented by Police.
btw you must know by now that Islam is not a race. I could not give a stuff about being labelled racist. My kids and grandkids are to precious to be a coward.

Alright then Runner, you have a problem with all the races who have people practicing the Muslim religion...and you lump them all in one terrorist basket.

That is called racism, whether you like it or not, and it is not an attractive trait in anyone.
Weren't Muslims 'created' by the same God you follow?

Foxy, I agree that the whole terrorism aspect of the current problems in Europe are certainly upsetting and unsettling to say the least.
I feel anger and disgust at the terrorists for what they are doing to our world, but I don't feel that way of ALL Muslims because I think that is an ignorant, bigoted, dangerous way of dealing with the situation.

I don't want our world to descend into a Third World War...

Dear Suse,

I don't think any one of us wants another war.

Therefore we do need to take precautions to
ensure that this does not happen. Education is
the key based on facts. We need to look at
what problems face us, their causes, and what
we can realistically do about them.

We have good leadership in this country.
We don't have corruption here that other countries
have to face. Hopefully our governments will come
up with the right solutions.

Foxy:

“I admit that what happened in Paris had a devastating
effect on me.”

How did this devastation manifest itself in your body? When people are devastated there are usually lots of physical reactions. They can’t sleep or eat, there is tension in their muscles, and they want to cry and scream or throw up. Did any of these things happen to you?

I say this because I think people need to be honest about their reactions to events like terror because exaggerating you response or mis-interpreting your response only serves to inflate the situation. If you are devastated by the death of total strangers then how will you feel when someone really close to you dies? Life would be unbearable if we genuinely had such physical responses to every sad event. Are you equally devastated by terrorist attacks in other parts of the world?

These so called ‘outpourings of grief’ that were displayed in regard to the Lindt cafe attack, for example, seem rather incongruous as well. Grief is something you feel when someone you love dies and not a total stranger. Either you feel grief when anyone dies in which case you would be emotionally exhausted or what is being called grief is not really grief at all but something else.

People need to analyse their reactions to see why they respond the way they do. You can say that you are deeply affected by certain particular terrorist attacks but you cannot avoid the question why some and not others.

Perhaps such events trigger reactions in us that really are far more personal and when many have a similar reaction it morphs into an ‘outpouring of grief.’

nicknamenick,
In statistics the median is the midpoint which separates the highest value from the lowest, the arithmetic mean is the average, the sum of all the results of a study divided by the number of results.
IQ in a population can be understood when plotted as a bell curve, the left side being the lowest score the right the highest, different populations will produce different results based on different variables, age, gender, ethnicity/race, economic status etc.
What I'm saying is that the testing done on African and West Asian migrants by European scientists suggests that due to their poor cognitive abilities the vast bulk of "refugees" will be a lifetime burden to social services and a danger to other citizens because of their mental incompetence.
For an example in the news today look at the footage of the brawl at an Ice Cream shop in Brighton Le Sands last night, low IQ Arabs running amok because they lack the cognitive abilities needed to resolve problems without violence.
It's not just violent crime and religious extremism which pose a danger to other citizens, things like unlicensed driving by people incapable of passing their test, incompetence/omission of action in the workplace, corruption and so forth.

' Alright then Runner, you have a problem with all the races who have people practicing the Muslim religion...and you lump them all in one terrorist basket'

again Susie your misrepresentation shows exactly why we have this problem now in Europe and Britian. Just try to think rationally just for once. I just happen to have friends from many nations where Islam is dominant. It is the ideology that is the problem. Just like you hate the ideology of what you term fundamentalist Christians (again usually totally misrepresented)I hate the ideology of blowing up innocent people (including kids) because they are infidels. I hold little hope for this country when views like yours are based largely on wilful ignorance.

Russia has ample evidence of ISIS oil tankers taking Syrian oil to Turkey. It is this oil which finances the ISIS terrorists. Turkey is a member of NATO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ens5MshcYdY

JoM
So please answer my q. What difference does "mean" vs. "median" make to your point ?
There are 5 IQ points between Iraq and Ireland. What evidence is there that a below-average Irish can't get a driver licence? Or that Iraqis are not the people driving cars on Iraqi roads? Who are they - Japanese maybe or Swedes?

Runner " I hate the ideology of blowing up innocent people (including kids) because they are infidels. I hold little hope for this country when views like yours are based largely on wilful ignorance."

Do you think that Muslim terrorists are the only ones who blow up innocent people, including children? Who is the ignorant one then?
I know exactly where you and other minority nationalistic righties are coming from, and it has nothing to do with the blowing up of innocent people, children or not.

Donald Trump says Turkey are funding ISIS via the theft of oil from Syria. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJqLAleEnKw#t=403
There is no way Turkey could have taken down the Russian MIG alone. This was a planned attack to bring on a major war with Russia.

The USA has 900 military bases around the planet and has on going wars in multiple countries. Who are the true aggressors ?

Arnav, are you really ok with using Donald Trump's mouth as a source of info?
I wouldn't trust that self-interested business man as far as I could throw him!

Do you really think anyone wants to start a war with Russia?
What could they possibly gain from that apart from massive loss of life, and quite probably a nuclear war that could destroy the planet?

Suseonline reckons that only a small minority of Islamists hate the West and engage in terrorism.

She wants to be nice to the rest of them. Problem is Suse, how can you make that distinction BEFORE the bombs go off and the AK-47s open up on a football crowd?

Prevention is better than cure: keep them all out. Nobody asked Australian voters and taxpayers to approve such an immigration program in the first place.

The naïve notion that "if we're nice to them, they'll be nice to us" is ludicrous. The Islamist plotters now being rooted out here in Australia on a regular basis by police and security services will NEVER like us. They despise us and will always do so. They loathe the very concept of personal, religious and social freedoms. The terrorist plots will not stop and will grow more frequent the more of them we allow in, even though, really, truly, THEY are the victims.

Haven't you been paying any attention to what has happened in the UK, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, the US, Indonesia, etc., etc., etc., Suse? Why would anything be different here? There have been more than 20,000 Islamist terrorist attacks since 9/11. See any sort of pattern there, Suse?

And by the way Suse, just for the record, tell us what you admire so much about Islamists. Would it be FGM and their treatment of women generally? Their treatment of gays? Their tolerance of other religions? The number of Nobel Prizes they've won? Their "peaceful" attitudes?

Get over yourself Suse. Too much moral posturing.

Suse,
You continue to misrepresent those that dislike the ideology and cultural practices of Islam as 'racist' because you think such accusations have impact. You lack logical argument for accepting Islam ideology into our society. You cry 'racism' because you have no counter argument.

Islam is not a race, you are quite wrong in implying such.

I strongly dislike Islam and race has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I certainly believe Australia would be far better off if we stopped any further muslim immigration and refugee intake.

Calwest you seem to know what the majority of Muslims think? Do you spend much time with ANY Muslims at all, like I do? I doubt it, and yet you are some expert apparently. Get over yourself Calwest and start thinking outside the scary square.

Banjo don't make me laugh. Of course I know that Islam is a religion, and as you know, I am not a fan of any religion or imaginary God at all. However, when people talk about Muslims, you know damn well that they are talking about Middle Eastern, Indonesian, Malaysian, Pakistani people and countries etc.

Lumping all these people together and suggesting they are all potential terrorists and we don't want immigration etc of these people in Australia IS racism, whether you want to dress it up as 'saving Australia from terrorism' or not.
I have seen your posts for a long time now Banjo and I know how you think. You are most definitely racist...

JoM,
You said, "All the surveys conducted of late reveal that somewhere between 15 and 25% of adult Muslims support violent action either offensively or in defence of Islam"

Can you give a link to or show one such survey please? I have been trying to find one as I have seen that quote before.

Yes, they do deserve a fair go, but in order to get such a fair go they should ditch their religion because its their religion that's the problem, not them.

They need to understand that this is Australia and as such has no place for any religion that harbors such hatred to other mankind.

Any immigrant who is invited here must respect our ways, otherwise they should not come.

Radical faith drives suicide bombers to wreak havoc in the far corners of the planet. Radical faith drives shooters to kill innocent people in a workplace around the corner. Radical preachers exacerbate differences of opinion about abortion, marriage, and end-of-life issues, setting communities against each other.

Fundamentalists of all stripes — Christian, Muslim, Jewish — have at least one thing in common: They think they are right, and everyone else is wrong. They restrict rather than enhance individual rights. And we know from history that such efforts can breed genocidal conflicts and wars.

As an atheist I believe that the problem goes deeper than radicalism. I take the position that the problem is…religion itself.

Which raises the question: Does true religious freedom encompass freedom from religion?

Quoting from an article found on the web:

"Overseas experience has shown the often
tragic consequences that occur when societies are
unable or unwilling to integrate newcomers,
especially in situations in which some minority
groups find themselves restricted by barriers
of prejudice or culture from enjoying the same
opportunities as the host society."

"Our institutions are now required to respond to the
needs of a culturally and linguistically diverse
society. As some experts have pointed out - it is
in the interests of all Australians that the 3 tiers of
government - Commonwealth, State, and Local intervene where
necessary to manage our diversity in the interests
of cultural tolerance, social justice
and economic efficiency and for that we need to plan."

My apologies -I've misplaced the article .I shall try to find it
and give it in a later post.

Suseonline "Arnav, are you really ok with using Donald Trump's mouth as a source of info?
I wouldn't trust that self-interested business man as far as I could throw him!"

Trump is a lot better than the fascist lying Clintons, George Bush, Dick Cheney and most of Congress bought by the Central Bankers. At least Trump does not want war with Russia and China.

Under the lie of 911 Bush brought in the Patriot Act and many other signing orders followed that destroyed the US Constitution. John Howard here brought in sedition laws whereby we can be charged without trial for terrorism

Suse, why don't you try dealing with the facts instead of posturing?

We have numerous facts to discuss: 20,000 Islamist terrorist attacks since 9/11; the hostile invasion of Europe in the past year (the latest of many over the centuries); the growing number of Islamist terrorist plots uncovered by Australian police and security services; the lack of marketable employment skills by many Muslims who arrive here with no recognised qualifications, criminal histories (such as Man Haran Monis), and social and cultural attitudes which are simply incompatible with any Western society - no, not every Islamist immigrant, but too many nevertheless.

It is well noted that you have failed to answer any of the issues raised in my previous post - such as telling us which Islamist cultural features you admire most: FGM (that's female genital mutilation, Suse, and it's happening here in Australia), stoning of women for adultery, beheading and mutilation of those convicted of what we would regard as fairly minor crimes, ensuring girls get little or no education, and so on. But feel free to make up your own list.

And when you've done that, tell us why any Australian should be exposed to the risks inherent in Islamic immigration, which, as we know only too well, has already resulted in a largely unassimilable sub-culture that largely depends on monies governments take from taxpayers and which nurtures extremists who have already attempted to kill Australians for the crime of being Australian.

Facts, Suse, facts. Much more interesting than your constant hand-wringing.

For those who don't get it ,Prof Michel Chossudovsky sums it up. http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-terrorism-and-the-global-economic-crisis-in-2015-ninety-nine-interrelated-concepts/5497812

48 While President Obama may uphold freedom of religion, the US inquisitorial social order has institutionalized patterns of discrimination, prejudice and xenophobia directed against Muslims.

49. Ethnic profiling applies to travel, the job market, access to education and social services and more generally to social status and mobility.

50. The wave of xenophobia directed against Muslims which has swept across Western Europe is tied into geopolitics. It is part of a military agenda. It consists in demonizing the enemy.

51. Muslim countries possess more than 60 percent of total oil reserves. In contrast, the United States of America has barely 2 percent of total oil reserves. Iraq has five times more oil than the United States.

52. A large share of the World’s oil lies in Muslim lands. The objective of the US led war is to steal and appropriate those oil reserves. And to achieve this objective, these countries are targeted: war, covert ops, economic destabilization, regime change.

You would think there would be some questioning of lunar green-left world views following the awful events in Paris, but no, they are destined to remain in the same rut.

Fox circles around and around but always ends up blaming the generous, accepting host nations. -For views and behaviour that are regarded as completely normal and expected by Islamists and by the 'moderates' who would see Jihadists as exemplars of the teaching of Islam. You can bet that so-called 'moderates' would not be showing a cold shoulder to the mother and family of a Jihardist, but treating them with respect and reverence, but why?

For Suseonline, it is all water off a duck's back as she endlessly regurgitates the immature, undergraduate activist bumpf from the Green Left rag. While Suseonline poses as a hand-wringing leftist and a radical feminist, the basis of her 'ideology' is her revulsion of feeling against 'White' Aussie men and Australia's inheritance from the UK, and against the RC church, but again, only the men. There is nothing humanitarian about that!

Suseonline supports the foolish belief and tactic of the radical feminists and green left activists alike, namely that the 'enemy of her enemy is always her friend'. Any sensible person would see that as ridiculous, cutting off her nose to spite her face.

Dear Banjo,

I believe the survey you're looking for was referred to
in an article by Paul Sheehan in The Age
newspaper "These Crimes have everything to do with
Islam." Look it up.

However, as far as moderate Muslims in this country are
concerned the following article explains their position:

http://fair.org.au/community/challenges-facing-Australian-muslims/

Banjo, you do go on.
Naturally I don't like any of the crimes you mentioned, and they are illegal here in Australia, so, like all criminals, anyone practicing them here will be punished.

What 'invasion' of Europe are you talking about? Do you mean the Syrian refugees flooding into Europe? I don't call that an invasion.
Aren't you being a little dramatic?
And aren't we a long way from Europe anyway?

Somewhat of a scaredy cat aren't you...

Forum etiquette tells us that we should
avoid personal attacks, and abuse.
We should respect other posters and if you
disagree with them - explain why.

Unfortunately not everyone is capable of
doing this on this forum as we can see.

There are some who keep harping on about the
same thing.

These are people who do not represent the
values most Australians share.

To most of us:

It doesn't matter where you come from,
being an Australian means wanting
to be "mates" with everyone. Harbouring no ill-will
towards others, wanting to live in peace and
harmony (with each other and nature) to be free and
independent, lending a helping hand when needed,
and treating everyone fairly.

Fox,

You and Suseonline remain in your ruts of years past and present and doubtless 2016 will be the same.

It is timely to point out that neither of you ever feel the need to counter -with facts and evidence- the opinions expressed by posters with different views to your own.

Honestly, how many times have other posters challenged your spin that it is the well-intentioned, generous people of host nations are responsible for the bad behaviour and crimes of Islamists? Yet here you bounce up again unabashed to say the same thing, as though you had never had your con-trick and spin dispelled before.

Of all of the disgraceful wobblies perpetrated by spin merchants and propagandists, blaming the victim/s and casting the offender/s as the victim instead would have to be the foulest trick in their arsenal.

Islamists do what they do wherever they are, irrespective of how well they are treated (which they only take as submission anyhow). Islam is a totalitarian ideology. It is very doubtful if it could ever be reformed in the lifetime of any here and is it even possible?

Federal governments have failed the Australian people by allowing leftists to put the diversity cart ahead of the safety and good of the Australian people. Immigration should be taking account of risks and providing robust risk treatments, not the 'open door' policy that you and the green left would have and did have under Rudd.

Why have the feds been giving preference to people who avowedly do not intend to assimilate at all and present high risks of introducing toxic political systems and traditions? It is a buyer's market and there are thousands of suitable people with skills that are in short supply. Yet some of them, many, are being knocked back to put 'diversity' first.

However this and more has all been put to you by many others before and you always duck and spin the same old spin. The very last thing that leftists want is to be held accountable for the negative consequences of their social meddling.

Suseonline, your silence is deafening. I guess that's because after you've told us all what a wonderfully tolerant, open minded person you are, you have nothing of value to say.

By the way, if the great majority of Islamists are just damn nice, moderate people, why has no imam or mufti issued a fatwah against Islamic State?

Surely a "moderate" imam or mufti would think beheadings, bombings, suicide missions, mass rapes, slavery, crucifixions, et al would be way over the top? Poor old Salman Rushdie got one for writing a bloody book.

otb,

A few facts for you:

I stated quite clearly earlier that the events
in Paris did have a devastating effect on me.

The same as I've stated many times on this
forum - my horror at the actions of extremists
and fundamentalists. I've also stated quite
clearly that everyone should live and abide by the laws
of this country.

Also, I did not blame the "host country" as you
accuse me of doing.

The quotes I gave in this
instance were given
by the Department of Social Services from an
article dealing with "Settlement, Multiculturalism, and a Better
Australia."

You are entitled to your opinions - and what you think of me
is something over which I have no control. However kindly
try sticking
to facts and not make inferences, assumptions, or baseless
claims about myself or Suse - people you do not know,
or are ever likely to know.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-terrorism-and-the-global-economic-crisis-in-2015-ninety-nine-interrelated-concepts/5497812The Globalization of War. America’s Long War against Humanity

1. The US has embarked on a military adventure, “a long war”, which threatens the future of humanity. US-NATO weapons of mass destruction are portrayed as instruments of peace.

2. Major military and covert intelligence operations are being undertaken simultaneously in the Middle East, Eastern Europe, sub-Saharan Africa, Central Asia and the Far East. The US military agenda combines both major theater operations as well as covert actions geared towards destabilizing sovereign states.

3. “[The] Five-year campaign plan [includes]… a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan.” General Wesley Clark in “Winning Modern Wars” (page 130)

4. In 2005, former Vice President Dick Cheney hinted, in no uncertain terms, that Iran was “right at the top of the list” of the “rogue enemies” of America, and that Israel would, so to speak, “be doing the bombing for us without being asked”, i.e without US military involvement and without us putting pressure on them “to do it”

9/11 and The Global War on Terrorism (GWOT)

5. The “war on terrorism” is a war of conquest. Globalization is the final march to the “New World Order”, dominated by Wall Street and the U.S. military-industrial complex.

//By the way, if the great majority of Islamists are just damn nice, moderate people, why has no imam or mufti issued a fatwah against Islamic State?//

They have. Why don't you try dealing with the facts instead of disseminating bullshyt propaganda?

http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.com/historic-islamic-edict-fatwa-on-joining-isis-isil/

Here is an excerpt from the fatwa:

"There is very clear guidance in the holy Qur’an and in the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) clearly guiding Muslims on how to handle anti-Islam and anti-Muslim aggression on the part of groups and governments. Under no circumstances Islam allows the following. The following actions are un-Islamic and completely forbidden.

Capturing opponents; Muslim OR non-Muslim civilians and beheading them.
Killing Muslims who disagree with beliefs and actions of ISIS/ISIL.
Destroying mosques.
Demolishing the graves of Prophets (peace upon them), Aulia Allah (Saints) and ordinary people.
Forcing out Muslims OR non-Muslims from their houses and making them refugees. There are now more than eight million refugees because of the atrocities of ISIS/ISIL.
Murdering Islamic scholars who oppose ISIS/ISIL.
Encouraging Muslim girls and facilitating their travel secretly to Syria and Iraq to fight for an organization like ISIS/ISIL.
Burning enemy soldiers alive.
Mutilating a human body alive or dead.
Throwing enemy combatants or civilians from a height to kill them."

....

continued

"ISIS/ISIL have committed all of the above violations in the most horrific and inhumane way. These actions are not allowed under any circumstances in Islam. Such actions are absolutely HARAAM (forbidden and major sin) in Islam and cannot be justified under any circumstances.

Nor can the struggle of ISIS/ISIL be considered “JIHAD”. The clear guidance of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) regarding armed struggle (war) is as follows.

During a war (Jihad), a Muslim army cannot do the following. These are the Jihad ethics of Islam that no one has the authority to change. These are also the Sharia laws about Jihad that no one can change.

Do not kill children, even if they belong to the enemy.
Do not kill noncombatant men or women, even if they are from the ranks of the enemy.
Do not kill elderly, sick or weak people, even if they are from the ranks of the enemy.
Do not cut trees.
Do not contaminate water.
Do not destroy the places of worship of any religion.
Do not force people against their will to convert to Islam."

Facts, calwest, facts. Much more interesting than your anti-Muslim propaganda.

Fox,

As you would know, the diplomatic homilies produced from time to time by public bureaucracies reflect the transient politics of the government at the day. They are masterful for what the spin doctors of the Sir Humphrey Applebys do not say. Not that the Australian federal public service is anywhere near as independent as the civil service of Sir Humphrey.

However since you quoted at length for the edification of OLO posters it was only reasonable to assume that you believed what you were spruiking, ie., that the bad behaviour, crimes such as rapes and multiple murders perpetuated by jihadists and other Islamic criminals are the fault of the host nations for allegedly failing to integrate them properly.

What absolute bollocks that the victim is responsible for the crime committed against him/her and the perpetrator is flipped to be the victim - made to do it by 'poor' integration, allegedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk#action=share

comments by an ex muslim woman who shows how ignorant the left are

Phanto: Is this just an attempt to tug at the heart strings of all dinkum Australians who pride themselves on giving everyone a ‘fair go’?

The problem is that Islam idea of a “Fair Go” is. Do it the Islamic way or else. Nothing less is acceptable.

Wagar: People then tend to generalise religion and all its followers as a whole, because of something a single person has committed in the name of the religion.

True especially when “all” the most noted Imams in Australia & overseas, including the President of Turkey saying, “There is no such thing as a Moderate Moslem there are only Moslems.”

Waqar: Lastly Islam means peace.

No, Islam means, Submission, not peace. It means peace if the person submits, if not, then it’s off with their heads.

Hasbeen: When or if these mythical peace loving Muslims sit on their militant brethren, & control their aggression & terrorist tactics & ambitions.

Oh, so true. Let’s hear more of these The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community speak up in the in the vocal condemnation of their violent breathern. I’d hate to be hanging by the proverbial waiting for that to happen.

JBowyer : we have to ensure immigration of muslims is forbidden, mosques are monitored and if they support terrorism then knock them down and disallow anymore being built. Muslims have to realise that their beliefs are just not compatible with Australian values.

Exactly.

Sparkyq: You are in Australia. You have a "fair go", just like every other person in the country, if you have the willingness to accept it.

Too right, mate.

Arjay: There is now plenty of evidence that Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel and the West finance these terrorist groups.

They openly admit supplying groups opposed to Assad & the ISIS. It’s not something I agree with either. In fact it's stupid. Political Correctness is why we keep losing to these Terrorists. Putin is winning without Political Correctness because he knows it as failed.

Aqeel Choudhry - Any relation to your near namesake in the UK.

SOL:Jay of Melbourne, just wondering how you know the IQ's of all migrants?

No, I'd say that it low according to https://iq-research.org/en/page/average-iq-by-country

Mine. 133
Australia. 98
USA. 98
Indoneasia. 87
Kuwait. 86
Afghanistan. 84
Saudi Arabia. 84
Pakistan. 84
Jordan. 84
Iran. 84
United Arab Republic. 84
Syria. 83
Libya. 83
Bahrain. 83
Lebanon. 82
Egypt. 81
Qatar. 78
Sudan. 71

Want any more proof SOL.

Foxy: We have lived Religiously peaceful since the arrival of Europeans in Australia. Now with the introduction of mass Islamite's that has changed. There is no living peacefully with Islam unless Australia submits to Islam. Even then, because of the different factions in Islam, that would still be impossible.

The answer is easy the application hard. The removal of all practising Moslems in Australia. That's the only way the Security watch will come back to Zero & the Fence can come down at the MCG. Who ever heard of such a thing in Australia 20 years ago before the mass influx of moslems.

SOL: I would say we would have a more peaceful society if we could outlaw hate groups who spread their racist, false nationalist rubbish to the gullible low IQ rabble who follow them.

I'll finish it for you Suze. "We should just give the Islamists what they want & all convert so they won't hurt anyone." Is that what you want to say? Oh, you poor delusional bubby. I feel so sorry for you. not.

SOL: Runner, can't you see that banning all Muslim immigration to Australia will only serve to upset Muslim countries even further, and also alienate the Muslim people who already live in Australia or were born here?

That is just the problem. Convert or we'll get upset & kill you. Why does Australia have to worry about what Moslem countries think of us. Australia is better & freer, that why they want to come here & make it like the place they left. in 50 years, thanks to people with your thinking, Welcome to Austyria.

SOL: If they weren't radicalized before such a racist move was made, at least some of them sure as hell would be after that!

Yep they're the ones just biding their time to cut your head off. They are radicalized now. They are just laying low as all good moderates are.

Foxy: Of course our laws have to be enforced. That is a given.

That's an extremist view, isn't it. Be like SOL, if you want to save your head submit & put the bag over your head.

Foxy: It is a conundrum - one which we need to look at more closely
and try to find solutions to.

See SOL solution. What happened in Paris, Britain, Spain, America, Bali & a myriad of other places in the last 20 years isn't some kind of wake up call Foxy I don't know what would be. Being personally involved in an incident by some lone Wolf 15 year old with a bomb in the MCG Public Stands screaming Allahua Ackbar do it for you?. No, probably not, probably just a poor brainwashed kid, eh. Ask him, "Kid... Kid. Have you been, rehabilated? (apologies to "Alice's Restaurant.")

SOL: Alright then Runner, you have a problem with all the races who have people practicing the Muslim religion...and you lump them all in one terrorist basket. That is called racism,

No it's not. It's call self perseveration. These people are Infedelaphobic to the extreme. We may be Islamophobic, but we don't run around blowing up Buildings, Trains, Nightclubs & Offices just because, "We don't like you." They do, & it's happening in Australia now when it wasn't happening 20 years ago, before the influx of moslems of any race. It would be happening more often if it wasn't for the efforts of the Security Services. I take it you don't like their efforts either SOL. It's taking away their freedom to kill people at will.

SOL: Lumping all these people together and suggesting they are all potential terrorists and we don't want immigration etc of these people in Australia IS racism,

It's not Racism. It's self perseveration.

SOL: You are most definitely racist...

If you have no argument pull the Racist card, that'll make 'em back off.

Foxy: "Overseas experience has shown the often tragic consequences that occur when societies are unable or unwilling to integrate newcomers, especially in situations in which some minority groups find themselves restricted by barriers of prejudice or culture from enjoying the same opportunities as the host society."

Is that like when the Refugees were given food & water & it was thrown onto the train tracks because it was provided by the Red Cross. The increase in Rapes by Refugees in Germany that the Authorities have been told to play down lest it upset the locals.

Foxy: My apologies -I've misplaced the article .I shall try to find it
and give it in a later post.

These articles are put out by Islam apologists, such as SOL, to try to garner support for the refugees.

Toni Lavis,

Thanks, I stand corrected. I accept your point that ONE Muslim authority has issued a fatwah. Well, sort of. It's against certain behaviours. It's not against ISIS as such, nor likely to deter anyone wishing to join ISIS. A thrashing with a wet lettuce leaf, in fact.

Thousands of other Islamist authorities have remained silent. None in Australia, right? Oh, please, give us a list.

And you're going to tell us that everything that ISIS does is OK and that the silence of the "moderate" Muslims is OK too?

And too bad ISIS is ignoring it, anyway.

So what's your next suggestion? Another useless, pissweak fatwah? Or when may we expect serious reprisals from "moderate" Muslims against the likes of ISIL?

Fact is, the Green Left in this country and their confreres in other countries are beneath contempt. The Green Left is the parasite eating our nation from within.

Suse,
You said, "However, when people talk about Muslims, you know damn well that they are talking about Middle Eastern, Indonesian, Malaysian, Pakistani people and countries etc".

Suse you neglect to add the Anglo US, Anglo Brits, Anglo Kiwis. Anglo Europeans and Anglo Aussies who happen to be Muslims that are included when I refer to 'Muslims'.

I am critical of the ideology and culture of Islam irrespective of the nationality or skin colour or other race defining features. I challenge you to find just one quote from me that could be consquewed as 'racist'. Criticism of religion, culture or personal conduct is not racism.

Suse you also said, "Lumping all these people together and suggesting they are all potential terrorists and we don't want immigration etc of these people in Australia IS racism, whether you want to dress it up as 'saving Australia from terrorism' or not.
I have seen your posts for a long time now Banjo and I know how you think. You are most definitely racist"..

I have never said or suggested all muslims are potential terrorists but I do consider a large percentage of muslims hold unacceptable views that prevent them from being part of our society.

So don't you think it is about time you presented some evidence on which you base your accusations of racism. I suggest you only think you know what I think and you make up what you assume. You should read my posts far more closely.

Foxy,
Thanks for the tip. I will try and see if I can find the article by Paul Sheehan. I generally do like his articles.

Suse,
What are you on about? I have not mentioned crimes or invasion of Europe. Certainly not on this thread. Please explain?

Onthebeach, you and Banjo remain in your ruts of years past and present and doubtless 2016 will be the same. Despite the continuing Government policies, of both 'left' and 'right' persuasion, of continuing multicultural immigration, you blokes continue to imagine that your racist views are in the majority?

If the general views of the majority of the electorate was to stop immigration and multiculturalism, more specifically Muslim immigration, then wouldn't all the mad nationalist and anti-immigration/whiteAustralia policy groups have done a lot better at the elections? They bombed badly didn't they?

Calwest, all day I had a burning desire to correspond with you, but alas, I was locked out until now because I had already written four posts in 24 hours on this thread.
Now that I am here, I have changed my mind. You can go on chatting to your likeminded redneck comrades instead...

JayB, you must feel humble in your own presence, what with your need to share with us all your IQ? Of course, no one on here can verify that claim, but you go for it.

Obviously, someone's high IQ doesn't preclude them from saying really ignorant comments, and obviously no one can know the IQ of everyone in a country, race or religion unless they were all tested, so your little list of IQ's isn't really truthful or helpful at all.

Aqueel Choudry's article says that the Ahmadiyya Muslim sect is a peaceful sect of Islam which rejects the violence and terrorism in the Koran. Well, if that is so, Aqeel, then I would say that if Australia wanted to import Muslims, then we should have chosen the Ahmadiyya over the mainstream Muslims. The Sunnis, Shiites and Wahabbis are now a problem in the entire western world. But because of the mindsets of people like Foxy and Susieonline, we did not discriminate between the different branches of Islam. We applied the usual socialist principle that all cultures, religions, and races were equal, and now we are in a real mess.

Now I looked up Ahmadiyya Islam in WIKI and it says your sect is persecuted by the mainstream Muslims as heretics. That wins a lot of kudos with me, Aqeel. If the mainstream Muslims don't like you, you and your people are probably OK.

The desire to live in a safe community is a cultural universal, Aqeel. And it is also a cultural universal to live amongst people that we feel safe with, people that we feel are our kith and kin. You are an Ahmidiya and you want to live in Marsden Park with you fellow Ahmidiyya. I am an Australian who wants to live in Australia with Australians. As a self identified Ahmadiyya, Aqeel, you want to do the best thing for your people. Australia is a nice place and you want every Ahmadiyya in the world to come to Australia. You want what is best for the Ahmadiyya.

But I am not an Ahmadiyya, Aqeel. I am Australian. I want what is best for my own people, who are Australians, not Ahmadiyyans. I am prepared to accept Ahmadiyyans as Australians, provided that I am convinced that their primary loyalty is to Australia, and not to Ahmaiyyans. Your opening paragraph gave me grounds to wonder about that. I have no reason to think that your people are any different from any other religious or cultural group who's attitudes, values and behaviours are generally diametrically opposed to my own people's.

//Thousands of other Islamist authorities have remained silent.//

I have no idea how many Islamic auhtorities have and have not condemned vagISIL in fatwah form or otherwise. Here is a website that may help:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fatwas+against+isis

Your claim was that no Islamic authorities had issued against fatwas against vagISL; now that I have shown that to be false the claim has been revised to 'not enough Islamic authorities have condemned ISIS'. I rather suspect that in your case, every single last Islamic authority who isn't in vagISIL could condemn vagISIL and it still wouldn't be enough for you. Presumably you want the Islamic authorities within vagISIL to condemn it as well. This seems unlikely.

//And you're going to tell us that everything that ISIS does is OK//

No, vagISIL are dicks. But that doesn't mean everybody who dislikes vagISIL is automatically not a dick. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend; sometimes he is a nasty little xenophobic creep - the dog crap on the shoe of humankind.

//and that the silence of the "moderate" Muslims is OK too?//

Had your hearing checked lately? I've heard plenty of condemnation of vagISIL from plenty of Muslims. Tell you I haven't heard any condemnation from? South America. Not a peep from any leader on the whole damn continent. Closest thing was the Pope, and he was wearing his Pope hat not his South American hat. Maybe it's time to start worrying about Brazil? Or maybe South Americans also dislike vagISIL but we just don't hear much about it over here, because who really cares what some Bolivian peasant thinks anyway?

....

continued

//And too bad ISIS is ignoring it, anyway.//

Well what did you expect? VagISL don't care about the silence or condemnation of other Muslims or anybody else: vagISIL only care about vagISIL, on account of being dicks.

//The Green Left is the parasite eating our nation from within.//

A bunch of lunatic hippies trying to get land rights for gay whales? They're not a threat to anybody. They're a source of much mirth and amusement most of the time, and a source of annoyance some of the time (no, hippies, I do not want to buy your crappy newspaper. And also, you're all idiots for opposing nuclear power and GM food. Why don't you piss off and shag a tree somewhere?)

Suse,

How do you react to the Qur'an telling the faithful that it is OK to beat their wives?

"Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

"Contemporary translations sometimes water down the word 'beat', but it is the same one used in verse 8:12 and clearly means 'to strike'."
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/003-wife-beating.htm

Suse,
Here you go,avoiding the issue under debate and introducing a straw man to take the debate in another direction.

The issue of muslim immigration is very much a topical subject in the circles I move in and the pubs and clubs I attend. These are working peoples establishments and the popular view is to stop muslim immigration and muslim refugee intake.

I reckon you know very well that the reason it is not debated federally is because Bob Hawke PM formed a conspiracy with the LNP and Labor (where are you Arjay?) They agreed not to debate immigration issues but simply allow the government of the day to decide unhinded. The ruse was that the issues were too complicated for us simple folk to understand. Both parties have kept that agreement so immigration is never an election issue.

So how about you take up my challenge and find a post where I have shown racist views. The only reason you cry racism is because you cannot argue on any other basis. I have lived with, worked with and socialized with many different peoples over the years and my viewpoint is formed from practical observation. Aus needs to stop muslim immigration.

Banjo, I don't think you are a stupid man, but I feel I will have to spell it out for you.

The definition of racism is a "...prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior." (Google).

You are saying we should refuse Muslims the right to emigrate to Australia. This means that the many different races and countries that have people who practice the Islam religion will be discriminated against because of the actions of a few terrorists, if we listen to good ol' boys like yourself. Racism.

A non-racist solution is already being done...we let anyone who fits our quota as a refugee, or someone with qualifications we need etc, as long as they don't have a criminal background, including terrorism. Simple really...and not racist.

Hi Suse,

Sorry, that's not racism: if Muslims can be of any 'race' whatever, and if - as Banjo keeps insisting - that his argument has to do with ideology, not race, then it is quite likely that you are confusing ideology with race, unnecessarily.

Christianity is not a 'race'. Buddhism is not a 'race'. Hinduism, even if practised mainly by Indians, is not a 'race' but an ideology, and should be critiqued as such.

Perhaps if you stuck to the line of argument - that Islam is to be critiqued as an ideology, and condemned in its more brutal forms, and that therefore we need to be wary of adherents to Islam - we might get somewhere.

Banjo's point, that Muslims need to be screened etc. because of the excesses of Islamist beliefs and principles, is an ideological stance. You and I may not agree with it, but that's the tree you should be barking up.

Cheers,

Joe

I don't agree Loudmouth.
If we were to go down that road then why weren't all Catholics screened from emigrating to Australia while the IRA terrorists were causing mayhem in Ireland and England? It wasn't all Catholics who were scrutinized at airports though, it was all the Irish people.
Isn't that the same thing?

Shall we ask Banjo if he is ok with black non-Muslim refugees from Africa, Indonesia, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan and Afganistan emigrating to Australia? I can assure you it wouldn't be ok with him.

People like Banjo, JOM and Calwest use the current Islamic terrorism problems to push their racist agendas. They want white people, preferably with a Christian European background to settle in Australia, if anyone, and even blind Freddie can see that.

Susie
You are to blind to see that Irish Catholics and Protestants come here to escape the crap they were in. Many Muslims bring the crap with them You fail to demonstrate the reasoning qualities of a primary school student. Your hatred seem to blind you from reasoning.

Hi Suse,

No, I think you are on the wrong track. And I don't recall all Catholics being screened during the troubles - apart from the fact that the unification of Ireland was not a particularly Catholic movement, I support unification for instance, and I'm not Catholic.

And as for your comment that Banjo would oppose ' black non-Muslim refugees from Africa, Indonesia, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan emigrating to Australia?' - how do you know ? Of coure, you have to maintain that, it fits in with your racism paradigm.

But on both counts, Suse - Irish unification being only Catholic, and Banjo opposing all non-white immigration - you really have painted yourself into your own corner: you have to maintain both positions in order to confine Banjo's argument to 'race', but if they both fail, then your whole approach fails as well. Sorry.

Ideology is the issue: should migrants be barred because they may support a particular religion or ideological version of it ? That may be Banjo's point, and that's what you have to argue against. It has nothing to do with race.

And, by the way, come to think of it, the Irish, as a 'race', are not particularly distinct from the English: DNA studies have shown they are almost indistinguishable. So even Irish unification had little or nothing to do with 'race'. And Catholics are not a 'race'.

Joe

Runner, hatred of what? You are the only one who spits venom at anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Loudmouth, I stand by my position that barring all Muslims from entering Australia simply because they are Muslim IS a racist response. If it wasn't, why all the outcry against those who publicly support the move ...eg Donald Trump?

I wouldn't call a religion an ideology either. It is the practice of worshipping an invisible God, as far as I am concerned. The IRA consisted of predominantly Catholics, regardless of why they killed predominantly Protestant people.
My point was that the Australian government didn't ban all Catholics emigrating to Australia because of the actions of a few killers in the IRA.
So why do you think they should do so with Muslims?

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

SOL: we let anyone who fits our quota as a refugee, or someone with qualifications we need etc, as long as they don't have a criminal background, including terrorism. Simple really...and not racist.

Well there you go Suze. You are prejudiced. What have you got against Criminals & Terrorist. What is a crime in one Country maybe not in Australia? Maybe some lady drove a car in Saudi Arabia & now she is a Criminal or dropped a Koran now he’s a Criminal or someone is fighting for democracy in their country with words is now a Terrorist. You are denying them entry?

I try to be as delicate as I can be. I guess you are one of those people who are never wrong & get upset & enter into abusive name calling if they can’t get their own way. “Your way or the Highway,” eh Suze. Mind you if the Gender roles were reversed then you would call us all Misogynist, Chauvinist Pigs.

SOL: People like Banjo, JOM and Calwest use the current Islamic terrorism problems to push their racist agendas.

Now I’m offended. You left me out. No, what we are trying to do is enlighten you & your Ilk to the dangers all the peoples of Islam pose to Australia’s Security.

SOL: My point was that the Australian government didn't ban all Catholics emigrating to Australia because of the actions of a few killers in the IRA. So why do you think they should do so with Muslims?

The difference is that the Irish are Christian & they chose to immigrate so they don’t get involved in blowing people up any more.

You can't say the same for moslems they seem to want to start blowing people un in their adopted Country because they won’t convert to Islam. & remember, as all the great learnerd moslem Imams & even the President of Turkey has said, "There are no Moderate moslems there are only moslems. To say one is a moderate moslem is an insult to Islam."

Suse,
Most of our visitors have now departed so I can spend some time replying to your assumptions, which your opinions are.

I accept the definition of racism that you give and the key word there is 'race'. Islam is not a race, it is an ideology. Criticism of a religion, ideology, culture or personal conduct is NOT racism.

Yes I believe that Australia should refuse immigration of persons that practice the Islamic ideology, on the basis that their beliefs prevent them from integrating with our society. Further, that as according to survey (Paul Sheehan smh) about 20%of muslims hold extreme views, that is far too high if we aim for a safe and cohesive society. You see these are cultural issues and nothing to do with race.

As I said before it is the Islamic culture that is of concern nothing to do with race. Muslims openly state their desire to introduce Sharia law, polygamy, under age marriage, law inequality for females and punishment for homosexuals and apostates. These issues and others make muslims unable to integrate as we reject all these.

You said, "Shall we ask Banjo if he is ok with black non-Muslim refugees from Africa, Indonesia, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan and Afganistan emigrating to Australia? I can assure you it wouldn't be ok with him".

Perfectly fine with me, any colour you like.

You assume incorrectly again. Time and time again I have stated that my concerns are with culture and nothing to do with race. So yes bring any person as refugee to Aus of any skin colour providing they are not muslim. We have a right to select on the basis of cultural compatability, Indeed it is a duty of politicians to select on this basis to ensure a cohesive society. That is not done now.

Now I wish to see your evidence of my alleged racism. Be honest Suse and admit you have no evidence after years of reading my posts

Suse,

How're you going with the Muslim wife beating?

//No, what we are trying to do is enlighten you & your Ilk to the dangers all the peoples of Islam pose to Australia’s Security.//

Beware the towelheads under the bed! Also, watch out for tigers. And bears. They can really mess you up.

//The difference is that the Irish are Christian//

Póg mo thóin.

The Irish are the Irish. If they want to be Christian it's up to them, but there are plenty of Irish atheists. Just for the record, they don't all drink Guinness either.

//they chose to immigrate so they don’t get involved in blowing people up any more.//

ROFLMAO

Just as it is not - and was not at the time - a requirement to drink Guinness and be Christian in order to be an Irishman, it wasn't a requirement that you had to be 'involved in blowing people up'. All you had to do to avoid that was not blow people up, an activity that comes naturally to most of us. I think that rather than immigrating out of fear of being the bombers (against their will, however that's supposed to work...), it is vastly more likely they were immigrating out of fear of being the bombed. Which makes a lot more sense. If I lived in fear of being bombed I might immigrate too, but I don't so I won't.

//You can't say the same for moslems they seem to want to start blowing people un in their adopted Country because they won’t convert to Islam.//

Well if that's true - and I do have my doubts about that - they're doing a crap job of it. Working to support yourself and family, paying taxes, obeying the law, sending your kids to school and generally just trying to get by the same way that everybody else does is no way to blow people up. How is that going to help? You might as well just pray for people to spontaneously combust.

To blow people up you need explosives and stuff. Working hard and obeying the law just won't cut it. Worst terrorists ever.

//Islam is not a race, it is an ideology. Criticism of a religion, ideology, culture or personal conduct is NOT racism.//

So when various anti-Semites over the centuries have persecuted the followers of Judaism - not a race, but an ideology - were they being racist?

Or were they just being dicks?

There is only one solution, and that is to ban the preaching's of Islam.

While so called peace loving Australian Muslims follow the preaching's of Islam, so too do the extremists albeit from a different angle, but the point is the extremists feed from the very religion these so called peace loving Muslims brought with them and more importantly the Muslim leaders are either powerless to stop the extremists, or they choose not to.

Shutting down all mosques is the first step.

The decision to allow Muslims to immigrate to Australia will go down in history as one of our worst, yet we continue to allow them in. It is truly unbelievable.

Toni.
Show us the data proving that the majority of Muslims in Australia are law abiding?
Show us the data proving that Muslims are hard working tax payers?

You can't because no such data exists, when sane, honest people aren't sure about something they're generally cautious, when demonstrable negative consequences like violent Jihad might arise from a programme cloaked in secrecy like Islamic immigration then reasonable people are pessimistic and unwilling to trust either the immigrants or the people promoting the programme.

The facts:
-There is a distinct possiblity that some Muslims will try to murder Australians in the name of their god, we know this from experience.
-Nothing is known about the way Muslims integrate into Australian society because no research into the subject has been conducted.
-The mass media is not a reliable source of information, pretty much every word printed on the subject of Islamic immigration by Fairfax, Newscorp, The Guardian, Crikey, the ABC and so forth is a lie or a distortion.
-Anecdotal evidence suggests that serious problems exist in every level and every aspect of Muslim-non Muslim relations in this country, in the absence of any concrete information one way or another this is reason for skepticism among rational people and requires that non Muslims take a cautious approach to their interactions with Muslims.

Toni if you're happy with blind faith and unquestioning loyalty to diversity dogma then it's no wonder that you strongly identify yourself with superstitious, uneducated and uncritical Muslims, Jews and Christians.

Hi Toni,

I'm intrigued by your suggestion:

"So when various anti-Semites over the centuries have persecuted the followers of Judaism - not a race, but an ideology - were they being racist?"

Pogroms in eastern Europe against Jewish people seemed to focus on their Jewishness per se, rather than their particular sect or ideology. They were killed for being Jews. When they were being killed, I suspect, any slogans shouted at them may have concentrated on 'Jesus-killer !' or 'Killer Jew!' or some such, rather than on the finer points of Hassidism and its baneful effects of Orthodox Christianity.

A bit like ISIS really in their treatment of Yazidis or Christians, don't you think ? Killing Yazidis for being Yazidis, Christians for being Christians ?

Joe

Banjo, JOM, JayB et al, dress up your calls for getting rid of mosques and Muslims from Australia anyway you like, but it is still racism. No doubt about it.
It seems the Australian government agrees, or these radical methods would have been tried.

Of course, according to several posters on this forum, there is some mad conspiracy to force politicians to give law-abiding Australian Muslims a fair go. It must be the greens, global warmists, feminists, leftists, communists, Marxists etc etc.
In fact it must be due to anything other than simple common sense and decency.

Yeah right guys, gather together with your pointy white hoods firmly in place and dream on...

Suse,

After all of the posts pointing out that you lack facts, evidence and rationality, you continue to do nothing but emote.

You invent "racism" where none exists and won't be swayed by logic.

You won't recognise what is happening in Europe as an "invasion", even though the Left wing president of the Czech Republic does (and probably the Hungarian president, and many others, I'd guess).

You want to redefine every issue to suit your pissweak arguments.

Look, it takes a minimum IQ to play. Apparently you're just not up to it.

Toni,

Jay of Melbourne's most recent post is pertinent.

There is plenty of evidence that rates of serious crime by Middle Eastern and African "refugees" are significantly elevated, compared to State averages.

And if you persist in trying to argue that "they're just like us", hardworking, employed, raising kids and doing all the things that most Australians do, that is manifestly wrong. Many never learn English. Few have employable qualifications. There is a disproportionate number on the disability benefit.

It's therefore difficult to see them as contributors to the national, state or local economies, particularly when you see a 20-something male of Middle Eastern appearance driving a Ferrari, as is common in Sydney's south-west, at least. It's far more likely they are working in the black economy and pay little if any tax and make little or no contribution to the mainstream economy.

Meanwhile, police and security services continue to uncover not one, but a series of terrorist plots.

I don't know any non-Islamists who are similarly engaged. Do you?

Suse,
You continue to believe that no one could object to Islam culture without being racist, no matter what evidence is presented. You cannot present counter argument, so you cry racism.

It is well documented that Bob Hawke PM brokered a deal with the LNP for the major parties not to debate immigration matters and leave it up to the government of the day. It is on official parliamentary papers. It is shameful that our parliament conspire not to debate certain topics that directly affect the safety and well being of citizens.

news year eve is 101 years on from when jihadist shot 4 innocent people in Broken Hill. How the regressives ignore, twist and pervert history while destroying this nation.

Suseonline, "They want white people, preferably with a Christian European background to settle in Australia, if anyone, and even blind Freddie can see that"

Suseonline the self-loathing leftist imagining her worst nightmare, those 'Whites' (sic) from the UK, and projecting her irrational prejudice onto others.

C'mon Ducks, what about the straight (whoops, that could set SOL off too!) dope on how your unrelenting mission against 'White' men and those poor long-suffering Brits got started and why? How did they do you wrong? Maybe those 'holy fathers' of your strict Irish Catholic upbringing still haunt you and have set you against all 'White' men?

Or were you always the vexatious, jealous type who gets a buzz out of being angry and finds moral BS a convenient cover and outlet for your rage against 'White' men? Giving others, particularly the men in their lives a damned good shellacking, is a time-wasting pastime enjoyed by some women.

General Comment
Of course the federal government should be discriminating where migrants are concerned. How else to manage the risks and consequences of unsuitable applicants - poor matches who will never assimilate and who along with the children they raise in their own image will be costly to the taxpayer.

It is outrageous that the older political parties and the Greens 'Protest' Party is one of them, have never sought a mandate from the Australian people for the huge numbers of migrants demanded by the 'big end' of town, or for the 'diversity-Australia-has-to-have'.

There is grass growing for those old parties who reckon they always know best and the 'punters'(sic) don't need to be consulted. Politicians are supposed to be serving the people, not the other way round.

Just to reiterate Suze;

As all the great learnerd moslem Imams & even the President of Turkey has said, "There are no Moderate moslems there are only moslems. To say one is a moderate moslem is an insult to Islam."

The Moderate ones are just waiting in the wings to act & if they don't act, they too will be killed, just like us Infidels. moslems are Infidelophobic.

Should that be with an "A" or an "O"?

In Sweden just as in Australia officially there's no problem with third world immigrants and their children, the reason no problem exists is because the governments don't collect any data relating to ethnic background.
In Germany and France there are officially huge problems because the governments there do collect and publish such data.
Suse and Toni can never get past the cognitive dissonance caused by the fact that the same official sources who are thought to be lying "racists" when they stop boatloads of Muslims on the high seas and intern them on islands are also their sole source for positive news about Muslim integration.

JayB,

Ever wondered why immigration, especially the refugee program is a forbidden topic and the re-settlement programme shrouded in secrecy?
Follow the money, 700 million to settle 12,000 Syrians, see the property developers, private education providers and NGO's circling like sharks on a whale carcass.

JoM,

That's $58,300 plus per migrant, just to get them here and support them. Then there'll no doubt be another budget allocation to continue supporting them.

Doesn't sound like good value, since we'll be supporting most of them for the rest of their lives.

Wonder how many destitute native-born farmers we could support for that sort of money? Those are farmers who paid taxes in the good years. Little chance of that from the new arrivals.

When I was in hospital the staff that I saw
were predominantly people of various ethnic
backgrounds. Asian nurses, nurses from India,
Sri Lanka, the Philipines, Poland.

Physio staff
from Serbia, Croatia, and Austria. The specialist
doctors were from Egypt. All did an excellent job
and were thoroughly professional. I did not think
to ask about their religious backgrounds.

Also, I happen to live in a quiet court in
a suburb of Melbourne
and my neighbours are made up of people of Chinese,
Italian, Macedonian, Sri-Lankan, and Lebanese
ancestry. We get on well with each other.

Our governments have already set Immigration quotas
in place. The Department of Social Services also
has policy programs in place to cater for settlement,
and integration into the broader community to ensure
cohesion in our society.

Perhaps some people's fears although understandable due
to what's happening overseas, in the case of this
country are baseless?

Perhaps we should take people as we find them and judge
them by their actions and behaviour and not on what we
read in a few newspapers or pay attention to what some
radio shock-jocks or would-be
politicians foolishly think will make them
popular or garner them votes.

How much do any of us really know about Islam and how most
Muslim Australians practice this religion?

I know very little - and would not presume to speak
on behalf of this minority in our country. After all
Muslims come from a variety of countries and they have
cultural and linguistic differences. We can't lump
them all together as one homogenous group. After all
we must allow for individual differences.

It seems to me that the known racists on this forum are protesting too loudly, and all the while patting each other vigorously on the back for being in agreeance with each other, and madly spewing out made up 'statistics' to prove their points.

It's sad really. One even gets nasty and questions my IQ because I don't agree with him.
As I have said before on this forum, if all these allegations re the WHOLE Muslim population of the world were as bad as these guys think, wouldn't our Government have 'banned' Muslim immigration and Mosques etc long ago? They haven't though have they? And that must really upset the racists in this country.

Foxy, you say things so calmly and surely :)
I agree with all of your reassuring post above. It makes me think I am not the only one fighting this silly battle!
In fact, I think I have said it all now, with absolutely no change of mind.
Cheers Foxy, happy new year ,
Side.

Damn that predictive text!
I meant to sign off as Suse above...
See you all on another thread.

Dear Suse,

Thank You for your kind words.

People tend to see things from a viewpoint
of subjectivity. An interpretation based on
personal values and experiences.

Of course everyone of us will be guilty of
some measure of bias. This problem becomes
particularly acute especially in discussions
whose subject matter involves issues of deep
human and moral concern.

How can this problem be resolved?

I'm no sage but I would suggest that we try to
see things from all sides. By that I'm not suggesting
that we should change our opinions, merely that
we listen to each other and try to share our
individual experiences. Keep the lines of communication
open. We just may achieve more.

Before I leave this discussion I would like
to wish each and everyone of you the following:

May you leave behind all anger,
pain, fear and sadness as the New Year
makes a fresh start and may you bring no tear
to an eye nor be caused to shed a tear in
the New Year.

All The Best.

Dearest Foxy,

I agree with you. I hope that in 2016, no poor breast-feeding woman is mutilated and killed in the street. I hope that no women are machine-gunned for being Yazidis. I hope that nobody is burned alive, or crucified, or beheaded. I hope that none of us has to shed another tear for innocent people brutally murdered for the sake of a brutal, fascist ideology. Or religion, if you prefer.

Yes, I hope that one day, we can all get along. But in the meantime, I hope with all my heart that the perpetrators of these crimes, men and women, can be stopped any which way. Any which way.

All the best for the New Year, dearest Foxy,

Love,

Joe

No,Suse,

I don't think your IQ is low because you don't agree with me. I think your IQ is low because you are manifestly incapable of dealing with facts, logic and rationality.

You are an idiot on the Stanford-Binet scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford%E2%80%93Binet_Intelligence_Scales

That, of course, doesn't make you a bad person. Just an idiot. OK, I'm exaggerating, but only a little.

suze, Malcom Turnbuls decision to go ahead with the 1200 refugee intake after the Paris attacks will hurt him badly in the next election, its just that its highly unlikely that labor will have a strong leader by then, otherwise he would pay dearly for that dumb decision.

You continually bang on about racism, continually calling any of us who dare point out facts as being racist.

The fact is there is a line between racism and realism and its a line that you simply will not accept.

The Chinese, Italians and Greeks were great immigrants to our country and in fact helped develop our great nation into what it is, however the huge difference between them and Muslims is that they came here to start a better life for themselves and many of these families today are the richest ones.

(in general terms)The Muslims on the other hand came here to bludge off our system as many of them have not lifted a finger since arriving and now have generations of bludgers all provided for by us. Furthermore, they came here in an attempt to recreate what they left, a new country for them, one they could feed off and manipulate to their liking. In what can only be regarded as 'stupidity' our goverments have not only allowed this to happen, but supported it with the likes of allowing mosques, secrete hiding places where attacks have been planned.

The incredibly stupid part is that still today our goverments are supporting more of the same with their reactive approach to terrorism.

We are merely treating the symptom and ignoring the cause, as usual.

Suse,

How are you getting on with your research into Muslim wife beating?

Here's a bit of help:
"From the Hadith:

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged him to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires."

Not just 'black and blue' but'green', from your nursing experience what does that indicate?

Dear Is Mise,

Domestic violence is a serious problem and is
not confined to just one particular group
of people. We need to focus on cleaning up
this problem before we finger-point at any
one else. Start with our own back yard.
I'm sure that the "Australian of the Year "-
would agree.

too right foxy, we do need to focus on the CAUSES of domestic violence because until we identify the actual causes, we, the aussie tax payers are simply pouring wasted money into an unknown problem.

As I have said many times, you take away the indigenous, the druggies, the man hating X's who use their children as pawns in a sick game of get square, along with those who's beliefs allow men to disrespect women, who's left?

As for Australian of the year, was this a case of get square that went horribly wrong?

While I don't condone any form of violence, in order to get the most value out of the dwindling tax payer dollar, the best angle is to first identify where the problems are. Until then, we are simply wasting money we don't have.

rehctub

dv will only get worse simply because as you point out identifying the main causes are never allowed to be investigated outside of the certain parameters set by the pc police. The fact that muslims and Indigeneous beat up their wives at extensively higher rates than the mainstream counts for nothing in the regressives narratives. It does not further the cause of privileged middle class white women to face facts.

The dupes of the 'Progressives' aka Fabians aka International Socialists remain reliable 'useful idiots' into their dotage and despite the obvious negative consequences of socialist policies, simply because the mantras appeal to their deep prejudices.

The self-loathing leftists irrationally hate many things, 'Whites', Christians and Australia's cultural inheritance from the UK for instance. These are useful idiots who have never developed and have never achieved self-mastery. They are NOT 'do-gooders', far from it! As the years roll by, they remain in their ruts ruled by their hatreds. 2016 will be no different.

UK Labour, but it could easily be Oz Labor that is being described,

<Paying the price for a decade of deception

So there was indeed a Labour conspiracy to change the nature of our society by mass immigration.

New evidence confirms claims made by a Labour political adviser last October which he subsequently tried to recant.

In an article for the Evening Standard, Andrew Neather revealed that ‘it didn’t just happen: the deliberate policy of ministers from late 2000 until at least February last year ...was to open up the UK to mass migration’.

Today's Britain is multicultural..

It seems there was a project led by Downing Street political advisers to introduce a secret policy of mass immigration.
Their economic arguments surfaced in an obscure research document but the social objective of greatly increased diversity was entirely suppressed for fear of public reaction – especially from the white working class.

These are the very people who are now paying the price for a decade of Labour deception. >
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249797/Labour-threw-open-doors-mass-migration-secret-plot-make-multicultural-UK.html

Foxy,

Of course domestic violence is not confined to any one group but which other significant group, other than Muslims, has wife beating enshrined in their religion and approved by their founder?

Dear Is Mise,

The Bible clearly states that a man has the authority to
discipline his wife (GEN 3:16).

The religious "Holy books" should be looked at in
context to the times in which they were written.

Naomi Graetz tells us that wife-beating is found in
all cultures, because women's status is usually lower
then men's and wives are expected to perform specific
tasks to serve their husbands.

http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/wifebeating-in-jewish-tradition

Dear Foxy,

And Genesis was written, what ? 2,500 years ago ? And what proportion of Jewish men, do you think, follow that 2,500-year-old verse to the letter ? Or is it one of the verses that, as you say, may be relevant to their times, but not now, which very few Jewish men would even think of applying ?

Yes, I suppose DV occurs in all sections of society, but to mis-quote George Orwell, the equality of incidences of DV in some section is more 'equal' than others. Perhaps there are men in Mosman or Toorak or Springfield who beat the daylights out of their partners, BUT I would suggest that DV may occur more frequently, more habitually, in remote Aboriginal settlements: perhaps 90 % of women there may have to put up with such treatment, since after all, the men rule. And why do they commit DV ? Because they can.

Do current Jewish injunctions advise that DV is permitted ? Do current Islamic injunctions similarly advise that DV is permitted, as long as the marks are not visible ? What may be the comparative rates of DV in those populations ?

DV may be permitted according to some perverted body of religious injunctions, but it absolutely should not be permitted, certainly not on those grounds, in Australia.

Love,

Joe

Come on Foxy

To the woman He said,

“I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth,and in pain you will bring forth children;your desire will be for your husband,and he will rule over you Gen 3:16

How about quoting the new testament in context

'Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, Eph 5:25'

I thought you were trying to represent accurately rather misquote to suite your narrative

//I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth,and in pain you will bring forth children;//

Because you ate a bit of fruit you were told not to eat.

Since the first people walked on this Earth, God has punished women with agonising pain and frequently death because one woman aeons ago ate a bit of fruit she was told not to eat.

Talk about violent and controlling behaviour. If a man beat his wife to death because she ate the orange he'd been saving for his lunch tomorrow, we'd all be shocked and outraged. But when god makes a woman haemorrhage to death after a painful labour because her many-times-great-grandmother ate an orange which he'd declared off-limits, he's somehow a good guy?

Christian ethics. Go figure.

Hi Toni,

That's 'culture' for you: the sanctioning of power structures, which historically have been controlled by men.

Hence so many cautionary stories, folk tales, legends, fairy tales, etc. which caution women to behave themselves, obey the rules, stay home, don't talk to strangers, etc.

As for Eve and Adam, Zygmunt Bauman has a wonderful article somewhere in which he compares the human response of Adam and Eve to being dictated to, with the commandments handed down to Moses, and comes down on Eve and Adam's side - in 'Theory, Culture and Society,' 1998, in which he compares 'morality as the necessity to make choices and assume responsibility and morality as conformity to a rule set by a supreme power.' I suppose 'free will', and its obligations to make choices, versus 'obedience' and not having to choose: individuality versus mass conformity. Brilliant writer.

In these senses, culture is so often the enemy of women's rights, particularly in backward and conservative societies. Probably some genuine feminist - if any exist - has studied this, and related it to DV in contemporary societies. Christ, I hope so.

Joe

Yeah Toni and you show what a grateful creature you are despite the free gift of life you have been given.

What I quoted regarding wife-beating I
obtained from the web and I did cite
an appropriate link, one of many that
anyone can Google for themselves. There
are many more given examples that can also
be looked up - regarding this subject.
It is not "my narrative." Do your own
research before finger-pointing and blaming
either myself or only one religious group.

I would also like to respond to an earlier post
blaming the Labor government and Progressives,
Fabians, Socialists, et cetera, We all are aware
that Australia today is a vastly different place from
the British Isles in which our institutions
originated. Just as Britain is having to adapt
to its changing population, so our institutions
are now required to respond to the needs of a
culturally and linguistically diverse society.

The Department of Social Services makes it quite
clear that this doesn't mean we should dismantle
or repudiate our institutions in order to start
afresh. It tells us that we should make our
institutional heritage work better for us by
enhancing its capacity to respond flexibly to the
needs of an ethically mixed population.

The Department confirms that we need a positive policy
response. Inaction can only exacerbate the problem.
We currently have a positive policy approach. The government
is doing a good job.

It knows from experience that it should seek social cohesion.

See you all on another discussion.
I have nothing further to add on this subject and I don't
see the point of harping on about the same thing or
harking back to previous arguments. It is rarely
productive and you always end up going around in circles.

To get back to topic, I would suggest that, like adherents to other religions, the great majority of Muslims are comfortably casual about their beliefs, that like adherents to other religions, a minority of believers are very devout, studying the Koran and strictly observing all of the necessary requirements every day.

I'm confident that the great majority of Muslims in Australia are as appalled by the brutalities carried out in their name, as other Australians.

And I'm sure that most of us on OLO wish them well in their difficult struggle to distance themselves from those who claim to be acting according to such hateful interpretations of the strictures of Islam.

Joe

All of which, Foxy, is immaterial; what is material is that we have within our society a religio/political system which believes and preaches that it is a duty to chastise wives if it is considered necessary by the husband (the plural 'wives' is intentional).
Such action is against Australian law; this is in the here and now, one only has to look at the status of women in Israel to see how far the modern Jews have moved from the teachings of the Old Testament on this.

Dear Is Mise,

You were the one who brought up the topic and made
the statement about Muslims. I merely responded
to your claim. As for who practices what today?
Do your research. I've done mine.

//And I'm sure that most of us on OLO wish them well in their difficult struggle to distance themselves from those who claim to be acting according to such hateful interpretations of the strictures of Islam.//

I wish I could be as confident as you about that, Joe. But I actually suspect that most of the people around here would condemn them just as readily as the extremists. It's not uncommon to see posts calling for the immediate closure of all mosques, a complete ban on all Muslim immigration (what about tourism, guys? Surely you don't want the dreaded towelheads here on holiday?), a ban on halal foods (not sure how that would work. You'd have to ban vegetables.), and even more far-fetched and xenophobic proposals. All premised on the paranoid delusion that all Muslims are basically sleeper agents for vagISIL and their ilk. Which sounds ridiculous to most people, but there's always a few nutters who take this sort of stuff seriously. And most of them seem to hang out around here.

Race, Evolution and Intelligence Dr Linda Gottfredson and Stefan Molyneux
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZPsXYo7gpc
There's a stark difference between the scientific study of intelligence and the pseudo scientific view promoted by the faculties of arts and the media.

I've always considered Intelligence only as good as the environment one is within. If I took a Stockbroker from Wall St. & dumped him in the Southern Saharan Plains, for all his intelligence, would he survive a month. I doubt it & Vici Versa with a Southern Saharan native in Wall St.

The normal Intelligence Tests, given to us in the West, only show how well one is adapted to the Modern World. I suppose that's where most Middle Eastern Peoples have problems when they end up in a modern West World.

Hi Toni,

There is a total fire ban in SA today, so I'll have to store your straw men for a cooler time. Perhaps by March.

Halal: if Muslims don't wish to touch food which may be, as they see it, contaminated, that's fine with me. But as for halal certification on all products, for all of us, i.e. that we all pay a bit extra for something which we don't care about, one way or the other - no, I object to that. There are plenty of halal butchers around; abattoirs don't need to employ religious specialists and add-on the costs for all of us. Apart from the brutality involved, that animals MUST be fully conscious and facing Mecca when they are being killed. No, I don't have to put up with such extortion.

As for posters: they come in all flavours, and most of them are properly ignored anyway. Save the Whales ! Yeah, okay. Land rights now ! Yeah, tick. Recognise homosexual relationships as marriages NOW ! Well, maybe not. And I actually haven't seen any posters "calling for the immediate closure of all mosques, a complete ban on all Muslim immigration" etc. but then, I live a very sheltered life, with only Cracklin' Rosie to keep me happy.

But we do live in a relatively open society, in which people have the right to express their opinions. And lo ! OLO ! After all, some of the most thoughtful people in Australia are on OLO, and even some who have obviously been dropped on their heads, such as myself.

Speaking of which, vegetables: I was unaware that vegetables go through some paid-for halal-certification process. Is that really so ? Are we paying more for vegetables because of halal certification ? Was my lettuce turned towards Mecca when it was being slowly cut ? So onions, which are pulled out, and stone-fruit and grapes which are picked, are not actually halal ? But are we paying for them too ?

What, I pay an unnecessary surcharge for my Cracklin' Rosie ?! Outrageous !

Happy New Year!

Joe

sounds like the salvation army are at it again. Belgium has cancelled their New Years Eve celebrations

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/belgium-cancels-new-years-eve-celebrations-over-terror-fears/news-story/6ff1c2eaf1dbd3993c2986e0ece8f030

how ironic that the head office of the UN reside there.

Jayb,
Well you'd be wrong, the scientist in that video explains that environmental factors cease to be important after puberty and you're sitting right in the middle of a society which disproves your other point.
The video is important because Dr Linda Gottfredson carefully explains the difference between the actual scientific, psychological and medical consensus on intelligence and the pseudo sciences of sociology and anthropology.
Modern multicultural societies are becoming stratified based on levels of intelligence and the higher IQ people literally have no idea what low IQ people are like, how participaiton in the "knowledge economy" is impossible for the majority of people.
For example, when I did the public service test years ago my IQ was about 110, I'm a lot smarter than most people working on building sites but I'm not smart enough to complete a university Arts degree, I tried and I couldn't do the work.
I would probably struggle with the courses required to become a registered builder so even though I'm considered above average intelligence and most of the people I work with are drastically less intelligent than that I've never been able to cope with more than leading hand type duties or my current, non demanding roles as a sub contractor.
I know what it's like to deal with people who have below average IQ, in the 80's and 90's, I've worked with guys who are unable to complete a task on Tuesday by following instructions given on Monday and I know people who for reason of low cognitive ability are unable to improve themselves at all, they just can't do it because they have such a limited understanding of the world around them.

Toni,

By definition a Muslim takes the qur'an seriously; I have Muslim friends who sold their home in Bankstown (at a profit) and moved to another part of Sydney, for their children's sake, where Muslim influence is not at all strong (as it is in Bankstown).
They freely admit that they have little choice than to follow the lead of extremist Muslims, for to oppose them would mean ostracism and, if push came to shove, mutilation or death.
They saw it in their former country and came here to get away from it, but uncertainty and terror followed them.
Sure there are moderate Muslims, or rather Muslims who would prefer to be moderate or even mild, but there are religious strictures in place that will stop them.

JOM: Jayb, Well you'd be wrong, the scientist in that video explains that environmental factors cease to be important after puberty and you're sitting right in the middle of a society which disproves your other point.

I Was using extreme examples. Yes, there is a lot of in-between.

Have a Happy New Year everyone, all the best for the coming year.

We'll be back next year with our differing opinions, agreements & ideas. The best of all is that we can have that freedom.

Luv ya all.

Usually it is a few bad apples make it hard for the majority. Unfortunately as silence is accent and it is truly deafening; it is a few good apples making it easy for the majority.

Gee Is Mise, your 'Muslim friends' but be very good friends indeed to admit to you that they have no choice but to follow Muslim extremists! Surely you should report them to the relevant authorities if that is the case?

I know several Muslim families, and none have ever said anything like that to me or our other friends. They just seem to live the same sort of lives as anyone else I know, except they go to the Mosque on Fridays to pray, and also lay down their prayer mats to pray at home during the day.

Certainly they are as upset about any terrorist atrocities as anyone else, and often say how thankful they are living here, as opposed to any of the war-torn countries of the world. They are just human beings living their lives peacefully, as I am.

Is mis, and there in lies the problem, these Muslims, who came here supposedly for a better life, brought their baggage with them. If they wanted a better life, surely common sense would have suggested they leave behind what caused them to leave their homeland in the first place. Islam.

Now if common sense didn't, then surely common courtesy toward all who live here in their new country as to bring with them the very thing that ruined their country is not only irresponsible, but quite disrespectful I would say, especially given what we here in Australia had to offer newcomers.

The fact is, Muslims are not the problem, Islam is the problem and I say this because both so called moderate Muslims and extremists both draw from it. It should have been left behind when they chose a new life in a new country.

SOL: They are just human beings living their lives peacefully, as I am.

Until the demand something stop because it offends their Religion or someone offends Mohammad. Suddenly they turn Terrorist. It doesn't take much & the more of them the less it will take. Europe is a good example of that.

recthub: I say this because both so called moderate Muslims and extremists both draw from it.

Just to reiterate once again;

As all the great learned moslem Imams & even the President of Turkey has said, "There are no Moderate moslems there are only moslems. To say one is a moderate moslem is an insult to Islam."

Suse,

"Gee Is Mise, your 'Muslim friends' but be very good friends indeed to admit to you that they have no choice but to follow Muslim extremists! Surely you should report them to the relevant authorities if that is the case?

I know several Muslim families, and none have ever said anything like that to me or our other friends"

It's a matter of trust.

A matter of trust aye Is Mise?
So they must trust that you won't report them to the relevant authorities then.
You mustn't be a very good Australian citizen then?

Others here think that any Muslims emigrating here should leave their religion behind.
You surely can't be serious?
Isn't that denying them the freedom of religious beliefs that we extend to everyone else?
That would be a form of racism...again.

Dear Is Mise,

It isn't a matter of trust but one of logic.
You need to give the matter some more thought.

On the Waleed Aly article for example, you ask
"which of our other criminals justify their
actions by recourse to a religious book?"

Well you can't blame the actions of any
misguided or troubled individual on an entire
religious or minority group.

There's many criminals who "heard voices" or
claimed to be "guided by God" in their actions.
But then I'm sure you must know that.

Indeed Foxy.
How often do we hear the excuse from a murderer, and often a serial killer, that 'God made me do it.' ? Certainly, it can be any God (Allah, Yahweh, Buddha, Jesus, Jehovah, etc) at all that can be in this madman's mind as he/she kills someone.

Years ago, people would have said they were saints or prophets who could 'hear' the words of their Gods. These days, we call them criminally insane and lock them up for years with other like-minded individuals.
Terrorists who kill in the name of their God are criminally insane....no more and no less.

Dear Suse,

Even the French President after the Paris debacle
stated that the lunatics who committed the crimes
in Paris had nothing to do with the religion of
Islam. They were fanatics.

Unfortunately some people have their own rationalisations
and prefer to blame religion. These people are more
interested in condemnation and punishment than in
any explanations. Explanations to them seem tantamount to
sympathizing and excusing.

They are reluctant to modify their judgements.
No matter how much logic or facts are presented.
The result is usually a complete breakdown in
communication.

See you on another discussion.

Suze, denying one of their religious freedom in order to protect the wellbeing of a peace loving nation, like Australia, could hardly be classed as racism.

As for you and foxy trying to compare a lunatic citing gods intervention and a Muslim terrorist, you are simply trying once again to water down terrorism. Let me remind you that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result. These Muslims fled their country that in their own words had been ruined by Islam, yet brought the same religion with them.

In fact, bringing something to a country (Islamic beliefs) knowing that it may cause mass harm could be classed as criminal. Its most certainly disrespectful to the home folk.

Of cause if we were to go to their country and practice Christianity we would be shot. But that's not a problem in your eyes. go figure!

Dear rectub,

Again you are doing exactly what you're accusing
Suse and myself of doing. This is not very productive.

Muslim grievances and frustration are exacerbated
by economic, political and social factors that lead
to violence - not as a result of their religion.
Study history.

There are quite a few articles on the subject
of Christianity and violence on the web.
All you have to do is Google them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

Very well, we've established a case for the indictment of Liberal Christians as supporters and enablers of Islamic terror and Muslim vice, same god, same principles. Then again nobody from the nationalist side ever claimed otherwise, if ISIS is a perversion of Islam then Pope Francis is practicing a perverted form of Christianity.

Foxy: They are reluctant to modify their judgements. No matter how much logic or facts are presented. The result is usually a complete breakdown in communication.

& Vici Versa. You haven't really presented any facts.

Foxy: Muslim grievances and frustration are exacerbated by economic, political and social factors that lead to violence - not as a result of their religion.

That's right. If anyone in their adopted country does anything to upset moslem sensitivities that gives them the right to be violent. such as a woman walking down the street dress in normal Western Style dress gives them the right to rape her & it's the woman's fault.

Foxy: Study history.

I do, but I don't pick & choose accounts that only appeal to a lefty, do-gooder view.

Suse,

"A matter of trust aye Is Mise?
So they must trust that you won't report them to the relevant authorities then.
You mustn't be a very good Australian citizen then?"

There is nothing to report as an expression that they would be influenced by fear of what the extremists would do to them is not a crime.

I pays me taxes an' wears me medals on Anzac Day; what more do you ask of a citizen?

As predicted, it is going to be yet another year of the same old, same old for the self-loathing leftists who would diversify their hated 'Whites' and 'Europeans' out of existence and don't care what they replace them with.

They are shameless in their reverse Apartheid. Compartmentalised, unthinking, steel-trap minds and driven by emotion, but not emotion of any good sort.

Honestly, is it really diversity to populate the rest of the world with the endless overflow from nations where women are denied education and birth control and medieval cultures that are toxic to our own?

The leftist moral BS artists do not deserve the 'do gooder' label. They are anything but that.

Fox and lock-step Suseonline,

Here you go, a report that is now usual for Germany,

http://tinyurl.com/jfphodk
<Germany on edge as migrant tensions rise
JANUARY 2, 2016

GERMANY is a country on edge.

As the world celebrated on New Year’s Eve, Germans were being warned about the “imminent” threat of a terrorist attack...

In that tense environment, German authorities have covered up crimes committed by migrants to avoid alarming the public, the national newspaper Bild has claimed>

You would doubtless be saying that it is the German people who are being 'insensitive' to the needs of Islamist economic migrants and it is the law-abiding German people who are themselves at fault for Muslim riots and crime. You would maintain that it is the Germans have to be 'educated' on how they must bend over backwards and forwards to accommodate the Islamists.

The first goal for 2016 should be to rid Australia from the clutches of the deeply embedded political correctness that strangles free speech.

Hi Suse,

"Terrorists who kill in the name of their God are criminally insane....no more and no less."

Are you suggesting that there can be no such thing as a sane terrorist ?

I agree wholeheartedly with you, that any convicted terrorist, provided he has not already been shot trying to escape, should be confined, and if indeed insane, confined for life as 'criminally insane'.

But is it just possible that some quite sane people can be persuaded by verses in the Koran that, in order to enforce a Caliphate all over the world and thereby bring down Allah's rule across the world, they must use whatever means necessary ? Terror, after all, is a very effective weapon of a very few to 'persuade' very many to comply with its directions - that's how it is supposed to work.

Of course, to kill without provocation, such as happened to that poor bloke in Parramatta, or to attack without provocation, as happened to those coppers in Melbourne, or .... etc., etc., - may indicate insanity. As a nurse, you would be aware of instances of such insanity, DV, brutal beatings, glassing, kickings.

But perhaps we need to differentiate between drunken attacks, and attacks which have been provoked by references to a book, perhaps by imams, attacks which some quite sane person has been led to believe is in a 'good cause', i.e. the spread of Islam over all the world. Is it at all possible that somebody, influenced by religious principles and a very persuasive imam/emir/sheikh, kadi etc., could possibly commit a violent crime ?

I don't know: as an ex-communist, it never occurred to me to ever hurt an innocent person in my 'cause', not in fifty years. Seriously. Never. Innocent people were, by definition, the very people whose benefit one was working for, even if they didn't know it. If anything, one was supposed to die for the people, for innocent people, certainly not kill them at random. Perhaps,

[TBC]

[continued]

you might say, I was completely sane, and therefore unable to commit a terrorist act, but many people, over the years, would disagree with you.

So, I would respectfully submit that most of the terrorists now killing and raping and burning people alive, etc. are quite sane. Yes, many are psychotics, sociopaths, who should have been locked away for life before they joined ISIS as a precaution, if we only knew.

Yes, I agree with your implicit assumption, that some ideologies are pathological. They can turn some people insane. As well, many weak people - not just on the 'left' - crave certainty, direction, being told, not having to negotiate their way in a complex world - wanting to cut the Gordian knot of complexity and fall into the comforting arms of a god, safe forever. Plus, the 72 re-usable virgins are something of a bonus ! And all you have to do is kill somebody, in the name of something. Sweet !

Joe

Joe,
You are wasting your time. As far as Suse is concerned, anyone who is opposed to or criticizes Islam is a racist, pure and simple.

Foxy the same, she presented some 'facts' a while back that proved Australia was a racist country. This included the 'fact' that we imprison brown asylum seekers and the 'fact' of the Northern Territory intervention. So I guess we are racist according to them.

No amount of logic will change their minds.

Loudmouth, of course some of the terrorists may well be sane, but I do question the sanity of anyone who truly believes that if they kill or die for their God they will receive 16 virgins when they get to heaven?? How can any sane person believe that?

It sounds like a very human man wrote that little sentence!
One wonders what the female suicide bombers get in heaven?

The fact remains that, like all religions and religious books, Muslims will cherry pick what they like from the Koran, and thankfully not all of them will believe all that c##p and act on it.

We already have Muslims and Mosques here in Australia so we might as well get on with it and just continue living alongside them peacefully.
If they aren't peaceful, then, like anyone else, they will be dealt with by law.
It isn't rocket science for most intelligent Australians.

Suse,

Have you got around yet to the sanctioning of wife beating in the qur'an?

Have you asked your Muslim friends about it yet?

Ever come across FGM in your nursing duties?

If you did, did you report it to the relevant authorities?

Is Mise, what IS your fascination with wife beating?
Wife beaters exist all over the world, so what is your point?

Actually I haven't had to deal with any cases of FGM in my working life of over 33 years in the health system, so I am guessing it isn't as bad as you guys like to think it is.

Mind you, I have had to deal with the awful physical and mental injuries of babies and young children who suffered genital injuries after being raped by Australian adult males who weren't Muslim, if that is what you mean?

Dear Is Mise and Banjo,

the following link just may
help towards further understanding.

http://mic.com/articles/39669/3-simple-charts-that-explain-what-muslims-believe*.OZFzG2GNW

Ok Suze so the best defence you can come up with is the adult non muslim male who rapes a child. I guess that's about 0.0001% we are talking about and even then I would suggest 90% of those were imports or born to imports.

You see any genuine Australian man who's son committed such a crime would beat the living crap out of them and disown them. I certainly would.

Once you allow races in that disrespect women thats what you get.Good old multiculturalism at its finest.

Per Costello in his "Costello Memoirs," states
that that outside Australia's indigenous
people we are all immigrants or descendants
of immigrants. some earlier than others but all
with an experience of immigration during the
foundation of modern Australia.

Australia we're told is part of the New World
the world if immigrants, not part of the Old World
or the places they embark from. This is why most
of us are suspicious of inherited titles and
privileges. Nobody can get too precious about their
positions or entitlements because we all know that
positions or entitlements are comparatively few.

Australia's immigration experience is also a broad one
Originally it was an Anglo-Celtic but after the war our
immigrants cam increasingly from various parts of
Europe, In more recent times, this changed again. And all
these immigrant communities have made successful
contributions to Australian life.

This has occurred within an institutional framework and
positive policy programs. This framework preserves
tolerance and protects order so we can celebrate and enjoy
our diversity.

I can't understand why you keep harping on about the
activities of criminals. They come in all shapes and sizes
and all are bound to obey by our laws. Violence is not just
assigned to just a select few as you seem to believe.

Suse,

You finally responded!!

"Is Mise, what IS your fascination with wife beating?
Wife beaters exist all over the world, so what is your point?"

My fascination was in getting your response to the sanctioned wife beating in the Qur'an, to it being approved therin and to the continued immigration to this country of people whose religio/political system encourages wife beating.
So, once again, what do you think of Muslims allowing and even encouraging wife beating?

You have indeed been fortunate to not come across examples of FGM in your nursing career, I personally know midwives who have come across the practice and who have had the experience of difficult delivery because of reduced elasticity due to scaring and consequent recourse to the shears because of it; none of them ever liked having to use the shears.

Foxy,
I set Suze this homework and she didn't hand it in:

Your task is to provide us with Australian crime statistics broken down by ethnic background, parents ethnic background and place of birth, reassure the "racists" that there's no elevated risk of crime from third world immigrants, their children and grandchildren.

For bonus credits you can submit data on the economic performance of migrants, what proportion are on welfare, how many work illegally in the black economy etc.

As I've said many times before, based on the available information there's no reason for optimism regarding mass Third world immigration, the proper reaction is caution, suspicion and a desire to distance oneself from migrants.
We're constantly accused of being ignorant but if there's no information available to us how is it possible to be educated on these matters?
Furthermore anyone insisting that Third world immigration is beneficial to White Australians is clearly a fraud as there's no way they could make a judgement either way.

Foxy,

"Australia's immigration experience is also a broad one
Originally it was an Anglo-Celtic...."

Take your own advice and read history, there were,

"....at least 12 black Africans, Americans or West Indians plus 14 North Americans, and 15 Other Nationalities ,comprising convicts from Madagascar, West Indies, Holland, France, Germany, Norway, Portugal, Jamaica, Sweden, Bengal India, and Scandinavia

At least 9 Jewish folk, in the main convicts, were also on the Fleet. It is of interest...."
http://www.fellowshipfirstfleeters.org.au/storie6.html
6th paragraph from bottom of page.

Hi Is Mise,

And it didn't stop there: at one time in the NT, most of the non-Indigenous population would have been Chinese. Similarly, around Broome and Cooktown.

When I was working on the correspondence of the Protector of Aborigines here in SA, I was surprised at how many Africans, African-Americans and West Indians seemed to have married into Aboriginal families. One Afro-American bloke named Campbell tried to set up a fishing business with Aboriginal people on lake Alexandrina in about 1860. Another bloke from Mauritius married an Aboriginal woman and claimed rations for some years.

Women too: An Afro-American woman and a West Indian woman married Aboriginal men around Adelaide. Another woman, described as West Indian 'Creole' - which, in the 1860s-70s may have meant Afro-American, not just 'West-Indian-born' - married an Aboriginal bloke on the Murray.

And of course, Chinese: there seems to have been at least four in SA who married Aboriginal women. A couple of Jewish men married Aboriginal women in SA in the nineteenth century, and Germans as well: one of the grand-daughters of one of the Chinese blokes married a German bloke around Port Pirie. And marriages between Afghan men and Aboriginal women have been common since the year Dot.

And of course, since the War, many marriages of Aboriginal people here in SA have been with people from a very wide range of non-Anglo origin: Poles, Greeks, Italians, Fijian Indians, Maltese. So it's no wonder that some of the young women of today are quite beautiful, inheriting the best of all of their ancestries, as Darwin would suggest.

Joe

Dear Is Mise,

There of course in our history books you get -
"First Fleet arrived. It brought 1000 English
convicts." It didn't. It brought 1000 convicts
but probably they came from a dozen different
countries. As somebody put it so well,
"English jails were no respecters of nationality."

The First Italian arrived in January 26 1788,
Giuseppe Tuso. There were people from South Africa,
there were people from Ceylon, from India,
from Spain, from Portugal, from Hungary.

So people say, "Do you believe Australia should
become a multi-cultural society?"

My reply is "It doesn't matter what any of us think.
It's what it is - which is a country of tremendous
diversity."

Foxy: Australia's immigration experience is also a broad one
Originally it was an Anglo-Celtic but after the war our immigrants came increasingly from various parts of Europe,

But Caucasian & Christian.

Foxy: In more recent times, this changed again. And all these immigrant communities have made successful contributions to Australian life.

But mainly Asian, Buddhist & Hindu.

Strangely, there have never Security issues with these people. All the previous immigrants adapted & embraced Australian life with gusto, grateful to be in a free & safe Country.

Now we are saving Middle Easterners, Islam. Suddenly there is a serious heightened Security problem in Australia. Australia is no longer a safe Country.

Middle Easterners are offended by our lifestyle & demand that Australian change to suit their sensitivities. A problem Australian never had with previous immigrants.

The Middle Easterners are aggressively intolerant of all other Cultures & Lifestyles. From a Politically Correct point of view, Islam is, anti everything every Feminist has ever fought for. It seems that the very people that that push the equality & Feminist Barrow are in favour of destroying the very gain they made, in the name of Political Correctness.

The Feminists, Left, Politically Correct & Do-Gooders are hell-bent on destroying themselves & the rest of us with them, for the sake of their ever changing ethereal ideal.

Every value the FLPCDG'S fought for & won is abhorrent to Middle Easterners. Why would the FLPCDG's fight for the very Culture that will destroy them? I really don't understand that.

JayB, you forgot to use the word 'some' in front of the words 'Middle Easterners' in your predictable post above.
Otherwise, all your rants in that post would be a lie...

Poor ol' Suse,

Talks a great game, but when it comes to the crunch, she runs like a scalded cat.

Still waiting (days now) for Suse to tell us what it is she admires about Islam.

Is it the genital mutilation of young girls, marriage of first cousins, the mindless violence from the followers of the "Religion of Peace"? The intolerance of any other religion? The subjugation of women? The murder of gays? The mutilation of petty criminals? The stoning of females accused of adultery?

Or is it the Islamists' sense of entitlement? The economic invasion of Europe, mainly by young Muslim men, is a case in point. This year it will cost Germany $28 billion to carry the million-plus invaders.

That's a transfer of $28 billion from German citizens who have built up capital over centuries by their hard work and taxes. Now the invaders just demand it be handed over to them.

Open question, Suse. Tell us in your own words.

And don't forget the FGM.

I have no further wish to argue.

I've stated quite clearly our country's past
history - how our country has changed in the last
decades and what we need to do about it.

You can't bring back the past - but you can plan
for the future. Social cohesion is extremely
important.

I am getting fed up with people who simply refuse
to see what our Governments have seen and the
positive policy programs that we have in place.

You may not agree with any of it - but most
intelligent Australians do.

This about says it all. https://www.youtube.com/embed/yZZlo0WZ_iU?rel=0

Foxy: how our country has changed in the last decades and what we need to do about it.

Yes, you are for letting in more moslems. The Country has changed, for the worst, because of the influx of Middle Easterners.

Foxy: You can't bring back the past - but you can plan for the future. Social cohesion is extremely important.

So, are you saying that we should give in & accept Islam for the sake of Social Cohesion. Hmmmm...

Foxy: I am getting fed up with people who simply refuse to see what our Governments have seen and the positive policy programs that we have in place.

Yep, that's why Australia has a heightened Security we didn't have a few decades ago before the Middle Eastern influx. That's a positive if I ever saw one. eh.

Foxy: You may not agree with any of it - but most intelligent Australians do.

We don't & you are kidding yourself about the FLPCDG's being intelligent, aren't you? The intelligent people in Australia consider these people to be nutters, & rightly so.

SOL: JayB, you forgot to use the word 'some' in front of the words 'Middle Easterners' in your predictable post above. Otherwise, all your rants in that post would be a lie...

No I didn't. When push comes to shove the moslems will back their Religion with as much violence & they can muster. Especially the so called Peaceful ones. The 5th. column, lying in wait.

Enjoy the song, It's great.

Fox, "It doesn't matter what any of us think. It's what it is - which is a country of tremendous diversity"

It is typical and only to be expected of leftist 'Progressives', the Fabian International Socialists, that they always presume to know what is best for others.

They see democracy as optional, only ok where their opinions are allowed to rule. Otherwise democracy and free speech are pesky encumbrances that are always getting in the road of their social experimentation (and in the road of their middle class greed, materialism and conspicuous consumption).

However there are always different rules where they themselves are concerned, of course.

There are always 'useful idiots' to support their excesses and to rationalise their mistakes though. The jet-setting Julia Gillard with her $2million seaside bungalow is an example. Hey, Julia, what about that 'poisonous carbon dioxide' and those 'rising seas' you went on about and gave away millions of taxpayers' dollars to other countries as 'compensation'?

There is increasing anti-social behaviour from people refuse to fit in to Australian society. Sydney and other capitals already have the reality or makings of 'no-go zones' for other citizens and police.

There was no consultation with the Australian people on the diversity-Australia-has-to-have and on the massive rises in immigration and population over the last decade. It was just foisted on the public by governments contemptuous of democracy and of the voters they have come to dismiss as 'punters'(sic) who can easily be turned by spin before an election.

Contrary to what you would like others to believe, Fox, immigration is NOT beyond control. It is as simple as a 'No' or 'Not so many' from the Minister for Immigration. -Your 'fact-checking'(that is a laugh) ABC is not telling you that though, which begs the question, 'Why not?'.

Back in the 'olde' days we had no public swimming between 7:00 AM and 7:00 PM
then things got relaxed a bit and daylight swimming was allowed, some places it was segregated by gender.
Then came the enlightenment and mixed bathing was allowed, came WWII and as an aftermath the Bikini costume.
Many migrants came, fitted in to the local lifestyle, put on their togs and went for a swim with the rest.

Things changed however with the increase of Muslim immigration and now we have segregated swimming again with some pools having women only time.

Ain't progress great!!

News years celebrations called off in Belgium, train stations shut down in Berlin and armed guards running around, innocents shot up in France. None so ignorant and blind.

Oh what good news Runner! You and all the regressives must all be salivating with delight at the misfortunes of those European countries at the hands of mad ISIS followers.

Again I ask though, why should ALL Muslim people be punished for the sins of a few?
It's not as though their God would punish all women for all time for that one bite of a forbidden apple by good old Eve back in the old garden, like the good old Christian God apparently did?

SOL: You and all the regressives must all be salivating with delight at the misfortunes of those European countries at the hands of mad ISIS followers.

No we aren't & that is insulting Suze. As Foxy says, "You may not agree with any of it - but most intelligent Australians do," recognize the reason it's happening that is.

I say again; When push comes to shove the moslems will back their Religion with as much violence & they can muster. Especially the so called Peaceful ones. The 5th. column, lying in wait.

moslems: see, "mad ISIS followers."

I say again; As all the great learned moslem Imams & even the President of Turkey has said, "There are no Moderate moslems there are only moslems. To say one is a moderate moslem is an insult to Islam." Out.

Again Susie your hatred and misrepresenting of the true God leaves you no discernment at all especially when it comes to Islam.

Foxy, immigrants have changed as those who came in the 50's 60's 70's came for a better life and in fact helped shape the nation. Then came the Muslims, the Samoans etc who have a huge percentage who came here to live of the benefits others provide. In fact we have generations of immigrants who have never worked a day in their lives.

If this is a better Australia you've got me, in fact, as recent as last night another model citizen, a young teenager was bashed by islanders in the city mall.

While our immigrants of yesteryear may have helped shape our nation, the recent lot have dragged us through the mud.

Now you are entitled to disagree but you will need to wear your blinkers to do so.

"While our immigrants of yesteryear may have helped shape our nation.."

Not all of them, that is just the sacred cow spin that federal governments have used to justify growthism and taxpayers having to pay for the infrastructure, health and welfare.

After all, if there weren't continual records being set in immigration (with the taxpayer paying for them), how could the banks and developers continue to post increasing profits?

To take a couple of examples, some migrants from the Mediterranean area were infamous for insurance and social security scams. For another there was the importation of the Mafia, although some of them did not need to be gang members to be violent.

Not that federal governments ever admitted any of that or were successful in tightening controls and definitely not where sudden large intakes were concerned.

However Labor must have known for instance that Al Grassby, the Immigration Minister it spruiked as the 'Father of Multiculturalism' had Mafia connections. For their part the LNP proved that money talks,

http://www.smh.com.au/national/political-donations-wide-open-to-mafia-corruption-20150626-ghycxk.html

Frankly I'd be more concerned about the criminal gangs and propensity to join gangs of some migrants groups than their terrorism. No, they do not join gangs because they are being 'discriminated' against either. Just a part of the culture and traditions of some of the mobs that are being imported as the 'diversity' tail wags the immigration policy dog.

What is missing in Australia is any real review of immigration - as in rigorous scrutiny, independent from lobbyists' and political interference (which includes those academic grants that always produce the desired political results).

The problem appears to be in this
discussion that people are cherry-picking verses
from the Quran to condemn all Muslims rather
than being rightfully angry at particular groups
like ISIS who also cherry-pick verses from the
Quran to sanctify their atrocities.

The argument then goes - Christianity good -
Islam bad. Christians good- Muslims - bad.
Forgetting the atrocities also committed
by Christians. Atrocities like - the Inquisition,
Crusades, witch trails, slavery, Pogroms,
segregation, Native American cleansing,
Bosnia Genocide in 1992, the ongoing civil war
in the Central African Republic,
child sexual abuse, and the ongoing
atrocities happening today in
the Central African Republic, where thousand
upon thousands of their Muslim
neighbours are slaughtered.and the shootings
in the USA.

The problem is not Islam or Christianity.
The problem is hate, intolerance,
and fanaticism, and these transcend religion.

Dearest Foxy,

As you suggest, everybody cherry-picks: there are passages in the Old Testament, written 2,500 years ago, and passages in the Koran, practised today, which advocate 'religions of peace', and there are passages which glorify brutality. That's the nature of such books.

It's probably agreed that not all Muslims adhere to the bits of their book which glorify brutality. Still, some may do: sane or not, some people commit brutal acts in the name of their god. I can't recall any Buddhists, Jains, Yazidis or Ahmaddiyahs doing so lately, say in the last five years, but I'll keep looking.

It's also probably conceded that migration now is different from migration fifty, sixty, seventy years ago, when a multitude of infrastructure projects needed relatively unskilled labour in great numbers, and when a massive consumer economy was built on the backs of those workers. But those days are gone: such infrastructure projects, and the manufacturing industries built on them and the needs of their workers, are simply not present now. Australia now needs far better-skilled migrants than it ever did before.

I hope you can agree with me :)

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

There are fanatics in all religions.

What I object to is the hate, intolerance
and fanaticism cast at a particular group
living in this country. How would you feel
if every day whatever happened anywhere in
the world you and your religion were demonised
on a daily basis - that had nothing to do with
you - but no matter what the act or by what nut-jobs -
it was always the fault of your religion.

Reclaim Australia are a small minority - yet their
rallies are a perfect example of anti-Islam that attract so
much publicity and there are people who buy into this
nonsense. They are not peaceful rallies either.

Dearest Foxy,

I think that the 'demonization of Islam' is a bit over-stated. On the one hand, there do seem to be grounds for criticising how Islam is used to justify all manner of brutality (Saudi executions, ISIS executions, bombings, rape, sexual slavery, burnings, etc.). But I don't see any mass protests - in fact, there are not enough protests - in Australia, or any incitement to attack Muslims in response. Perhaps we sensibly leave such violent protests to places like Pakistan. Oops, sorry, is that demonising Pakistan ?

On my bus, Muslims (as far as I can identify such fellow-Australians) don't seem to be at all uncomfortable, or worried, or showing evidence of recent harassment, or recent physical attacks. On that very narrow basis, I would assert that Muslims are most definitely NOT being demonised.

I hope that the proper critiques of ISIS brutality, and Saudi brutality (and no doubt Iranian brutality) - and the recourse of those perpetrators to the Koran for justification - are not used to shut down discussion, dear Foxy ?

Our Muslim fellow-Australians, male and female, are in the main, I'm sure, supportive of the rule of law, equality of men and women before the law, a fair go for all, equal opportunities for men and women, and democratic rights. I hope that any verses in the Koran which denigrate women or diminish their rights in any way, are properly ignored by the majority of Muslims, men and women: I certainly would like to think so.

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

I certainly don't want to close down this discussion.
I fully agree that we should discuss this subject
and hopefully keep the lines of communication open
thus perhaps leading to the modification of some of
our judgements.

I apologise if I gave you the wrong impression.
I shall strive to do better next time around.

Foxy: Reclaim Australia are a small minority - yet their rallies are a perfect example of anti-Islam that attract so much publicity and there are people who buy into this nonsense. They are not peaceful rallies either.

But it has been shown that it's the anti-reclaim protestors that are causing violent, not the Reclaimers.

The Media does it's best to try to skew the facts but never-the-less. The take is that the anti-reclaim demonstrators are violent because of the Reclaim protestors presence. It sell papers.

Foxy: Forgetting the atrocities also committed by Christians. Atrocities like - the Inquisition, Crusades.

Yes, yes, but these things happened 500 years ago. They are not happening now, Well maybe a little here & there. Christianity & the West have moved on.

At the same time as the Christian atrocities were happening the moslems were doing the same thing in Eastern Europe, North Africa & India. They have never stopped & never will stop until all the World is converted to Islam. Then they will still fight viciously amongst themselves.

runner: I hope that any verses in the Koran which denigrate women or diminish their rights in any way, are properly ignored by the majority of Muslims, men and women: I certainly would like to think so.

But I seriously doubt it. They uphold the practise of these verses in their homes & Community.

Hi Jayb,

"I hope that any verses in the Koran which denigrate women or diminish their rights in any way, are properly ignored by the majority of Muslims, men and women: I certainly would like to think so."

You responded:

"But I seriously doubt it. They uphold the practise of these verses in their homes & Community."

And, I would suggest, that to the extent that any Muslims, imams, sheikhs, kadis, etc., privately advocate the diminution of women's rights, they should be criticised for doing so. If that turns out to be the case, then we all have a long, ideological struggle in front of us to bring those people into the modern world.

In other words, to get across, no matter how difficult it may be, that Muslim women in Australia have the same basic rights as many other Australians, men and women, that

* polygamy in its many forms,

* FGM,

* honor killings,

* arranged marriages of under-age girls,

* any discriminatory practices against women,

* and any practice in Australia which disadvantages Muslim women going overseas,

are anathema to the great majority of Australians - and hopefully, to the majority of Muslim Australians as well.

To the extent that any Islamic practices discriminate against women, I hope that they are, indeed, properly demonised - not least by any fair-dinkum Australian feminists, if any still exist. And, of course, if any such practices are secretly going on in any other religious community, then they too should be demonised, as totally un-Australian.

Joe

JayB "They uphold the practise of these verses in their homes & Community."

And you know what all Muslims practice in all their homes and communities?
Wow, you ARE impressive.
And sooo knowledgable about all things Muslim.

I thank you Suze. It's about time you recognized my obvious superior knowledge, in comparison to yours, in these areas.

Did you enjoy the song. Good A, n' so true too.

Aah luvs ya darl. You make it soooo easy fa me. We'll have ta meet some time. Carry a red rose so I'll recognize ya under ya Birka, n' please don't wear an s/vest.

Still running, Suse?

When are you going to have the integrity to answer the questions I've put to you now at least twice?

It's been a long time since I've seen such intellectual dishonesty.

Ok, so lets change tact and say, do all immigrants these days pass the no disadvantage test. In other words, do they disadvantage our way of life in any way?

Do they bring anything positive to the table? If so, what?

Do they pose any threats to our 'peace loving' way of life? If so, why should we be the ones to change in order to accommodate them?

Suse, Foxy,

How do you feel about this segregation?

"RATEPAYERS could be stung up to $45,000 to install curtains at a public pool so Muslim women can have privacy during a female-only exercise classes.

The City of Monash has won an exemption from equal opportunity laws to run the sessions outside normal opening hours.

The council says the privacy screen is needed for "cultural reasons".

It follows moves by other councils to introduce women-only sessions for the Muslim community, such as Greater Dandenong asking a tribunal to approve a ban on uncovered shoulders and thighs for those attending a family event at a pool."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/hefty-bill-for-muslim-womens-privacy-at-public-swimming-pool/story-e6frf7kx-1226004006696

Wonder if this still goes on?

How would a couple of Aussie sheilas go if they wanted to wear bikinis at a poos in Saudi Arabia?

Next plane home if they were lucky!!

Firstly, everyone does deserve a fair go.
That's the Australian way.
But this is our country and our culture and we shouldn't have to give any of our freedoms up in order to please those who would never be satisfied with our western society.

Australians having to cover up at local pools - Madness.

I say the time for compromise with these people is over.
Its bad enough they demand special treatment because of their religion but then they expect us to pay for their sensitivities?

Arent they getting enough out of us already?

Would all those who uphold the concept of a fair go care to comment on child marriages in Islam?

'Would all those who uphold the concept of a fair go care to comment on child marriages in Islam?

unfortunately the concept seems to be 72 virgins for the young suicide bombers and the real deal for the older men. Check out Mohammeds example.

Hi runner,

Are you referring to the practice, hopefully not in Australia, of overnight 'marriages' ? Since men can have four 'wives', if a bloke has 'only' three, in some parts, he can 'marry' a woman, presumably by paying an imam, and then divorce her in the morning, presumably after also paying an imam. Quite an earner, one would think.

In the Middle Ages in Catholic Europe, churches offered dispensations, indulgences, etc., and ran brothels out the back, perhaps where something similar was arranged, and properly paid for.

In this way, prostitution is not only allowed, and men satisfied, but the mosque is also enriched: win-win-win !

Perhaps it is the absence of 'free will' in Islam, but it does seem that often observance of the spirit of the 'divine law' is somewhat circumvented by the observance of the letter of the law. As with prostitution. Similarly with money-lending, by banks and in the case of mortgaging. [More on that if room permits].

I wonder if, in religions which do have some sense of free will, one must grapple in one's own mind - without relying on being told what is the letter of the law - with what is right and wrong, and act accordingly, but in religions where it is all prescribed for you, chapter and verse, over time all sorts of means have been found to get around the spirit, in order to put the letter into practice, and make a buck.

Fascinating.

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Is Mise,

Many states in the USA permit child marriages
according to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

Wikipedia tells us that child marriage was common throughout
history for a variety of reasons - including poverty,
insecurity, as well as political and financial reasons.
I wonder how many child marriages Henry VIII had or for
that matter any of the European Royals?

Joseph (husband of Mary was 90).

Today child marriages are still common in developing
countries including - Latin America and Oceania.
Then there's also parts of Africa, South Asia, South
and South east Asia, and many others.

Foxy,

So that makes it OK in Australia today?

Do you think that Muslims should be able to marry children, consummate the marriages and have girls that are not physically mature enough to bear children go through the rigours of childbirth?

Or do you think that they should not be allowed to practice child marriage even though it is condoned and indeed looked upon as good in Islam as it is following the example of the Prophet?

//RATEPAYERS could be stung up to $45,000 to install curtains//

This sounds more like a story of local government incompetence to me. 45 grand for some bloody curtains? Either those curtains are fashioned of the purest silk threaded with precious stones, or the Mafia are doing the installation, or both. Probably both. I imagine that even Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II would consider 45,000 colonial dollars an excessive quote for some curtains.

//Would all those who uphold the concept of a fair go care to comment on child marriage//

Certainly: child marriage is bad, mmkay. It's bad when the Mormons do it - and they love it - it's bad when the Muslims do it, it's bad when indigenous Australians do it, and it's bad when any of the minor cults that spring up then die off quickly (many of them apparently purely for the sexual gratification of the cult's guru) do it. It's also bad when it is just sexual abuse without invoking the concept of marriage; is it really any better for a young girl to be violated by her parish priest than her 'spouse'?

//So that makes it OK in Australia today?//

NO.

Are you some kind of a simpleton?

//Do you think that Muslims should be able to marry children, consummate the marriages and have girls that are not physically mature enough to bear children go through the rigours of childbirth?//

NO.

Exactly how slow are you?

//Or do you think that they should not be allowed to practice child marriage even though it is condoned and indeed looked upon as good in Islam as it is following the example of the Prophet?//

YES.

See, I knew you weren't stupid.

Paedophilia and child marriage are illegal under Australian law, for good reason. Australian law should come before God's law (because we can demonstrate the existence of Australia but not of God). Religious belief should not be some sort of 'get out of jail free' card.
....

continued

A crime is a crime; a sin may or may not be a crime, but a crime not being sinful should not be a legal defence under Australian law. And I'm pretty sure it isn't, but I have no training in the law so I could be wrong.

If you inflict unnecessary surgery upon an individual who cannot give consent - e.g. if you mutilate a child's genitals when they are very young - you should be charged with grievous bodily harm. Sadly, we have a ludicrous double standard in our society which says that FGM is bad, mmkay, but MGM is fine. I think child genital mutilators should be charged under Australian law regardless of their faith or the children whose genitals they are mutilating. So yes, round up the Muslims and throw the book at them... but at the same time round up the Jews and the Christians who are guilty of the same crime. Anything else would be a double standard.

If you are a psychiatrist/psychologist/counsellor, you are duty bound to report violent and sexual crimes confessed to under what would otherwise be doctor/patient confidentiality. The same rules should apply to Priests hearing confession. But they don't. Do you think Catholic Priests who hear confessions of violent and/or sexual crimes should be duty bound to report them like other counsellors are?

If you marry a child, you are a rock-spider and a criminal. Quote all the scripture you like; it's of no relevance to pantheists. I don't care about your Good Book, because its complete bullshyt. The Australian legal system is not built on your scripture. If you had your child's genitals mutilated then you're a criminal, even if you're a Jew maintaining some non-existent Covenant with your non-existent God. If you protect paedophiles and murderers then you're a criminal, even if the Catholic Church gives you a pat on the back. If you marry children then you're a criminal, even if it's condoned in the writings of your Prophet (Joseph Smith).

Feel better now, Toni?

JayB, were I out to meet you I would think a Burqa was too skimpy to wear :)

Calwest...I'm sorry, I was bored and forgot what it was you keep rabbiting on about.

Is Mise, no, I don't condone illegal practices from anyone. Do you?

Thanks for that response Toni, it saves me repeating myself over and over to paranoid questions asked over and over... sigh...

We have laws against all the nasty practices mentioned above, and we already have home-grown paedophiles etc in Australia, of which the vast majority I have seen on the media or read about are old white males.
Hasn't everyone read about the charming old Aussie rock spiders who visit Thailand and the Philippines on a regular basis to get easier access to kids? Nasty.

//Feel better now, Toni?//

You tories always seem to get your frilly panties in a bunch when people evade your rhetorical questions. Why won't you answer some of mine?

Loudmouth

' Are you referring to the practice, hopefully not in Australia, of overnight 'marriages' ? Since men can have four 'wives', if a bloke has 'only' three, in some parts, he can 'marry' a woman, presumably by paying an imam, and then divorce her in the morning, presumably after also paying an imam. Quite an earner, one would think. '

I had a friend who was silly enough to marry a muslim only to find out later he had wives in other countries. She was getting past the flower of her youth so unfortunately was feeling a bit desperate. What I was referring to was that the old men are never stupid enough to be the suicide bombers. It is the young who are promised the virgins while the older men help themselves here on earth.

Foxy, "Many states in the USA permit child marriages"

Overwhelmingly immigrants you might have added.

http://www.tahirih.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/REPORT-Tahirih-Survey-on-Forced-Marriage-in-Immigrant-Communities-in-the-United-States.pdf

Add liberal(leftist) judges and their 'Progressivism' and the young girls don't have much of a chance do they?

Huge mob attacked at least 35 women at train station
http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.2339/huge-mob-attacked-at-least-35-women-at-train-station.html

Report from Cologne, up to 100 "Flüchtlinge" formed two lines on the concourse of the station to rob and sexually assault female passers by, funny, they do that sort of thing outside the Casino in Melbourne and nobody says anything, I just thought sexual abuse of women was acceptable to Refugee Advocates.

G'day Toni,
Underage marriage is another instance of muslim contempt for our laws and social standards. You may recall the instance of a convert to Islam marrying off his 12 year old daughter to a 26 year old male. At the time a Dr.Eman Sharobeen, who runs the Immigrant Womens Health Service in Fairfield, Sydney told the press that she knew of 60 underage marriages that occurred in the past 3 years. That being correct, underage marriage is far more common than people realize. I think she also said she could find 100 underage marriages at any given time.

On the subject of FGM, No FGM OZ has done extensive research and estimates that 1100 girls in Australia are 'at risk' each year. An 'at risk' girl is one that has a mother that herself has been subject to FGM. Medicos are supposed to report FGM but it is not enforced.

The problem is that although we have laws against both the above the laws are not enforced. I once asked the NSW Health Minister why there were no prosecutions and her reply was "there are cultural considerations"

The laws should apply equally to all people.

By the way there is a vast difference between FGM and male circumcision. FGM involves removal of flesh and organs. Male circumcission only removes some skin and medicos still debate medical benefits of such. FGM is against the law and no Aussie born girl should have to endure it.

No doubt Jay Of Melbourne Merkel will be given some humanitarian award.

Suze & Foxy: Your average moslem when enraged.
https://www.facebook.com/612585995525442/videos/872606396190066/

I just love the way they mix Female Equality Domestic Violence. Looking forward to this sort of behaviour from your average normal moslem in Australia are we. With your support this is what Australia can look forward too. Enjoy.

Suze: JayB, were I out to meet you I would think a Burqa was too skimpy to wear :)

What would worry me would be the Suicide Vest under the Burka.

Banjo: By the way there is a vast difference between FGM and male circumcision.

I'll say there is. Male Circumcision only removes the loose flap of skin around the head of the Penis there-by making it more Hygienic. FGM removes the sensitive Gland of the Clitoris which removes any pleasure the woman would have in sex. Pleasure is only for the man. The woman may as well be a fence post with a knot-hole, a car exhaust, goat or donkey.

Did you know that Arabs invented the Condom?

They used a Goats intestine. The British improved on that idea by removing the intestine from the Goat first. ;-) Sorry in advance.

Jayb,
Nope, removal of the foreskin destroys the main sexual pleasure centre in men, it's in every way as egregious as removing the clitoris and labia.
The Truth About Circumcision
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLmU6xTdeTI
That's the edited version which spares viewers the footage of an actual circumcision, vision which was too much even for me.
People use the tools available to them, in developed countries hygenic surgical options are available for both males and females, in primitive societies children of both sexes are mutilated with razor blades, flint knives or broken glass, in NT Aboriginal communities male ritual circumcision is often botched and children seriously injured.

//Underage marriage is another instance of muslim contempt for our laws and social standards.//

So the non-muslims who marry children are doing so to display their muslim contempt for our laws and social standards? Huh? I don't get it, Banjo: when underage marriage occurs without the involvement of any muslims, how does it logically follow that underage marriage has anything do with muslim attitudes towards our laws and social standards?

//The problem is that although we have laws against both the above the laws are not enforced.//

In that case, I suggest you write a letter to the relevant minister in your State parliament and tell them to lift their game. Where's the sense in having laws that aren't enforced?

//By the way there is a vast difference between FGM and male circumcision.//

No, there isn't.

//Male circumcission only removes some skin//

Which means it doesn't inflict unnecessary pain (sarcasm) and doesn't carry an unnecessary risk of serious complications (more sarcasm). Quite harmless, when you think about it.

If I was to brand a newborn for 'cultural reasons' (well, you don't want any rustlers stealing your young'uns, do ya?), I'd be locked up. But if I just inflict lacerations instead of burns, apparently that's fine...

...

As a nurse having held down baby boys for circumcision by doctors several times many years ago, I can tell you right now that there is nothing 'loose' about a newborn baby's foreskin! They didn't have any anesthetic and they suffered incredible pain as their skin was cut off. It was truly awful. I also cared for babies that had awful infections, haemorhages, and disfigured penis's after these barbaric circumcisions.

These days they can't request circumcisions on the baby boys unless there is a medical reason, or unless they can find a private doctor to do the job outside of hospital.
Jewish people have special private butchers to do their boys, and I remain completely disgusted that this practice still goes on at all.

Banjo, if you have proof that FGM goes on in Australia why haven't you reported those people to the police? If you have no proof, then you are talking rubbish again.

(forced to continue according the arcane policies by which this site is run)

//medicos still debate medical benefits of such.//

No, they don't. They know there are no benefits; the debate is over whether or not there is enough risk of harm to outlaw the practice.

I don't think it should be outlawed, and I don't think it is much more risky than having your ears pierced or getting a tattoo. But if you wanted to tattoo your baby for cultural reasons, people would frown upon it. I think that like tattoos, piercings, earlobe spacers and other purely cosmetic body modifications, they shouldn't be permitted on people below a certain age.

When men reach the age of 16 - the age at which they can consent to their own medical decisions - THEY (not their parents) should be allowed to decide if they want to get circumcised. And I reckon if we left it up to people to decide for themselves, you'd see a marked drop-off in circumcision rates.

//Male Circumcision only removes the loose flap of skin around the head of the Penis there-by making it more Hygienic.//

No, it doesn't. And no, it doesn't. Male circumcisions are botched more often than you would think, and the results are even less pretty than male genitalia normally are. It can be quite horrific. I'd post some links to photos but the prudes who moderate this forum and think that human anatomy is sinful would ban me.

And even if you get it right, removing the foreskin has no real effect on hygiene. This is because foreskins retract, thus allowing those who have them to still effectively sanitise the glans penis without having to permanently remove the foreskin.

Coming to Australia soon. Crimes committed by moderate moslems.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3384423/German-police-hunt-group-1-000-men-Arab-North-African-origin-sexually-assaulted-numerous-women-threw-fireworks-crowds-Cologne-train-station-New-Year-s-Eve.html

Courtesy of all our moslem apologists.

You've gone awfully quite on the subject of circumcision there, Jayb. What's the matter? Don't like to admit when you're wrong?

Suse,

"Is Mise, no, I don't condone illegal practices from anyone. Do you?"

Yes, I think that some laws need to be broken and broken frequently if they are stupid laws.
I am reminded of the law against daylight swimming in Sydney Harbour which was still on the books, despite such favoured swimming spots as Nielsen's Park and Manly.
Some Sydney Uni students brought it to a head in the 1960s by having a dip in the Harbour and then turning themselves in to the police.

The law was swiftly abolished.

TL: You've gone awfully quite on the subject of circumcision there, Jayb. What's the matter? Don't like to admit when you're wrong?

I've never experienced any problems & no one I know has ever experienced any problems. Just looking up my "Anatomica" the explanation & Diagram show no sign of Sexual Gland within the foreskin. There is however the same Gland in the head of the Male Penis as there is in the Y shaped Sexual Gland within the Clitoris of a Female. Removing the surplus skin from the shaft of the Penis only uncovers the head of the Penis. This allows more thorough cleansing of the area.

The peace loving muslims deserve a fair go and the 1000 or so animals that molested girls on news years eve in Germany deserve to be deported to Pakistan. Syria, Iraq where their actions are tolerated. Oh that's right they are poor victims of Howard and Bush. And the regressives are the ones with all the uni degrees. Go figure!

funny how it took abc/fairfax 5 days to report these sexual assaults by up to a thousand immigrant (muslim) men. I suppose they were to busy finding a mentally disturbed 'Christian' killing killers at an abortion clinic in America so the a few regressives can confirm their completely flawed and bigoted narrative.. Anyway Merkel will get all the applause from the UN.

Dear runner,

Perhaps the ones with university degrees can see
the bigger picture. (They can afford to buy bigger
screens). (joke).

What about the person who king-hit that 18 year old young man
and killed him over the Christmas break in Brisbane.? I don't
believe he was a Muslim. And these sort of incidents happen
all the time in this country around night-clubs and pubs.

And BTW Muslims are not allowed alcohol, so you can't blame
them for such attacks. This incident appears to be a typical
trait (ocker) for some.

My husband in his youth lived in a typical inner "ocker"
city suburb with six pubs within easy walking distance
and up until the six o'clock closing - these sort of
incidents were happening all the time. In those days there
were no Muslims in the area. However, historically the whole
of the English/Irish history is full of this sort of behaviour.
They even portray it in television productions.

All you have to do is watch football games and see the behaviour
of some - who head-butt, and fight, and attack others for no
apparent reason. And you can't blame alcohol on the football
field. Before pointing fingers at others we need to clean up
our own behaviour.

If we want to take responsibility for the world we need to
take more seriously our individual contributions to it.
Personal transformation can and does have global effects.
As we go, so goes the world, for the world is us.

Marianne Williamson writes that -

"Ultimately the choice to love each other is the only chance
for a survivable future. The meek shall inherit the earth
because everyone else will have died on their swords.
Every time we open our hearts, we create a space for a
global alternative."

Dear Foxy,

A delightful straw man ! Who says that Muslims commit ALL violent offences ? All coward punches ? Anybody on this thread ?

Of course people from other groups commit violent offences, even violent offences against random people. Why ? Because there are drop-kicks around. If those blokes who killed Cole Miller had been sober, and yelled out 'Om !' or 'Praise the Lord !' or 'Up the Workers !' or some other identifiable religious or political slogan, we might suspect a more deliberate act of random killing.

On those grounds, what do we infer when somebody DOES yell out 'Allahu Akbar !' when they blow somebody's head off, or attack coppers, or shoot people in cafes ? Presumably, that it is a deliberate act of random killing, isn't that so ?

If those two who killed Cole had yelled out 'Allahu Akbar!', what might have been your interpretation ? They didn't, so we can discount their actions as politically or religiously motivated. They'll have plenty of time to reflect on it all. Cole Miller won't.

As for the meek inheriting the earth, what do you reckon people are fleeing Syria for ? Perhaps because they know, in a hundred ways, that in the coming War between Sunni and Shi'a, a ghastly War of Attrition, to the death, they will be like bugs underfoot, that there is absolutely no future for them in Syria, and not for a long time to come. So get the hell out of the place, start fresh somewhere else - anywhere else - and most certainly, that there is no place in Syria for the meek. God, what a stupid thing for Williamson to write.

No offence, dear Foxy :)

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

I agree with Williamson.

Only the most bitter and cynical among us
still cling to the dreams of a soulless
world, but I believe that they are not as
powerful as they claim and people shall rise up
against their influence.

Dear Foxy,

So people shouldn't be fleeing Syria ? They should stay and wait for an opportunity to rise up against the influence of ISIS ? And against the combined forces of the Saudis and Sunni groups and Iran and the Shi'ite groups ? Until they grind each other into the ground, and the poor buggers caught underfoot ?

If I were them, I'd most certainly not risk it, I'd rather get the hell out and take my chances on the Aegean, and the long march to Sweden or wherever.

No, my dear Foxy, sometimes the meek don't inherit the earth. Should people have stayed in eastern Europe and toughed it out against the Soviets and their gulags ? What happened to those that did, do you reckon ?

Sometimes love, meekness and peace don't conquer all.

But love always,

Joe

Dear Joe,

People will always flee danger and oppressive regimes.
After all my own family did just that when
they fled from the Soviet Regime. As did many Displaced
Persons after World War II. They contributed so much
to the enrichment of this country. As I am sure
most of those fleeing here from Syria and other
"oppressive areas" will do exactly the same

Jayb.
Another shining example of 'moderate' muslim conduct in Germany.

Can we trust our media to report incidents when it took the German media 4 days to report this mass sex attack. I recall the Sydney media colluded not to pass on police warnings about gang rape in 2000. Because it may hamper the upcoming Olympics.

Some wonder why I call for a stop to muslim immigration and refugees.

The German sex attacks were by 'moderate' muslims. This is the conduct of those fleeing ISIS.

Foxy: historically the whole of the English/Irish history is full of this sort of behaviour.

Yep, way in the past. So you're saying that because it happened in British history 100 yesrs ago it's excusable by moslem men now. Hmmmm... OK...

Foxy: The meek shall inherit the earth because everyone else will have died on their swords.

Well that's the alternative given to us by moslems. Isn't it.

Loudmouth: So get the hell out of the place, start fresh somewhere else - anywhere else

& bring their War with them as we see all the time in Lakemba between the Shia & the Sunnies. Should I paste all the utube flicks?

Foxy: my own family did just that when they fled from the Soviet Regime.

Russian Orthodox, I take it. Did they ever threaten anyone with death if they didn't convert to Russian Orthodox? No....

Banjo: Can we trust our media to report incidents when it took the German media 4 days to report this mass sex attack.

I have heard that there is, or was, a blanket Ban on reporting crimes committed by moslems in Europe, unless authorized by the Government. So as not to stir up trouble with the Anti-Islam Factions especially German.

//The German sex attacks were by 'moderate' muslims.//

You think it's 'moderate' to grope women and throw explosives into crowds? Really?

Well that tells me all I need to know about your perverted sense of morality. What the hell is wrong with you, Banjo?

//Some wonder why I call for a stop to muslim immigration and refugees.//

Not any more I don't... it's because you're such a sick puppy that you think it's moderate to grope women. Religious bigotry is small fry by comparison. I hope you get locked up before you hurt anybody.

Hi Toni,

Well, he did put it in inverted commas: //The German sex attacks were by 'moderate' muslims.//

It's called 'irony', or 'sarcasm'. As you know very well. But boot it around the paddock for all your worth.

Jayb, yes, it's shaping up to be one of those impossible situations - that people must get out of their country to avoid annihilation, but where can they go to ? Europe will take only so many, and probably fewer if the 'moderate' men keep groping German women.

On the other hand, it's ample proof that some cultural practices are abhorrent, and not just when they are inadvertently practised out of their 'home area'. And how come so many abhorrent cultural practices target women, yet again ?

Cheers,

Joe

I was in JB HiFi yesterday and there were two little blonde boys, maybe six and eight years old running about,looking at all the gadgets and speaking excitedly in German.
I was struck by the fact that I can't recall ever seeing a German child in my life, I've met German backpackers and such but their kids are so rare these days that they really made an impression.
I'll wager we're going to be seeing a lot more German and Swedish families out here in coming years, Foxy, Toni did you realise that per capita the working Swedes contribute about one month's wages each year in taxes to support these subsidised "migrants"?
How are Europeans even supposed to have families these days?
Simple answer, they're not and the people who run their countries are quite open about their desired to see White faces erased, media reports of such comments from officials appear on a daily basis.

' What about the person who king-hit that 18 year old young man
and killed him over the Christmas break in Brisbane.? I don't
believe he was a Muslim. And these sort of incidents happen
all the time in this country around night-clubs and pubs'

surely you can do better than that Foxy. The man will spend many years locked up and hopefully deported to NZ.

You are being deliberately ignorant of the fact that this is how many (not all) muslims think and act. What don't you get about them hating the Western lifestyle. The only thing they like is the welfare and the ease they get legal aid to get off raping white girls in many instances.

//I was struck by the fact that I can't recall ever seeing a German child in my life//

Really? Because when I was in Germany, the place was full of the annoying little shyts. Maybe an Australian JB Hi-Fi isn't the best place to go prowling for foreign kids?

//I'll wager we're going to be seeing a lot more German and Swedish families out here in coming years//

Well that would be nice. I have Swedish cousins (by marriage) and it would be nice to see them a bit more. BTW, I asked them about Sweden being 'the rape capital of Europe'. They shrugged, then suggested I more closely examine the rape rate in Eastern European countries. Now, who should I believe? My cousins who actually live in Sweden, or a bunch of bogans who would have trouble identifying the Swedish flag? I'm going to go with the people who are actually Swedish, because even the Swedish Chef makes more sense than the bogans, and he speaks complete gibberish.

Hi Toni,

You concluded that 'Maybe an Australian JB Hi-Fi isn't the best place to go prowling for foreign kids ....'

And how long has it taken you to realise that ? Hope keeps springing eternal, does it ?

Well, if you try it, don't complain if it bounces back on you :)

And why are you having a go at bogans now ? As a Bankstown/Penrith bogan, I take strong offence at that.

Joe

//And how long has it taken you to realise that ? Hope keeps springing eternal, does it ?//

My, what are wit you are Joe! I shared your missive with some of the fellows at my club, and they could barely hold in their sides with the mirth thus induced. (sarcasm)

//And why are you having a go at bogans now ? As a Bankstown/Penrith bogan, I take strong offence at that.//

Because they're dicks, Joe. I'm not in favour of supporting dicks just because they are members of my tribe. I think people should be judged on the content of their character, not their place of birth, their faith, the colour of their skin etc. Which is why I dislike bogans: the content of their character is utterly contemptible, and that's putting it nicely.

Toni Lavis,
Joe did have a go at explanation but you are an empty vessel so no hope of you understanding 'irony'. Glad I haven't bothered to reply to any of your posts before.

According to the muslim supporters, the radical muslims are few and the 'moderates' are the majority. The radicals blow up people and behead them and throw gays off high buildings, but they are few.

The 'moderates' on the other hand only oppress women, commit polygamy, marry underage girls and play with FGM. They want to bring Sharia law to our shores and for that we should welcome them. They occasionally riot and call for beheadings because someone overseas makes a film about Islam and now they have found they can commit mass sex assault to get their jollies.

I don't buy that we should welcome the moderates, in fact there is a question of just how moderate are moderate muslims. Groping and raping women does not appear very moderate conduct to me.

The allow our female citizens to safely go about their business in public we need to stop all muslim immigration and refugee intake.

Toni,
I never mentioned the Rape Capital allegation, Swedish authorities. like the Australians don't colleect rape statistics which would make the perpetrators identifiable so your Swedish cousins would be as much in the dark as anyone.
The rape statistics so often misquoted come from Norway and specifically Oslo, they do however appear to be consistent with accounts given by former and serving German and Danish Police who've been plagued by their conscience and turned whistleblower.
As I said, in the absence of any information on crime and immigration and a blanket refusal by Australian authorities to investigate or even discuss the matter and in the face of blatant misinformation such as that produced by former Victorian commissioner Christine Nixon there's no reason for anyone to be optimistic about Australia's refugee program.
When Foxy talks about the positive contribution made by migrants she's combining speculation with wishful thinking and her own personal bias, sensible people who care about theirs and their children's future are skeptical, cautious and unwilling to accept the blanket assertions and blind faith of the refugee advocates.
As for the "Bogans" I'd trust their good intentions and rely on their information over the word of an educated, middle class refugee advocate any day, anyone who utters such antagonistic class slurs should be no longer heard just on that basis.
If it wasn't for my "Bogans" on Facebook I'd have never heard of the other young White man king hit in Glenelg on New Years and who's currently fighting for his life in hospital. Police are hunting six African men by the way.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/man-21-attacked-by-about-six-men-of-african-appearance-at-glenelg-during-new-years-day-celebrations/news-story/a52dafc17f73e72a90bee0102d1eb42b

Toni,
The reason I trust the word of Facebook "Bogans" and that of my daughter's "Bogan" friends along with my own "Bogan" eyes and earsas well as those of my "Bogan" acquaintances is that they actually have to deal with Lebanese, Afghan, Indian and African predators and gangs on a daily basis, unlike rich old ladies from the leafy suburbs.
The reality is that the refugee program has been a disaster for poor Whites and it's bourgeois opportunists like you who systematically try to disadvantage and marginalise "Bogans" in favour of immigrants.
Immigrant gangs go hunting White boys, they pick them off in ones and twos as they themselves are running in groups of up to 100, there are no White gangs whatsoever, they don't exist outside Hollywood fiction.

Jay,

I thought that Indians were generally peaceful and law abiding in Australia?

Is Mise,
Yeah the middle class Indians probably are, where I live we have Indian gangs though I'll concede that they mostly seem to band together for protection from the Africans and Arabs rather than offensive purposes but they do retaliate when one of their guys is attacked. A few years ago there were a series of bashings, a stabbing and a firebomb attack as Indians from Thomastown and Sudanese from Sunshine fought it out, the catalyst was an assault on an Indian guy early one morning.
The Indian gang in my suburb hang out at an internet cafe and a barber shop, they dress like stereotypical Los Angeles hoodlums, drive hotted up Commodores, have all the typical piercings,gold jewellery and tattoos.
It's all for show and the effect is quite comical, their Indian gang Molls are a sight to behold but they get their message across I suppose.

I wonder how many of the molested girls in Germany would of been the ones like the getup crowd a few months ago protesting against those 'racist' who wanted control over Germany's borders. The feminist here have not woken up but in Europe they are finally starting to get it albeit far to late. Thanks Mr Abbott for stopping the boats after Labour invited about 60000 illegals.

Knowing how keen you are on Islamic culture, Suseonline, I'm posting this link just for you:

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/cologne_cover_up/

I know it might be difficult for you to comprehend. That's a very obvious result of your "training". And it's a fine example of the difference between training and education. Not that you'd understand, I suppose.

calwest,

I don't think its a cover up just the left having egg all over their face again. Even Susie is not that stupid as to see the truth of her failed narrative.

Hi Toni,

Ah ! I get it now. The game is 'diversion': so if anybody criticises Islam for its violence, you bring in the Crusades or the Inquisition or the treatment of native Americans. If they talk about vile anti-women practices like FGM, you drag up male circumcision. At the slightest criticism of some terrorist act, talk of the demonization of entire populations. Go all relative and talk about how every group has its psychotics, as if in equal proportions.

And if possible, chuck in something tangential but irrelevant that you can get all hot and hurt over.

I think I'm getting the hang of this game :)

Thanks !

Joe

Joe,
The Gutmenschen game is easy to play, first insist on double standards to achieve "equality", when that fails and people laugh at you insist that there be no standards at all so that everyone can be equal and simply learn to live with people laughing at you every time you open your mouth.

Ah brown men are the gift that keeps on giving, first the Glenelg and Fortitude Valley attacks, now this.
Scarborough Beach, Perth, a gang of brown youths, seemingly a mix of Africans and Afghans (gee I wonder what they'd have in common) surround and bash a skinny little White kid.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/30512189/king-hit-disgrace-as-kids-brawl-at-perth-beach/

Given that the media lie about this sort of thing all the time the suggestion that "two groups" were involved means that two or three White boys and maybe their girlfriends were singled out,taunted and harassed by a group of 30 or so Muslims until a punch was thrown and the frenzied attack you see in the video occurred.
This is exactly what happened at Cronulla all those years ago, only now we all have high definition video cameras in our pockets and our beach bags so there's no denying what's going on.
Now let's watch Suse and Foxy and Toni say "Hmm, well it's hard to say what ethnic group those kids belong to, they all look White to me, maybe they're just suntanned?"

This is also relevant:
How the Feminists’ “War against Boys” Paved the Way for Islam
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1300

Hi Jay,

That second reference is to an article of more than eight years ago, but is amazingly relevant now. Perhaps feminism may undergo a re-assessment in the near future. No, perhaps not.

Some time ago, I checked out DNA studies of Iraq [stay with me, this is relevant] and was surprised to learn that women's DNA, mitochondrial DNA, in Iraq tended to be Kurdish and 'Persian', up to 80%, while Iraqi men's DNA, their Y chromosome, was overwhelmingly Arab. It didn't occur to me for a while, (being dropped on your head as a baby has lifelong consequences) that this may be a consequence of the Arab invasions, in which the men were either exterminated or enslaved (or, as we see these days, have fled) leaving the women behind.

Currently, it seems that young men are much more likely to flee from Syria than young women. So are we witnessing a dreadful replay of some of the endless Muslim and Arab atrocities across the Middle East between 650 AD and the recent past ? Atrocities which were so wide-spread that they had genetic consequences ?

Will Syria be denuded (comparatively) of Syrian men, and much of its women as well, in the coming war between Sunni and Shi'a, to be played out across Syria between the Saudis and the Iranians, a war which will grind the remaining Syrians to dust ?

[TBC]

[continued]

So of course, they flee: the numbers won't slow down. So where can those poor buggers go ? Europe, of course. But soon the walls will be up, all over Europe. An inevitable and impossible situation will soon occur.

Something like this happened during the Thirty Years' War, 1618-1648, in which entire regions of Germany were emptied. That War transformed the relations between the Catholic and Protestant churches, but at a huge human cost.

And it lasted thirty years: so is the current war in Syria and Iraq (and in Somalia, and Nigeria, and Niger, and Yemen, and Chad, and Cameroon, and Libya, and Algeria, and Afghanistan, etc.) approaching its peak, or is just starting ? If the Saudis and Iran really get stuck into each other, what will Pakistan do ? And then, what will India do ?

Both having nuclear weapons, by the way: Pakistan is very friendly with the Saudis, and India is very friendly with the Iranians.

But our dear leftist friends can console themselves that, after all, it is all a long way away, and in countries which we do not concern us much. Any such war can't ever reach here.

Can it ??

Joe,
The West Asian and African dictators are simply exporting their problem underclass northwards, all the dumbest, most violent, most criminally inclined young men are being waved past the borders and sent away for good, their home governments are now refusing to take them back.
It's a smart move on their part, if you were the leader of an African state and the Germans and Swedes offered to take all your troublesome unemployable young men, potential revolutionaries and Jihadists off your hands and support them for life would you resist or would you take the opportunity to empty out your prisons and slums?
Here's another lovely video from New years in Berlin:
http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.2352/video-migrants-celebrate-nye-in-berlin-with-guns-blazing.html
Listen closely and you can hear automatic rifles firing in the background too, so let's not hear anymore about "no go zones" being a myth, the Berlin Police were telling people not to go to those suburbs.

Jay Of Melbourne, "How the Feminists’ 'War against Boys' Paved the Way for Islam"
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1300

Well worth reading, thank you. Well found.

' Well worth reading, thank you. Well found.'

same Jay it was good reading with to much truth for the mainstream media to go near.

On the other hand, I'm confident that the feminists on this thread will be outraged by the mass gropings - one poor woman was completely stripped, and two women were raped in Koln, with men's fingers going everywhere).

Or perhaps they aren't: they could point out to us 'conservatives' that we don't understand Middle Eastern men, we're so intolerant: it's their culture, after all, and all cultures are equal, aren't they ? Who are we to judge what a thousand men do, it's probably quite okay in their minds ? Anyway, Western women are pretty much all sluts.

Joe

Take heart Grrls, the new spin is that it is all the fault of men (wouldn't you know!).

The problem is NOT Islam, but the simple fact that there are thousands of young men and men, particularly young men, are programmed to do such things. It is a 'population bomb' of young men and devastating to womyn and girls.

Always remember that Islam is the enemy of your enemy and is your friend.

There will be a backlash against this new feminist intuited fact. However, any fembot would be expecting that too and it should be dismissed as such, along with the disgusting men who ask questions, right? (um, should that be left?)

Sorry, I should have added that the 'fact-finding'(sic) ABC will be right onto that 'population bomb of young men' like a fat kid onto a pack of Smarties.

So wheel those turrets around, Grrls.

Gentlemen it began as soon as the news broke, I follow Clementine Ford on Facebook and her crew of misfits and lunatics were right on it, the mere mention of African and West Asian men committing sex crimes sent them scrambling to the archives looking for obscure, historical gang rapes committed by White men.
The tone of the replies to Clementine's post blaming Western male attitudes for the Cologne outrage was one of concern for the refugees above all other considerations. Never mind that 100% of the men interviewed over these crimes were born overseas and if molesting women is actually the German national sport then it's unlikely they learned it's nuances during their scant months in country.
But then they're in good company, the German interior minister has remarked that the people blaming immigrants for the violence are worse than the rapists themselves and the leader of the German Greens has gone full retard saying that Oktoberfest is actually the benchmark for sexist attitudes and violence against women which has been going on for years!
Well meine Herren, we've always known about the shortcomings of the Left-Liberal types, how that side of politics attracts the intellectually inferior, the moral bankrupts, the gullible and the histrionic, self loathing personalities, it's just amazing to me that they're willing to go down with their sinking ship.

What is preventing Clementine Ford from prevailing upon her editor at The Age to allow her to do a special report from Germany? Just the place for her to do another of her human headline scrawled 'Look at Moi!' #+obscenity.

The real cover-up in Germany and the other affected European countries would be that the main targets of the sexual molestations and rapes would be vulnerable 12-15 yr old school girls. Expect a further cover-up of pregnancies and STDs in children.

It is reminiscent of the horrific negative consequences of leftist & Labour Party political correctness in Rotherham and other centres in the UK. See here,

<Rotherham council ignored child abuse by Asian gangs because of 'misplaced political correctness', report concludes

Misplaced political correctness by Rotherham’s Labour led council combined with a staggering culture of denial allowed more than 1,400 vulnerable girls to be routinely abused by gangs of Asian[Pakistani] men, a withering report has concluded.

Children as young as nine were groomed, trafficked and raped by members of the town’s Pakistani community, but a desperation to avoid being labelled as racist meant councillors turned a blind eye to the appalling abuse for 16 years...

Despite the appalling revelations and victim testimonies contained in the Jay report, Ms Casey said she had been greeted by a council that was still in complete denial about the extent of the problem.

Describing the reaction she received when interviewing council members, she said: “They denied that there had been a problem, or if there had been, that it was as big as was said.

“If there was a problem they certainly were not told – it was someone else’s job. They were no worse than anyone else. They had won awards. The media were out to get them.”..>
http://tinyurl.com/nmg7oo2

Well, this time tomorrow I'll have had my throat cut. Expensive, I'm sure there a few Jihadi folk here that would have done it for free. ;-) Two cages, a plate & four screws in C4/5/6/T1.

When that's all OK then it's the lower back. S4/5/6/Sacrum. I'm in for a great year.

That's what you get for living a great life full of adventure & fun.

Hi Jayb,

Christ, that sounds painful. Take it easy and the best of luck, I hope it all goes well :)

Red wine has some amazing medicinal qualities, but you have to take it in fairly large quantities for them to kick in.

Cheers,

Joe