Dear DreamOn,

Thank You for your opinion.

There's a book worth a read (if you haven't already
read it) by Paul Collins - "Believers: Does Australian
Catholicism have a future?" with a foreword by
Geraldine Doogue.

Paul Collins is one of Australia's
most controversial and respected commentators on the
Catholic church. A graduate of Harvard Divinity
School and the Australian National University.

He's a former priest and a historian and broadcaster.
Dr Collins is also a former specialist
editor of religion for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation..
He's published many books on the subject.

Dr Collins points out that - "No one is denying that
sexual abuse of children is horrendous and intolerable and that
the failure of the Church to deal with it effectively has
done immeasurable damage to victims."

"The cover-ups, the protection of abusive clergy and the
refusal to admit egregious mistakes are unjustifiable."

Cardinal Pell is being called to account and explain.

According to Dr Collins, "Trust is going to have to be built
from the bottom up by bishops and priests before their
pronouncements on morality will be taken seriously again."

We shall have to wait and see whether the Cardinal will
set the example this time around.

"Trust is going to have to be built
from the bottom up by bishops and priests before their
pronouncements on morality will be taken seriously again."

Why would anyone take their pronouncements more seriously than anyone else’s in the first place? They only have moral authority because it is given to them by believers and some non-believers. If you give someone moral authority when you do not have to then you really cannot complain what they do with it.

Suggesting that the clergy are more responsible for their behaviour than any other person who has abused children is ridiculous. They should be tried and judged as human beings and not because they have taken some moral high ground which only applies to those who agree that they are entitled to such moral high ground.

The only ones who are outraged by the hypocrisy between what they say and what they do are those who have agreed to give them the moral authority that they claim for themselves. Those people have given up their own right to decide what is moral and what is not and handed it over to the Church. The abuse of children threatens them because it shows that clergy are only human and those who are emotionally dependent on the church do not want to have to deal with that – they want the church to be more than human because they do not trust their own capacity to discern what is right and wrong and need someone else to tell them.

Are the clergy the only people in the world who do not do what they say you should do? Politicians, business people and heads of state say one thing and do another. What is the difference except that the church has told people that it is in some way in contact with God? If you are gullible enough to believe that then your gullibility is the real problem.

People took the pronouncements of the clergy in
the past based on faith and trust. The church
represented spirituality, ethics and a meaningful
structure to guide their lives. The role of
the church and the clergy in the past was highly respected.

There is no doubt that the clerical profession has
taken a severe battering and that respect for the
priesthood is understandably at an all-time low.
Young people and their elders are rightly sceptical abo
everything the church says about sexuality. And this has
a flow-on effect with the church's entire message,
especially its challenging social justice message and
cultural critique. Trust is going to have to be
rebuilt. Whether Cardinal Pell will lead the way
remains to be seen.

*Foxy* we remain at diametrically opposed poles on this one I think.

" ... Dr Collins points out that - "No one is denying that
sexual abuse of children is horrendous and intolerable and that
the failure of the Church to deal with it effectively has
done immeasurable damage to victims."

" ... the failure of the Church to deal with it effectively ... "

I strongly object to this kind of language as it does to me represent an attempt to misdirect the focus and play things down.

Again, it is not a question of them not dealing with this effectively, but rather that they are criminals who sought, and continue to seek, to pervert the course of justice.

This is why RatSinger was going to be arrested in the UK (prosecutors included Geoffery Robertson QC )

Criminals do not get a second go *Foxy* The organisation should be black listed and their persons and their property should be seized.

And they are fakes *Foxy* and historically they were complicit in the genocidal atrocities committed in this country. Like a South African Church.

Is this what you mean by "respected?"

Dear DreamOn,

O am not an expert on the Catholic Church.
However Dr Paul Collins is.
He states that Catholicism has remarkable staying
power, an ability to survive unmatched by any
contemporary institution. Collins says that
"if you've been around for more than 2000 yea
will have learned a few tricks."

He goes on to explain that "Catholicism has survived
precisely because ultimately it is adaptable and
able to change. Often this change comes late in the
piece when everything seems to be in dire straits and
it may well emerge from the most unexpected source."

The other thing in the Church's favour is that the
Australian church is just the right size. Collins
tells us that it is "Not too small so that it becomes
incestuous or destroys itself in in-fighting, not too
large so that it becomes impossible to change.

Collins is optimistic that Catholicism in Australia will
survive, certainly with lesser numbers, but he feels
that it will have "more commitment and ministerial energy."
But to achieve that according to Collins - "Catholics
will require genuine local leadership and a willingness
to confront both the difficulties and opportunities that
the church faces." Dr Collins feel that we are uniquely
placed in Australia to be able to do precisely that.

Time will tell.