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Rock bottom : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 27/11/2015

I can only conclude that the guise of intellectual openness and truth-seeking boasted of in academe is often a sham, overrun by shear prejudice and wilful blindness.

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An excellent article. Deserves to be read and thought about.
Posted by calwest, Friday, 27 November 2015 8:20:14 AM
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Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the most intellectually and wilfully disingenuous, self appointed judge of them all?

Judge not and ye shall not be judged! Get a life of your own sells!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 27 November 2015 8:30:31 AM
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Pretty much all of us have faith in something, but not necessarily some magical or supernatural Thing. Karl Popper points out the futility of trying to differentiate those who have from those who don't - we all, pretty much, have both a pragmatic and empirical approach to the real day-to-day world, AND unvalidated, unvalidatable, hopes and dreams about its possibilities.

In his own case, he pointed to his faith in reason, and perhaps in (on balance) a confidence in the future. In that vein, he hoped that, in piecemeal fashion, socialism and liberalism could be brought close enough together to create a uneasily working relationship. [Or perhaps that's just my take on his aspirations.]

Not to have faith in anything, or not to strive to find something to have faith in, smells of an adolescent tendency to cop out, curse the evil world and all its uncertainties, and get back on the teat: gutlessness, in the name of deep analysis, or deconstruction.

So how can we teach young people how to think again ? How to deconstruct deconstruction, if you like ? How to see through bullxt ? How to avoid the nihilism of their whingey cop-out teachers, and think for themselves, give up Twittering, step back into the dangerous, uncertain world, and make a difference ?

I'm sorry, have I offended anyone ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 27 November 2015 9:22:05 AM
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'So how can we teach young people how to think again ?'

stop allowing only tax payer money for group think. Whether it is feminism, homosexuality, gw, Indigeneous affairs, dv all you need to do is be a parrot. Our national broadcasters and universities are the worst offenders. Anyone see those fools on the Drum last night. Yeah more money will improve education, dv, aboriginal affairs. Can't these mindless people see that the more money that has been wasted for the last 50 years the worse problems have become in all these areas. The useless slogans used by regressives make Abbott look like a genius.
Posted by runner, Friday, 27 November 2015 9:38:01 AM
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It has been suggested that no one who appreciates sausage or law should ever see either of them being made. The same is true for religion. Early Christianity was riven by controversy. One source of controversy was the nature of Jesus. Philip Jenkins, professor at Penn State and Baylor, has written "The Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 years." Eventually the definition of Jesus adopted at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 won out. It won out because its supporters were able to mass the most power.

Harvey Cox, Professor of Divinity at Harvard, wrote:

"...Jenkins has revealed that doctrines and creeds do not drop from heaven but emerge in the blood and tumult of actual history."

That is also true of Peter Sellick's branch of Christianity. The founder of that denomination was a bloody-minded king with a penchant for having people beheaded. He founded a new branch of Christianity because he could not get a Catholic divorce or annulment.

Superstition backed with spears, arrows, guns and/or bombs becomes religious doctrine.

Sellick writes: "I can only conclude that the guise of intellectual openness and truth-seeking boasted of in academe is often a sham, overrun by shear prejudice and wilful blindness."

The word in the above quote should be 'sheer' not 'shear.' There is truth in what Peter wrote. However, he should apply that same critical intellect to his own field.
Posted by david f, Friday, 27 November 2015 11:07:08 AM
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Poor Sells, he keeps on flogging a very dead horse, despite the over-whelming evidence that there is no truth whatsoever in any of his propositions, including the naive (materialist) proposition that there is something called objective "truth" or "reality".
http://www.aboutadidam.org/nature_of_reality/subjective.html
This site introduces a radically different Understanding of Real God
http://www.realgod.org
This site introduces a much more nuanced Understanding of the role/function of religion in the public square. And why esoteric Spiritual religion seldom, if ever, enters the picture in the usual "debates" about the nature of Reality - it is taboo both within the academy and most, if not all, "theology" and "divinity" schools or seminaries.
http://www.firmstand.org/articles/separation_of_church_and_state.html
This reference provides a critical Understanding of the limitations of mainstream institutional exoteric Christianity
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/davidtoddunderstandingjesus.html
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 27 November 2015 11:49:35 AM
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Hi David f,

Isn't it fun to flog the past ? Perhaps we should dig up Henry VIII and kick his bones all over the cemetery ? That'll show 'em.

Yes, superstition is a curse in the 21st century: let's you and me both condemn every beheading and rape and enslaving we come across. Are you with me ?

Hi Daffy,

I kicked my toe on a lounge chair the other day. Yes, there is 'reality' and it bloody hurt. And my 'objective truth' still hurts.

Let's move on. There is religion, and there's reason, science, as near to truth as we can get. Let people believe what they like, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. After all, they have a purpose too, to make you and me feel superior.

Yes, let's both condemn all idiotic religions, especially those that have no problem condoning the most barbaric actions in the name of their made-up god. Those religions which exhort us to love one another even if we are not believers or from the same ethnic group, are, by comparison, a quantum leap forward. Isn't that so ?

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 27 November 2015 1:45:39 PM
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Dear Peter,

"The seeing through of religion has been a profound movement that cannot be simply dismissed."

It CAN be dismissed and if you are a Christian, then Jesus has shown you the way:

"If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."

[Matthew 5:29-30]

So if your mind causes you to stumble - then stop thinking, or better count sheep; and if your ear makes you listen to Feuerbach et al. then cut it off or at least fill it with wax.

Religion is not dead, it's your faith that has weakened.
You may have hit rock bottom personally as we all do at times, so some time-off in a monastery is in order, away from books and intellectual pursuits. Doing physical work and constantly chanting to God can do wonders to replenish your soul.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 27 November 2015 1:49:17 PM
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Dear Loudmouth,

You wrote: “Yes, let's both condemn all idiotic religions, especially those that have no problem condoning the most barbaric actions in the name of their made-up god. Those religions which exhort us to love one another even if we are not believers or from the same ethnic group, are, by comparison, a quantum leap forward. Isn't that so ?”

A religion that has no problem condoning the most barbaric actions in the name of their made-up god may also exhort us to love one another even if we are not believers or from the same ethnic group. Religions are not consistent within themselves.
Posted by david f, Friday, 27 November 2015 2:27:13 PM
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Thank you David F for your response,

Can you cite any religion that does that ? Which 'condones the most barbaric actions in the name of their made-up god' AND 'exhorts us to love one another even if we are not believers or from the same ethnic group' ?

As an atheist, I'm no expert on religions, it all seems so unnecessary to me. Desirable (who wouldn't want to live forever, and fall over themselves licking every orifice of a god who could guarantee them that) but simply not likely.

But, down here on the ground, back on Earth, there aren't many religions which make room for the Good Samaritan, someone who helps someone else from a different ethnic group, race or language group, or different religion.

I'll agree that Christians don't often abide by this direction, but it's there, and I don't think that it's in any other body of religious dictums. Buddhism ? Maybe. Hinduism ? No, not even for their own who are afflicted, that's just their karma. Islam ? You're kidding :) it must be one of the most parochial, narrow, self-focussed, up-itself, stuff any non-believers, religions ever conceived by man.

But thanks anyway for raising the issue.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 27 November 2015 3:37:39 PM
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David f will always come across contradictory as he has no moral base to draw upon. Certainly people who claim order came from chaos and that we evolved from apes show they are not fit to make any useful moral judgements.
Posted by runner, Friday, 27 November 2015 3:44:11 PM
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G'day Runner,

Many of us have not the slightest problem in believing that we come from the same ancestors that apes and monkeys have, it's not an issue any more. Just look at us. I always thought my grandfather looked like a gorilla [god, that sounds horrible, but I really loved him], and always tear up when I see a gorilla on TV. I love gorillas.

It shouldn't be any real problem for you - your god has surely lived for billions of years - forever, actually - so in all that time, from your point of view, he's dabbled with amoeba, fish, mosquitoes, dinosaurs, apes and eventually - well, why not, give it a go ? - he's come up with us.

He or she (or it) is probably not all that happy with what has evolved from then onwards, but he's stuck with it. It's up to us to show him/her/it that it wasn't a complete waste of time: that we CAN BE decent, loving, sharing beings, capable of amazing sacrifices for our fellow human beings.

Good on you, Runner, keep going !

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 27 November 2015 4:49:53 PM
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Loud mouth wrote: “Can you cite any religion that does that ? Which 'condones the most barbaric actions in the name of their made-up god' AND 'exhorts us to love one another even if we are not believers or from the same ethnic group' ?”

Mark 12:31 (KJV) You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Jesus was repeating the words of the Jewish Bible. He was a Jew and not a Christian.

From Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus makes it plain a little later on that this applies not just to one’s neighbour but to one who is a stranger.

Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Later on the Book of Joshua God advocates genocide.

Joshua 6:20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

The bloody record of Christianity, not just killing pagans, heretics and Jews, but their fellow Christians in the Wars of the Reformation, the Albigensian Crusade and other exercises in killing is part of history.

In a previous post I mentioned the slaughter of Christians by Christians in the fifth century.

continued
Posted by david f, Friday, 27 November 2015 4:53:01 PM
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continued

Recent events have featured Muslim atrocities, but Islam also talks about love.

http://www.al-islam.org/perspectives-concept-love-islam-mahnaz-heydarpoor/human-love#human-love-fellow-humans is a Muslim site which contains:

“On the necessity of love for people, we see that the Qur'an praises those members of the Household of the Prophet who fasted three days and gave everyday the only little food that they had at home successively to a poor, an orphan, and a captive: "And they give food out of love for Him to the poor and the orphan and the captive. [They tell them:]we only feed you for God's sake: we desire from you neither reward nor thanks."(76:8 & 9)

There is a well known hadith narrated in different sources that the Prophet said: "People are all God's family, so the dearest people to Him are those who benefit His family the most." 19

According to a hadith and similar to what is mentioned in the New Testament (Matt. 25:31 46), on the Day of Judgement God will ask some people why they would not have visited Him when He was sick, why they would not have fed Him when He was hungry and why they would not have given water to Him when He was thirsty. Those people will ask: How could these have happened, while you are the Lord of all the world? Then God will. reply: So and so was sick and you did not visit him, so and so was hungry and you did not feed him and so and so was thirsty and you did not give water to him. Did not you know that if you did so you would find Me with him?”

John Ferguson wrote “War and Peace in the World's Religions.” He examined 15 religions. They all talked about love, but they all also sometimes practiced hate.
Posted by david f, Friday, 27 November 2015 4:55:46 PM
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.

Dear Peter,

.

You wrote :

« C S Lewis said … Harry Walton … believes that he has seen through everything and lives at rock bottom »

to which you add the somewhat acerbic personal comment :

« Faith is accounted as immaturity. Welcome to a world of bottom dwellers »
.

I think you are referring to religious faith, which I consider to be blind faith, i.e., belief in something of which there is no material evidence, no circumstantial evidence and no credible eye witness (the general term, "faith", being defined as belief in something of which there is no material evidence, only circumstantial evidence or a credible eye witness, or both).

I don’t think religious (blind) faith is accounted as immaturity as you indicate, but rather as a simple proposition that everyone is free to adopt or reject according to one's personal disposition.

Both options are perfectly respectable.

Some people feel the need for such belief, others don’t.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 28 November 2015 4:11:17 AM
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Once again we see how the bar is lowered for commentators here who espouse the Christian cause. And once again Peter tells us all at length and in detail what 'we' feel and 'we' do, without feeling the necessity for providing any kind of evidential support.

I can only conclude that Peter must have a mouse in his pocket, because most of 'us' -- meaning twenty-first century humanity -- are quite happy, healthy and fully functional without the constraints of this particular superstition. It's an old religious tactic to identify an imaginary malaise in order to spruik an imaginary solution. No wonder Peter is upset at how poorly it works these days.
Posted by Jon J, Saturday, 28 November 2015 7:00:20 AM
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YOur faith is amazing Loudmouth, just don't call it science. Thats exactly why we have so many fooled into believing the gw rubbish.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 28 November 2015 11:36:15 AM
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calwest, agreed, our anti-social, anti-community universities are the worst in world history & are in desperate need of reform.

Rhosty, sorry but Jesus teaching was about the application of punishment on sinners, not whether you must agree with them.

Loudmouth, sounds nice in theory when you say it fast but socialism has a well documented, scientifically proven track record over half a century of being antisocial. It is in fact pure devil worship & NO Australian child will be safe until every communist is deported, jailed or dead.

runner, correct again, cut funding to government schools, colleges & universities ASAP, hand them over to our Christian Churches to run.

david f, wrong again & blinded by atheistic, left wing religion as usual.

Daffy Duck, the brain washed, loyal member of the radical, extreme, left wing religious cult displays his wilful ignorance yet again, with his day is night & night is day dogma. I do pity you darling, your willing foolishness is breathtaking.
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Saturday, 28 November 2015 12:13:08 PM
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Hi David F.,

Apart from all the appeals to authority, and the winkling out of the odd quote, one has to wonder why you have to go back hundreds, thousands of years, to find atrocities in other societies comparable to those of ISIS. i.e. ISIS in 2015.

The Enlightenment has been slowly and painfully developed over the past five hundred years, particularly the last one or two hundred, with its focus on equality of all humans, compassion for the oppressed, the rule of law for all, the scientific method, reward for effort, striving towards an open society - all imperfectly worked out and implemented, but inexorably reaching more and more people and seeping, as it were, into their everyday ideologies: that's us with all our aspirations and mis-steps, which would be impossible to even contemplate under the dead hand of priests and imams.

But then there is the Counter-Enlightenment, back-tracking, a tacit harking back to the past, and as well, distortions and misuse of what humans have achieved over those few hundred years - as if every advance is countered by some perversion of itself.

Then there are the various Utopian ideologies of the counter-Enlightenment, which inevitably move towards fascism: the perfect as the enemy of the good, as Voltaire says. I now believe that Marx was in this category, as Popper 'deconstructed' his ideology.

There never will be perfection, and probably every advance can be misused or reacted against. But hopefully, we move forward, in baby steps.

I think that's what Popper was on about, incremental improvements in people's lives and the amelioration of their condition. From this point of view, there is something 'Utopian', in the worst sense of the word, in Mill's 'greatest happiness for the greatest number', with its implied abandonment of the 'least': Popper turns that on its head, that what we should be trying to do is more a matter of overcoming and eliminating evils rather than creating perfections.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 28 November 2015 1:10:36 PM
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Dear Loudmouth,

I don’t have to go back thousands of years, to find atrocities in other societies comparable to those of ISIS.

You asked me to provide examples for my statement that religions speak of love and act hatefully. Due to the influence of the Enlightenment in western society religion in those societies has been largely tamed as they have been in some other societies.

The Holocaust, the genocides in Rwanda-Burundi, The 1965-6 mass killings in Indonesia, the American-Filipino War, Mussolini’s invasion of Ethiopia and the estimated 65,000,000 Chinese killed in the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are examples of great atrocities in recent history comparable to those committed by Isis. However, I didn’t mention them since I was restricting my examples to those that were closely related to religion, and the secular state has done a good job in defanging religion.

I have also read Popper, and I agree with his preference for what he called piecemeal social engineering. You try a small change. If it doesn’t work you go back to the drawing board. If it does work then you try another small change in the same direction and see what happens. I prefer that to the undemocratic, utopian ideologies which mandate immediate great change.

I agree it is more reasonable to make small improvements than to aim for perfection.

Dear imacentristmoderate,

You wrote, “david f, wrong again & blinded by atheistic, left wing religion as usual.”

Immoderate name-calling is not reasonable argument.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 28 November 2015 3:44:49 PM
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Runner I have come to the conclusion you are seriously mentally disturbed and therefore I will be gentle so I don't tip you over the edge.

You keep referring to Global Warming and your stance relates to an inability to rationally understand science (peer reviewed science that is) and as such your "faith" has illogically drawn your mindset into a stance which blinds you to an alternate logic, in line with Sells irrational conclusions.

Perhaps you could attempt to read the entire contents of the following without your blinkers on and get back to me, here it is http://www.nature.com/articles/srep16784

Additionally, while you are at it perhaps you could also read the following which might help you to explain what is wrong with your rigid and unwavering reliance on belief of "your" Sky pilot syndrome, and yes it's pretty old but I think holds true in relation to your continuous irrational statements on OLO,
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/meno.html
Cheers Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Saturday, 28 November 2015 6:03:55 PM
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Just because I quote from an ancient tomb, just doesn't infer or imply that I agree with the premise of the saying/expression!

But in the case of folks who purport to stand in God's or Jesus shoes, and speak for either with all the authority of a virtual GOd, need to take a look in the mirror to see who they are and the very real limits of their claimed authority?

I say therefore,judge not and you shall not be judged.

In any event who gave Sells or any of his contempories, the right to decide what anyone can do?

The only real judge is indeed the man in the mirror, then only where it applies exclusively to our own behavior!

If only we all would own our own behavior/actions, the world would be a place we could all peacefully share!

I'm reminded that the fourteen commandments were carved on tablets of stone, by an all seeing all knowing God, in a language 99% of the target populace couldn't read, and with all such so called holy writing, needed to be interpreted by a few men who claimed the moral authority to know the mind of God.

As for those tablets of stone, if the Myth of the exodus is finally exposed as myth, fable,fairy tale, or just plain fraud, and the emerging irrefutable archaeological evidence is pointing that way? What happens to all those stories that rely on it actually being true?

Please make sure you understand what I'm actually saying before you start putting words in my mouth or translating what I'm saying or meaning!

I'm just like J.C. purported to be, a very plain speaking man given to candor, not riddles someone needs to interpret to confer a brand new never ever intended meaning!
Rhrosty
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 29 November 2015 8:23:59 AM
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Geoff in Perth

if 'peer reviewed'science says that out of chaos came order then it shows how dumb some scientist really are. The manipilation of data is also not science and would not be needed if man made gw was a fact. Fraud abounds. If being rational in your mind is mentally disturbed so be it. Just don't be arrogrant enough to admit that many of the great scientist in history have been creationist, something that does not seem to fit your pig headed narrative. The gw alarmist have learned their tactics from evolutionist who mock and ridicule but have no substance behind them.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 29 November 2015 9:57:55 AM
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Hi David F.,

Yes, the Enlightenment process is like a path with side-tracks at every step - every innovative idea can be distorted and perverted, so it's often a matter of one step forward, two steps back.

As for piecemeal amelioration, slow and boring as it must sound to our impatient great-grandchildren, there is some wonderful stuff written by Richard Elmore, on policy implementation and its pitfalls. The usual bureaucratic notion is that you assemble a group of really, really expert experts, they seriously deliberate, deep and wise, and come up with a policy prescription, after which everybody can go home, it's all cut-and-dried. No, says Elmore, that's when the problems start. He advocates what he calls bottom-up policy implementation, not top-down policy formulation. After all, Murphy's Law.

Wildavsky also wrote a brilliant book on that Implementation to show how arse-up everything could go. Especially in the field of social policy, where there are so many uncontrollable factors, the process of implementation has to be very closely watched - that's where the policy work really starts - in a constant, reiterative process of modifying and re-assessing policy.

The point of this is to show that there are no sure-fire, shazam ! moments in the Enlightenment process, there are always wrong ways to go, and we keep finding them.

Thanks again, David,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 29 November 2015 11:27:13 AM
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Hi Runner, sorry it has taken me so long to respond. Due to science I understand the planet is round, and rotates around the sun. Due to these scientific facts it means I am on a different time zone to you, and thus I get up after you, by about 2 or 3 hours.

Now I know you won't understand this because you believe the world is flat and only about 6000 years old. I can't explain how it all works in the limited space available here.

You stated some scientists were or are creationists, true, they use their rational brain to do science and rely (because there is absolutely no proof) on blind faith in a "creator" which does not mean their science is somehow wrong.

Science is tested by many means and is often corrected over time, faith is just that, faith. There is no rational side to it, mainly built on guilt, fear, ignorance, power and control. If you want to spend your life living according to some made up deity, well that's up to you, but that does not give you the right to attack people who understand a field which has, fortunately for you, benefits from the discoveries they create.

Your use of a computer and any and all benefits science has created over history makes you the ultimate hypocrite, what has religion provided other than blind faith, oh that's right, fear, repression, exploitation, hatred, slavery, torture, murder and division of people's across the world. You just conveniently ignore this don't you!

Talk about a race to the bottom, no wonder people see the church and all that religion represents for what it really is, nothing useful for those of a rational mind.

Keep ranting, your hatred defines you and your religious faith ensures no enlightenment for you is possible. Sad.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Sunday, 29 November 2015 12:20:33 PM
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Hi Geoff of Perth,

If the earth was round, and went around the sun which stood still, [when we can all see the sun coming up in the morning and going down at night, so it obviously moves], how would you explain God's stopping of the sun so that Joshua had 36 hours of daylight to slaughter his enemies ?! How else could that be explained ?

I love 'well, how else ... ' arguments :)

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 29 November 2015 12:46:58 PM
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Hi Loudmouth, yes I agree, arguing is such fun.

Joshua and his 36 hours, like Runner, are just confused and obviously irrational, unfortunately they just didn't and don't seem to care!

Too bad, so sad.

Cheers Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Sunday, 29 November 2015 1:53:35 PM
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Loudmouth,

further to my last, if "God" did give Joshua his 36 hours we rational people know, based on science the atmosphere would collapse and the sudden exposure to deadly radiation would certainly kill his enemies, but unfortunately also Joshua and every other living thing on the planet. "Believers" of course don't think about these facts and therefore the good old book is true and we non believers are obviously ignorant, go figure.

Religion is like Archaeology, take the Pyramids of Giza as an example. Archaeologists tell us, with little real evidence of support, that the Pyramids were built using wooden and bronze tools, they used earth ramps to move the blocks into place (all 1 million of them) and that is what we are expected to believe. Then there is the other camp, engineers, geologists etc who have show conclusively the Sphinx has water erosion which could only have occurred over a huge period of time, circa 7 to 12 thousand years, the so called sarcophagus in the great pyramid clearly shows it was hollowed out (it's solid granite) using ultra sonic drilling beyond our current abilities today. If earth mounds were used to move the blocks, the earth mounds would have been bigger than the pyramids themselves.

Like the blind faith in religion and its texts, Egyptology should also alert us to the dangers of "just believing" I for one like evidence and the safety of constantly reviewing the facts. You can't do this with people who have been indoctrinated into religion, their faith does not allow it.

Cheers Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Sunday, 29 November 2015 2:28:48 PM
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Geoff of Perth. If runner has problems, they are minimal compared to yours.
You seriously put forward the ridiculous article about the “hiatus” by a closed- minded climate fraud promoter, who refers to those who have a sensible factual outlook as “contrarians”.

You are in a bad way, Geoff.. Global warming stopped in 1997, at the very time when the fraud promoters said it would be continued by the proportion of CO2 in the atmosphere. The science on the effect of CO2 in the atmosphere needs rethinking. Murry Salby is most likely right. The temperature governs the proportion of CO2 in the atmosphere, it is not the CO2 which governs the temperature. We know that warming precedes the increase in CO2, so it makes sense. The agw fraud promoters have to suppress sense, at all costs, so Salby was severely punished by Macquarie University, which is infested by fraud promoters.
How about having a bit of sense, Geoff? Before you tip over the edge.
Posted by Leo Lane, Sunday, 29 November 2015 3:05:06 PM
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Geoff of Perth on Saturday, 28 November 2015 6:03:55 PM referred to runner as mentally disturbed. That is bad form. We do not know each other personally on this forum and we disagree greatly. However, we all are human and deserve respect. One can disagree with runner and find his positions unsustainable. However, one should argue with what he says not make judgments on his mental condition. I am not a fan of runner's opinions, but he is a human being. All human beings should be entitled to respect and courtesy.
Posted by david f, Sunday, 29 November 2015 5:06:09 PM
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David f, anyone who is happy to take advantage of all of sciences benefits, yet rejects science outright, as a Runner continually does, in my opinion, obviously has a mental problem, I am not stating he is mad, I am stating his mental reasoning is flawed.

What I stated was not meant in a derogatory way, it is pretty obvious it is a fact. I am a realist and this is why I stated it the way I did.

I stand by what I said previously.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Sunday, 29 November 2015 6:38:28 PM
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' David f, anyone who is happy to take advantage of all of sciences benefits'

what a joke you are Geoff from Perth. You are happy enough to use the air and water given to you by your Creator but are so full of yourself you can't bear to give Him any thanks. The true scientist arte simply uncovering the laws made by the Lawmaker. Even you are smart enough to understand that. You obviously are happy to take advantage of all the blessing bestowed upon you despite your obvious corrupt nature.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 29 November 2015 9:22:52 PM
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Dear Geoff of Perth,

You claim to be a realist. Do you think it realistic to expect a person you refer to as mentally disturbed to heed you when you suggest things for him to read?

You didn't mean it in a derogatory way? Think about that. Is it realistic to expect a person to take it in any other way?
Posted by david f, Sunday, 29 November 2015 10:44:57 PM
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david f, i disagree, runner & i along with many other conservatives, christians know that leftism is a mental illness. ALL leftists must be placed in secure facilities for the criminally insane, ASAP.
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Monday, 30 November 2015 6:16:10 AM
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Personally imacentristmoderate I don't consider it appropiate to make light of anyone with mental illnesses. I have relatives with down syndrome and find them to be very refreshing as people. I appreciate your sentiments david f and also believe all humans deserve dignity despite belief systems. We all (in my opinion) come from the same source. This dignity should be extended to the most vulnerable being the elderly, disabled and unborn.
Posted by runner, Monday, 30 November 2015 9:44:45 AM
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Hi Runner,

I must apologise to you for my cheap shot above. it's been nagging at me for days, so maybe even an atheist has a conscience !

We are all pragmatic enough to have notions of how the world works from day to day, and it's very likely that we share those practical notions with all sorts of other people. On the other hand, our beliefs, what we have faith in, are more likely in a post-enlightenment country like Australia to be private, individual and at least as deeply held.

So we can argue over ideas, attitudes, points of view and stances that we purport to share common interests in, but we might as well leave the private beliefs alone: we tend to hold those unstated or unspoken beliefs, faiths if you like, long-held, even to the point of taking them for granted, so there is not much to be gained by criticism.

How the world should be, or criticism of how it is - that's a different matter: we can all get our teeth into those issues and, if the cyberspace was somehow in 3-D, perhaps one day, into each other :)

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 30 November 2015 11:31:09 AM
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Hi Loudmouth

no offense taken. I dish out as much as I get (shows I don't always follow my conscience).

Strangely enough I doubt anyone ever has tried to defend the miraculous on a scientific basis. You yourself must know that the 'big bang theory'is about as scientific as the sun being halted. In fact it would take far more faith to believe in the big bang than the sun being halted by a supernatural being.

You seem to be a very rational thinker and I would agree with much of what you say on a range of topics. When it comes to design needing a Designer. laws needing a Lawgiver, creation needing a Creator we obviuosly disagree. Cheers
Posted by runner, Monday, 30 November 2015 11:41:50 AM
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Hi Runner,

I haven't believed in the One Big Bang Theory for a while - rather, that there have been perhaps (and how could anybody prove it?) an infinite number of Big Bangs, all to do with the in-and-out of the Universe, perhaps tens of billions of years each time, expanding and then contracting back to a single point, and then another -BOOM- ! out it goes again, for another few billion years.

If this is so, and if there is a God, then he/she/it certainly must move in mysterious ways. Either way, it's probably unprovable, so it's a matter of belief without evidence. Chacun a son gout :)

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 30 November 2015 12:14:28 PM
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Theology has been surpassed and surplanted
Posted by McReal, Tuesday, 1 December 2015 11:17:30 AM
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