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The Forum > Article Comments > The NUS and the transgenderism debate that wasn't > Comments

The NUS and the transgenderism debate that wasn't : Comments

By Mal Fletcher, published 3/11/2015

Might a perceived rise in the popularity of gender realignment among children be due to the fact that parents are confused about how gender identity emerges in the first place?

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Debate about sex and gender issues is fast becoming the taboo area of human society. Once there was no discussion then there was a lot and now for different reasons altogether there is an attempt to silence all debate again.

Could this be that for most people any discussion triggers doubts they have about their own attitudes to sex and gender? They do not want to explore that area of their humanity because they may find things about themselves that are too painful to look at. A culture develops which says I will not question your sexual behaviour if you do not question mine.

Not every behaviour that people indulge in is in their own best interest. Often such behaviour is an attempt to meet emotional needs in ways that can never satisfy. Alcoholism, drug taking, gambling, work addiction and such behaviours are often substitutes for emotional satisfaction. Probably the most common way of ‘acting out’ is in the area of sexuality. This could well be because it is mainly done in private where there is not too much danger of being censured or ridiculed.

It is easy to say what does it matter to anyone else what people do in private but it does matter because if those people are not emotionally satisfied then there are repercussions for all those with whom they live and work. If they are in positions of power then it can have far-reaching consequences.

If we refuse to have frank discussions about such behaviour then those who are stuck in a hole have no hope. Without being challenged they become isolated and this is the very thing they are trying to avoid. It may be painful to hear things they do not want to hear but it is less painful than total isolation. It may also be painful for some of us to allow discussion on these topics but burying our head in the sand is no answer.
Posted by phanto, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 10:23:40 AM
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Well the message this new pope is sending out doesn't help much.
Posted by sophies choice, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 11:18:20 AM
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Is this new (to the general public) term Transgender just part of the gay rights, same sex, campaign cuming through the backdoor?
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 11:44:36 AM
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I believe we're approaching this from the wrong direction!

If a male person feels he's a female and wants an operation to completely change his physical aspects, only to find this just increases the physiological problems; then it's getting ass about!

What we can and should do is rewire the area causing the misaligned gender orientation so that it then fits the visible Male biology for a whole male; and or, female biology for a whole female?

And only on their request for gender reassignment and then only as a proffered option?

If an accident can do this but in reverse and seamlessly, then given we know how to do it with a couple of implanted electrodes that simply burn out the inappropiate wiring at the lower back of the brain? And it is a truism that the brain can feel no pain and you could be conscious?

[And this has already been applied in scotland in the seventies, by a court order to reassign a pedophile, to in effect, turn him into a normal hetrosexual male, who's since married, had a couple of kids and on the latest reports, had never ever been happier or more fulfilled!]

Then we should offer to others? And not to be confused by quite deliberate obfuscation, with shock or so called aversion therapy; which simply doesn't work and or, causes more problems.

This stuff isn't felt or more than a mere tickle; given all you need are tiny voltages, and the electrodes precisely placed. All doable with the help of an attending radiologist and very low rad cat scan?

Almost the same as if a lumber puncture needle was being precisely placed for the purpose of a myelogram?
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 12:02:04 PM
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It takes all sorts. Usually the public don't mind. After expressing some natural curiosity most people would accept the person. There are practical solutions to the mundane things such as toilets.

Any problems are because the usual suspects, feminists and Gay Pride activists, are about their secondary gain and are stirring, so what else is new?

I don't believe that parents are 'confused', but some would like to make it so. For example, gay and feminist activism affecting education policy.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 12:11:43 PM
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the article was cleverly worded to avoid upsetting the PC Thought police.

phanto, sophies choice, plantagenet, Rhosty, onthebeach, well said, but surely the most important issue to discuss is the negative messages children receive from birth, from the Arts, Entertainment, Media & Education industries that tell children they may indeed be abnormal & needing surgery?
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 12:47:33 PM
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the only thing feminist/gays are not confused about is not allowing free speach. Nothing is allowed to spoil their narrative.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 12:51:02 PM
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All a bit sad really, two changes have happened, one when a child is born trans gendered doctors use to decide what sex the child should be. This could often could end up being at odds with the gender the child actual felt they were as they got older. so now they let them grow up and decide for themselves.

The other is the recognition that sexual identity isn't as simple as your a Man or a Women.

What we are seeing just recently is a little hysterical reaction from the right because anything that doesn't fit their 1950 worldviews is wrong. The fact that some one like Greer can be a bigot to has got them foaming at the mouth.

So the NUS has found out that Greer is a bigot and doesn't want her to talk at its function, so what!
Posted by Cobber the hound, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 2:35:27 PM
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What constitutes femaleness? It is my considered position that femaleness is conferred by the final pair of XX chromosomes. Otherwise I don't know what it is.
-- Germaine Greer

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.
Posted by Zoe Brain, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 3:33:58 PM
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I'm not really sure exactly what this author was trying to say, other than advocating for freedom of speech.

However, I did not agree that there may be many teenagers out there over the years who were really not sure if they were born male or female, or that it was in any way 'normal' for teenagers to feel this way.
Certainly, it never occurred to me growing up, that I might be attracted to females or that I might want to become male. No one could have made me feel different simply by informing me what transgender or gay people felt or did in their lives.

It would be like someone giving a lecture about the different life a congenitally blind person might lead, and everyone in that lecture rushed out to become blind in some way, because they thought they might like it. The mere thought is madness!

I believe we will find a genetic link to homosexuality and transgenderism one day, because I have no doubt whatsoever that you would need to be born that way, because surely you wouldn't choose that lifestyle if you had to live amongst so many homophobes, bigots and just plain nasty people who will never accept them as just another form of 'normal' people.
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 10:18:14 PM
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' I believe we will find a genetic link to homosexuality and transgenderism one day, because I have no doubt whatsoever that you would need to be born that way, because surely you wouldn't choose that lifestyle if you had to live amongst so many homophobes, bigots and just plain nasty people who will never accept them as just another form of 'normal' people.'

well Susie plenty of people living normally despite many feminist like yourself in world. The hatred demonstrated by feminist/homosexuals who are often nastier than most has nothing to do with genetics.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 10:33:31 PM
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No Runner, I really believe I was born with a natural dislike of the views of people like you....
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 3 November 2015 10:57:22 PM
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Cobber the hound, but surely the most important issue to discuss is the negative messages children receive from birth, from the Arts, Entertainment, Media & Education industries that tell children they may indeed be abnormal & needing surgery?

one left wing bigot outs another left wing bigot because they are both bigots who agree most of the time but do disagree on one issue & therefore can't talk to each other, OH the irony, "think of the children" who they DO want to abuse one way or another.

Zoe Brain, genetic abnormalities & birth defects have been with us for thousands of years, turning these people into reality TV stars so that antisocialists can justify their sexual perversions, instead of giving them some privacy is hardly a positive contribution too humanity.

Suseonline, but surely the most important issue to discuss is the negative messages children receive from birth, from the Arts, Entertainment, Media & Education industries that tell children they may indeed be abnormal & needing surgery?

Suseonline again, genetic abnormalities & birth defects have been with us for thousands of years, turning these people into reality TV stars so that antisocialists can justify their sexual perversions, instead of giving them some privacy is hardly a positive contribution too humanity. why are you so desperate to promote child abuse?
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 5:13:00 AM
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imacentristmoderate, you and Runner are getting hysterical again.
When others disagree with your views you resort to wild accusations.

Can you give me one example where anyone from the Arts, Entertainment, Media & Education industries has told children they may indeed be abnormal & needing surgery?

I will need written proof please.
And not from from any mad religious or homophobic publication either...a reputable source.
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 9:59:47 AM
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Suseonline,

You are forever demanding proof which you then make a point of declaring you have not read since it might disagree with you. However, you yourself religiously refuse to provide any independent evidence to support your world views and opinions. - All fait accomplis apparently and 'nothing will ever change your (steel trap) mind'. Apparently 'Suseonline says' is enough where your own views are concerned.

For others,

<Greater Exposure to Sexual Content in Popular Movies Predicts Earlier Sexual Debut and Increased Sexual Risk Taking
Ross E. O’Hara,1 Frederick X. Gibbons,1 Meg Gerrard,2 Zhigang Li,3 and James D. Sargent4

Abstract
Early sexual debut is associated with risky sexual behavior and an increased risk of unplanned pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections later in life. The relations among early movie sexual exposure (MSE), sexual debut, and risky sexual behavior in adulthood (i.e., multiple sexual partners and inconsistent condom use) were examined in a longitudinal study of U.S. adolescents. MSE was measured using the Beach method, a comprehensive procedure for media content coding. Controlling for characteristics of adolescents and their families, analyses showed that MSE predicted age of sexual debut, both directly and indirectly through changes in sensation seeking. MSE also predicted engagement in risky sexual behaviors both directly and indirectly via early sexual debut. These results suggest that MSE may promote sexual risk taking both by modifying sexual behavior and by accelerating the normal rise in sensation seeking during adolescence.>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3779897/

Most people can imagine from that confronting children and young people with confusing images during their early formative years can result in tears.

Yes, the media and film do set out to shock and the unusual (and risky) can be presented as commonplace (and safe).

Taking the example of anal sex that is presented in the media and film as common and normal for heterosexuals (and probably to desensitise objections to risky gay sexual practices), there are concerns that girls and young women are being forced into high risk sex acts they don't like or want, because they and their male partners are taking their lead from 'The Box' and films.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 10:43:01 AM
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Suseonline, let me guess? you have never seen or even heard of

http://www.simpsonsworld.com/region-simpsons/

61,000,000 results, must have been a popular TV series?

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?ei=04U5VrjoPIGu0gS27JGQBA&ved=0CAUQqS4oAw#q=the+simpsons

WHICH TEACHES BOYS THEY ARE STUPID &/OR EVIL WHILE GIRLS ARE SMART & VIRTUOUS. Are you seriously suggesting that boys growing up with this misandry poured on them every day & raised by dead beat single mothers were not influenced? that some of them were more likely to be confused about their sexuality?

Sorry darling, i forgot, being female you have approximately 14 billion less brain cells than i do & are a loyal, brain washed member of the radical, extreme, left wing, religious feminism cult?

onthebeach, she knows all about the evidence too & is in denial.
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 2:27:10 PM
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a good ending from a man who as a boy was crossdressed by his grandmother (yeah some of them are sick). After having a 'changing' gender years later he relaised he had been conned by the deviant industry.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

The GLBT will sacrifice the lives of kids to push their perverted ideology. To think so much Government funding goes to these deviant organisations. No wonder the muslims laugh at such stupidity.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 5:31:15 PM
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Ima...I couldn't get your link to work (again), but surely you can't seriously think I would be impressed by anything a cartoon might say? Lol!

Can you give me one example where anyone from the Arts, Entertainment, Media & Education industries has told children they may indeed be abnormal & needing surgery?

Onthebeach starts ranting about the sexualisation of children....but still no proof.
I never said my thoughts on this transgender subject were scientifically proven did I?
You, on the other hand think everything that drips from your mouth is truthful.....

Runner....you never say anything much about anything...as usual.
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 4 November 2015 9:52:50 PM
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Suseonline, i already have given you a "children's" program in which misandry is brain washed into children. Being deceptive about it in order to protect "corporate paedophiles" (a feminist term that i am agreeing with) is impressing no body & is also a great way to lose friends, UN-influence people.

Q, is your purpose to provoke an angry response from the people you argue with that is strong enough to justify a complaint from you to the moderators resulting in being banned by the moderators? is deliberate provocation from feminists the cause of most DV?
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Thursday, 5 November 2015 5:00:00 AM
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So...still no proof of mad theories about transgenderism then?
So Ima.... resorts to threats and innuendos.
Typical.....
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 5 November 2015 10:25:50 AM
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Iamdelusional,

Firstly, The Simpsons isn’t a kids show, it’s a family show geared towards most ages from teenage upwards.

Secondly, if you think that the females of the Simpson family being smarter than the males is an entertainment industry plot to brainwash people with misandry then you suffer from paranoid delusions. Where is the evidence for such intent?

What about Family Ties? The son was very intelligent while the oldest daughter was as thick as two bricks. Was that an attempt on the entertainment industry's behalf to brainwash kids with misogyny?
Posted by AJ Philips, Thursday, 5 November 2015 11:54:31 AM
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Suseonline, "still no proof of .. transgenderism"

As much and no less than for gays and lesbians being born that way too.

-Completely unlike the feminists' 'Patriarchy' paradigm, which is absolute bunkum.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 5 November 2015 2:03:45 PM
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Lol OTB, how much more do we have to read about your complete paranoia about 'feminists'?
They seem to be at the root of all evil towards you.......scary.......
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 5 November 2015 5:28:35 PM
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"It is my considered position that femaleness is conferred by the final pair of XX chromosomes." - Germain Greer (and Biology/Psychology 101).

Perhaps today's obsession with transgenderism has resulted partly, at least, from previous generations' expectations that boys played war games and girls played with dolls. Well I broke all the rules in that regard. Spending my boarding school holidays with my male cousins, I hated dolls (but not teddy bears), climbed trees and rock faces, kicked a football and loved cricket. An analytical mind and an interest in research immediately set me apart from the norm in post-WW2 Australia. But nobody criticised my choices in that regard. I married and had four children, encouraging them to follow their passions, regardless of societal expectations but within the bounds of moral and ethical behaviour.

Perhaps these gender specific expectations from a past era, along with a lack of absolute values and the freedom to explore anything previously considered 'out of bounds', have paved the way for today's gender-related issues. But as a former nurse, I have seen the end results of many surgical gender reassignment operations (including vaginoplasty and penile inversion), and these included gangrene, mental illness, and ultimate death, This is the ugly side that is seldom discussed. And, as I stated above, the person's DNA remains unchanged regardless of how much pre-surgery counselling and actual gender reassignment is performed.
Posted by elizann, Friday, 6 November 2015 12:59:04 PM
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Mal Fletcher writes that "the National Union of Students in Britain canceled a scheduled address by author and iconoclast Germaine Greer" because of her views. He says he doesn't know what Ms Greer's views are in detail, but wants to address if the "NUS should make a practice of effectively closing down a debate before it has begun". That might be a very interesting question for the members of the NUS (whoever they are) and others in UK academia. But how is this interesting, or relevant, to anyone else?

What do the NUS say of the issue? What does Ms. Greer say? What are the views of the Australian equivalent of the NUS? What are the views of Ms. Greer's counterparts at Australian universities? Otherwise why should anyone on this side of the planet care about a dispute between a Cambridge academic and a group of UK students?
Posted by tomw, Monday, 9 November 2015 12:36:33 PM
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Suseonline, What mad theories? babies are born as healthy females, healthy males & with birth defects. some formerly healthy children are abused or traumatised during childhood are mentally scared by the trauma, have PTSD, BPD, etc as a result & acting out sexually, leads to sexually abnormal behaviour like GLBT lifestyle. added to that left wing, antisocial engineering over the last few decades has seen an increase in antisocial sexuality. THIS IS SETTLED SCIENCE AS YOU WELL KNOW.

AJ Philips, the simpsons has been watched by babies since birth & there has been almost no such thing as a positive male role model from the left wing Arts, Entertainment, Media & Education industries in half a century.

onthebeach, too true, feminists ask us for proof every time we speak but provide none themselves.

Suseonline, according to your own rants DV & child abuse has been worsening ever since feminist policies have been introduced.

elizann, hear, hear, i grew up with both girly girls & tom boys, both were normal, healthy. i have also had & still have many GLBT friends, almost all of whom are UN-healthy. Mutilating the body does not cure a sick mind.

tomw, the culture in Australian academia is even worse than it is in Britain. our universities need a cultural revolution ASAP, no Australian child will be safe until it does.
Posted by imacentristmoderate, Tuesday, 10 November 2015 6:15:17 AM
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"imacentristmoderate" wrote 10 November 2015: "the culture in Australian academia is even worse than it is in Britain. our universities need a cultural revolution ASAP, no Australian child will be safe until it does.".

Australian universities are not designed to be safe for children, as they mostly have adult students. Children visiting a university campus are expected to be under the supervision of an adult. Unlike school teachers, university lecturers are not required to have 'Working with Children' clearance and so are not licensed to provide that supervision.

I am not sure what "cultural revolution" you are proposing for Australian universities. If it is anything like the Cultural Revolution in China, with widespread persecution and burning of books, I do not think this would be a good thing.

As for a comparison of UK and Australia academia, they seem to be similar, at least judging from my brief visit to Cambridge University a few months ago: http://blog.tomw.net.au/search/label/Cambridge%20University
Posted by tomw, Tuesday, 10 November 2015 1:57:34 PM
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