Firstly I also want to point out the extensive use of "we" and "our".

Theres a couple of statements you made where I shall begin.

"In a democracy such as ours we must surely put trust in our ministers..."

Why must we?
I thought Australians mostly have contempt for politicians and we don't actually vote for anyone because we like them but we vote for the lesser evil.
Which leads me on to another statement you made.

"In this, it is important to distinguish our system of government from that of our good friend and ally the USA."

(And just because I'd happily see the removal of the Union Jack doesnt mean I want a totalitarian government with unrestrained executive powers)

Why exactly are the U.S. good?
What do they do that makes them our friend?

Inviting us into foreign wars that they instigate that go against International law?

Doesn't that increase our threat rather than our security?

I've pretty much reached my red line with the US.
Firstly, I'm tired of them going into other peoples countries and destabilising and overthrowing governments and helping to create hell on earth in the name of democracy.
This hospital bombing in Kunduz shows what the US are really all about.
Using an AC-130 Spectre gunship to shoot up a hospital goes beyond terrorism.

If we had've not followed the US and UK into these overseas conflicts and had immigration policies which see these foreigners taking over our communities we might now be in the situation were in or have a need to spy on everyone.

If our leaders want to spy on us then we should be able to spy on them.
Show me whats in the TPP and what our leaders agreed to "in our best interests".

You talk of terrorists, but I'm seriously looking at the US government in that context.
I think its actually disturbing to think of what they might do in the future (given what they've done in the past) in defense of the petrodollar, their economy, and their position as the worlds leading superpower.

The US is a positive ally . I would not be so sure about the Us suggesting AU join an illegal war, Abbott wanted that to be the case and asked for it. I am still not sure if we know what side we are fighting for.

We now have govt; stability and things are different. So we can again put faith back into our govt; The US have been long term friends of Australia. And best to stay that way, we are a grossly under- populated country with a great expanse of land, and that is a good reason to have friends of influence.

The US gets bombing coordinates and intelligence from spies on the ground, and that hospital was said to be an Isis facility, and a target.

The times we live in are challenging, technology has moved very fast and left gaping holes to be filled. The massive uptake of technology which has infiltrated every aspect of life all around the globe has its vulnerabilities, just another ongoing crisis that needs continual development to combat.

The middle east in turmoil with Pakistan and Indonesia becoming increasingly worried of creeping hard line Koran readers putting their own interpretation on to it. There is certainly no end of violence coming soon.

Well, I can't speak on behalf of "we", whoever "they" are, but "I" would be happy to see restraints removed when Islamists are dealt with. Remember, Muslims are exhorted to lie if they are threatened; how are our nice methods supposed to contend with that, along with their brutal hatred of us?

If Australians fall into the hands of Islamic terrorists, I don't there is a case of: these Aussies are nice to us, we'll return the compliment.

".. if we once abandon those standards or condone the lowering of their application in respect of our enemies we will surely come to have the same standards applied to ourselves." Don't think so. Our enemies and criminals already apply the standards to the rest of us.

The author has put up some good work to date, but he has dropped a clanger with this one.

I think the question out oversight could be handled differently. Judicial oversight is important but I'd the judiciary are constrained to matters of law it may not be enough. The kicker for me is an oversight that puts the good of the nation and the people who make up the nation above what the law allows and party political priorities.

Not just in how security agencies operate but in all matters where arms of government get to self censor what those who foot the bills are allowed to know. There may be official secrets, commercial in confidence agreenents, cabinet documents that should not be available to other nations but none of that should be free of scrutiny from independent review by nonpartisan audit subject to some rules if conduct.

R0bert

Hey doog,

"The US gets bombing coordinates and intelligence from spies on the ground, and that hospital was said to be an Isis facility, and a target."

Your comment is one that plays the events down, and is the official line on the issue.

The AC-130 Spectre gunship operates at a lower altitude and relies on visual targeting (usually with the use of night vision as missions occur mostly at night).

Perhaps the phase "Raining Death" puts this attack into perspective.
There's no way US forces did not see everything that was happening on the ground and they probably had dozens of personnel involved in carrying out this mission.

MSF had notified US forces of the hospitals location.
And the US continued attacking the hospital even after MSF people on the ground called and notified US officials they were bombing a hospital.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/13/inside-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-taliban-us-attack/

"It follows as an imperative of these ideals that the standards of fair play must be maintained in all matters of national security."

Ya kidding, right?

And its "metadata" not "mega data". Mine is worth retaining.

Poida

Well, one sense of "we" does actually exist here - that collection of all people who would have their throats slit had the Islamic State managed to get hold of "us".

Being in that predicament, we are driven to choose and support the lesser evil, that of the Australian State.

There is no "we" beyond that, but meanwhile, the Australian State cynically benefits from the existence of the Islamic State and other criminals.

Now finding ourselves between the rock and a hard place, the questions raised by the author are very valid and have no easy answer: How far do "we" prefer to have the CERTAINTY of losing some of our freedom over what is still only a RISK of losing our throats. Again, no easy answers to this unfair question.

why should we be living in 1984 because of a few criminals? deport them.

Hi imacentristmoderate

It be even worse in Australia's history.

Started with the First Fleet - violence, rum, convicts everywhere. Australia was under martial law, more or less.

Then the Fenians, no Orish need apply.

Chinese, Greeks, Italians, Croatians, Vietnamese gangs all brought surveillance of a type but less so electronic. Then went quiet - pretty much.

Now we are all surveilled by Google, Internet Adverts and private security operators of CCTV more than being watched by the security services and cops - that Human Rights malcontents and sundry rabble rousers are so worried about.

I plan to turn all my retained metadata into an autobiography. Oim sure, to be sure, that FOI will allow it when its time.

plantagenet, i hear where you are coming from with your dry wit, but your analysis is off. Even under martial law from the earliest days of the colony the authorities were trying to be kindler & gentler. The English, German, Scottish & Welsh migrants all settled down to their honest, protestant work ethic & our legal authorities did not need to be draconian.

Every single other racial, religious or ethnic migrant group has brought a higher % rate of "problem children" with it. EG, Northern Italian migrants have done well or assimilated, Southern Italian Mafia migrants were on 4 Corners yet again the other day.

Remembering how Australian troops in Afghanistan have been killed by
the Afghan soldiers they were working & living with, a thought comes
to me.
Could the coordinates of the hospital have been sent to the US air
force by an Afghan officer ?
Perhaps there could be a number of people in the chain ?

I presume the US is looking into it.
Were there Red Crosses on the roof ?
It could be something as simple as misreading one number. Who knows ?

The request to stop would take time to get through the system and the
whole event would be over in a few minutes, or possibly less.
Someone said something about the confusion of war.

I agree, we have to give the ASIO, Police etc more leeway in their
investigations. Delay caused by not being able to delve more deeply
into networks of criminals and terrorist networks could conceivably result in deaths.

Make no mistake we are at war, just a different type of war.

Bazz,
Apparently the official story from the US has changed several times but the article below states that is was from Afghani intel.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/06/doctors-without-borders-airstrike-afghanistan-us-account-changes-again

The US has admitted it made a mistake, but I'm not totally buying it.
I think they knew it was a hospital and attacked it anyway.
http://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/us-analysts-suspected-taliban-activity-at-afghan-hospital-1.373459

In relation to the timeframe of the attack and the MSF staff getting word to US officials -
"The hospital was hit 4 or 5 times at intervals of about 15 minutes."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/08/world/europe/kunduz-afghanistan-hospital-doctors-without-borders.html?_r=0

As for a US investigation... (Lol)
I heard they rolled up with a tank unannounced and drove it through the hospital in order to destroy any evidence.
http://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/doctors-without-borders-us-tank-forced-its-way-into-bombed-afghan-hospital-1.373495

Bazz and Armchair

Someone I know with Afghanistan connections advises that the Hospital would have been marked on US maps as a Hospital-No Bomb Zone for years. A red cross on the roof would be a further reminder.

It was a US stuffup that was one factor.

A more telling factor is the nature of most armed Afghan institutions. They tend to act as private army-standover groups that extract protection money.

In this case Afghan forces had demanded Protection Money from the Hospital. The Hospital fell into arrears or refused to continue paying so an example was made of it. The Afghani military or police protection racket called in a confused US airstike.

Thats what Australian forces continue to fight and die for in Afghanistan.

Ahhh yes Plantagenet, that I can believe.
It fits in with the level of corruption reports that abound.
I would imagine that all the data and orders would be in text form
these days to make it traceable and error free.

Perhaps in the long run we should just let ISIS get on with killing
moslems and leave them to it.
We, the West, could just insure the oil facilities were protected and
leave them to fight to the death. It would do us all a favour.

Build an electronic wall around the middle east, stop anyone coming
out or going in except those involved in keeping the oil flowing.
Ahh well we can only hope.

Hi Bazz

Yes ISIS is the most popularly known problem.

Protection rackets have been an integral part of Afghani culture forever and part of wider Middle Eastern culture.

It must be admitted that up to the 16th century Europe and the UK also had protection rackets everywhere - lords of the manner and their men.

Once the oil runs out in the Middle East the uniformerly fat Gulf Arabs will run out of money to fund wars and terrorism.

Thanks for the inside info on the Kunduz hospital attack Plantagenet.
I also think your info sounds believable.
Its the probably the most reasonable explanation I've heard so far.

Plantagenet, the oil will take a long time to run out and as it does
the price will probably recover for a while.
The Saudis will have a reasonable income for a while but their problem
is their modecoddled population. At present they are drawing down on
their investments rather too quickly, $70 billion over the last couple
of months. They face problems with discontent as they cut back subsidies
on everything. It is thought if it gets tough enough the house of Saud
could go.

Actually the coming financial crash could bring everything to a head
and the middle east could suffer the most as it is a large food importer.
It would probably cause a mass emigration to take place.
Egypt is a case in point, it has to get rid of 45 million people.

I just wonder how Islam as a political system would stand up to an
impoverished middle east ?

What the West needs right now to win this war
against Islamists who plot the downfall of Europe is Putin,

I have thought we needed Russia as a European Allie since the
Russians invaded Afghanistan 30years ago.
I saw that war on the news reel at the drive in and it struck
me as odd then, that Europeans should be fighting Europeans
That is America against Russians, Anerica siding with what I considered to be some very dubious looking men with long scraggly beads in long robes. I didn't like the look of them at all,
And as was revealed in recent years Osama Bin Laden was fighting
in that war against the Russians. And who helped him, America.

Well they paid the price for supporting the wrong side with
the attack on the twin towers.

They are supporting the wrong side from the European well-being
perspective in Syria now I believe and I also believe that Putin
understands the history of that area and the Ottoman empire than
Westerners do and he is right to go in on the side of Assad.

still have not seen one word in the article or any comment justifying why we should all be treated like criminals when a minority of criminals who could easily be deported is the problem. deport the criminals then we can all move on from 1984.

Trouble is we don't know who in the Muslim
Communities is going to attack.
So we have to treat them all with suspicion
Especially since the Muslim community never
Really comes out and blames the members of
Their community who commit this violence for
The fact they are viewed with suspicion.

No, they blame the non Muslim community for making
The poor didums feel unwelcome.

That's just plain bulls..t.

Doesn't exactly inspire trust in the Muslim community.
It' s not us that have to change our behaviour the
Responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of the Muslim
Community. Reign in the violent behaviour of your members.