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The Forum > Article Comments > Civic mindedness US style! > Comments

Civic mindedness US style! : Comments

By Brett Bowden, published 8/9/2005

Brett Bowden argues Hurricane Katrina has shown how fast the degeneration of civil order can occur in the United States.

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A sobering commentary indeed.

The first picutres I saw last week were on the front page of the Austrlian and looked as if it were of refugees fleeing the horrors of Rwanda rather than citizens of the self proclaimed greatest democracy on earth.

While the factors that underlined the fall of the Roman empire are still under debate there is no doubt that a constellation of factors were at play - over stretched militarism, internal religious conflict to name just two; there are parallels here.

The chaos that has fallen over the Gulf states has its roots is a sense of disconnectedness and disenfranchisement. New Orleans in particualr is the poorest of the American poor, very few have adewquate resources lete alone private health insurance so the human costs is a long way off from being realised.

The philosopphy that underwrites the current drive for self reliance in the face of an unfair distribution of wealth is fertile ground for the growth of an under class that will soon tire of being subjagated and ignored.

The USA has already had one civil war; looks like another one might be on the horizon - not tomorrow, not even in a decade or two but unless things change at some stage the president might be suggestion the good citizens go back to their village and lock up their children.
Posted by sneekeepete, Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:34:31 AM
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National Geographic predicted Hurricane Katrina's impact last year:
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/
Posted by Jennifer Clarke, Thursday, 8 September 2005 11:33:47 AM
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Read the article in the New Yorker by John McPhee date line 1983 that outlined then the physical problems of New Orleans - ya gotta wonder! And then the transcript of Late Night Live - Radio National where Adams talks to an academic Robert Bullard on the racial feature of the disaster, author Mike Tidwell on the potential fate of New Orleans together with his warning several years ago and a refugee editor from that city, Mike Tisserand on the sociological dynamic of the area. It all merely reinforces the potency of Bowdens piece.

Dennis Altman back in the 80's wrote of the dangers of a kind of social underclass that might develop in Australia much like that laid bare in New Orleans this month. While it hasnt been fully realized here yet - and I suspect the effects of the Whitlam years and indeed those of the Hawke Keating regime put the brakes on it a bit - the trend over the last decade is certainly stoking the furnances of discontent with more to come as the divide between the rich and poor widens.
Posted by sneekeepete, Thursday, 8 September 2005 11:58:55 AM
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I listened to a ABC radio program yesterday (buy can’t remember the program name or time), but from what was said, FEMA in the US was asked to determine if a tsunami type disaster (as occurred in Asian countries recently) could occur in the US.

FEMA immediately identified New Orleans as being a potential disaster area, due mainly to the geography of the area, and the fact that so many buildings were in low lying regions. However the problem would cost about $14 Billion to fix, so it wasn’t fixed.

But I think that the US is now too dominated by it’s industrial/military corporations, and not enough concentration has been placed upon it’s many social problems. Having the Neocons in power probably wouldn’t help much either.
Posted by Timkins, Thursday, 8 September 2005 12:25:46 PM
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The government response to the havoc in New Orleans was most certainly inadequate and shocking, initially. But as usual, the most newsworthy occurrences have been the looting, shooting, raping by a small minority and of course, the ineptitude of George W. Bush – that evil target of the chattering classes.

“Where else in the world…..?” moans the author. Well, apart from places like Rwanda where they didn’t need the excuse of natural disaster to butcher each other, and Zimbabwe where the government deliberately bulldozed the homes of its own citizens, and other African countries whose governments allow their own people to starve while they live in luxury, we don’t know how Australia or other western countries would cope with such a disaster – a whole city wiped out! That hasn’t happened since WW11.

My own mother opined that Bush wasn’t interested because most of the people affected were poor blacks! She is also a US-hater but, I suppose, can be forgiven as a ga ga 87 year old. Mr. Bowden has no such excuse.

The New Orleans tragedy is just another excuse to bash the Yanks. Most of Bowden’s article is taken up with America’s ‘gun culture’, ‘no inkling of any notion of citizenship’ (whatever that means), perceived ‘social injustices’. ‘polarisation’, and the ‘dramatic collapse of social order’. He even drags up the Civil War!

The horror of New Orleans is set aside – if you please – in the second paragraph, to re-emerge again only in the last sentence as a symptom of all that’s wrong with America. Given the largesse America has unstintingly spread around the world, I am reminded of old remark: once we had skinny friends, now we have fat enemies.

I’m surprised Americans want to do anything for anybody with all the bad-mouthing they get.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 8 September 2005 12:26:41 PM
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quote from right wing web site Tech central "The scenes of wanton chaos, lawlessness, desperation and death in New Orleans can't be blamed on Mother Nature alone. We have known from centuries of bitter experience just what she is capable of. And in Katrina's case, she told us precisely what she was planning to do and when she was planning to do it. No, the mayhem strewn in Katrina's wake resulted from a collapse of government at all levels. But unlike the storm, which gave a mere 24 hours worth of warning, the swirling maelstrom of government incompetence and inattention that led to ruin was hiding in plain site."
Posted by Kenny, Thursday, 8 September 2005 2:26:45 PM
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FEMA prevented water being given by large compnaies,as it was not on their list of 'must do's'. Whilst ignoring the local Governing bodies. The lack of organisation showed itself within 24 hours of the disaster. Many Australians have asked why the people were still there if there was a hurricane of that magnitude on the way. They could not leave. Many had no money for fuel or accomodation. There is no 'social system' in the USA, there is no access to transport or accomodation provided for the have not's, for evacuation. So, they stay. They go to shelters or risk staying in their homes. I lived in Biloxi last year when Hurricane Ivan was approaching,. There were no buses to take people out. People from Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana were all sharing one main highway and 2 minor highways to escape. Not great road planning for disaster management. We had a home to return to. Had we still lived there this year, there would have been no home, as our old apartment complex is gone. Regarding the issue of the anger and violence, the outbursts to newsmen by the victims,were the result of being without water or any sustenance for more than 3 days, which, would test the strongest. Would any of us sit quietly and die? I feel most of us would fight for survival. As to the violence, the history of the USA is by and large built around strength, and, God Country and Gun is a significant belief of the citizens. Yes, there have been unfortunate instances of violence, but was it necessary for the Government to send armed troops into New Orleans ready for battle, rather than sending in medicine, water, food and respite? I think not. It also took a week for many Americans to open their cities, homes and hearts to the plight of the victims.
The world has seen the USA and found it wanting. Shame, shame shame. This is not just systemic yank bashing, this is seeing a westernised industrial nation in its true glory.
Posted by tinkerbell1952, Thursday, 8 September 2005 2:55:17 PM
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One of BOAZ_DAVIDS mates has told us who's to blame for Hurricane Katrina ......Gay's. mad as a hatter.
http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html
Posted by Kenny, Thursday, 8 September 2005 6:33:53 PM
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Ugh. Nutbags.
Posted by Laurie, Friday, 9 September 2005 12:08:45 PM
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Its interesting that there has been a long US right wing expectation that when civilisation breaks down - the subjects of racial division and "Godlessness" will rear their ugly head.

The right wing survivalist "cure" has been to buy more guns and a lot more ammo to defend "the faarrmmmm" from those rootless masses coming up from destroyed cities.

This "breakdown of society" scenerio appears to have been played out in New Orleans.

It would be interesting to see if there has been a significant jump in gun ownership in the US in the next 3 months or so.

Having lived in central Texas for 2 years (several years ago) the spirit of the gun, and God, as weapons in the war on society's problems, is alive and well.
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 9 September 2005 1:58:55 PM
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Kenny,
There were probably 2 disasters at New Orleans. One was the cyclone, and the other was the relief effort, which was a disaster in itself.

But I have noticed your many maligning posts about other posters, and now you have maligned another poster who hasn’t even posted onto this particular forum.

I can’t really understand the rules of the forum when this is allowed to happen, but maybe you could get a certain role in a certain Shakespearian play
Posted by Timkins, Friday, 9 September 2005 2:11:41 PM
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Timmy the piece is about US culture and I put a relevant link what is wrong with that?
Posted by Kenny, Friday, 9 September 2005 3:00:17 PM
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Kenny,
If the piece is about US culture, then I would think that there are people in the US who are beginning to stretch and alter the rules to suit themselves, but speaking of this, I think that maligning another poster who hasn’t even posted onto this particular forum, is stretching the rules of the forum also.

Of course, call me names if you think that I am wrong.
Posted by Timkins, Friday, 9 September 2005 3:31:00 PM
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Eh, Timkins is right Kenny. The comment re B-D was a bit of a low blow.

But back on topic. It has been quite shocking, not only how little has been organised (I was rather surprised they were bus'ing and copter'ing people out... where were the hercules aircraft or similar?), but also the lack of pitch-in from various groups. Like the lack of body collection by anyone- yes, a grotty, nasty, uncomfortable job. But after the Tsunami the bodies were collected as soon as possible. In this situation they are being left to rot with people saying "oh well, we're tasked with helping the living"... yes, true. But in stopping rotting bodies further polluting the water, you WOULD be helping the living.

Anyway, it has been a strange example of bungled rescue, lack of leadership and direction, and an odd lack of compassion from so many areas... Why did they send in the National Guard before teams of doctors and nurses? Why were the media able to find people easier than the formal rescuers? Why was the city so ill-prepared that people did not have water and food stockpiled for this sort of eventuality? Even if this is a once-in-a-hundred-years storm, they do get hurricanes every year that knock out the power at the very least...

Many questions will be asked in the coming months no doubt.
Posted by Laurie, Friday, 9 September 2005 3:51:24 PM
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Yeah, look, I’m simply unconvinced as to the clarity the devastation wrought by hurricane Katrina on New Orleans can bring to the States’ alleged racial, class etc divide.

I’m sure it’s all so fascinating slash delicious for our Australian and international media, but the facts don’t quite stack like the tasty rhetoric.

Let us not forget that, unlike in the case of the Indian Ocean tsunami, ample warning was given as to the threat of the coming storm. As such, those left in New Orleans were the infirm, poor, borderline criminal and, yes, black underclass. A potent mix, of course. What an opportunity to terrorise one’s neighbours and rip off one’s local Wal Mart.

When the cyclonic winds and surging waves crashed into New Orleans, those left within the doomed city were those most likely to descend into anarchy. So, while the outcome of Katrina with its lawless and despicable caprice is tragic, it is hardly a foundation on which to build a critique of modern America.

No-one’s going to get anywhere selling such a lemon in the long-term. I say stop pillaging the obvious, lazy Yankee Doodle clichés and start applying a bit of intellectual rigour to the situation.
Posted by BotanyWhig, Friday, 9 September 2005 11:52:17 PM
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Dear Botany

I think the course of events in New Orleans are the best indication to date of the fundamental weaknesses in American society. The fact that we point this out doesn't make us anti-American.

Many American are also talking and writing of the forgotten black underclass in New Orleans and seeing this as a failure in their society.

Many of those remaining in the city were old and white in underfunded nursing homes who were left with their carers to fend for themselves while healthy richer younger families shipped out in their SUVs two days beforehand.

Your comments on the article are no deeper than anyone else's and you seem a bit insensitive about those who remained - was it because they were mostly black?
Posted by plantagenet, Saturday, 10 September 2005 1:14:07 AM
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Thanx guys for your support.. KENNY was indeed 'mean' :) but its cool, life would be boring otherwise.

Now Kenny, I'll give you the ammo you need to make your statement less mindless :)

I note (as simple observation of fact) that the major area hit by the Tnusami was an area of 'radical Islam' and the Hurricane Katrina was an area of 'radical debauchery' (the term used by the locals "Southern Debauchery".)

Its a bit of a long bow to start claiming "God was judging" and to say it with anything other than a sense of "Well, He has done so in the past"

In the case of Israel, God repeatedly warned them and warned them... and WARNED them.... that if they went after idolatry and debauchery, they would get it in the neck... to put it bluntly. They had spiritual and social responsiblities based on the covenant relationship, and in their case, to walk away from this, was serious stuff.

If the Old testament says anything, it clearly and unequivocally declares that Gods patience with mankind does have limits.
Flood, Babel, Exiles.

Romans 1 is crystal clear about devient practices

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

KENNY...perhaps that righteous judgement... was revealed ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 10 September 2005 4:13:34 PM
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It is interesting how differrent people percieve the same event and give differing accounts. The comments raised on the post Katrina days are not just to 'have a go' at the USA. The actions of the United States in general have shown the weaknesses and cracks in the 'super armour'. There is no social structure in the USA for transporting those unable to leave with buses or even accomodation. The country has very little social structure in place. We do take it for granted in Australia that 'help' will be there. One needs to understand the American psyche which is vastly different from our own culture. My strong criticism is the fact that for many days, people were left stranded in buildings which had be utilised for safety during and after hurricane activity - namely the Stadium. The very fact that soldiers, journalists were allowed to access the area, yet medical personnel, food, water was not allowed in. This is fact. People died from dehydration, diabetic shock, general shock, heart attacks and many other reasons. Most of these people would have lived had necessary attention been given. Yes, many were unable to leave prior to the Hurricane and I doubt that many would want to stay just for the fun of breaking into Walmart. Meanwhile, whilst they died, the water and medicine was sitting in trucks in Baton Rouge and other places. There is no reason at all that any Government can give for allowing its people to die without offering help and aid. The vision of children crying and dying is one I can not erase.
Posted by tinkerbell1952, Saturday, 10 September 2005 7:42:20 PM
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Tinkerbell

Thank you for your insightful posts. You have lived in the region. Most posters have not.

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Saturday, 10 September 2005 9:38:24 PM
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Laurie I rest my case.
Posted by Kenny, Monday, 12 September 2005 9:25:27 AM
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Hey Kenny- it seemed a low blow, but then what do you know? Turns out you were very right...

Boaz, if God 'punished' people for their 'debauchery', do only 'sinners' and 'heathens' suffer from natural disasters? I'm sure all of those who have suffered from bushfires, floods, storms, earthquakes, tsunamis etc etc etc are very glad to hear that. *shakes head in disgust*
Posted by Laurie, Monday, 12 September 2005 12:29:47 PM
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I am increasingly worried about "culture". Particularly "institutionalised culture" in the Governmnets of Australia, the US and the UK.

I believe we are heading towards the diemmas of pre-World war and post World war 1+ 2. The idealogies through most topics that we a debating stink of the rhetoric present at that time - only the "label's" have different names.

I fear we are not utilising our knowledge productively. We react to everything "sensational" and defie the essential debate in the "development" of being human.

Kathina is a message - showing how we (in the West) can get it so wrong. All the technical ability in the universe will not help us care or protect fellow cilvilans, unless the focus "to do just that" is applied.

In this way, I believe institutional reform is essential. We have the knowledge, we have most of the polices, but somehow individuals making up these institutions - are missing something essential - in being human.

http://www.miacat.com/
Posted by miacat, Tuesday, 13 September 2005 10:12:30 AM
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