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The Forum > Article Comments > When idealists give way to ideology > Comments

When idealists give way to ideology : Comments

By Mal Fletcher, published 18/9/2015

Idealists in the population will often project their visions of a better future onto ideologues, whose intransigence on issues is often mistaken for a sign of prescience.

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LEGO, stop fooling yourself! Pinochet was an evil dictator whose actions can't be justified by any rational criteria. So instead you tried to justify it with lies and resorted to the absolutely abominable tactic of blaming the victims!

Try considering what people actually have to say instead of writing them off as "loony left" and assuming their views to be what you ignorantly assume those of socialists to be.

Brutal methods tend to be a characteristic of dictators, not socialists. Some dictators are socialists, but most aren't.

And this was not about property rights. Both of Allende's opponents wanted to nationalise the copper mines; he and one of them wanted to do so without proper compensation. And once Pinochet took over he didn't return them to their rightful owners. But under the Pinochet regime ordinary people were coerced into surrendering their public pensions for far less lucrative private pensions. And Chile's economic performance was mediocre. The only reason the stats look impressive is that they include the one off boost from ending the strikes (which would've ended anyway).
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 27 September 2015 7:56:00 PM
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//My premise is that he was a hero//

Jesus, if Pinochet's a hero then I'd hate to see what your idea of a villain looks like. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. Sometimes he's just a dick.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 27 September 2015 11:06:05 PM
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To Aiden

A "mediocre" economy is still a lot better than a collapsing one.

Greece has a bloated public service pension scheme which is bankrupting the economy, and whatever form a Greek government takes, they too will eventually have to deal with it. When they do, I suppose you will say that they are "evil" and "oppressing the people?"

Dictators tend to be brutal, but some countries are better off for it. My favourite brutal dictator was Josef Broz Tito who regularly shot anybody (including one of his best friends) who stirred up separatist nationalism in Yugoslavia. When he died, his multicultural country fell apart and a million people died.

Saddam Hussein was about as bad as they come. But at least he held his multicultural country together. That is why the western world often backs brutal dictators. Some countries are so dysfunctional and socially divided that only a brutal dictator can hold the joint together, and give some sort of peace and stability. And whatever follows the brutal dictators could be a lot worse. Look at Syria, Iraq and Iran today.

Dictatorship is better than anarchy. The west will support those brutal dictators who at least try to keep some sort of a free market economy and try to keep good relations with the rest of the world. We oppose those who promote socialism, especially those who try to export this failed system through violence and terrorism. The US would have left Sandanistas of Nicaragua alone had they not tried to foment socialist revolutions in their neighbours. Saddam Hussein would have been left alone if he had not invaded Kuwait, left Kuwait when ordered to by the UN, and behaved himself after his defeat in Desert Storm.

Pinochet did exactly the right thing in Chile. Greece too was better off under military rule. Yugoslavia was better off under Tito. Iran was better off under the Shah. Arabs in particular seem to accept dictatorship as a natural law of nature.
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 28 September 2015 4:56:08 AM
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The mediocre Saudi policies are far outdone by the skill of ISIS administration. Here we see competent application of firm vision in all sectors of state roles. They have focussed the pivoting of even superpowers in their confused knee jerking. With the proven track record of Tito, Pinochet, Adolf and Howard to guide learners from the mistakes of unbalanced books, the Middle east has a glowing future.
Posted by nicknamenick, Monday, 28 September 2015 5:45:53 AM
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Hi Lego,
I am not an ideologue. I am a fan of socialised capitalism and democracy. I believe we need competition and co-operation to get the best from our society. I think we need to act as individuals, and have personal freedoms and liberties, but we also need to foster social capital and cohesion - we are social creatures and if we can't connect to others we feel isolated and alienated.

It is fair to say, that I am no fan of neo-liberalism. To me, neo-liberalism is an extreme amoral version of capitalism.

The Scandinavian model of social democracy has a lot going for it. Admittedly, they have been implementing neo-liberal policies in the last few years, and have seen an increase in inequality as a result. I think the Danish notion of hygge (the cosy feeling you get with friends) is a missing element in our stressful, competitive, society, where many of us have a feeling of being left out or behind.

In a wealthy country like Australia we have billions to spend on dodgy fighter jets, but little to combat the growing problem of homelessness (1 in 200 Australians is homeless) - isn't that strange? I don't know about you, but too many of the people I know seem to either be on anti-depressants or self medicating. To me that is a sign that despite our national wealth, something is missing. Something is wrong. We need a more inclusive society that invests in people.

No political system will ever be perfect, but we need to recognize what works and what doesn't. Neo-liberalism is amoral. It priorities corporate needs over those of ordinary people. It externalises environmental and social costs. It assumes that what is good for big business is good the the economy as a whole. This is patently false. We need to civilise the excesses of Capitalism to live in a healthy society. Greed, aggression, and competition only get you so far. We also need a society that values honesty, honour, compassion and co-operation. In a neo-liberal world, those values are for saps and do-gooders.
Posted by BJelly, Monday, 28 September 2015 9:11:53 AM
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