Any person with average intelligence does not believe rabbis or generals: he knows that only a nutjob would facilitate such an arrangement with the mad dog Iranian regime. And Obama is certainly a nutjob.

The last sentence. "Who has Obama conned - the Rabbis or the Generals? Congress – and the world - need to know."

Maybe Obama has conned nobody. There is disagreement as to the value of the arrangement with Iran. However, the last sentence which assumes that Obama has conned somebody reveals Singer's prejudice toward Obama.

Like any other country sometime Israel does something good, and sometime Israel does something bad. However, with Singer whatever Israel does he will support. If Obama does something that Netanyahu doesn't want him to do then Obama becomes a conman.

It's a pity. Singer has a good mind, but kneejerk support of Israel or of any other country is not worthy of a good mind.

Consider this! Before you is a hill of beans. On an adjacent hill are gathered 340 rabbis and 200 American generals and admirals.

In term of value to the world, which hill has the most value?

ANSWER: Neither hill has any value but at least the hill of beans would feed a few of the world's starving millions!

Israel has the bomb, quite a few actually.

Iran does not have the bomb, yet.

Israel is an Apartheid State facilitating genocide on the Palestinians in Gaza.

Iran sponsors terrorism around the Middle East.

Israel meddles in U.S. Politics for the good of Israel, no one else.

Iran does not.

Who is the biggest threat to any lasting peace in the Middle East? Well it's obvious, Israel of course.

Never mind the generals and admirals, watch out for the insane Zionist Mr Netenyahu and his other fanatical cronies, these people who depict real evil in the world, and unfortunately we sit back and watch as they unleash their version of terror every day, with tacit approval from the U.S. Congress, bought and sold with dirty Jewish money from wealthy dual US/Israli citizens residing in the U.S. And Zionistic think tanks.

The truth be know, Israel is the problem, especially its current government, until this changes, there will be no peace in the ME.

What is important is keeping Israel's possession of 100+ nuclear weapons unchallenged by the unworthy - who are Israel's neighbours (like Iran).

After all only the pure deserve nuke ownership.

You get the picture - can freeze each frame in the Youtube for easier reading https://youtu.be/4dDtZofNhKk

Be very afraid.

Geoff,

When was the last time you heard Israel threaten to wipe Iran off the face of the earth?

Never, is the right answer, whereas we heard the last president of Iran, and Iranian clerics since, repeatedly threaten to make the threat against Israel.

Israel is the West's only ally in the Middle East. Rather than trying to save Muslim countries from themselves, our duty lies with Israel.

#Geoff

You state:
"The truth be know, Israel is the problem, especially its current government, until this changes, there will be no peace in the ME."

Israel's government changes at least once every four years when all its citizens - 20% of whom are Arab - get to vote. This has been the norm since 1948.

The Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza had one election in 2007 and none since - and none before. This has been the norm since 1948. Captive to politically corrupt leaders whose only horizon is the elimination of the Jewish State and its replacement with a 22nd Arab State the population continues to suffer from any freedom to express their wishes at the ballot box by choosing leaders who might actually want to end the conflict with Israel.

Therein lieth the problem - the continuing failure to hold free elections for the West Bank and Gazan Arabs ... but expecting you to understand that whilst wallowing in your vitriolic Jew-hatred would be too much to hope for.

Yeah Geoff de Wicked

Repent.

Most of Israel's neighbours dislike the presence of the Jewish State in their midst full stop. This has been their (larger Muslim) unneighbourly policy for more than 60 years.

Doesn't matter to them whether Netanyahu is the current Israeli PM or not.

Truth be told, Iran would be a much better country had the U.S. (Zionist orchestrated) coup in the 1950's not occurred.

Israel is a pariah State, as illegitimate as the day it was created.

I do not hate anyone Jewish, I just wish to see justice against the war criminals who include many current and former Israeli government ministers, the same could be said for those Iranians whom condone and perpetrate terror.

I sleep well at night knowing I do not support murderers from either side, can you David, Pete, ttbn etc?

Geoff,
I didn't know the Zionists had anything to do with the overthrow of Mohammad Mossedeq, though if true I wouldn't be all that surprised.
Its easy to understand why the Iranians have hatred for America given they armed and backed Saddam against them in the Iraq/Iran war (1980 -1988 and after the Iranian Revolution) and then shot down a passenger jet in Iranian airspace with 290 people in 1988.

Not exactly sure the reasons why they hate Israel.

I think Khomeini likes to remind his citizens what America did.
Like its some kind of national pride, or bolsters support for his leadership and keeps him relevant (just guessing)

But as much as they scream "Death to America, Death to Israel" I don't think they truly intend to do anything about it, (like going on the offense) because they know that it would be suicide and the US and allies would surely destroy them if they did.

Armchair Critic and Geoff of Perth

You antisemites are meant to be together and these being liberal times, when's the wedding?

Maybe one of your Iranian socialists can officiate.

Iran has never had nuclear weapons.
USA has 7,200 nukes
Iran is not violating the non-proliferation treaty
USA violates the NPT by not disarming, by building more, and by sharing with other nations.
Iran spends $24 billion Total. that's $303 /capita on military
USA spends $648 billion. that's $2,056/capita on military
Iran has 0 foreign bases and has started 0 wars in centuries.
USA has >800 foreign bases in >70 countries and has invaded>70 countries in the past 70 years
Iran has never overthrown the USA government.
USA overthrew the Iranian democracy in 1953 to install a dictator.
At the last elections in Palestine, the USA and Israel did not like the result so undermined them.
Israel, Mr Singer, is constantly saying Iran must be bombed. Your prejudices do you no credit.

Geoff of Perth:

"Israel is an Apartheid State facilitating genocide on the Palestinians in Gaza"

This is such a tired old line. Care to provide your evidence to these claims? Or are you just saying it because it's fashionable?

"Israel meddles in U.S. Politics for the good of Israel, no one else"

Here's a secret: many, many countries try to influence other countries’ policies for their own benefit. But don’t tell anyone.

"Who is the biggest threat to any lasting peace in the Middle East? Well it's obvious, Israel of course"

Well of course! Does any half decent anti-Semite really doubt this? Let's review the historical evidence:

- Israel was the driving force behind the Egypt-Yemen war in the 1960s
- It was Israel who started the war between Iran and Iraq way back in 1980
- Israel convinced Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait in the first Gulf war
- Israel was responsible for the bloody fighting in Tunisia during the so-called Arab Spring
- And in Libya
- It was Israel who orchestrated the violence in Egypt - the struggle between the army and the Moslem Brotherhood
- Israel started the Syrian civil war
- And again, not satisfied with the war in Syria, Israel tricked the Arabs into a civil war in Iraq
- And Bahrain
- And Yemen
- Turkey bombings of the PKK was instigated by Israel
- Lastly, let's not forget the pressure Israel is applying on poor Iran to oppress its own population.

Yes, I can definitely see where you're coming from. Take Israel out of the Middle East and the above conflicts would never have happened.

"Truth be told, Iran would be a much better country had the U.S. (Zionist orchestrated) coup in the 1950's not occurred"

Zionist orchestrated? Just how paranoid are you about Jews? Care to elaborate on the alleged Zionist involvement?

"Israel is a pariah State, as illegitimate as the day it was created"

Why exactly is Israel illegitimate? Why was the actual day illegitimate, unlike any other day?
Note: "just because I say so" is not a valid reason.

#ybgirp

You forgot to mention some further differences between America and Iran:

America has freedom of speech
Iran does not - taking reprisals against individuals for contact with international human rights organizations and UN human rights mechanisms.

In America journalists and bloggers (like you bygirp) are free to spew out their vitriol and Jew-hatred.
In Iran at least 13 journalists and bloggers have been arrested or detained since July 2014. As of December 2014, 30 journalists were detained, despite the release of at least eight journalists since July 2014 upon completion of their prison sentences. Charges include vaguely worded “national security" crimes, such as “propaganda against the system,” “assembly and collusion against the system,” “insulting the Supreme Leader,” and “spreading falsehoods with intent to agitate the public consciousness.”

America does not employ oppressive policies against gays
Iran does

America gave $408 million to UNWRA last year providing relief to Palestinian Arab refugees on its books
Iran gave $0

America gave $0 to Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad
Iran gave unquantified miltary and financial aid to these terrorist organisations

America has given $992 million to the UNHCR to 23 June 2015
Iran has given $0 and does not even rate a mention in the UNHCR report.

In America freedom of religion is permitted
In Iran The Office of Religious Minorities is charged with coordinating and overseeing all ceremonies held by religious minorities, including activities for the observance of religious holidays. Permission from the Ministry must be obtained in order to issue publications, and for foreign missionaries travel at the request of churches and religious councils.

Your prejudices certainly do you no credit

BTW - please show me any statement made by me to support your following claim:
"Mr Singer, is constantly saying Iran must be bombed"

In the absence of any such evidence - please withdraw your claim and unconditionally apologise.

You know I think its amusing.
The way the pro-Israel folk scream anti-semite at any criticism of Israel.

You make yourselves look real pathetic because as far as I can see the criticism we put forward is genuinely warranted.

The only logical explanation is that you guys are mentally retarded in some way.

You carry on like a bunch of girls simply because someone else says something you don't agree with.

Geoff said it perfectly "I sleep well at night knowing I do not support murderers from either side"

You want to argue, then argue the documents I posted on the other thread.

I think its fairly obvious who is behind the mess.

David, Human rights and democratic organisations are just front groups for foreigners who wish to destabilize the country.

And on face value, I wouldn't trust either side on the subject or Iran.

Armchair Critic:

It might be easy to assume that anyone who does not agree with you is mentally retarded, but the logical explanation is far simpler. In his posts, your comrade, Geoff of Perth, makes a plethora of outrageous claims, yet provides no evidence to back them up, which is exactly what I was pointing out in my post. I notice that still, neither you nor Geoff, have addressed any of my points.

Frankly I could not care less whether Geoff sleeps peacefully at night, that’s for him to know and for me not to care about, although if I had to guess he is quite likely haunted every night by images of Zionists and/or Jews gathering at that cemetery in Prague and plotting to destroy his imaginary perfect world.

G'day Avw

I think the International Jewish Conspiracy, and the RSPCA, will need to give one syllable commands to Armchair Critic.

He's special.

Hey Pete,

You are probably not wrong there.
Anyway, off to my beauty sleep. Unlike Geoff & co, I sleep soundly at night without any nightmares of old rabbis conspiring around gravestones in the dead of night.

Dear Mr Singer, When reading English, it's essential to take note of the commas. I wrote: "Israel, Mr Singer, is constantly saying Iran must be bombed." That means the sentence has to be read ...Israel is constantly saying Iran must be bombed. I inserted your name to indicate to whom I was speaking.

We don't have to provide you evidence every single time, were entitled to our opinion.

Truthfully, just about everything Israel accuses anyone else of, it does itself.

You can start here and tell me why Israel is so great.

http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-of-iraq.html

Look ybgirp

I don't know what your problem is.

Western forces have Bombed/are Bombing:

- Iraq
- Yemen
- Libya
- Afghanistan
- Lebanon
- Pakistan (killer drones)
- and now Syria (Thankyou Mr Abbott)

Everywhere BUT Israel.

So why not bomb Iran? Who's counting?

Avw if you read the short essay from the link below you will see the Israli/US Middle East destruction for what it really was and is:

https://medium.com/dan-sanchez/clean-break-to-dirty-wars-d5ebc5fda9f9

Geoff..

You could argue with them that the sky is blue and they would fight you tooth and nail to say its green.

- I've come to accept that you cant expect to get logical sense from the Pro-Israel people, no matter how logical or reasonable the concerns put forward are.

They wont even respond to our concerns or arguments, but they expect the whole entire world to bow down to theirs.

Like I said earlier.. everything Israel accuses anyone else of its been guilty of itself.

It accuses others of covertly making nuclear bombs.
But thats what it did in Dimona 55yrs ago.

It accuses other countries leaders of killing their own people.
But thats what they did to the Sephardic Jews in Iraq in 1950.

It accuses others of racism,
But thats also how they themselves treat Arab Jews.

It reminds everyone constantly of the Holocaust, even though all the Nazi's are dead,
(and no-one is responsible for anything that happened before they were born)
But has been committing atrocities on the Palestinian people for generations.

They claim to be democratic, but had a single government radio and tv station spewing hate towards Arabs for 30years.
- And they aren't even capable of real democracy, with a ban on intermarriage.

They promote immigration in other countries, but allow none in their own.

They've been responsible for covertly murdering royal families and killing millions of people, slave trading, organised crime, manipulation of governments, and money markets.

And in recent times held a covert foreign policy that sought to destabilise nations and displace millions.
And they succeeded.

What exactly is the price that Israel wants the world to pay for it's belief that it should rule over mankind?

You're right Avw

There's nothing like the smell of fallout in the morning. See Israel's own nuclear toymaking https://youtu.be/F04-Zzoij8Y?t=2m35s

Poida

Geoff:

Thank you for finally providing some background to your assertions.
I have read the link you provided, twice. Predictably, it tells half the story, with a deliberate intent to portray the narrative you favour.

Let’s look at some of the items:

- The writer asserts that Israel designed to bomb and invade Lebanon back in 2006. The fact that the war broke out as a direct response to an attack by Hezbollah on Israel is not mentioned even once

- He further writes that Israel dispossessed three quarter of a million Arabs with trucks and gunshots over their heads, completely ignoring the fact that a large number of those who left did so voluntarily as advised by their leaders, in the hope of returning with a conquering army. He also ignores the fact that three quarter of a million Jews were also dispossessed from Arab countries around the same period, and fled to Israel. While the Jewish refugees were welcome in Israel and became citizens, Arab refugees were shunned by their Arab neighbours and remained refugees

- He then claims that the Arabs left behind (in Israel presumably) are suffering a rigid apartheid state. No evidence is provided for this claim, and the fact that repeated surveys find that large numbers of Israeli Arabs prefer staying residents of Israel to becoming residents of a Palestinian state is not cited

- The 1967 “war of aggression” in which Israel conquered the rest of formerly-British Palestine is referred to, without mentioning that it was Jordan who fired the first shots. Also ignored is the fact that some 80% of the original British Palestine was (and still is) in Jordanian hands

Cont -->

--> Cont

- The writer suggests that the “tragedy” of 1967 drove the Palestinians to radicalisation (carefully avoiding the word terrorism), again failing to mention that Palestinian radicalisation and terrorism actually started many years earlier (Arafat started Fatah in the late 1950s)

I’m not an expert on the politics of the Middle East . But if I can find so many issues with this article, I’m sure there are plenty more. The writer is very skilful in presenting half-truths and one-sided stories to build the desired narrative.

Of course, nothing in this article addresses the questions I asked you in my previous post. Let me repeat them here for you:

- Why do you claim that Israel is an apartheid state?
- How is Israel facilitating genocide on the Palestinians in Gaza, especially considering that their numbers are increasing exponentially?
- How did the Zionists orchestrate the Iranian coup in the 1950s?
- Why do you say Israel is illegitimate?
- What is so special about that date that makes it illegitimate? (this one really bugs me)

Feel free to provide more links.

Armchair Critic:

I’m sorry that you are unable to make any logical sense when reading my posts. I am not really sure how I can make it any easier for you.

As for not responding to concerns or arguments, I am still struggling to get any response from either you or Geoff to the questions I posed.

Regarding your latest post:

Would you care to elaborate about what Israel did to Sephardic Jews in Iraq in 1950? Facts would be nice, rather than opinions and conjecture.

As for all that hatred that was allegedly spewing via state radio and tv to the Arabs, do you have any idea about the level of hatred and intimidation spewed from Arab radio and tv stations towards Israel during those same 30 years? Do you have any idea about the hatred and intimidation still being spewed by some of those Arab radio and tv stations towards Israel to this day? Yes, it’s convenient to look at one only side of the story to justify your argument.

The restriction of inter-racial marriage is indeed a law left over from the dark ages, but what does it have to do with being a democracy? Australia does not allow same-sex marriage, does this mean we are not a democracy? At any rate, inter-racial unions done overseas are recognised in Israel.

“They’ve been responsible for covertly murdering…millions…manipulation of governments and money markets”

Finally you are showing your true colours again. The only thing missing here is that Prague cemetery. I won’t bother responding to this.

//no matter how logical or reasonable the concerns put forward are.//

It's not the logical or reasonable concerns that we object to. What people find objectionable are the ludicrous concerns: the paranoid conspiracy theories. And the fact that you only make these hyperbolic and absurd statements about Israel rather than Palestine and Israel suggests that you aren't just the sort of gullible person easily taken in by any old conspiracy theory, just the ones that confirm your out-dated prejudices about Jews.

For example, we all know that Israel has nukes. This is a reasonable concern. Nukes concern me regardless of their nationality, and we should be dismantling all the damn things post haste. I note, however, that you only seem to be worried about Israeli nukes. Lots of countries have nukes. The scariest ones are the North Koreans, who are properly mental.

On the other hand, we all know that Israel doesn't engage in slave trading. Demonstrably false propaganda like that make it obvious that you're less interested in opposing questionable Israeli policy than you are in simply trying to demonise them. Here's a tip: you might have more success in convincing people it's not all about the Jews if you throw in a few ludicrous claims about Palestine. Here are some examples:

Hamas use sonic weapons even though they're banned.
Hamas assassinated John Lennon.
Palestine are secretly attempting to take over the world by controlling international banking cartels, and the Illuminati are helping them.

Comments like these will just make you seem like one of the many loony conspiracy theorists on the forum, instead of a loony anti-Semite.

//What exactly is the price that Israel wants the world to pay for it's belief that it should rule over mankind?//

Oh, and you should avoid spouting nonsense like that.

Im not sure I can articulate all my thoughts in the right way, but I'll try.

Firstly I want to make the point that even though I am critical of Israel, that doesn't mean I'd support the persecution of Jewish people.

I'm sorry if my criticism invokes a fear of persecution, I assure you this is not my intention.

I think that the Pro-Israel people need to see things realistically, and I'm yet to truly see any real evidence of it.

If a Pro-Israel person makes a point that I think is reasonable, I'll accept and acknowledge it, but I don't see any of the same from the other side, ever.

I think that the Pro Israel tactics of demanding evidence, answering questions with more questions, attacking the person making the comments, attempting to discredit them or the poison the well tactics are really not going to help you win respect with non-Jews in the long run.

It just makes you look more guilty, and you're only going to make things worse for yourselves.
You should consider this.

Now you can fool a lot of uninformed idiots, but I think its a lot harder for you to ever be able to fool people like me or Geoff for example who have taken the time to look into things a least a little bit deeper.

The only way you are truly going to earn the respect of others is to come clean with your mistakes, answer the criticisms you all constantly avoid and turn over a new leaf and try to act like reasonable moral (and non-manipulative) people.

My mum taught me if you always do as you always done then you'll always get what you always got.

Avw,
I could repond to at least some of your criticisms, but its a waste of time on some level because people like yourself would never acknowledge it anyway.

You can hold the position that the author from the link I posted earlier only amounts to opinions and conjecture..
But let me ask you if every non-Jew on the planet read that story would they all hold the opinon that its simply opinions and conjecture??

There lies your real problem.
Your position is unrealistic, people will untimately judge you anyway.

Level of hatred spewed towards Israel from Arab countries...
Yep, you make a valid point, I'm sure there 2 sides to that story.

Israel aspires to be a "Jewish" state.
It has a right to rule its nation however it chooses but being a Jewish state kind of realistically means that it can't really be a democatic state at the same time.
(forget the ban on intermarriage - for the point of democracy I just went with a different angle)

As for what happened in Russia do you deny it happened or just don't like that I know about it??

I'm sorry I'm not aware of the Prague cemetary incident.

Really let me ask How do you expect non-Jews to react to this kind of stuff:
“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel. That is why gentiles were created.”

Combine that with all the power and influence over money, media and politics and you can't realistically say we are the unreasonable ones.

Our criticism and questions are valid enough.

Armchair Critic:

"You can hold the position that the author from the link I posted earlier only amounts to opinions and conjecture..
But let me ask you if every non-Jew on the planet read that story would they all hold the opin[i]on that it[']s simply opinions and conjecture??"

Ok just to be clear, my previous comments about the external link and its author were addressed to Geoff and the link he provided, not your link. This is why I started that post with "Geoff", rather than "Armchair Critic". Feel free to address my comments now that you have the correct context.

"...being a Jewish state kind of realistically means that it can't really be a democ[r]atic state at the same time."

Why? Do they prevent non-Jews from celebrating their faith?

"As for what happened in Russia do you deny it happened or just don't like that I know about it??"

I must be missing something. Previously we were talking about Jews in Iraq. Why have we switched to Russia now?

"...let me ask How do you expect non-Jews to react to this kind of stuff:
"Goyim were born only to serve us..."

In the same way that I react to it: dismiss it as ramblings of a religious fanatic. You see, just because there are some religious fanatics in Judaism, does not mean that all Jews hold the same opinions. Many of the crusaders were religious fanatics, does that make you a fanatic too if you're a Christian? Irish Catholics murdered repeatedly in the name of religion. Does this mean all Catholics are fanatics? We all know of the deeds of Islamic fanatics, are all Muslims the same? There are plenty of examples of fanatic Buddhists and Hindus as well. Does this make the whole world fanatic?

"Combine that with all the power and influence [that Jews have] over money, media and politics..."

Ok here you go into your "I hate all those evil Jews" mode again. I'll leave you to it.

There are different definitions of democracy. The definitions vary with time and the condition of society. In current terms the Athenian democracy would not be called a democracy by today's standards as no women and only a small proportion of the men had the right to participate in public decisions. In my opinion a democracy must have separation of religion and state. I do not consider Australia to be fully democratic with chaplains in the public schools and state subsidies to religious schools. In Israel there are few schools in which Jews and non-Jews go to school together. The Haredim or ultra-orthodox do not even go to school with other Jews. Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist states make distinctions between Jews and non-Jews, Christians and non-Christians, Muslims and non-Muslims, Hindus and non-Hindus and Buddhist and non-Buddhists. IMHO a democratic state does not make distinctions among its citizens on the basis of ethnicity or religion and has separation of religion and state. Israel has an independent judiciary, a free press and other democratic features. However, it cannot be a full democracy as long as it is a Jewish state.

Armchair Critic and Geoff, I salute you.

//Combine that with all the power and influence over money, media and politics and you can't realistically say we are the unreasonable ones.//

We can when you make stupid unreasonable comments like that. Everybody knows that it isn't some shadowy Jewish conspiracy secret controlling money, media and politics.

It's the Freemasons. Well, why not? Makes about as much sense as loony conspiracy theories about Jews controlling the world. Pull your head in, you clown. People are laughing at you.

"CHAIRMAN: Now, let us return to the Arab claim. You know well the Arab claim and the basis for it?

Mr. BEN GURION: Yes.

CHAIRMAN: It can be expressed very shortly. It is a claim based on the possession of the land for a considerable period of time and the right of self-government of the people of the land. What is your answer to this claim?

Mr. BEN GURION: My answer to that claim is the answer which was given not only by us but by human conscience almost in the whole world. The same claim was made almost twenty-five years ago. The reply was that you cannot judge this country which has a special history and special conditions which cannot be found anywhere else, and the relations of the Jews of this country cannot be judged by a rule applied to other countries not having the same unique conditions. Really, it is a unique case. You have first of all the people who were here a very, very long time ago; you know that. I can give you the Arab case. I understand the Arab case and I fully realize it. It is very simple. They state they do not care what happened, and nobody ought to care what happened fifteen hundred or two thousand years ago. We are here. We are not here from yesterday; we were here for centuries. We are the majority, and we have a right to self-determination. We will decide, just as the people in the United States or the people in Canada, whether to allow or not to allow immigrants. The fact that Jews were here some two thousand years ago is the same as the Roman legions having been in England some two thousand years ago, or when Arabs were in Spain fourteen or so many centuries ago. That is their claim. It is simple. Not one but many nations in the world did not accept that claim because they were faced with a unique case which is not as simple as that." (1947)

League of Nations rejected the Arab claim (1922)

Mr Singer Quotes Ben Gurion: "The fact that Jews were here some two thousand years ago is the same as the Roman legions having been in England some two thousand years ago, or when Arabs were in Spain fourteen or so many centuries ago. That is their claim. It is simple."
Yes, it is simple, and any Roman who today used that fact to claim the right to rule England, or any Arab that used that fact to claim the right to take over Spain would be laughed out of court.
Semitic Jews have a case, as do the Semitic Palestinians, as many of their ancestors have lived in the area forever, but the Ashkenazim Jews cannot claim any such heritage.

Ttbn you stated "Israel is the West's only ally in the Middle East. Rather than trying to save Muslim countries from themselves, our duty lies with Israel."

Why do we need allies in the Middle East, our proxy, the U.S. Is there trashing the place overtly and covertly with the full blessing of Israel, no need to provide links or evidence, it's blatantly obvious to anyone that this is the case.

I nearly stopped responding to this article when labelled an Antisemite, trotting out this old line just shows how pathetic and immature the pro-Isral lobbiest brigade has become.

I will repeat, "I do not hate Jews" I am friends with quite a few.

I just hate the hypocrisy of the current Isralei government efforts to murder, maim and generally kill men, women and children, to illegally steal land based on an archaic Zionistic doctrine so out of place in modern society, and all with the tacit approval of the U.S. And other western vassal states, too immature to stand up to Israel and finally say no, when is enough going to be enough, not anytime soon under the current Zionist regime in Israel.

#ybgirp

You state:

"Yes, it is simple, and any Roman who today used that fact to claim the right to rule England, or any Arab that used that fact to claim the right to take over Spain would be laughed out of court."

Ben-Gurion's answer to you:

"You cannot compare it with Spain and the Arabs. Can you find a single Arab in the world who cares to go back to Spain? Can you find a single Arab in the world who will spend a penny for Spain? Can you find a single Arab in the world who dreams of Spain? What has he to do with Spain? He has his own country. Many kinds of people come from many countries, but here you have a unique case without any parallel in history. Here is a people who for many centuries were dreaming of this country. They might have found a country anywhere else, but no, and they never gave up their claim. It is unique. Also, the case of Palestine is unique. It is not the same. We did not say it alone, but the entire civilized world said that while the Arabs were liberated in various territories there was room for the Jews in Palestine. The Jews are connected with this country. We recognize their connexion. They are coming back. They have a right to come back."

The more you carp at the entire civilised world's decision in 1922 that led to the Arabs ending up with sovereignty in 99.9% of the liberated Ottoman territories whilst the Jews got an entitlement to the remaining 0.1% - the more your Jew-hatred is exposed for all to see.

The Arabs have always coveted that tiny 0.1% - one third of Tasmania - and the Jews' entitlement to have their own country amoung 22 Arab countries. Look where it has got the Arabs - and the world in 2015.

Accepting the umpire's 1922 decision - as confirmed by the United Nations in 1947 after Ben-Gurion's appearance - would serve you well.

Game set and match.

David Singer,
So what if the Romans don't' want England, that wasn't the point. As Geoff has attempted to point out, disliking the policies of the Israeli government is not the same thing as hating Jews. A very large number of Israelis' agree with him, just as vast numbers of Australians despise our government for their treatment of refugees on Manus Island and Nauru, and also for their ongoing paternalism towards indigenous Australians. It doesn't mean we hate Christians. Did you get that point? Secular governments attempt to base decisions on things other than religious beliefs. It doesn't always work, but is better than living in a theocracy. It seems that Jews see themselves as Jews first, and citizens of a country last, which is one of the reasons they have been viewed with less than kind eyes by every country in which they resided. It's not uncommon to hear, I am a Jewish Australian. Why not an Australian Jew? Why mention religion at all? My only real problem with Israel is their attempt to justify atrocities by the use of historical/religious arguments. Compared to the evils of British and other empire building nations' mass murders, rapes, tortures, war, evictions, taking all the land, water, and all the other vile things they did to indigenous people while constructing their foul empires, Israel's behaviour towards their neighbours doesn't rate a mention.
The horrors committed past and present by the USA in Central and South America are much worse than anything Israel has done. Russian atrocities in Chechnya. The ongoing vile horror of the Congo... Israel is just a bit player doing what humans have always done when they want something. It's not new. If the Israeli government just said, 'We want this land, and we'll do what it takes to keep it' there might be less of a fuss.
And stop being so precious about your religion. I don't find Anglicans weeping and wailing that I'm Anti Anglican when I criticise them for not paying tax on corporate profits.

David Singer,
The feeling I get from the legal arguments of the creation of Israel is this:

Apparently there was an indiginous Australian woman somewhere in my family tree about 5 generations back on my fathers side.

- Lets say that her great great grandfather once took a crap on the property where your house now sits.

And I decided that because of this I have some historical right to go back there (your place).
I'll set up a big marquee on your front lawn.
I'll bring all my mates, we'll set up a big bonfire and bring the motorbikes.. we'll get a pig going on the spit and maybe when I'm half drunk I'll try to do some donuts on my trail bike on your lawn.. Kids running around the street swearing etc.. Be assured, were going to have a rowdy time.

And of course you'll probably object to this and call the cops, but it'll do no good because I already paid off the local mp's and councilman who are supportive of indiginous affairs.

So you'll be up on your balcony chucking things at us... (thats if you have one) at which point we'll have to take matters into our own hands...

For our 'inverted commas' safety...
We had to take over your house and force you to live down in your garden shed..

It's ok though, because we don't actually police your garden shed.
We allow you to have autonomous rule there....

It's stupid... Of course I don't have any claim to your land.
(Even if some distant relative of mine did set foot there)

That's about as strong as your legal arguments really are... On face value..
Like the Druids have a claim to rule England.

But I'm not completely unreasonable.
I DO think Israel does have SOME claim to the land.

But how can anyone recognise you, legally, when you haven't even defined your borders and you won't recognise the existing inhabitants of the land either?

And why should the Palestinians be nice after the way you treated them??

Toni,
Sorry I didnt reply earlier.. I hit my post maximum.
"What people find objectionable are the ludicrous concerns: the paranoid conspiracy theories."

Yes I did firstly learn more from a conspiracy theory point of view, sorry but thats the way it is.. Though I wouldn't like to think Im taken in by disinfo that easily, I do look things up.

If I'm not so critical of the Palestinians, its because on some level I believe they have a right to resist whilst under occupation, this isn't because I'm a Jew hater, its because I try to accept things for what they genuinely are.

When mentionin the nukes earlier it wasnt because I had an opinion of Israel owning nukes, but of Israel's hypocricy when it points the finger at others.

By all accounts, I understand that Israel was attacked by 7 Arab armies and Ben Gurion feared all the Arabs rising against Israel all at once.

I can understand why Israel felt its security would be enhanced by a nuclear deterrent and to their credit they have never used them.

But they do exert the power of having them and of the US having their backs in the manner they arrogantly go about things.

When I mentioned slave trading it was in more of a historical sense.
But from what I understand slavery and sex slavery does still exist on some level in Israel.

It may seem as thought I'm attempting to demonise, (on some level I guess I am) but this isnt actually what I'm trying to achieve. That is if I'm actually trying to achieve anything other than simply holding an opinion. What I am actually doing is shining a light on Israels bad side, in the hope that common sense, morality and decency will prevail.

#ybgirp, #armchair critic, #Geoff of Perth, #davidf

Please answer two questions:

1. Do you accept the unanimous verdict of the League of Nations in 1922 and the recommendation of the United Nations in 1947 recognising the right of the Jewish people to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in Palestine.

2. If your answer to 1 is "No": do you agree with the following two statements:

(a) "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day" (Hamas Charter)

(b) "The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void." (PLO Covenant)

Please try to keep your replies to "Yes" or "No"

Oh, very droll, Mr Singer. Have you stopped beating your wife? Answer me; Yes or No!
I'll accept the unanimous verdict of the League of Nations in 1922 and the recommendation of the United Nations in 1947 recognising the right of the Jewish people to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in Palestine, when Israel accepts every one of the scores of other UNO recommendations regarding such things as the legal borders they should accept , not building illegal settlements on Palestinian land, not constructing that vile wall on Palestinian land.... Either you accept all the UN recommendations, or you accept none, make up your mind.

Dear David Singer,

You are not in a law court cross-examining a witness. Those answering you are free to answer you in the way they prefer. I will answer you in my own way.

I am a dual citizen of Australia and the United States. Those are the only countries I have a right to live in. I think separation of religion and state is necessary to have a democracy, and I prefer democracy to other forms of government. The separation is greater in the US than it is in Australia. The separation is greater in Australia than it is in Israel. The lack of separation is so great in Israel that I don't think Israel can reasonably be considered a democracy.

I think no country should differentiate among its citizens on the basis of ethnicity or religion. I don't think that is right even though some international organisation or tribunal may accept it. A Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist state cannot also be democratic. I prefer living in a democratic country but want to live in peace with other countries whether or not they are democratic.

I have ancestors who have lived in Lithuania, the United States, Belorussia and the United Kingdom. Since I am a Jew I may have had ancestors who lived what is now Israel. I don't think I have a right to live in any country because an ancestor of mine lived there. The only countries I have a right to live are the United States and Australia. As a citizen of the United States I am proud of my president who is interested in peaceful relations with Iran and Cuba in contrast to past hostilities. Neither the United States, Iran nor Cuba is perfect, but it is better to exchange diplomats rather than send in an army.

Like you Obama is also a lawyer, but I prefer a lawyer who is interested in trying to make a more peaceful world to one like you who is interested in winning an argument by legalese. Winning an argument does nothing to make a better world.

#ybgirp

I have never beaten my wife but I will never stop beating you until you answer "yes" or "no" to these two questions:

1. Do you accept the unanimous verdict of the League of Nations in 1922 and the recommendation of the United Nations in 1947 recognising the right of the Jewish people to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in Palestine.

2. If your answer to 1 is "No": do you agree with the following two statements:

(a) "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day" (Hamas Charter)

(b) "The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void." (PLO Covenant)

How bizarre that you try and condition your accepting decisions made in 1922 and 1947 upon my accepting decisions made many decades after then.

Let's deal with 1922 and 1947 first

#david f

You state:
" Since I am a Jew I may have had ancestors who lived what is now Israel. I don't think I have a right to live in any country because an ancestor of mine lived there."

Wrong.

As a Jew you do indeed have the right to live in Israel because that is the law of the land.

Jews have a legal right to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in former Palestine because that right was unanimously conferred on them by the League of Nations and article 80 of the UN Charter after 400 years of occupation by the Ottoman Empire was ended.

You might not think it was fair that the Arabs got 99.99% and the Jews 0.1% of the liberated Ottoman territories - but that decision vested legal rights in the Jewish people to territory that had been first stripped from them by conquest over 2000 years ago.

It is indeed an amazing revival and resurrection that apparently the Jew-haters simply cannot fathom and will never accept.

I am still waiting for some rational explanation from you or other virulent correspondents as to why. The territory in question is the size of a postage stamp compared to the huge tracts of territory possessed by 21 Arab States with amazing oil-wealth buried thereunder.

The Palestinian Arabs already occupy 78% of the land originally promised to the Jews by the San Remo Conference and Treaty of Sevres in 1920 - and taken away from them by that League of Nations decision two years later. Isn't that a fair enough subdivision? 90 years of struggle for the remaining 22% has led to what? Death and suffering - and more death and suffering - for both Jews and Arabs.

The PLO decision to term this 1922 decision "null and void" has brought the Palestinian Arabs nothing after 51 years of rabid Jew-hating rejectionism. Time they - and you - woke up.

Dear David Singer,

Since I am not an Israeli the law of that land does not apply to me unless I submit to that jurisdiction. As a lawyer you know that the area of jurisdiction in general does not apply to those who live outside its jurisdiction. I found it objectionable that an Israeli official objected to Jews being classed as refugees because they could always come to Israel. He didn't seem to care whether or not the Jew wanted to come to Israel.

I prefer countries which have a separation of religion and state and am politically active in Australia to see that Australia has a greater separation.

It is not fair that I whose ancestors may have lived in Israel a long time ago can be admitted if I want to go there, and people who were driven from that land cannot go back home. Benny Morris pointed out in his book that some Arabs were forced out of their villages during the war in which Israel became independent. It seems only fair that they should have priority over me to live there. I have been lied to and resent it. I was told that Arabs voluntarily left what was to become Israel to return with victorious Arab armies and believed it until Benny Morris pointed out that it was a lie.

Law is not always the same as justice, and I think the Law of Return is an example.