Herodotus may be called the father of history but he did not engender or belong to a nation with historical consciousness. He found few disciples for his aim to plumb the causes of the conflicts between Greeks and Barbarians in a culture that consulted the Orphic Oracle in all important political matters.

My article on resisting mythological consciousness explains this in detail.

Self awareness is necessarily historical. Otherwise it is limited by involvement in the cycles of nature and of ahistorical mythology. Israel was the only culture to make this break and it did it as far back as 600BCE.

Sumer and Egypt were not historically conscious in the way that Israel was. Where are their histories, where is their contemplation of the past and their projection to the future? They were just as caught in timeless myth as all of the other nature cultures. These cultures, including that of Greece, have been dead for thousands of years, witness to their failure to deal with time, particularly in their attitude to how the past feeds into the future.

Israel is still a nation, there are still observant Jews and Christians, witness to their ability to deal adequately with time. The consistent bias in this thread against anything to do with Christianity amounts to cultural self hatred since most of the cultural achievements of the West are linked to Christianity.

Sells wrote: The consistent bias in this thread against anything to do with Christianity amounts to cultural self hatred since most of the cultural achievements of the West are linked to Christianity.

Dear Sells,

It is absolute nonsense that most of the cultural achievements of the West are linked to Christianity. The advent of the Dark Ages was marked by the murder of Hypatia, a philosopher, scientist, mathematician and teacher, by a Christian mob. With the Enlightenment and the questioning of religion Europe emerged from the Dark Ages. We are still living on the cultural achievements in Greece and Rome before the Roman Empire adopted Christianity. The Renaissance was characterised by a re-examination of the pre-Christian classic culture. The Dark Ages were marked by the dominance of Christianity.

Christianity is not entirely evil but there is much evil in its opposition to science and culture. The adoption of Christianity by Rome was marked by the destruction of pagan temples and art by Christians. The Reformation was marked by the destruction of Catholic statues, architecture and paintings by Protestant mobs. Catholic Rome burned Giordano Bruno at the stake in 1600. Bruno speculated that there were other solar systems than earth. Protestant Geneva under Calvin burned Michael Servetus at the stake in 1553. Servetus discovered pulmonary circulation.

The cultural and scientific progress of Europe since the Enlightenment has been characterised by the emergence from repressive Christianity.

Christian apologists rewrite history to claim that Christianity fostered what it actually destroyed.

Hmm, let me see. The development of art in the West beginning with Giotto was Church art and that continued apace especially in Holland, Italy. All the great renaissance artists worked for the Church.

The music of Byrd and Tallis and J.S Bach music for the church, the development of polyphony, we could go on.

The major composers wrote Masses, Mozart, Beethoven etc.

The Italian language was formed by the work of Dante, the German by Luther.

All the early European philosophers were Christian, Augustine, Aquinas, Bacon, Malebranche, even Locke in his strange way and Hobbes in his own strange way.

The culture of Europe was essentially Christian, who can doubt that?

Among writers Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Shakespeare: on and on a Christian influence.

Even natural philosophy (now called erroneously “science”) had its basis on the Christian tradition and the nominalist push that did away with universals so that individual things could be investigated.

David, your argument is selective and demonstrates the consistent and erroneous bias against Christianity that can only be called prejudice

When a flower blossoms from a cowpat, I guess the cowpat was in some way partially responsible.

However, flowers can also bloom without cowpats.

You can marvel at the flower and celebrate the cowpat, but I don't.

You may think that's bigotry, but then I did grow up in a christian tradition.

Dear Sells,

I have not denied that the culture of Europe is essentially Christian. I think Europe has suffered because its culture is essentially Christian. I have not denied that great art has been produced under Christianity. What I have denied is your claim that European art and culture stem from Christianity. That claim denies the tremendous influence of the pre-Christian classical age. That claim denies the consistent hostility to science displayed by the church. That claim denies the fact that the Christian dominant Dark Ages largely put a stop to cultural and scientific progress. That claim denies the fact that the Renaissance was sparked by a return to Europe's pre-Christian cultural roots. That claim denies the fact that the Enlightenment which caused the resumption of the cultural and scientific progress slowed by the Dark Ages was characterised by a challenge to Christianity.

I contend that the cultural progress of Europe would have much been greater had the Roman Empire not adopted Christianity as its official religion. I have admitted that there is good in Christianity, but I contend that its evil outweighs the good. Faith in unprovable propositions is an enemy to reason.

I think you are a good man taken prisoner by religion which has caused you to be an apologist for the unjustifiable.

Dear Sells,

Christian culture has produced the towering figures of Bach and Michelangelo along with many others. Does that outweigh the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Wars of the Reformation, the Holocaust which centuries of Christian hatred made possible, the opposition to science which Christian authorities felt challenged church dogma, the extirpation of indigenous cultures along with the people who formed those cultures, the massacres, the expulsions and the other manifestations of Christian intolerance?

We have different opinions in that area.