Rhosty

You say Greece “needs to get serious about reducing debt and a sense of entitlement and tax avoidance on an enormous scale”.

There is evidence that for decades it has not been serious.
There is little realistic expectation it can now.

You are right about the tax avoidance. Also their ability to retire on a comfortable pension at an age most of us would consider “middle age”.

Greece cannot service the debt and should never have borrowed.
But borrow it did because the trusting Germans believed the Greek national accounts which they were shown.

History shows that the Germans were deceived.

Hasbeen

You ask “Will it take 5, 10, or perhaps 15 years before Oz is in the same boat” ?

I think all we need are economic illiterates running the nation and we’ll be in the same boat in under 10 years.

Recent economic illiteracy was quickly forgotten in NSW. How many forgot the $600m compensation cheque cut by former Labor Premier Kristina Keneally for her government’s mismanagement of the rail project called “Metro West”.

That’s right.

$600 m of taxpayer's funds paid in compensation. And did the MSM remind voters in the run up to the recent election of that?

since the enforced austerity of a monetarist approach to "helping Greece", unemployment has hit 50% amongst young people. the debt to GDP ratio has gone from 120% to 140%, mainly because the economy has contracted.
nobody is mentioning the elephant in the room in all of this - that is that Greece should never have been allowed into the Euro club in the first place. it failed many of the designated criteria.
And why was it allowed entry? why good old self-interest on the part of Germany. By admitting its poor neighbours like Portugal, Greece and Italy, Germany was able to have the floating value of the euro arrive at a much lover level than the Mark because these poor economies served to drag the value of the euro down.
magically Germany had its cake and was able to eat it as well. German exports were cheaper because the basket cases admitted to the euro zone kept the euro lower that the Mark would have been. Win/win for Germany.
so let's not have any crocodile tears for the European banks. they were happy to have non conforming countries inside the tent when it suited their ends. now they have to suffer the consequences.
Reform of the Greek economy is not what this is about. yes it needs to happen but the Germans were quite happy to have it unreformed when it suited their purposes.
Jonathon to put forward the punishment option as the solution at this stage totally ignores history and the economic parameters around which this catastrophe was allowed to develop. Your narrow monetarist perspective serves neither Greece nor the cause of rational argument based upon context and history.

Hasbeen,

We'l never ever be in the same boat. Greece is in this mess because it joined the Euro. Australia didn't join the Euro and never will.

Once Greece gets chucked out of the Eurozone, they'll probably recover fairly quickly.

Shalmaneser,

It is not the austerity per se that has caused the problems in Greece. It is far more than that.

It is a culture where paying taxes is optional; where competition is non existent and where corruptions runs rife. Of course many hard working Greeks and pensioners are caught up in a system they despise, evidenced by 39& voting AGAINST Alexis Tsipras & Co.

You are right that the Greeks should not have joined the euro, but
you’re not arriving at the right conclusion when you say
“ it (Greek entry) failed many of the designated criteria”.

The fact is that it mislead, tricked and cheated its way in.
The Germans and French reviewed the set of accounts presentred to them by Greece and its bankers.

It is on those accounts that money was lent.

While for a period it did help Germany that the Club Med states were admitted into the eurozone, their admittance was always questionable.

You say I am “put[ting] forward the punishment option as the solution at this stage [and] totally ignores history and the economic parameters around which this catastrophe”.

I find it hard to comprehend how you can label why someone who is in default with little prospect of repayment as being “punished” by being told the terms of more money flowing their way.

The fact is they owe and they owe big.

Do you really think they can walk away from their debt? And if they do, who will lend them money to keep the nation solvent? Or do you seriously think they can now reform when for decades they have lived high off the German hog?

the lie that Greece cheated.
http://www.theguardian.com/global/2012/apr/26/greece-europe-north-south-divide
in any event it is beyond belief that the EU could have accepted what was a magical transformation from deficit to surplus in late nineties unless it wanted to believe it for its own purposes. and those purposes were a lower value for the euro which suited Germany down to the ground.

Yes, that's right, Goldman Sachs helped Greece fiddle the books so that
Greece could get into the EEC.
It seems possible that the Banks in Greece will not reopen for a long time.
They have almost no money and might well have to wait until Drachmas
are printed and coins minted.
One possibility is they might start using the US$ if they can find a source.
I could take a month or two to print new notes and a year to mint new
coins and modify all coin mechanisms.

An alternative might be to convert to a cashless society.
Now that would put the cat amoung the pidgeons !

A while back I saw a BBC TV item on people leaving the cities and
returning to villages and working on farms. I think we will see a lot
more of that as the economy reverts to the 19th century.