How appropriate that that the country that gave us democracy should be in this state. Democracy has reached its logical conclusion: the people think wealth comes from voting yourself a free helping from the common storehouse.

The only question confronting politicians at any time is how to kick the can down the road past the next election and onto someone else's watch. The people are sure there must be a big teat out there somewhere for them to suck on, and are determined to keep squalling for it.

Howeventually the parasite class and mentality grow larger than the productive class and mentality. A bit like Australia with its majority of people on welfare: a Platonic ideal for socialist politicians in a democracy.

Yet a good parasite does not destroy its host. And reality kicks in eventually, after the socialists have consumed enough capital, and laid waste and corruption into every corner of society's production and morality.

All the welfare states are unsustainable in their current paradigm, and the kick up the arse coming from the rising Asian states will be truly something to behold.

I don't believe Greece has any sort of future outside Europe!

And needs to get serious about reducing debt and a sense of entitlement and tax avoidance on an enormous scale.

Tax avoidance is the national game! A change to an unavoidable expenditure tax system would put some money in government coffers.

Tax avoiders are the real parasites trying to live on the endeavor and effort of others!

And are the ones making it impossible for Greece to service her debt!

The nation needs to be put to work earning essential export dollars for the national account; and as such turn the economy around!

Unemployed people are unproductive people! And the very last thing Greece needs right now.

They need to stay in the common market to retain their access to that market; the only way they might ever earn enough to lift them out of the current hole!
Rhrosty.

What do you reckon?

Will it take 5, 10, or perhaps 15 years before Oz is in the same boat?

It will probably be less than 10 years. Another Greece like collapse or 2 is probable in another couple of overextended welfare states before then. This will trigger another financial crisis far greater than the last, dry up our mining exports, leaving us no way of funding our welfare bill.

Do enjoy the party folks, it's a fool's paradise, just like the one the Greeks have been having.

I suggest you study up on how your grandparents survived the 1930s, to get ready for our future, unless we start cutting our spending to match our earnings right now. A most unlikely happening.

Ich bin ein Greichenlander.

Ich bin Charlie.

I wonder how long it will be before Greek "boat people" in Greek fishing boats start arriving on Australian beaches seeking "asylum" from whatever government takes over after Socialist Syrizia falls flat on it's face? The Greeks know that the public trough is still full in Australia, and they some of them probably can't wait to get their snouts and front trotters into it.

Shades of the "Greek conspiracy", which happened in Sydney, thirty years ago. In that matter, 400 "Greek/Australians" were falsely claiming the DSP after being confirmed as being "disabled" by a group of "Greek/Australian" doctors. After being charged, the Department of Public Prosecutions withdrew the charges, when it figured out that under Australian law, each of the 400 would have to be tried separately, at an average cost to the state of NSW of $1 million dollars per Greek.

There seems to be two types of Greeks, those that work hard and those who expect a free lunch. Because rather creditably for the Greeks, when the 400 were first initially arraigned in court to face the charges, a very large crowd of Greeks surrounded the courthouse and yelled abuse at the suspects, screaming that they had brought shame to all Greeks in Australia.

One may ask, when will the Muslim community do the same thing when it's home grown Jihadis get charged with terrorism and appear in court?

The Socialists have a new tactic for getting control of democratic countries, and it appears to be working. Just promise disadvantaged voters the moon paid for by the taxpayer, and keep finding ways to make the unproductive class expand until you get an electoral majority. If you have not got enough, just import them from overseas. Better still, just let them pay "people smugglers" and they can do it themselves. This will stimulate the economy no end as it creates jobs in the Social worker industry, trying to solve the insolvable social problems which could easilly have been avoided had we been more picky about who came to Australia

I think Greece will leave the Euro sooner or later, and probably sooner.

For the sake of teaching greedy bankers a lesson for issuing public currencies at a loan with interest, I hope the Greeks find a way to legally write that debt off entirely.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-17/greek-debt-committee-just-declared-all-debt-illegal-illegitimate-and-odious

I hope this teachers the bankers that austerity doesn't work.
You can't keep an economy going by taking all of the money out of the system.

We humans need to realise that this whole idea of private central banks issuing the public currencies as a loan with interest is destroying our nations.

Rhosty

You say Greece “needs to get serious about reducing debt and a sense of entitlement and tax avoidance on an enormous scale”.

There is evidence that for decades it has not been serious.
There is little realistic expectation it can now.

You are right about the tax avoidance. Also their ability to retire on a comfortable pension at an age most of us would consider “middle age”.

Greece cannot service the debt and should never have borrowed.
But borrow it did because the trusting Germans believed the Greek national accounts which they were shown.

History shows that the Germans were deceived.

Hasbeen

You ask “Will it take 5, 10, or perhaps 15 years before Oz is in the same boat” ?

I think all we need are economic illiterates running the nation and we’ll be in the same boat in under 10 years.

Recent economic illiteracy was quickly forgotten in NSW. How many forgot the $600m compensation cheque cut by former Labor Premier Kristina Keneally for her government’s mismanagement of the rail project called “Metro West”.

That’s right.

$600 m of taxpayer's funds paid in compensation. And did the MSM remind voters in the run up to the recent election of that?

since the enforced austerity of a monetarist approach to "helping Greece", unemployment has hit 50% amongst young people. the debt to GDP ratio has gone from 120% to 140%, mainly because the economy has contracted.
nobody is mentioning the elephant in the room in all of this - that is that Greece should never have been allowed into the Euro club in the first place. it failed many of the designated criteria.
And why was it allowed entry? why good old self-interest on the part of Germany. By admitting its poor neighbours like Portugal, Greece and Italy, Germany was able to have the floating value of the euro arrive at a much lover level than the Mark because these poor economies served to drag the value of the euro down.
magically Germany had its cake and was able to eat it as well. German exports were cheaper because the basket cases admitted to the euro zone kept the euro lower that the Mark would have been. Win/win for Germany.
so let's not have any crocodile tears for the European banks. they were happy to have non conforming countries inside the tent when it suited their ends. now they have to suffer the consequences.
Reform of the Greek economy is not what this is about. yes it needs to happen but the Germans were quite happy to have it unreformed when it suited their purposes.
Jonathon to put forward the punishment option as the solution at this stage totally ignores history and the economic parameters around which this catastrophe was allowed to develop. Your narrow monetarist perspective serves neither Greece nor the cause of rational argument based upon context and history.

Hasbeen,

We'l never ever be in the same boat. Greece is in this mess because it joined the Euro. Australia didn't join the Euro and never will.

Once Greece gets chucked out of the Eurozone, they'll probably recover fairly quickly.

Shalmaneser,

It is not the austerity per se that has caused the problems in Greece. It is far more than that.

It is a culture where paying taxes is optional; where competition is non existent and where corruptions runs rife. Of course many hard working Greeks and pensioners are caught up in a system they despise, evidenced by 39& voting AGAINST Alexis Tsipras & Co.

You are right that the Greeks should not have joined the euro, but
you’re not arriving at the right conclusion when you say
“ it (Greek entry) failed many of the designated criteria”.

The fact is that it mislead, tricked and cheated its way in.
The Germans and French reviewed the set of accounts presentred to them by Greece and its bankers.

It is on those accounts that money was lent.

While for a period it did help Germany that the Club Med states were admitted into the eurozone, their admittance was always questionable.

You say I am “put[ting] forward the punishment option as the solution at this stage [and] totally ignores history and the economic parameters around which this catastrophe”.

I find it hard to comprehend how you can label why someone who is in default with little prospect of repayment as being “punished” by being told the terms of more money flowing their way.

The fact is they owe and they owe big.

Do you really think they can walk away from their debt? And if they do, who will lend them money to keep the nation solvent? Or do you seriously think they can now reform when for decades they have lived high off the German hog?

the lie that Greece cheated.
http://www.theguardian.com/global/2012/apr/26/greece-europe-north-south-divide
in any event it is beyond belief that the EU could have accepted what was a magical transformation from deficit to surplus in late nineties unless it wanted to believe it for its own purposes. and those purposes were a lower value for the euro which suited Germany down to the ground.

Yes, that's right, Goldman Sachs helped Greece fiddle the books so that
Greece could get into the EEC.
It seems possible that the Banks in Greece will not reopen for a long time.
They have almost no money and might well have to wait until Drachmas
are printed and coins minted.
One possibility is they might start using the US$ if they can find a source.
I could take a month or two to print new notes and a year to mint new
coins and modify all coin mechanisms.

An alternative might be to convert to a cashless society.
Now that would put the cat amoung the pidgeons !

A while back I saw a BBC TV item on people leaving the cities and
returning to villages and working on farms. I think we will see a lot
more of that as the economy reverts to the 19th century.

Shalmaneser, it doesn't really matter whether Greece cheated or not; the fact is Greece knowingly borrowed a huge amount of money and at some point Greece has to start paying it back or face the consequences.

_________________________________

"A while back I saw a BBC TV item on people leaving the cities and
returning to villages and working on farms." - Bazz

Back in 80's there was a movement in the USA called Voluntary Simplicity that advocated getting willing welfare recipients to move back onto small rural properties with a goal of becoming somewhat self sufficient. The idea was that rather than proving welfare, the government should help those that choose to opt out of the workforce and welfare system; help via repayable low interest loans to buy the properties and food stamps rather than cash.