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The Forum > Article Comments > Prime Minister, it's time to boycott the ABC > Comments

Prime Minister, it's time to boycott the ABC : Comments

By Jonathan J. Ariel, published 26/6/2015

It's time the Liberal/Nationals manned up!

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The ABC should be abolished. It is nauseating propaganda. Broadcast media is not a legitimate function of government. And it should be obvious that the ABC has no intention of respecting or complying with its charter. Why should everyone else in the population be forced to pay for Labor and the Greens to have their own private toy and plaything?
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Friday, 26 June 2015 10:51:23 AM
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What a load of bunkum
Posted by John Ryan, Friday, 26 June 2015 11:07:51 AM
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Oh dear, That old chestnut..Reality has a left wing basis. Did the Libs have a problem with the guy that is the focus of the latest false outrage when he appeared on the Project?

I seem to remember the Libs saying a few months ago that people had the right to be bigots

The PM has found a way to avoid anybody looking at Liberal policies for a few days.He plays the ring wing media like a fiddle, but he generally to gutless to go on The ABC as they are not so sucked in.

Our dear leader attacked the Human rights commissioner a fortnight ago, the Courts last week and now the independent media. I see a pattern forming here, a little despot wannabe.

True Liberal should be marching in the streets.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Friday, 26 June 2015 11:08:45 AM
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The PM is too much of a coward to do anything about the ABC, and then there is the Left-wing clown, Turnbull, who is supposed to be the minister responsible for the ABC, but who likes to appear on it as often as he can. Pyne? An irritating little twerp, who also likes to appear on the ABC, and would appear on a Punch and Judy show in the park if there was anything in it for him. He is probably too wrapped up in himself to notice the atrocious behaviour of the ABC.

I'm sick of the huff and puff of a government complaining, rightly, about the bias and anti-Australian mindset of the ABC but doing nothing about. With their cowardly attitude, they deserve every thing they get.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 26 June 2015 11:16:41 AM
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Totally agree with John Ryan - this article is nothing but an attempt to justify the appalling anti-ABC sentiment of our big L liberals. The day that government policies and actions cannot be held up to scrutiny is the day I want out of here. While I don't agree with everything the ABC does I want to see them keep on doing everything they do. It is an essential contributor to our democracy, warts and all!
Posted by Ian D, Friday, 26 June 2015 11:25:12 AM
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I don't know where anyone got the idea that government propaganda channels are essential to democracy. The opposite is true.

Those who deny a left-wing bias in the ABC have got their heads well and truly up their arse, however even if it's true, that's no reason why they should not fund it themselves.

Why don't you Cobber?
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Friday, 26 June 2015 11:50:10 AM
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Well, obviously you'd say that, JKJ. After all, the ABC produces reports of fact and there is nothing worse than that for people like yourself who think that bluster and bluff is the epitome of argument.

Cue the rest of the LEGO/JKJ/ttbn sockpuppet clone army...
Posted by Craig Minns, Friday, 26 June 2015 11:57:51 AM
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Rabbott hasnt got the guts to appear on the ABC.
Without a script and a supportive interviewer he just ums and aghs and looks like the complete fool he is. Every ABC journalist is more than a match for an intellectual featherweight like rabbott. No wonder he only talks to the parrot or bolty et al.
Nothing but a bullying coward.
ELECTION NOW!
Posted by mikk, Friday, 26 June 2015 12:19:00 PM
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Hi there MIKK...

Could you put it any more elucidatory perhaps ?
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 26 June 2015 12:30:55 PM
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What's the problem with you 'knockers' of the ABC?
Do you watch its TV presentations in the hope that they will support your conservative bias?
The ABC is not left or right - it's very central, and those who guide its creative output often come from other politically rigid media operations where their freedom to report fully was limited; they appreciate the need for impartial and unbiased reportage.
Naturally, such a mammoth public media outlet cannot please all the audiences consistently, but 'pleasing' does not equate with 'suppression' of contentious viewpoints.
An oaf, a dork, a fool, will be seen as that because of body language, dress, appearance and attitude.
The ABC's audiences are not dumbed-down receptors of whatever party line is being pushed by those who want their own ineptitudes to stay hidden.
After all, it's our ABC - we pay for it and we support it, otherwisse it would have been wrapped up long ago.

Keep your grubby hands off its impartiality!
Posted by Ponder, Friday, 26 June 2015 1:02:27 PM
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oh but I do fund the the ABC JKJ through my taxes, just like i fund schools, and roads and hospitals. A independent media that is free from having to grovel to advertises is clearly needed in any Country.

Commercial media descends into shock Jock's and opinions pieces to get the readers eye, a bit like people stopping to watch a car crash. fact free and controversial.

The project has tried hard but they have had to go in for celebrity to keep the axe at bay.

Just because you know someone even more right wing then you JKJ doesn't make you a centrist.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Friday, 26 June 2015 1:43:10 PM
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I just don't agree with censorship whether it's done by soup or sushi. me I'll continue to watch what I like and speak my piece!

That said I agree with the minister and would pass the hat around in order to get the Islamist malcontent on his way!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 26 June 2015 2:05:38 PM
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A balanced and sensible article, on which the author, Jonathon Ariel, is to be commended.
The usual leftist nonsense, on this thread, that the contemptible distorted view of the left is somehow normal, and the sensible balanced views are right wing.
The ABC is not pro-Australian. It is pro-Left, and therefore anti-Australian.
The clown charged with managing the ABC circus, Mark Scott, made a pathetic attempt to justify the granting of audience to the fake anti-jihadist by dressing up the biased anti-Australian ABC policy as being pro- freedom of speech.
The next intolerable grub to be given a platform might be a paedophile, entitled, under ABC policy, to his views, and entitled to freedom of expression.
Scott has given ample grounds for his termination. He refuses to do his job.
Posted by Leo Lane, Friday, 26 June 2015 2:29:49 PM
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Leo Lane, have you considered a career in comedy?

You're a natural.
Posted by Craig Minns, Friday, 26 June 2015 2:36:16 PM
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Brilliant critique, Craig. You must have pushed yourself to the limit, to think that up.
You are not quite ready to go public, but give it a few decades, and you never know, you may develop your thought process to the point where you are able to come up with a presentable comment.
In the meantime, apply to join the ABC audience, as you seem to qualify, for that group.
Posted by Leo Lane, Friday, 26 June 2015 3:06:04 PM
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I can only work with the material available, Leo.

The particular specimen provided was especially threadbare.
Posted by Craig Minns, Friday, 26 June 2015 3:19:13 PM
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Here's a good quote if you need a laugh:

"The ABC is not left or right - it's very central, and those who guide its creative output often come from other politically rigid media operations where their freedom to report fully was limited; they appreciate the need for impartial and unbiased reportage."
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Friday, 26 June 2015 3:23:16 PM
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The problem is ,simply , the Greens and Lefties in the ABC cannot help themselves.

For some reason they think that it is their ABC.... not Our ABC.

The ABC should be stripped of ABC24 as well as all of its so called 'Current Affairs' style programs.

Take the ABC back to Music, Sport ,Childrens, Entertainment & Rural .. all its' former Core Products
Posted by Aspley, Friday, 26 June 2015 3:30:15 PM
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My word it is amazing how many rednecks come out of the woodwork when they have a chance to attack .
If by non biased they are really seriously alluding to Jones and Bolt it shows how sad they are.
Good onyer ABC, your my ABC
Posted by Robert LePage, Friday, 26 June 2015 3:52:13 PM
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Zaky Mallah showed himself up to be the little sh1t that he is, so what is the big deal. The minister said all that needed to be said. Why all the additional carry on is necessary, I do not know. What has interested me more than anything else is the procedure that QANDA use to elicit apparently spontaneous questions from the audience, although the extreme vitriol extended towards the ABC by some members of OLO worries me. Get a life people, the sky isn't about to fall in.
David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 26 June 2015 4:04:17 PM
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What is really scary for me, is that the very instant that the concept of free speech on our national, publicly-funded communicator makes a vaguely challenging appearance, we find the rabid fascist thought-police racing out of the woodwork and howling at the moon.

I'd rather see a misguided and noisy youth make a fool of himself on a serious and contentious topic, than witness the flag-draped monologue from our government's thought-police that is their inevitable knee-jerk reponse.

What, for heaven's sake, are you guys afraid of? Clearly, real life is far too complex for the mono-celled organism that constitutes the right-wing media. But people, try for once in your lives to think for yourself, and phrase your thoughts in terms other than slogans.

Strewth.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 26 June 2015 4:53:25 PM
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JKJ: Why should everyone else in the population be forced to pay for Labor and the Greens to have their own private toy and plaything?

JKJ: Those who deny a left-wing bias in the ABC have got their heads well and truly up their arse, however even if it's true, that's no reason why they should not fund it themselves.

Could not agree with you more.

VK3AUU: Zaky Mallah showed himself up to be the little sh1t that he is, so what is the big deal.

Actually, I’m glad Mallah outed himself on TV. He has shown Australia just what we are dealing with & what the future holds for Australians if the moslem problem isn’t dealt with, post haste. The New Security Laws are good start but still need to be tighter. Personally I support letting all those who wish to participate with ISIS go to Syria. Their leaving will make it that much safer for Australians. Of course they & their families must lose their Citizenship & never be allowed to return. Even those born that were born here.

VK3AUU: What has interested me more than anything else is the procedure that QANDA use to elicit apparently spontaneous questions from the audience.

There is no such thing as spontaneous questions from the Audience. Most of the Audience is invited if you put your name up as interested in attending. You are given a form to write your question on & this is vetted by the ABC. If you are chosen to ask a question you are given a card with your question on it. Otherwise keep your gob shut. The questions are also given to the Panel. This is to give the panel time to frame their replies. TV is all smoke & mirrors for the sake of making a good program.

I explained this procedure once before on another Forum & was howled down. Yesterdays (25/06/15) Courier Mail had an article on the procedure. I’ll take the howling back now, thank you.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 26 June 2015 5:14:23 PM
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I totally agree with Pericles on this one.

I watched "Q and A," on Monday evening and wasn't
too impressed with the young, misguided bloke.
Yes he did make a fool of himself and it should
have ended there but for the blabbering of the
Liberal Party MP who went out of his way to bait
the misguided and foolish young man.

Had the Liberal party MP not provoked the young man -
this show would not have received the unwarranted
publicity that it did. And the PM and his team's
added comments only made the situation worse and gave
this more importance than it warranted.

The fault lay with the adults here not the foolish,
misguided young man.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 26 June 2015 5:50:44 PM
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This argument will last as long we have the ABC. The people who believe that the ABC is shockingly and irredeemably biased to the Left, as I do, should stop watching for their own sanity, as I did. Forget reform. It's not going to happen.

Those people who believe that the ABC does not have a Left-wing bias are ignorant bigots, best left together grunting in their caves with a portrait of Tony Abbott and a handful of darts. They would understand that.

One of two things should be rooted out: the ABC or party politics. We would all be OK with one of them, but not both.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 26 June 2015 7:36:50 PM
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"The fault lay with the adults here not the foolish, misguided young man."

Even his defending counsel wouldn't try that one on. He'd get laughed out of court. LOL

The ABC is NOT, as its arrogant Managing Director imagines, solely accountable to itself.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 26 June 2015 7:48:57 PM
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Foxy <young misguided bloke>

Defending an organisation that wants to blow the legs and arms
off Australians with bomb attacks in cafes.

Oh yes, this guy is just so sweet and misguided.
He follows the male muslim code of Isis really well by
suggesting that any women who dare to question him should be gang-banged on a desk. His reference to two female journalists who dared to question a superior male like him.

Maybe we should have invited Hitler over during world war 2,
to go on the ABC and tell us why the war we were fighting with
Germany was our fault.

Honestly, I have enjoyed Q&A and admired the robust debates on that show, but in the last few weeks they have just lost the
plot. I come from a labour working class background, and
voted labour all my life, but the stupidity of the left wing
groups and the Labour Party in the last couple of years
has seriously got me shaking my head in disbelief.

I know they said that this bloke has written blogs saying,"don't join Isis," but he says something different in his tweets.
I think the blogs are just a smoke screen to throw Australian security off his trail. As they arrested him once and he only
escaped a long prison sentence because the laws didn't cover these
kind of offences at the time. Of course he is against any laws that do.
Posted by CHERFUL, Friday, 26 June 2015 7:51:59 PM
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The “concept of free speech” did not make an appearance, Pericles, the disingenuous Mark Scott, inappropriately attempted to label the result of his bias and incompetence “freedom of speech”. A clumsy attempt, which fooled no one with any sense, and nothing to do with freedom of speech.
It is ludicrous for someone with the herd mentality of a lefty like yourself, Pericles,to ask people to think for themselves. You have no comprehension of the meaning of the term, much less the ability to identify the mindless lefty slogans in your composition.

Robert le Page, if your next post is as indecipherable as the above you will qualify for my list of posters I do not attempt to read, due to the garbled state of their efforts.
Posted by Leo Lane, Friday, 26 June 2015 8:05:38 PM
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I think the opening comments by John Howard in response to a question from David Hicks a previous Q&A episode bear some relevance to this topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQO3pW0DLmI

I did not see the episode in question but I'm not convinced views I may not like should be shut down regardless of the history of the individual concerned. Based on what I've heard of the specific comments they appeared to be in part a legitimate part of the discussion.

I tend to the view that for the most part the ABC is biased towards the left of politics, I'm not a fan of their political advocacy being publicly funded but I also see some value in having those viewpoints in the public space and being debated.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 26 June 2015 8:38:08 PM
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It is somewhat annoying to see all that taxpayer money being paid to thousands of the self satisfied lefties playing games as employees of the ABC.

However it is now not very important, apart from that waste of our hard earned funds on these clowns, their effect is now totally nil. They have gone so far to the radical ratbag left, no sensible people watch or listen to them today.

I used to enjoy ABC documentaries, & years ago was aware of a little subtle twisting of the facts. It was probably effective in selling some of their lefty leanings, but no more.

The clowns we are paying a fortune, are so dumb that they have shot themselves in the foot. They have gone so far left that it is totally obvious to any intelligent person, & merely antagonises any but the radical. They have totally lost the ear & the respect of the middle ground people, & are turning more to the right every day with their hyperbole.

They are still ridiculously expensive, but no longer an effective tool of the left.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 26 June 2015 8:54:55 PM
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As for the ABC being biased in favour of the left, my experience does not support that concept. I was in the audience when the discussion was education and the panel was the then Minister for Education Peter Garrett and Shadow Minister Christopher Pyne. The first question was from the CEO of Christian Schools and the final question was from a representative of the (USA funded?) right wing think tank CIS. There were hardly any questions that could be considered left of centre.

Tony Jones knows what questions have been submitted and has a cueing system to the seating position of the people whose questions have been approved. Not all approved questions get asked depending on where the responses from the panel lead.

I consider that Steve Ciobo MP gave a very poor performance on Monday. He wanted to act as judge and jury on a man who had served his time for a threat made in his youth and the court accepted that he had shown no intent to carry out the threat. That is why the sentence was so short
Posted by Foyle, Friday, 26 June 2015 9:04:02 PM
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The Liberal alphabet:

DEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Three reasons why I watch the ABC in preference to any other channel:

1) They have the best shows by a long way. And I don't mean Q&A or Lateline, because they are boring. I mean 'Doctor Who' and 'QI' and 'The Micallef P(r)ogram(me)' and 'Upper Middle Bogan' and 'The League of Gentlemen' and 'Sherlock' et. al.

A lot of Australian television is imported: the ABC consistently produce the best Australian comedy shows and they import good quality comedy and drama from the BBC, whereas the commercial channels import American tripe like 'Two and a Half Men' and all their locally produced shows seem to be reality shows which are considerably less exciting then Q&A and somewhat less exciting than a test pattern.

2) No ads. Ads during shows shyt me to tears. I cannot remember the last time I watched commercial TV because I can't stand the damn ads.

3) They have the best streaming service of any television network. Way better than SBS's, which I use occasionally because they have good movies, some interesting docos and South Park. I did try one of the commercial network's streaming service a year or two ago. Channel 9's, I think. I was not impressed.

//that's no reason why they should not fund it themselves.//

Are you proposing some sort of system where we get to decide where our taxes go? I'd support that: I could not pay taxes for the roads that I don't drive on, and have that money used to fund public transport instead. Or not pay taxes for those lazy bludgers getting paid handsomely to sit on their arse and sweet FA known as the 'NSW Police Force', and have that money used to fund the health system and education instead. Or not pay taxes for the ridiculous pension allowances for politicians and have that money used to fund our ABC instead.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 26 June 2015 9:50:47 PM
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I watched the Q&A program in question, and I assume everyone who comments on that show On this forum has too?
If they have all watched it, then I wonder why, as so many posters appear to hate the ABC? Why put yourself through it?

I agree it was probably a mistake to have the obviously disturbed Muslim fundamentalist on a live TV show where the producers had no idea what he might say or do. I would have felt just as upset if one of those rabid pro-life tea-party type person was on too.
Mind you, isn't it better to know what we are dealing with in these cases?

The ABC is not aligned to any particular political party, and like most journalists, they are much more likely to report on, and pick apart, the policies and actions of the party and ministers who are currently running the Government.

As I recall, there was no PM more vilified or personally picked apart by TV media and journalists of all stations than Julia Gillard or her labor party when they held government.

For all the lies Abbott has told, and the poor decisions he has made since being PM, you rarely hear the media going on about what he wears, his hair colour, his gender, his personal life, or the size of his bum or .....ears.
The worst I ever heard was the hysteria about his little speedo's on one of the regular he-man activities he has the media take photo's of....
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 27 June 2015 12:19:38 AM
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As much as the writer is entitled to his views, this article is rubbish, to the point where I almost wondered if it was satire. He should stick to fighting the good fight against airport lounge restrictions.

The most basic difficulty for this writer, as for any extremist, libertarian or otherwise, is his complete inability to see how he relates to others in society. Here he follows the standard far right view that anyone who is not far right, such as that renowned pinko Turnbull, is therefore far left, and an enemy. By this calculus the Austrelia that voted Abbott to power is 90% left wing. He boldly proclaims the ABC to be 'pro-green' without a single example or shred of evidence to back this, then has a baseless dig at refugees - even the politically cleansed term asylum seekers is considered to provide too much humanity for these people - again without a shred of evidence.

Then we have him ridiculing Turnbull and Pyne for taking such a wimpy moderate approach. Again, by this line of reasoning, Ciobo should have physically got up and belted Mallah as apparently pouring petrol on the fire is the best way to put it out. I assume he also complained to Gina Rinehart and co, and asked Bolt to boycott his show, when the same simpleton appeared on Channel 10 earlier on.

Finally we have the MSNBC anecdote, which mainly shows that libertarian jaws in the US are made out of similar glass to those of their Australian contemporaries. One tweet. That's it? That's enough to get you kicked out of the club? Nevermind the fact that this private network's single remark would pass as outstandingly polite and almost sheepish in comparison to those from our many shock jocks and some of our wackier Libs and senators who prefer burning witches and slitting throats.

As a proud Labor voter I am proud that the ABC provides a forum where my views and values can be expressed ALONGSIDE THOSE I DISAGREE WITH. That is democracy, after all. Thank God for the ABC.
Posted by My Left Hand, Saturday, 27 June 2015 12:39:06 AM
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The regressives always claim that the national broadcasters are not biased despite their Christophic rants, hatred of Israel, promotion of homosexuality and abbottphobia. Interesting enough it is the regressive who scream loudest when their are any cuts to the ABC. I wonder why if they are so neutral.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 27 June 2015 12:47:09 AM
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Whoops, look like we shook another one out of the tree.

@runner. Every single thing you accuse the ABC of in your own Christophic (?) rant is untrue. Promoting an acceptance of homosexuality does not equate to what you said. Promoting the idea that there are two sides in the Israel Palestine conflict is not hating Israel. The other two aren't even worth responding to.

You are free to not like homosexuals or Arabs all you want, just keep it to yourself. In the adult public discourse most genuine Labor and Liberal voters, and I would have thought those anti-18C libertarians as well, accept that we can agree to disagree, and that tolerance is important. If you have some burning hatred inside you, maybe you should deal with it yourself before projecting it onto others.
Posted by My Left Hand, Saturday, 27 June 2015 12:59:42 AM
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runner, WTF are you on about? What are these Christophic rants? Whose hatred of Israel are you refering to? (though they have interviewed plenty of people who hate Israel, that doesn't seem to be their editorial line and overall their coverage seems quite balanced). The ABC doesn't seem to be any more pro homosexuality than the commercial stations. And as for abbottphobia, I think the reverse is true: all those accusations of bias have resulted in timidity, and they've given him a far too easy run.

The Left want the ABC to be strong; the right seem to want it to be obsequious!
Posted by Aidan, Saturday, 27 June 2015 1:11:43 AM
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Summarising the left wing supporters of the ABC, we get this.

Mikk just ran into the arena and let fly with a mouth full of abuse towards Tony Abbott. Not much of an argument there, Mikk. But thank you for displaying just how shallow the thinking of lefties is, when you can't even think up an argument to support your opinions.

Cobber the Hound implied that the left wing view was "reality", that the ABC was "independent media", and that the latest attack on the ABC was some sort of Abbott red herring to make people stop "looking at Liberal policies." Well, to begin with cobber, the ABC is not "independent media" if it is paid for by the taxpayer and it is obliged by it's charter to produce unbiased news.

Foxy went in to bat for the "foolish, misguided young man" who has publically declared previously that two female journalists should be gang raped on live TV. It is funny how the left wing sisterhood sticks up for the Muslims who think that thinking women should be raped, because the sisters think that minorities should be protected, and they simply hate Tony Abbott.

Pericles tried the old "freedom of speech" ploy. That sounds funny from somebody who probably supports 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act. The ABC should have freedom of speech, Pericles. But it's charter obliges it to produce a balanced presentation. Having a Q&A panel composed of an intelligently left wing person, a mildly left wing, a moderately left wing, and a totally rabid, mouth frothing, left wing nutcase, is not a "balanced" panel.

Craig Minns, Ponder, and Susieonline tried the lame old excuse that the ABC is not biased at all. The only thing wrong with that logic, is that even lefties like Robert LePage know that the ABC is biased. LePage justified the bias by implying that it balances out the commercial media which he claims has a right wing bias. Even if his opinion were true, it does not excuse the fact that the ABC is not abiding by it's charter.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 27 June 2015 3:04:25 AM
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LEGO, I did not suggest that the ABC is never biased, I pointed out that the general quality standards of its reportage are high and that this, unsurprisingly, is confronting to those who think that the best thing for everyone is just to do as they're told and not ask questions.

Lawrence Kohlberg defined this as "conventional" Stage 3 thinking and he suggested that most people should reach that stage of reasoning about morality by about puberty.

He also pointed out that some never grow out of it. What a clever chap he was.
Posted by Craig Minns, Saturday, 27 June 2015 6:44:39 AM
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Toni Lavis gave three good reasons why the ABC is the best channel but they were all pointedly ignored by LEGO because they didn't fit his narrative that everyone who loves the ABC loves it because of the left-wing bias it demonstrates and for no other reason.

I'm two episodes behind in 'Doctor Who' which I'll probably be catching up today. I'll be sure to keep my eyes peeled for any overt left-wing bias. I haven't really seen any so far. About the closest you get is the Doctor's eternal battle against the Cybermen, who are distinctly fascist. They certainly never grew out of 'Stage 3 thinking'.

But it's a new Doctor and a new companion and maybe the writers decided to risk alienating a lot of their audience by making them both raving pinkos. Amy Pond is from Scotland and statistically unlikely to support the British Conservative party. But the eleventh doctor is friends with Winston Churchill and over 900 years. Older people are more likely to vote conservatively, so there is a very good chance the Doctor is a tory. I love him all the same.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 27 June 2015 8:36:03 AM
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Craig,
We don't need to know about everything the state or the government do, however the government have nobody to blame but themselves dues to the fact that they allowed themselves to be drawn into this ridiculous "openness and transparency" debate.
As Neil Young wrote in Greendale "Talking to the media aint a privilege and it aint an obligation neither", it's up to politicians whether they engage with media or not, I'd suggest that it's not in the interests of anyone to deal with them.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 27 June 2015 8:42:43 AM
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I thought you wrote that you were not communicating with me anymore, Craig Minns? I was living in hope, but you have come back to annoy me. I said that I would return fire if you tried it on me again, so here goes.

If you are now claiming that you have never said that the ABC is not biased (double negative), then you agree that it is biased. I agree with you. The ABC has a persistent and entrenched left wing bias. But the ABC was set up to provide quality, unbiased reportage, not to be politically partisan and to be the taxpayer funded PR media for the Labor Party and the Greens. If it can not do it's job, which was defined by an act of parliament, it should be abolished by an act of parliament.

Now you are saying that the ABC reportage is "high quality." How you equate biased reportage with "high quality" is beyond me. Perhaps you think that always presenting a biased, left wing view as the truth, and always being totally negative biased towards right wing (nationalist) views, is the definition of "high quality?"
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 27 June 2015 8:56:41 AM
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Foyle: the court accepted that he had shown no intent to carry out the threat. That is why the sentence was so short.

If I stood up on a plane in the air & said, “ I’ve got a bomb!” & later said, “just kidding.” Do you think the Judge would give me a light Sentence? No the Sentence was one of those stupid ones that Judges give out nowadays, especially if they don’t want to upset the moslem community.

Three reasons why I watch the ABC in preference to any other channel:

1: Snobbery.
2. I’m one of the Upper Class.
3. My $h!t don”t stink.
I surmise that you would only read “The Australian” because only the best people read a Broardsheet.

SOL: it was probably a mistake to have the obviously disturbed Muslim fundamentalist on a live TV show.

I disagree. It showed to the Australian people just what your average moslem is like & that’s a good thing.

SOL: For all the lies Abbott has told, and the poor decisions he has made since being PM.

That’s pretty par for the course for any Politician. Isn’t it.

Well said LEGO.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 27 June 2015 9:09:51 AM
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//the ABC was set up to provide quality, unbiased reportage//

It was set up to do a lot more than that, LEGO. The ABC is not just a news service:

https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2014C00721/Html/Text#_Toc402340439

But you're happy to throw the baby out with the bathwater because you don't like the bias you perceive in some of their current affairs shows. Couldn't you just not watch those shows, instead obliterating the entire ABC because you dislike a small fraction of their services?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 27 June 2015 9:14:37 AM
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All public agencies including the largely redundant ABC should be required to put forward a business case for continuation of public funding.

While on the subject of redundancy and wastage of the money compulsorily extracted from taxpayers, either the SBS is a huge, expensive indulgence to ethnic lobbyists or it ought takeover the ABC.

It does seem as though successive governments turn a blind eye to the taxpayers' money gobbled up by the ABC, money that could be put to better use developing infrastructure in the North of Queensland, for example. That way everyone benefits.
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 27 June 2015 11:16:02 AM
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LEGO,

Did you even watch the show? The panel weren't all left wing; they had a diverse range of opinions (as they usually do). Indeed it included a government MP, whose response to the question was a big part of the problem.

The questioner has NOT publically declared previously that two female journalists should be gang raped on live TV. He said they should be gangbanged; that's consensual. His assumption that they'd consent to it is still repugnant, but not threatening.

___________________________________________________________________________________

jayb,

"If I stood up on a plane in the air & said, ' I’ve got a bomb!' & later said, 'just kidding.' Do you think the Judge would give me a light Sentence?"

Yes. Compared to the sentence you'd get if you actually had a bomb, your sentence would be light. Though still significant due to the disruption it would cause.

"I disagree. It showed to the Australian people just what your average moslem is like & that’s a good thing."

Why do you assume him to be average? I'd expect "your average moslem" to disown this pig!
Posted by Aidan, Saturday, 27 June 2015 12:22:45 PM
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agree Aidan In order to defeat this risible rationale, we have to know what it is and just who in the community hold or are persuaded by these views.I think MR JONES need to get the chop, given his interviewing style simply had to elicit just this response. Alan Jones or Andrew Bolt would have likely hit the edit button before the hate speech went to air.

Those who like to get their news stories from patently biased communicators have other choices. An ABC boycott would be remedied at the next election and affect the outcome? the ABC is funded by the taxpayer and is therefore only beholden to them not the government of the day, whoever they are!AS clever as Tony Jones is, we can be sure he didn't put words in this young madman's mouth!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Saturday, 27 June 2015 1:19:05 PM
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Aidan: Why do you assume him to be average? I'd expect "your average moslem" to disown this pig!

Yes, a bit like your average High Profile Protestant Preacher when one gets caught banging some bloke in the local Motel after he's run off with the Churches Funds. "Oh he never was a Christian." ;-)

I'm sorry to say, he really is your average real moslem & there-in lies the problem for Australia in the future. Don't forget he admits to supporting Al-Nusa, an Al-Qaida off shoot. Now that does make him a terrorist. "Out, foul spot"

I wonder where the usual moslem advocates are. We haven't seen one of them pop their head up in this conversation. Come on steelie & friends. Where are you. Holidaying in the Middle East, I guess.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 27 June 2015 1:27:43 PM
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Oh come on JayB, how can you say that mindless moron was a average Muslim? Do you know how ALL Muslims think?
That's like saying you are representative of all Australian men, when you are far from it.....
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 27 June 2015 2:00:49 PM
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SOL: Oh come on JayB, how can you say that mindless moron was a average Muslim?

Yes I am. Those that say they're not are Taqiyya.

SOL: Do you know how ALL Muslims think?

We've all got a fair idea according to their Koran. "Kill the infidel where ever you find them." & "it is lawful to lie (Taqiyya) to an infidel." & they all believe it to the n th. degree.

That's like saying you are representative of all Australian men, when you are far from it.....

Are you suggesting that I am one of the bad men? I'm afraid you have me all wrong. I'm really one of the good guys. really. I've got a line up of widows waiting for my wife to die. They've told her. She told them that they've got a long wait ahead. ;-)

Just because I'm not a sucker for a sob story doesn't make me a bad guy.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 27 June 2015 3:10:56 PM
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Dear oh dear.

All we've got to go on is the TV program and the
man's appearance towards the end of the end of the
show.

It's amazing how many assumptions are being made from
that small prism.

The same goes for making judgements about any particular
group. Sweeping statements and generalisations don't allow
for individual differences and lumping everyone together
be they Jew, Christian, or Muslim - is simply nonsense.
They don't all think alike, nor do they practice their
religions in exactly the same way.

Not all Aussies are violent loud alcoholic roughnecks
whose idea of fun is to throw up on your car. The national
sport is not breaking furniture or king-hitting people
on Saturday nights, and the average daily
consumption of beer in Sydney is not ten and three quarters
imperial gallons for children under the age of nine either.

This particular bloke as one poster has already pointed out in this
discussion should not be held accountable for the threats
he issued in his youth - and for which he apparently paid for.
He was found not guilty of terrorism charges and was
acquitted.

The Liberal MP - pushed the buttons deliberately on the show
and got the reaction he was after for his own political
brownie points.

I'm sure that the PM and his team thoroughly approved.
The incident only helps their so often quoted slogans of
"keeping this country safe".
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 June 2015 3:41:57 PM
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Oh come on JayB, all religions and races have members with extreme views about the contents of their holy books, even Christians!
Of course not all Muslims view their holy book so literally as some do.
You are well known as anti-Muslim on this forum, but I am sure your wife loves you anyway :)

Foxy, as much as I agree that the LIberal pollie in question on the Q&A last Monday did goad the Muslim audience member, I found myself disliking the attitude of that guy. He admitted he had threatened people's lives, but he wasn't bothered by that admission.

I do agree though that we can't cut off an Aussie citizenship without using proper courts and lawyers, otherwise we are giving too much power to politicians like the ones on Q&A. A frightening prospect.
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:41:44 PM
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To Susionline.

If a notorious Nazi said on TV that Jews are evil, and they should be isolated from the Australian economy, would you claim that he was an atypical Nazi?

If a notorious Ku Klux Klansman said on TV that all negroes were evolutionarily closer to apes than whites, would you claim that he was an atypical Ku Klux Klansmen.

Any group of people can be judged by their adherence to the core group values which define who and what they are. Zacky Mallah is a Muslim who advocates the values of Islam. To claim that he is not representative of Muslims begs the same question that you put to Jayb. You attacked Jayb by claiming saying that Mallah did pot speak for the average Muslim. Asking you the same question, how do you know that?

How is it that you know what the average Muslim thinks when you sneer at Jayb for making the same assumption that you did? It looks like a double standard to me.

If you know what "average Muslims" think, could I ask you a few questions?

Do "average Muslims" think it is OK to criticise Islam and the Prophet?

Do "average Muslims" reject Sharia Law?

Do "average muslims" believe in the separation of church and state?

Do "average Muslims" believe that apostates to Islam should not be murdered?

Do "average Muslims" think that women who do not follow the dictates of Islam do not deserve to be raped?

Do "average Muslims believe that if a woman is raped, it is not her fault?

Do "average Muslims" denounce the idea that Islam can be spread by force?

Are "moderate Muslims OK with homosexuality?

Please tell me, as a person who claims to know what "average Muslims" think, you must know.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:44:50 PM
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SOL: I do agree though that we can't cut off an Aussie citizenship without using proper courts and lawyers,

& Every Lawyer & Judge in Australia screaming, "YES! Bring it on! Ka Ching!" Singing, "Money, money, money."
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:49:12 PM
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Dear Suse,

Zaky Mallah was provoked by the Liberal MP
on Q and A.

Zaky Mallah is a young man, once radicalised, now
reformed, whose central message on radio and elsewhere
has been one of disdain for the "fanatics" of Islamic
State.

As Jonathan Green points out on the ABC - that's a
voice that has a place in our conversation about the
promotion of terror - but not if politics has anything
to do with it.

And the Murdoch media, the PM, and his government will
ensure that this case will remain in the news.
The hysteria and hyperbole is overstated - but it suits
the Abbott-led Coalition to keep at it for political gain.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 27 June 2015 6:04:20 PM
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Greeting one and all,

I’d like to respond to a few comments if I may.

Jardine K. Jardine you stated that

"Broadcast media is not a legitimate function of government"

I agree 100%

Cobber you mentioned that:

“I seem to remember the Libs saying a few months ago that people had the right to be bigots”.

The Attorney General never said that anyone can offend on the public dime.

The fact is that if leftists want to vent their biased views let them put their money where their mouths are. Pony up the money and establish a leftist media group such as The Guardian

The crux of the matter is that ALL taxpayers are forced to fund journalists less interested in the truth when it comes up against their opinion.

Take today’s report on ABC Radio by Philip Williams reporting on the terror attacks overnight. Amazingly in the clip I heard there was no mention of word "Muslim”. Was I to infer the butchers were Jews or Baptists? Or Mormons?

You state that the ABC is “the independent media”. Independent of what? Before you say “government” it’s clear that it is independent of the current government but behaves as the communications subsidiary of the opposition.

Ttbn you claim

“The PM is too much of a coward to do anything about the ABC”.

I hope you’re wrong.

And

“I'm sick of the huff and puff of a government complaining, rightly, about the bias and anti-Australian mindset of the ABC but doing nothing about”

You and many others.

Ian D

You say

“ The day that government policies and actions cannot be held up to scrutiny is the day I want out of here”.

It’s not its role in attempting to scrutinise that upsets many. It’s that the ABC has a singular focus. It never gives the Left’s policies the same attention or criticism.
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Saturday, 27 June 2015 6:16:42 PM
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Ponder

You say

“Naturally, such a mammoth public media outlet cannot please all the audiences consistently”.

So, let's go back to the first comment, JKJ’s and query

What purpose does the ABC serve?

It’s not like there isn’t a wide array of media groups both mainstream and not; in print and electronic that news hounds and folk pushing particular views cannot latch on to.

Leo Lane, you state

“The usual leftist nonsense, on this thread, that the contemptible distorted view of the left is somehow normal, and the sensible balanced views are right wing”.

Agreed. After all if the left was the “normal”, then the Coalition would not have won the elections.
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Saturday, 27 June 2015 6:29:22 PM
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I believe a little too much hysteria has entered the fray on this topic. The person in question has obviously said and done some stupid things in the past. His comments on QandA on Monday evening, particularly his second was not well thought out and did him no favours.

Additionally it should be noted the man in question had and has been advocating for more than five years on blog and website for young Muslims to steer well clear of IS and radical Muslim fundamentalist activity, this is why I suspect the ABC thought it safe to have him put forward his opinion on the show.

As to the political hysteria following the show, well that would be par for the course and expected of the current government, particularly its “sound bite” leader Tony Abbott.

Has Abbott forgotten it was and still is Australia’s policy decisions that tend to foment hatred of the West because of our meddling in the Middle East? Primarily US hegemonic ambitions in this region, with our complicit support has not served Australia well since 2003. Our blind following of US foreign policy has been a mistake for Australia, particularly noting the current and declining state of the ME, Vis Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen etc.

Additionally our unilateral support for Israel continues to send a message to young Muslims that we fully endorse Israli actions in Gaza and the West Bank.

The U.S. Went into Afghanistan claiming it only needed to kill the 5000 odd Taliban, has now killed 10,000 and their only remains 20,000 to kill today, Unfortunately US foreign Policy is to blame and we continue to follow it at our folly.

The young man in question is but one of millions who see the hypocrisy of the west and the hatred they feel will remain so long as we blindly attempt to interfere in what they see as Muslim business.

Tony Abbott loves this kind of storm, fear makes people look to a strong leader in times of danger, which is exactly what he is taking advantage of at this time.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Saturday, 27 June 2015 6:39:48 PM
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Just a thought.

Would the posters here classify Zaky Mallah and his comments as "left wing" or "right wing"?

Any takers?
Posted by Pericles, Saturday, 27 June 2015 6:57:05 PM
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LEGO, I have spoken to many 'average' Muslim Australians who I know would not agree with your views on lumping all Muslims in the one basket. How many have you spoken to?
I admit I haven't personally spoken to any 'radical' Muslims, but I have certainly spoken to some radical Christians, and I believe they are very similar.

If we were to adhere to your black and white way of thinking, no one would have a view on any subject at all.
I realize that your views on this subject are absolutely true to you, but I beg to differ....
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 27 June 2015 7:11:02 PM
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Pericles, that's terribly unkind. The poor dears are flat out working which side the buttons go on their shirt most of the time and let's face it, mirrors are obviously a part of the vast left wing conspiracy to drive rightists crazy...

The last thing they need is an agent provocateur like you poking his nose in.
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 28 June 2015 6:32:30 AM
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JoM: "ridiculous openness and transparency debate".

An interesting comment, Jay and understandable given your previous comments in support of anonymity online. I'll simply point out that I and many others are not anonymous and we seem to be able to state our views (as offensive as some apparently find them).

Perhaps if you didn't feel your views would be viewed by others as repugnant you wouldn't feel the need to scuttle around in the dark like a cockroach? As you've said, you don't use your real name here for fear of offending people you might work for. As a result, your views are a sideshow at best. They can't ever be anything more than the rantings of a crackpot, even if they are absolutely correct, since they have no credence.

The simple fact is that it is only in the presence of good information that any understanding can arise between different groups. Good information requires that good access to data is available. Good access to data requires that people aren't doing their best to make that data hard to find. It also requires a willingness to hear views we don't agree with and to actively seek them out, not to prove them wrong, necessarily, but to add them to our own store of data.

The ABC does that very well. Only the weakest of political spines would not want them to do that role as free from interference as possible.
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 28 June 2015 6:54:32 AM
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Dear "Suse". To paraphrase Foxy, Zacky Mallah bragged that he was "Australia's first terrorist." He obtained a firearm and told an interviewing journalist (who was an undercover ASIO agent) that he intended to storm either an ASIO office and take hostages. When his house was raided the police discovered the now common suicide video, with Mallah dressed in jihadi uniform, posing with weapons, and bragging about what he was going to do. Unfortunately, the jury in his terrorism trial bought the defence's contention that he was just an idiot seeking attention, and he was convicted on a lesser charge. Had the trial taken place after the Lindt cafe seige which involved another Muslim idiot seeking "attention", the verdict may have been different.

One can just imagine that if Man Haron Monis had not yet staged his terrorist attack, old Foxy would be right up there defending him a poor, misguided publicity seeker. Jonathon Green would be defending him as a true spokesperson for Muslim grievances against the evil western world, and Q&A would have had Monis on TV attacking government ministers.

If you think that Mallah is now a reformed Jihadi preaching peace, love and mung beans, then I would like to sell you a lovely, coat hanger shaped bridge spanning Sydney harbour, cheap.

As for your claim that the Murdoch media is biased. "The Australian" newspaper itself has interviewed Zacky Mallah and published the interview. "The Australian" is everything the ABC will never be. It's editorials may have a right wing bias, but it does submit balanced reportage with regular opinion columns by notorious left wing correspondents like Mark Day, Graham Richardson, and Phillip Adams. It interviews people in the news like Mallah to examine their mindsets. In addition, on any contemporary contentious issue, "The Australian" gives more or less equal space on it's "Opinions" page to both sides of the argument.

The benefits of having pro and anti arguments side by side, is that in the battle of ideas, you can usually tell who is talking sense, and who is preaching self interest and/or ideology.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 28 June 2015 7:34:24 AM
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Monis was a regular offender with a record as long as your nose, Pinocchio, including having been charged as an accessory to his wife's murder. He was quite simply, a nutjob who would have gone off the rails whatever his religion.

Mallah is a young bloke who was very angry and acted out. ISIS provides a focus for such young men (and women), much as the White pride and other tribalist groups do for disaffected young men who identify as part of the tribe represented or as online fantasy games do for people like you (the great "student of military history" who's never been closer to a uniform than at the Royal Easter Show Army recruiting pavilion). I bet you're a dab hand at Counterstrike though: the 12 year olds on line must be terrified when they see "LEGO the Legend" appear on the other side...
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 28 June 2015 7:45:31 AM
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Stop the immature name calling Craig, if 'having credence' is important to you.

Although much of the time I disagree with you in principal, I do respect your intelligence and generally well thought out arguments. But when you stoop to the silly name calling you basically come across as idiotic as some of the loopiest regulars on this Forum.

As for whether or not using one's 'real name' is important, I don't see how the names Craig Minns, Shadow Minister, Runner, Hasbeen or LEGO mean anything at all. Short of providing your address and phone number, we have no real proof Craig Minns is not just another non de plume.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from; I mean no disrespect.
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Sunday, 28 June 2015 8:59:40 AM
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CH, I'm sad that you think my feeble attempts at satirical caricaturisation are "immature name-calling".

On the subject of anonymity, you're quite right, we might all be figments of each others' imaginations! I hadn't considered that.

I'll tell you what, on the off chance that Graham Young isn't a figment of my imagination, you could try asking him if I'm real and then let me know. I imagine we've met, you see and it would be good to know if someone else thinks he's as real as I do.

On a more serious note, transparency in relation to our identities when discussing ideas on fora like this is a good way to prevent people spouting crap simply to get a reaction (trolling).

Anonymity says "I don't want to be identified with my own views. I'm afraid that people might think less of me if they know I hold them."

It's acknowledgement that one lacks principles worth standing up for.
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 28 June 2015 9:18:36 AM
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"Anonymity says "I don't want to be identified with my own views. I'm afraid that people might think less of me if they know I hold them."

It's acknowledgement that one lacks principles worth standing up for."

Does this mean you are opposed to elections being held by secret ballot? Think about it... what's the difference other than taking your idea to the extreme?

Some people may be in professional roles that could suffer from an unfair or exaggerated social media attack if their personal views were made public. For instance a person may not be a supporter of gay marriage and have his words misconstrued into being homophobic; then after a social media attack his business comes under threats of boycott by supporters and the gay community. It's inviting trouble he doesn't need, but that doesn't that mean he should not be entitled the freedom to express an opinion on a forum like this?

The weight of the anonymous opinions on this forum are a reflection of a certain percentage of the general population's views. Polls set out to gauge the public perception but don't reveal the individuals that were contacted. Anonymity offers the individual the opportunity to express themselves honestly without fear of recrimination.

Putting your name out there for all to see is not everyone's bag.

I don't believe anonymity negates the validity of a person's genuine viewpoint or comments, including the so called 'trolls'.
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Sunday, 28 June 2015 10:10:38 AM
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Why did that stupid little person wear a baseball cap with a gold-colored marijuana synbol fashioned boldly on its front? What was he trying to proclaim?
Posted by Ponder, Sunday, 28 June 2015 10:20:52 AM
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CM: I'll simply point out that I and many others are not anonymous and we seem to be able to state our views (as offensive as some apparently find them).

In the spirit of being anonymous. Jayb1 is used because just JB is not allowed. JB was given to me about 40 years ago. Too many Johns in my Club. Made sense at the time & has stuck ever since. My wife just gets M. I could put avatars or nicknames up that other people have given me over time; Eg; A#$hole through to Hero. At one time, when I was young, Lightning, because I never struck twice in the same place & Jungles because I was Green & Dense.

But this is not what this discussion is about. It's about boycotting the ABC. I don't agree, although it's quite obvious that the ABC is run by Greenie, Politically Correct Do-gooders. (YUCK) it does allow people to form an opinion of these people & it's not good. So really the ABC, in that light, is $#!tting in it's own nest. Still it's no reason to boycott the Station because there are lots of other good programmes on it.

I think it was a good thing having Mallah on because it allowed people to see just what we are dealing with concerning Islam, even with the moderates. Don't forget Mallah supports Al Nusa which is an off shoot of Al Queada. Al Nusa is a terrorist organization also dedicated to the expansion of Islam by any means necessary.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 28 June 2015 10:51:40 AM
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There was an excellent article by Sam Gipson in
The Age newspaper, June 24, 2015.

In it Gipson tells us that:

"Zaky Mallah is a misguided young man but the
Q&A incident clearly reveals flaws in the way the
government treats young Muslims."

Zaky Mallah's reaction on the program - and his
response to the baiting of the Liberal MP on the panel
highlights the government's need to woo young Muslims
not alienate them.

Gipson explains that:

"Rightly or wrongly, many young Australian Muslims feel an
overwhelming sense of alienation and marginalisation in their
own country. They feel as if they are seen as outsiders and
undesirables by their own government."

Gipson tells us:

"Though there is no one size fits all process of how or why
people become radicalised, much research identifies feelings
of marginalisation and insecurity as being driving forces.
These feelings breed a sense of purposelessness, vulnerability,
and futility which groups like ISI's prey upon."

"Reducing the threat of ISI's and of radicalisation can only
be achieved with a multi-faceted approach that places an
emphasis on inclusion."
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 28 June 2015 10:57:25 AM
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Fox,

You are forever in that rut, blaming the kind, generous and vulnerable Australian public, the planned victims, for the crimes of offenders.

Would you similarly blame the rape victim for the offence committed against her?

It is a usual ploy of criminals to blame their victims and the public. That is while denying their crimes.

Typical leftists, forever rationalising and making excuses for criminals, while disregarding the harm and rights of the victims.

BTT
The public are not accepting the arrogance and spin of the ABC. The public recognise that the ABC was setting up a minister for a fall, but it backfired against the ABC.

Here is another instance where the 'Progressive' ABC's Q&A very obviously set up what it saw as a despised 'conservative' Peter Hitchens, for its blood sport of humiliating and chastising non-'Progressives', this time with a panel heavily weighted against him,

http://davidvangend.com/?p=1984

The ABC has two editorial policies. There is the one for public consumption, where it claims the independence required for its privileged, pampered position in broadcasting and the $1.3 billion pa from the taxpayer.

Then there is the informal editorial policy, the political 'Progressivism' of the ABC.

Who the hell do the executives of the ABC think they are that they assume that they always know what is right for the public they are supposed to be serving and being answerable to? Who the hell directed the ABC to spruik the social change and social reengineering the 'progressive' ABC believes is right for the public?

Of course the ABC isn't the only Australian public agency or Quango to show obvious political bias and to be applying its taxpayer-sourced monies to its own secondary agendas. The problem is that they are not directly answerable to the parliament in the way that ministerial departments are, it shows and they should be.

The public wants the old independent Auntie back and slimmed down too to concentrate on what is NOT is already available, often abundantly, from other sources and the Net. Times have changed and the ABC's obesity and self-indulgence are not welcome.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 28 June 2015 11:58:17 AM
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OK, let's analyse Foxy's latest effort to blame western civilisation for Muslim violence, and exonerate Muslims from any responsibility. Let's examine the clear double standard of her thinking.

If Zaky Mallah had been a Nazi who had served time in jail for threatening to kill ASIO agents, I think we could assume that Foxy would not have referred to him as a "misguided young man", suggested that the government was somehow responsible for his behaviour, or that the government is wrong to sneer at Nazis.

She would not cry about young Nazis feeling "alienated" or "marginalised" "in their own country." Especially if the Nazi party of Australia did everything it could to isolate their own Nazi youth from any social contact with "multiculturalist infidels", Jews and judenfruends. If the Nazi Party of Australia demanded that Nazis may marry multiculturalists and convert them to Nazism, but committed multiculturalists may not marry Nazis, I doubt if Foxy would approve. If Nazi schools preaching Nazi values were springing up everywhere, you can bet that Foxy would be apoplectic. If the written statutes of Nazism demanded that Nazis "Slay the multiculturalists, wherever you find them, lay ambushes for them, strike terror into their hearts", you can bet that the penny might drop for Foxy.

She and the journos like GIbson would hardly be going around complaining that the poor Nazis feel the way they do because they don't feel "included" in the very society that their leaders and their ideology most firmly reject. She would not be whining about Muslim "inclusion" or the fact that the unacceptable levels of Nazi criminal behaviour in her society means that most people in Australia just don't like Nazis.

Lastly, comes the laughable tenet that radicalisation of disaffected Nazi youth can only be achieved by a "multi faceted approach." That is a euphemism for "unless you give our social workers billions of dollars in Danegeld to appease these young Nazis, we won't be able to stop them from going berserk and doing something terrible.

Pay up now
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 28 June 2015 11:59:06 AM
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If Abbott was really serious about defending Australia, he would be tracking down all the Left loons here and charging them with treason, along with Scott and all the other traitors in the ABC. With these obvious enemies of Australia enjoying the weakness of the Abbott government and the benefits of living here, we don't need to look outward for our enemies. Intern them all with the the illegal arrivals they side with until they are tried and dealt with.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 28 June 2015 12:59:34 PM
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This entire dialogue is simply getting too bizarre and extreme.
With all sorts of insults, personal attacks, and wrong assumptions
being presented.

I cannot understand why some people tend to get personal
and attack those views that don't agree with their own.
Arguing with false labelling is no way to argue.
Neither is citing one's opinion as fact.

Sam Gipson in The Age article stated that -
"Rightly or wrongly, many young Australian Muslims feel an
overwhelming sense of alienation and marginalisation in their
own country. They feel as if they are seen as outsiders and
undesirables by their own government."

Gipson explained that these feelings breed a sense of
purposelessness, vulnerability and futility which groups
like ISIs prey upon.

We should be interested in reducing the threat of ISIs
and radicalisation in this country - not encouraging it even
further by increasing marginalisation and insecurity of
young Muslims. This can only be achieved as Gipson points
out with a multi-faceted approaches that places an
emphasis on inclusion not alienation.

However, for those that don't get this.
What solutions to this problem do you offer?
What should be done - to prevent the radicalisation
of the Muslim youth in this country. What can we do to get rid
of their sense of alienation and marginalisation in their own
country?

Further attacks on them is not an answer.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 28 June 2015 1:34:38 PM
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However, for those that don't get this. What solutions to this problem do you offer? What should be done - to prevent the radicalisation of the Muslim youth in this country. What can we do to get rid of their sense of alienation and marginalisation in their own
country?

First of all, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The young Muslims who are not trouble makers or radicalised are obviously the youth who see Australia as their home and they have a desire to make their lives here.

The Muslim youth you speak of firstly need to want to be part of Australia before any programs we can offer will be beneficial. What makes you think the radicalised youth would change if given the opportunity? What's actually stopping them now?

I suppose employment would be a good start. Usually people who are employed have a better sense of worth. Perhaps there's a possibility of starting some kind of community based work that provides a sense of achievement as well as benefits to the community.

I suspect that in this day and age some youth think its cool to a radical and nothing we do will change their thinking
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Sunday, 28 June 2015 2:35:38 PM
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Fox, "Further attacks on them is not an answer"

"Them"? You are defending that grub Mallah and blaming the Australian public for his choices and his opinions.

How old is he now anyway? 30? 31?

Further, you defend the taxpayer funded national broadcaster for giving Mallah a podium and for setting up a politician to be insulted by him.

Whatever challenges and criticisms are directed at Mallah he is sorely due. If he comes across as a dangerous fool he would be representative of the types who sign up to the disgusting, dangerous menace of Islamic fundamentalism.

The only pity is that the regulators are playing catch up. What prevented Rudd and Gillard from being proactive to protect Australia?

Also, the ABC's management SHOULD be held accountable.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 28 June 2015 2:57:08 PM
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I got sprung with a 2 hour wait otherwise I would have beat you all to the punch. Well said LEGO you all have echo my sentiments exactly.

Foxy: In it Gipson tells us that:

"Zaky Mallah is a misguided young man but the Q&A incident clearly reveals flaws in the way the government treats young Muslims."

It’s not the Government that treats young moslems bad. He is blaming the Victim. Young moslems who feel disenfranchised by the Government because they can’t get their own way. Eg: Sharia Law, etc. Ok to Gang rape pieces of rotten meat, etc.

Foxy: the government's need to woo young Muslims not alienate them.

So, are you saying that the Government should allow them to have Sharia Law & gang rape pieces of rotten meat?

Foxy: Gipson explains that:

"Rightly or wrongly, many young Australian Muslims feel an overwhelming sense of alienation and marginalisation in their own country. They feel as if they are seen as outsiders and undesirables by their own government."

Is it really the Government marginalizing these people or have the only themselves to blame. It is the moslems that have rejected in entirety Australian Culture in favour of Islamic Culture. Therefore they have alienated themselves.

Gibson: "Reducing the threat of ISI's and of radicalisation can only be achieved with a multi-faceted approach that places an emphasis on inclusion."

Well, Australians have given them a chance at inclusion but they have rejected Australian culture & values as being unIslamic or not Halal.

Therefore I see Gibson’s article as appealing to the Government to appease or surrender to the Islamists so they won’t commit any terrorist attacks in Australia. That would fail too because they all hate one another as much as they hate Australian Culture. So on it would go.

I feel Gibson is a Left-wing, Greenie, Politically Correct do-gooder who is not worth the time of day.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 28 June 2015 3:03:48 PM
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First of all what we need to do is get our facts
straight.

Firstly Zaky Mallah (according to Jonathan Holmes - in
The Age) served two years in solitary in the Goulburn
Super-Max prison a decade ago, awaiting trial on
terrorism charges for which he was acquitted.

He pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of threatening
Commonwealth Officers and was sentenced to time already
served.

Which, according to Holmes is not, of course to say that
Mallah was not seriously deluded and a dangerous young man.
He was 19.

Mallah did travel to Syria in 2012. The "Jihad" he was
interested in joining was the fight against the tyrannical
government of Bashar-al-Assad and the outfit Mallah
joined for a few days - without engaging in any combat - was the
Free Syrian Army - this is the force which the US is not
training and which Australia supports.

Holmes makes it quite clear that Mallah did not support or
encourage young Australians going to Syria or Iraq to fight
for ISIS. Mallah has stated so on Twitter and has described
ISIS as an organisation that has hijacked Islam.

Holmes finds it disturbing how so many people in our community
seem to think that people like Zaky Mallah should be silenced.
Is Australia's moral psychology so fragile?

Will our moral compass really spin out of control if we pause
to consider that not everyone everywhere agrees with us?

I agree with Holmes that it is silly to get upset about
people's opinions on a TV show designed to encourage them to
express their opinions.

Keep in mind as Holmes points out that many who find it threatening
even seditious to hear the thoughts of Zaky Mallah are the
same ones who earlier this year fell over themselves to
"express solidarity" with the French satiricial magazine
Charlie Hebdo - and upheld the concept of free speech.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 28 June 2015 4:18:35 PM
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Hi CM,
Considering that nearly all the Jihadists who have gone overseas were unemployed, employment would probably be a good start. Having a job is a huge part of who we are and our social standing in modern Australian society.

Youth unemployment has risen to more than twice the rate of the rest of the population. So unemployment is not only a problem for young Muslims. But this certainly must be a factor that must be considered.

Don't forget that we already have strong and healthy relationships with the general Muslim community. With all the hate mongering that goes on, one could think they are our enemy. They are not. The Muslim community has been our best defense against Muslim extremists. Many extremist plots have been foiled by moderate Muslims reporting suspicious behaviour to ASIO.

Programs that encourage social inclusion are our best defense. Demonising the Muslim community does them and us no favours, most Muslims are ordinary law abiding people.
Posted by BJelly, Sunday, 28 June 2015 4:50:21 PM
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Well said Foxy.
Posted by BJelly, Sunday, 28 June 2015 4:54:27 PM
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Yeah Foxy but you realise that "Je Suis Charlie" was a load of bollocks as well right? The response to the Charlie Hebdo outrage was as hypocritical as it gets given that Charb and Co led a campaign to have the Front National banned and fired a cartoonist who criticised Zionism, the magazine didn't stand for free speech for all, only for some. Now that I read that back it's actually "consistent hypocrisy" if you want to look at it that way LOL.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 28 June 2015 5:56:30 PM
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Dear BJelly,

Thank You.

I agree with Jonathan Holmes when he says:

"I applaud the ABC for continuing to expose the
Australian psyche to unpopular and dangerous opinions."

It is silly to get upset about people's opinions on a
TV show designed to encourage them to express those
opinions.

Holmes says he gets the feeling that both sides of
politics would like to see Q&A stacked with polite
minorities, accommodating women, and a couple of ageing
comedians who all agree with each other.

Then Holmes points out that - Oh wait,
The Project's already done that.

We have Andrew Bolt on his weekly show espousing his
narrow - factually wrong views. No Abbott-led Coalition
member ever objects to Mr Bolt. As a matter of fact -
they're frequent guests on his show - all singing from
the same song-book.

He's allowed to preach his weekly dose of bile.
Both on his TV show and in his columns.
And don't get me started on the other bright shinning light -
Alan Jones.

As a country we should not fear people saying things that
offend, horrify, or disgust us. However, the reality is that
Freedom of Speech seems to apply only to a select
few.

See you on another discussion.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 28 June 2015 6:38:58 PM
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'We have Andrew Bolt on his weekly show espousing his
narrow - factually wrong views'

swallowing truth has always proved very difficult for the left. Foxy is good evidence of that.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 28 June 2015 7:04:45 PM
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Foxy: "I applaud the ABC for continuing to expose the Australian psyche to unpopular and dangerous opinions."

As I said before foxy. I agree with you, but for entirely different reason.

Hey I guess Grandma won't be wanting to get her grand kids & daughter home now, seeing the Son-in-Law survived. Oh well, maybe they'll have better luck next time.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 28 June 2015 7:15:07 PM
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Notice that all of the supporters of the ABC are completely unable to give any non-circular reason why it should be state-funded? All they ever prove is that they like what it produces, and sarcastically abuse anyone who dares to call them on their privilege.
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Sunday, 28 June 2015 8:42:29 PM
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Notice that Abbott's and the Coalition's approval rating has been suffering in the polls lately? That homelessness is increasing? Youth unemployment is growing? That consumer confidence is in the toilet? That we have historically low interest rates that are even lower than those during the GFC? (That is not a good sign of economic health btw)

It's obviously time to ramp up the fear and hate, and while we are at it, attack non-corporate media outlets - the Coalition is no friend of any public TV - whether it is the ABC, SBS or Community TV.
Community TV will be booted off air in the next 12 months.
Community TV: Malcolm Turnbull confirms licensing for stations will end in 2015 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-10/community-television-kicked-off-air-by-federal-government/5733690

Have you had your 2 minutes of hate today?
Posted by BJelly, Sunday, 28 June 2015 10:25:03 PM
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According to a recent Essential poll, 63% of Australians trust the ABC news and current affairs, compared to 46% commercial TV news and current affairs. Trust in Tony Abbott was at a mere 31%.

Corporate media can never be unbiased. It has a commercial imperative to be corporate friendly. It can't afford to bite the hand that feeds it. That is where having a strong public broadcaster is of real value. In the commercial world, news and current affairs need to make money. The ABC and SBS don't have that constraint. They can afford to be more critical of powerful institutions - public and private - or at least they should be.
Posted by BJelly, Sunday, 28 June 2015 11:51:49 PM
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Good posts, onthebeach and Jayb.

Bad post, Foxy. Your premise is, that Zacky Mallah is a reformed individual who just wants to help save young Muslims from going on Jihad. Everything this crazy young Muslim, who once proudly bragged that he was "Australia's first terrorist" says, you accept as fact. It is a good thing that Mallah has not tried to join the Comanchero Biker club like Monis, outlaw bikers seem to be more adept at figuring out who has credibility than you or your fellow "progressives."

I have no objection to Zacky Mallah speaking on anything. However much I oppose Hizb-ut-Tahrir in Australia, I support the idea of them speaking in public, so that even people like yourself can see what a serious danger to your own society these foreign imports are. What I object to, is a politically partisan and taxpayer funded media using a person like Mallah as some sort of tortured innocent, who is unjustly being persecuted by the Australian government, in a failed bid to embarrass a government minister who is charged with protecting our society from people like Mallah.

It is just like the ABC using OJ Simpson as a special guest on a program about domestic violence, and using him as an example how men found innocent of murdering their wives are treated badly by government officials who, despite the acquittal, still consider them dangerous.

And thank you for bringing up "Charlie Hedbo." What we had with that example was a bunch of intellectuals who supported Muslim immigration, while at the same time refusing to recognise the serious danger France was importing into it's own society. Maybe the truth finally dawned upon them in that instant when some Jihadi burst into their conference room and pointed an AK 47 at their heads? If you want free speech, or democracy, or gender equality, or secular government, then supporting the importation of large numbers of people who violently oppose these concepts is insanity.
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 29 June 2015 6:47:22 AM
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As a fringe broadcaster the ABC should not get a total subsidy. Sell it.
Posted by McCackie, Monday, 29 June 2015 9:28:04 AM
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The ABC is a "fringe broadcaster"? News to me and the millions of people who spend hours listening to it each day...

Funny how it's all the fringe loonies who aren't willing to stand up and be recognised for their views who are howling though...
Posted by Craig Minns, Monday, 29 June 2015 9:48:17 AM
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'According to a recent Essential poll, 63% of Australians trust the ABC new'

thanks for confirming how many ignorant people their are out their BJelly. Julia and Bill were/are so truthworthy.
Posted by runner, Monday, 29 June 2015 11:16:29 AM
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Dear LEGO,

I stopped reading your posts ages ago.

Dear runner,

The only thing that I can think of in response
to your "drive-by" comments on any issue is:

"Ah runner, our forum's self-proclaimed Christian...
If only you would really follow the teachings of Christ.
His ordinance of total love, and belief in forgiveness,
even of an enemy. You would then shed fathomless light
on this forum.

Sadly you are not that kind of a Christian believer."
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 29 June 2015 11:31:44 AM
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not trying to get ya eh Jonathon?
Posted by Shalmaneser, Monday, 29 June 2015 11:57:42 AM
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Foxy

'Sadly you are not that kind of a Christian believer."'

thankfully your judgement proves consistently wrong Foxy.
Posted by runner, Monday, 29 June 2015 12:14:17 PM
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I notice in todays Courier Mail, two of the writers must have been reading our posts LEGGO & OTB.

Foxy: "Ah runner, our forum's self-proclaimed Christian... If only you would really follow the teachings of Christ. His ordinance of total love, and belief in forgiveness, even of an enemy.

All very well, Foxy, but do they reciprocate. I don't think so. They just think it a good because good Christians will turn the other cheek just to be smite again & again & again. They are just having fun with us at our expense.
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 29 June 2015 12:36:36 PM
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Shalmaneser, you imply that I may be paranoid given my views of the ABC.

Sorry, but you got that one wrong.

“Paranoia” can be defined as:

“An unfounded or exaggerated distrust of others, sometimes reaching delusional proportions”.

There is nothing “unfounded”, “exaggerated” or “delusional” about an objective observation of the editorial output of the ABC that reveals (once again) a bias against mainstream values.

That said, I have no issue with extreme views being aired in public, be they of the hard left (such as the ABC) or the hard right.

Like many, I just consider it outrageous that my tax dollars are used to pay for them.

Let such views succeed or fail in the marketplace for ideas on their own dime.

Wouldn’t the funds that currently go to the ABC do more good to society if they were applied to say, reducing homelessness?
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Monday, 29 June 2015 12:46:56 PM
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I've been watching this thread with interest and biting my tongue.

I've made a resolution to stop responding to Foxy or Poirot. It's less painful to just bang my head against the wall instead.
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Monday, 29 June 2015 12:51:20 PM
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See what happens, Craig, when you devote your listening time to the ABC. You fail to realise that they are a limited, distorted purveyor of fringe broadcasting.
I listen to them on the basis that it is important to know the enemy. You listen because you are a lefty, and believe that fringe broadcasting is “normal”, just as you believe that same sex "marriage" is "normal".
Posted by Leo Lane, Monday, 29 June 2015 12:59:24 PM
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Jonathon you and gerard henderson should get together and share your delusional paranoia about the ABC. your "concerns" are matched equally if not more by "concerns" about right wing bias at the ABC expressed by left wing delusional paranoids. I recommend a good lie down.
Posted by Shalmaneser, Monday, 29 June 2015 1:04:39 PM
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Leo, my primary viewing/listening of the ABC is to the news service. I also watch occasional informational and entertainment programs.

When I was on the road a lot I was a regular listener to ABC local radio, especially the Steve Austin, Spencer Howson and Kelly Higgins-Devine programs, but I rarely listen to them otherwise.

Most of my news coverage comes from my regular perusal of websites, such as the various News.com sites, the NYT, LAT, BBC, Daily Mail, Guardian and the Fairfax sites to name a very small subset. The ABC website is generally not on my regular menu of choices, since it is not usually as up to date as some of the others.

Perhaps your perception of me as a "lefty" is more due to the fact that you are an "idiot" than anything to do with reality?

And yes, I do support marriage equality, on both humanitarian and strictly ethical grounds. You shouldn't feel left out though, my ethical position also extends to the view that idiots should be allowed to marry, if they can find someone silly enough to marry them. Shame about the kids though...

Shalmaneser, Jonathan isn't paranoid, he's simply aware that his own extreme views won't withstand a moderate and well-considered evaluation, so he'd like to limit the public to only seeing a strictly polarised set of ideas. In other words, he's simply intellectually lazy, as well as lacking in the ethics department.
Posted by Craig Minns, Monday, 29 June 2015 1:30:26 PM
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Dear ConservativeHippie,

Banging your head against the wall?

Well each to their own "poison."

Mine happens to be sugar.

Although as Ogden Nash wrote:

"Candy is dandy,
But liquor is quicker!"

BTW: Regarding your reference to bricks and mortar...
I fully understand your reluctance in not wanting
to invest. I've heard tell that bricks and mortar
are not the investment they once were.

Dear runner,

You need to lose the fear of being wrong.

It's part of your persona.

Accept it.

We have - ages ago.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 29 June 2015 1:42:35 PM
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Craig.
Lefties are identifiable by their reaction to valid argument, to which they, of course, have no rational or valid response to offer.

Their fall-back position is criticism and abuse of the proponent of the valid assertion. They make baseless assertions that the persons having opinions that they do not like, are idiots, or should be comedians.

It simply underlines that they have no valid basis for their position, and shows, beyond doubt, that they are a lefty.
Posted by Leo Lane, Monday, 29 June 2015 1:53:52 PM
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Try reading this thread up to here. How much of it is content-free pissing contests informed by a phoney “left” vs “right” dog whistle contest? How much is based on fact and argument about issues, like whether the ABC should be privatised and how this does or doesn’t relate to the issue of each individual choosing where to direct his or her taxes? (One correspondent did challenge this notion). A question asked so far back I forget who asked it was whether the whining Moslem Zaky Mallah’s views were leftist or rightist. It was a challenging question for all the dog whistlers, and didn’t bring a response from any dog of them. Even Mallah’s campaign against human garbage joining ISIS was merely part of a pissing contest between ISIS and Al Qa’eda which is his current chosen enemy of humanity.

To pin my own flag to the mast, good on the ABC for manoeuvring this creep into exposing an Islamic perspective. There are the usual claims this Islamic perspective is anathema to “average Moslems”. Maybe at least one “average Moslem” will say so publicly and say why. Maybe an “average Moslem” in the Q&A audience may have wished to challenge Mallah’s rubbish. Listen hard to the sound of silence
Posted by EmperorJulian, Monday, 29 June 2015 2:42:18 PM
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' Listen hard to the sound of silence

actually EmperorJulian there was applause from the regressives who thought they had a setup/getup gothcha moment.
Posted by runner, Monday, 29 June 2015 3:02:56 PM
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You are right, runner. It was a stupid question, like most lefty questions. Per se, Snaky Malarky’s statements are not classifiable. His anti-ISIS stand, were it not so obviously fake is right wing. His desire to inflict people like himself on our community is left wing, which is why his support for that aspect comes from the left, and in particular from the ABC.
It is not relevant to this thread. It was posted by a lefty, and approved in a subsequent post by another lefty, as one would expect.
Julian also mentioned:” content-free pissing contests”. We have the nonsense of same sex marriage, but opposite sex pissing contests are also over the limit. Find an appropriate label, Julian. That one was past its use-by date in any event. You worked it to death.
Posted by Leo Lane, Monday, 29 June 2015 4:11:18 PM
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CM: And yes, I do support marriage equality, on both humanitarian and strictly ethical grounds. You shouldn't feel left out though, my ethical position also extends to the view that idiots should be allowed to marry, if they can find someone silly enough to marry them. Shame about the kids though...

So how DO you feel about Goats?
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 29 June 2015 4:12:19 PM
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Without the contribution of the ABC Australian TV would be a desert in which the finding of an oasis would be very rare indeed.

The ABC, besides its contentious opinion programmes brings to the viewers a wealth of interesting output.

"Sacred River" was a very recent piece that was notable not only for the viewpoints put forward but for some entertaining clangers as well.
"Antiques Roadshow" is instructive as well as entertaining as is also the "Eggheads".
There is a series coming up on Captain Arthur Phillip and it promises well,
So roll on the ABC, which, be it noted, spends a lot of its money in Australia in producing shows.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 29 June 2015 5:59:06 PM
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Dear Craig,

Julian Burnside QC, wrote sometime ago about media
ownership in Australia being notoriously narrow.
That although we live in a torrent of information there
is such a limited range of available views.

Burnside stated what we already know - that
mainstream media offers precious little diversity and
such diversity as there is runs along predictable
lines.

An article in The Conversation also - pointed out the fact
that due to Australia's small population and the high
concentration of few media voices - public broadcasters
play a pivotal role in shaping the media ecosystem and
cultural landscape.

With the ABC (and SBS) currently under scrutiny,
the future of public
broadcasting in Australia is being threatened.
Which is a pity.

Let us look at some facts.

The ABC received A$1,030 million in the May 2012-13 Federal
Budget supplemented by an additional A$158.2 million from
commercial and other income streams.

Per capita this works out to the sum of 14 cents a day for
every man, woman and child in the country.
For that the Australian media consumer gets 4 TV channels,
national and local radio and online content.

Who can seriously complain - given how many million
Australians pay hundreds of dollars a year to Foxtel,
that 14 cents a day for the ABC is excessive.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 29 June 2015 6:37:07 PM
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Dear Emperor Julian,

Muslims are speaking out but it appears that
no one is listening. Positive actions by
Muslims isn't newsworthy
and anything positive regarding Muslims does
not get media coverage, unfortunately.
Therefore the impression of mistrust is maintained
which suits the current political game being played.

When the Australian National Imans Council issued a
media statement that likened Islamic
State to a "group of criminals," it received little
or any coverage. The same went for when the world's
most prominent Muslim leaders, and Islamic organisations
denounce Islamic State - we don't get to read about it.

Are you aware of the global Twitter campaign
#NotinMyName that is being used by Muslims to denounce the
actions and ideology of Islamic State?

And there's much more.
However, as can be seen from the many posts in this
discussion - some people are not interested in explanations.
They are more interested in condemnation and punishment
than in explanation. Explanations seem tantamount to
sympathizing and excusing.

This as I've stated in the past all too easily leads
onto the questionable practice of stereotyping entire groups
of people. And unless people are prepared to modify their
judgements continued stereotyping can encourage "counter-
stereotyping" and the result is usually a complete breakdown
in communication.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 29 June 2015 7:07:32 PM
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Foxy: When the Australian National Imams Council issued a media statement that likened Islamic State to a "group of criminals," it received little or any coverage. The same went for when the world's
most prominent Muslim leaders, and Islamic organisations denounce Islamic State - we don't get to read about it.

Are these the same Imams that set up the Great Southern Caliphate Conference at Merrylands last year? The one where their speaker spoke about it being OK to beat you wife & turn Australia into an The Great Southern Islamic Caliphate with Sharia Law & every thing that comes with being Islamic & Middle Eastern. Maybe including their type of Sectarian Wars. Lovely people don't you think?
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 29 June 2015 7:46:38 PM
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Curious article: don't you realize that the PM has boycotted ABC since he came to office - his default media are 2GB and SKY.
Posted by wantok, Monday, 29 June 2015 8:15:16 PM
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I'm afraid the Moslems, in their own holy books, have stereotyped the entire global population of 7000 million: 750 million superior Moslem men, 750 million inferior Moslem women, and 5500 million infidels fit only to submit or be put to death. For access to explanations and not mere condemnations, see work of, for example, Ibn Warraq and Rayond Ibrahim, both eminently Googlable. To avoid this, better just hide. But it's an explanation of why the Moslem Fifth Column is so widely detested in the Western world, rather than a mere condemnation of its being isolated.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Monday, 29 June 2015 8:16:37 PM
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Wantok

Permit me to clarify.

I am not suggesting the PM personally boycotts the ABC.
I am suggesting that he and Warren Truss instruct the entire coalition parliamentary membership to disengage forthwith from the ABC:

On TV and radio they should cease

All interviews
All appearances
All photo ops
All door-stops

Soon enough the ABC’s audience, so enamoured of bashing Middle Australia will tune out of Aunty.

After all, when there isn’t even a token non-Left politician on say the television programs of Q & A and Lateline or radio shows like AM or PM, many loyal viewers and listeners will very soon get very bored.
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Monday, 29 June 2015 8:44:41 PM
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They'll all come scuttling back as soon as this distraction blows over because that's all it is - a strategy of distraction and they need the ABC more than it needs them.

Like Triggs' comments on refugee conditions, the question asked on QandA went unanswered and was deliberately escalated into something else to avoid addressing any questions.

Steve Ciabo was also the Minister who compared Gillard to an alcoholic and used the "slit her throat" expression about her leadership, so he's no stranger to intemperate remarks.

As for ABC funding, it costs the average family about $150 per annum for the ABC - which is closely monitored by everybody.

The so-called "free-to-air" media is funded by a levy on all goods called advertising, which cost the average family about $2,100 per year and is free to editorialise any way the owners decide, and that's typically for self-interest.

So now we have private, self-interested media owners charging you $2,100 for the privilege of complaining how your $150 is being spent and you are all being played for suckers if you believe otherwise.

Dance, monkeys, dance!
Posted by wobbles, Monday, 29 June 2015 9:21:11 PM
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Wobbles the ABC needs our taxpayer money to survive. We need the ABC like a hole in the head.

We should sell it either to the highest bidder, or better still, to Andrew Bolt, for it's real value. About $1.00 should do.

Wouldn't it be great watching those clowns like Jones, reporting to Bolt, if they want to still collect their exorbitant salaries.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 29 June 2015 11:37:01 PM
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I applaud the ABC for providing an insight into what is happening in the nexus between courts and those accused of breaking the laws on terrorism. Whilst I subscribe to the rule of law and decry the situation where a member of the public can allegedly threaten to kill someone, especially those charged with enforcing the laws of the land, and then walk scott free, that is the law unfortunately. The problem then seems to sit squarly with the legislators, Mr Abbott. Clean up your act first, I think, before throwing stones at the ABC.

I would lastly suggest to Jonathan J. Ariel that if he thinks yankee-land is so wonderful, ta ta!
Posted by deadly, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 5:17:59 AM
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Paul Sheehan is right, the ABC is not a monolith. Attention should be directed at the influence of particular individuals, examples being Executive Producer Peter McEvoy and Host, Tony Jones.

ABC bias peaks with Zaky Mallah appearance
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/abc-bias-peaks-with-zaky-mallah-appearance-20150628-ghzvys.html
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 5:32:05 AM
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Thank you for your last post, Foxy. Not only did you put your foot right in it, you managed to fall in right up to your neck.

Your premise is, that commercial media is primarilly right wing, so the public should not mind paying 14 cents per day, per person, to have the ABC be the propaganda vehicle for the Labor Party and the Greens.

Such a position takes it for granted that the ABC is a left wing media organisation.

The problem is, that such a position is in violation of it's charter to be an impartial organisation. Furthermore, the reason why commercial media is popular with the majority of people is because it represents the views of the majority. People quickly get sick and tired of left wing moralisers wagging their fingers at ordinary people's values and attitudes, and always having a default position which puts the interests of foreigners over their own citizens.

That is why the public abandoned the left wing commercial media ages ago. Today, the Sydney Morning Herald has not only adopted a new format to win back customers, it has toned down the criticisms of it's own customer base which drove them away in the first place.

It is not the place of a taxpayer funded media organisation to be the propaganda arm for people with fringe group political views, anymore than it is the place of Sydney Water to advance the interests of people who oppose fluoridation, or for the Electricity Commission to advance the interests of groups who oppose coal fired electrical generators.

If you want a left wing media, then keep buying the Green Left Weekly. But don't expect the taxpayers that you despise to be your piggy bank and bankroll a publically owned media which always opposes the interests of the people who own it.
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 8:01:02 AM
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Foxy,

"This as I've stated in the past all too easily leads
onto the questionable practice of stereotyping entire groups
of people. And unless people are prepared ...."

Muslims are stereotyped, I must admit, and the stereotyping is done by themselves by their adherence to the Koran and their Prophet's example and teachings.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 8:13:46 AM
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"Would the posters here classify Zaky Mallah and his comments as "left wing" or "right wing"?", Pericles.

Hmmm... He seems like a very cross person, so I'd classify him as a "crossbencher".

But! The government ministers seem very cross too, though I think they want to put Mallah across a bench and give him a good spanking, which he richly deserves and would be for his own good, of course.

A spanking just like they are doing to the ABC.

But as with all S&M I worry more about the psychology of the sadists than the masochists (who, when you think about it, are just asking for it).
Posted by WmTrevor, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 8:42:10 AM
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"Would the posters here classify Zaky Mallah and his comments as "left wing" or "right wing"?", Pericles

Easily answered, see here,

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis/islamic_viewpoints/the_totalitarian_nature_of_islam/
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 12:02:10 PM
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We've certainly had an intense week.

Comments from our Prime Minister and
his team, followed
by the shockjocks at Sydney's Radio 2GB.

News Corp's The Australian - giving us
front page treatment and Rupert Murdoch's army of columnists
and editorial writers all falling behind to complete the attack.

Why? - all because of the appearance
on Q&A of a hothead Muslim called Zaky Mallah - whom the
ABC allowed into a studio debate to ask a question about the
new anti-terror laws.

A panel member stated last night on Q&A the Liberal MP
Steve Ciobo missed the opportunity to answer Zaky Mallah
in a calm and mature way. Instead Mr Ciobo chose to provoke,
and ignited the situation. We all know what happened next.

In a program about terror it was
reasonable to have Mallah in, and in calmer times most of
the Australian media have shared this view. For example -

Mallah has appeared many times in the media in the past.
Six on SBS, six on ABC, three on Channel 7, four on Channel 10,
twice on 3AW and on each on 2UE and Perth's 6PR.

Mallah also featured on News Corp's papers including an
exclusive in The Australian - September 2012 - which judged
him reformed. According to The Australian story Mallah was
anti-violence, pro freedom and a devout supporter of
Australian democracy.

And two months earlier on Channel 10's - The Project, Mallah
was condemning Islamic State as idiots, criminals, and
warning Australian teenagers not to go to the Middle East
to fight.

Had the Liberal MP Steve Ciobo reacted differently to Zaky
Mallah - following our former PM's example of his reaction
to David Hicks on Q&A, we would not have this incident today.

Truly a missed opportunity to have shown not only Zaky Mallah
but other young Muslims watching the program - what a
mature, and egalitarian government we have running this country.
Confirming our belief in the democratic traditions of
equality for all under our legal framework.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 12:21:27 PM
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Fox, "Had the Liberal MP Steve Ciobo reacted differently to Zaky Mallah - following our former PM's example of his reaction to David Hicks on Q&A, we would not have this incident today"

False comparison.

An excellent example though of the ABC setting up invitees it doesn't like for an ambush. Highly unethical, as is making news.

I want the old Auntie back. The independent one that didn't waste millions on tawdry politicking.

Paul Sheehan is right to say that the ABC is not a monolith and scrutiny should be directed at the influence of particular individuals, examples being Executive Producer Peter McEvoy and Host, Tony Jones.

ABC bias peaks with Zaky Mallah appearance
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/abc-bias-peaks-with-zaky-mallah-appearance-20150628-ghzvys.html
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 12:49:41 PM
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'Truly a missed opportunity to have shown not only Zaky Mallah
but other young Muslims watching the program - what a
mature, and egalitarian government we have running this country.'

what a joke. The regressives demomised anyone speaking about allowing hoards of anti Western people into our nation. Now its conservatives fault because they are having to clean up the regressives mess. The boat problem has been fixed (drownings stopped) however this current mess largely created by ideology of the left will not be fixed by 'maturity'. It will only be improved by speaking the truth as the minister did.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 1:19:57 PM
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//however this current mess... will not be fixed by 'maturity'.//

No, god forbid that adults should behave in a mature fashion. What the world come to if everybody started acting their age?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 1:26:10 PM
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Foxy: A panel member stated last night on Q&A the Liberal MP Steve Ciobo missed the opportunity to answer Zaky Mallah in a calm and mature way. Instead Mr Ciobo chose to provoke, and ignited the situation. We all know what happened next.

Yep, we sure do. Mallah real moslem nature came to the front.

Foxy: And two months earlier on Channel 10's - The Project, Mallah was condemning Islamic State as idiots, criminals, and warning Australian teenagers not to go to the Middle East to fight.

Yet he supports Al Nusa an Al Queada off shoot. Which is just as bad.

So do you prefer Al Nusa over ISIS, Foxy?
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 2:10:35 PM
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Toni you have obviously never seen what happens to cheese when it matures to much. Just look at the over educated judges in Amercia and you will get the message.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 2:11:14 PM
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Our political conversation must shift away from
the mass, infantile finger-pointing that now
pervades it.

It isn't the "Left," or the "Right," the "Progressives," or
the "Regressives," who are ruining this country. It is the
tendency on so many people's parts to think that their way
is the right way and that people who disagree with them, are
"bad."

It doesn't matter so much how we degenerated into such a mass
of disrespect for the rights of others to hold opinions
different from our own. What does matter is that we need to
commit to fixing this problem.

Anyway, I've had my say on this discussion.
For me it has now run its course and I bid you
all a good-day.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 2:11:40 PM
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onthebeach, do you think the ABC should only let the tough questions be put to those you disagree with? Or do you think it should avoid the tough questions altogether?
Posted by Aidan, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 2:55:59 PM
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The suggestion that the Minister missed an opportunity to respond reasonably to Snaky disregards the fact that people like the insolent Snaky take reasonable behaviour as weakness.
It is not their religion that makes people like Snaky undesirable immigrants. It is their low intelligence. They simply do not have the capacity to take advantage of the golden opportunity which the Australian community offers those with the brains to take up what is on offer. Snaky will always be a duplicitous troublemaker, and will no doubt come to the disastrous conclusion that his arrogance will attract.
Posted by Leo Lane, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 6:05:13 PM
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Foxy,

Mallah's veracity may be taken with a grain or two of salt.

The religion that he espouses says that it is OK to lie to infidels.

So how do we know when he is telling the truth?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 6:32:22 PM
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Leo Lane,
"The suggestion that the Minister missed an opportunity to respond reasonably to Snaky disregards the fact that people like the insolent Snaky take reasonable behaviour as weakness."
Even if that dubious "fact" were true, you're disregarding the observed fact that it was hostility, not weakness, that triggered his reaction. You're also ignoring his valid point (yes, even idiots like him make valid points occasionally) that alienating people makes them far more likely to side with our enemies.
Posted by Aidan, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 6:34:59 PM
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I have a question that should be asked of all Moslems who whine about the fact that people shun them and leave them with a feeling of isolation which makes some of them to cross the world to rape and massacre their betters. As there are no Moslems on this thread, the question can instead be asked of Western apologists who admonish the community for shunning the Moslems and leaving them isolated and “picked on”. The question is this:

What is it about the Moslems, throughout the civilised world, that they have to suffer this mass underlying hostility and increasingly draconic “national security” laws targeting them? Why not the Buddhists? Or the Popists? Or the Presbyterians? Or the Jews? Or the Sikhs? Or the Irish? Or the Greeks? Why no other “minority” whom such a large number of people dislike?

I have my own answer, and it is as set out in the excellent account provided by onthebeach:
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis/islamic_viewpoints/the_totalitarian_nature_of_islam/ , which nevertheless didn’t say whether this cult is “left” or “right” though it contained an observation of Bertrand Russell that its claims of being the one true faith had structural similarities to Bolshevism (as it also has to the Church of Rome)
Posted by EmperorJulian, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 9:29:37 PM
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Aiden, they are already alienated, if they are open in any way, to joining Islamic State. It is not our function to appease this scum, if they are open,at all, to joining the criminals.
They have to accept the obligation to support the community upon which they have inflicted themselves, and show some gratitude, not aggression, to their benefactors, and be deprived of citizenship if they neglect to do so. This has not, to any degree, penetrated Snaky’s thick skull.
Posted by Leo Lane, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 9:43:45 PM
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//Mallah's veracity may be taken with a grain or two of salt.

The religion that he espouses says that it is OK to lie to infidels.

So how do we know when he is telling the truth?//

How do we know when anybody's telling the truth, Is Mise? Polygraphs are decidedly dodgy. I did read an interesting article some time ago about 'human lie detectors' - people with the ability to tell when people are lying with far greater accuracy than a polygraph - but apparently people with this talent are few and far between, and they still suffer the same limitation as ploygraphs insofar as they can't tell when a man is telling lies if said man believes those lies to be true.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 11:28:13 PM
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Leo Lane
"Aiden, they are already alienated, if they are open in any way, to joining Islamic State. It is not our function to appease this scum, if they are open,at all, to joining the criminals."
Reducing further alienation is likely to be a lot more effective in preventing them joining ISIL than harsher laws. So if the objective is to stop people from joining ISIL, sensibly responding to their questions is absolutely our function!

Unfortunately the government's aim seems to be to look tough on terrorism rather than to actually do anything that would prevent it.
Posted by Aidan, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 11:38:14 PM
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The ABC can ask all of the "tough questions" they like, Aiden. provided that they abide by their founding charter to be fair and impartial about it.
Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 7:39:03 AM
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Toni Lavis,

We have to trust that people are telling us the truth but how can we place trust in those whose religion tells them that they may lie?

That is one of the great fundamental differences between most other religions and Islam.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 9:49:05 AM
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LEGO, firstly, have you any evidence they haven't been fair and impartial about it?

Secondly, what counts as fair and impartial? Should the tough questions be evenly distributed? Or should more of them be directed at those proposing controversial policies?
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 10:43:29 AM
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Aiden,” , have you any evidence they haven't been fair and impartial about it?”
You cannot be as ignorant as you pretend. You are a troll.
If you really did refrain from reading Paul Sheehan’s article, to which onthebeach was good enough to supply the link, in order to preserve your ignorance,then read it now, and you will not need to ask stupid questions
Posted by Leo Lane, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 11:20:30 AM
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Unless you are radical, Left or Right, who really watches Q & A, Insight & the other associated like Programmes. Most ABC watchers look for the Doco & Comedy & Dr Who. I think most people watch Commercial Stations for their normal TV watching.

I don't actually watch much TV at all really. The News on 7 & The Project is about it. Oh, ABC at Midday while I'm having lunch.

Should we boycott the ABC for one silly instance. Who really gives a stuff?
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 2:05:45 PM
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Jayb is showing a sense of proportion. The ideologues won't like it!
Posted by EmperorJulian, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 3:02:02 PM
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I don't know that anyone is suggesting a viewer boycott.

However, any distinguished person should consider a refusal as the prudent course where there is a risk of being set up as (to give another example) Peter Hitchens obviously felt he was and many would agree with him on that. This is the subject Q&A,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQY4BuYWD4s

One wonders too how Q&A is consistently able to find audiences who applaud the disrespectful behaviour and crudity that were seen on that show, to use it again as an example.

It was interesting too that the host allowed audience members to argue with Hitchens from the floor. I am damned sure that no audience comprised of any of the hundreds of people I have met through work would ever be party to any of that and no, they would not opt to be a member of a Q&A audience for those reasons alone.

As a coliseum for the baiting and humiliation of selected guests, Q&A does well. The shabby conduct is reminiscent of the awful current affairs hacks from way back when.

If the ABC's Board is unable to rein in management the Board Members should do the right thing and step aside for others who are more able and understand due diligence and accountability.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 4:57:35 PM
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//We have to trust that people are telling us the truth//

No, we don't. If we like we can accept the cynical proposition that 'everybody lies'. This is actually my default position, but if you have some new evidence to suggest that not everybody lies I'd love to see it. I'd also love to see any evidence that demonstrates that Muslims lie more than followers of other religious doctrines (other than Scientology).

//how can we place trust in those whose religion tells them that they may lie?//

The same way we place trust in those whose religion (or lack thereof) is ambivalent on the subject of lying, and who lie because it is a basic human instinct.

//That is one of the great fundamental differences between most other religions and Islam.//

I think it is reasonable to assume at this point that Is Mise has never heard of Scientology. Scientology's attitude to the truth makes the most deceitful Muslim on Earth look like a shining example of truth and veracity.

So where are all the cultural warriors castigating Scientologists? My guess would be that they're too scared of the towel-heads under the bed to worry about what any other religion might be trying to sell as the 'truth'.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 5:34:08 PM
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Toni, try to understand the basis of the discussion. We are talking about a world wide religion that promotes killing those who will not submit to it, not just lying to them, and otherwise treating them with contempt. To reference Scientology as if it were comparable is puerile.
Posted by Leo Lane, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 9:46:30 PM
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TL: Scientology's attitude to the truth makes the most deceitful Muslim on Earth look like a shining example of truth and veracity.

There is a big difference between the Hierarchy lying about a Religion to its followers & a Religion directing it's followers to lie to outsiders in order to advance it's cause.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 2 July 2015 8:14:18 AM
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//There is a big difference between the Hierarchy lying about a Religion to its followers & a Religion directing it's followers to lie to outsiders in order to advance it's cause.//

And Scientology does both.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 2 July 2015 1:52:47 PM
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