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The Forum > Article Comments > Reclaiming citizenship > Comments

Reclaiming citizenship : Comments

By David Leyonhjelm, published 11/5/2015

However, the protestors make a dreadful mistake in viewing all Muslims as a group, represented either by violent Islamists or the conservative 'community leaders' that governments and the media persist in treating as spokesmen.

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Hey David, if most people view Nazis and Ku Klux Klansmen negatively "as a group", then why are Muslims any different?

Your denial of group judgements looks a little foolish when you, yourself, called the people which you looked down on "the great unwashed." By that I presume that you mean uneducated and ignorant people from the lower classes? Apparently such people do not bathe. That is a negative prejudgement.

Then you contradicted yourself and admitted that well, gee, we do have a few problems with Muslims, like child marriages, homophobia, misogyny and support for terrorism. Guess what, David, you just negatively stereotyped Muslims.

Perhaps you are implying that most Muslims do not believe in those concepts? Then you just pre judged them as a group once again. You see, David, if it is OK to prejudge entire groups of people with positive characteristics, it must be OK to prejudge them with negative ones also.

Now, could you please tell us how Muslims do not believe in these concepts if they accept Sharia Law as the core value of Islam? And if they do not accept Sharia Law as the core value of Islam, how are they Muslims?

You can not be a Nazi or a Ku Klux Klansmen unless you believe in the core principles which make you a Nazi or a Ku Klux Klansmen. Same for Muslims. You can't say that most Muslims do not believe in the core values of Islam, and that most Muslims are really progressive social democrats (it is just a few hotheads that give all of them a bad name) unless you extend that logic to Nazis and Ku Klux Klansmen.

But you won't do that, will you?

Islam is fundamentally opposed to the core values of a liberal and secular democracy. Therefore, it's adherents must be similarly opposed to our value systems and have no place in our society. On simply one point alone, the belief among Muslims that all apostates to Islam should be murdered, should permanently prevent Muslims from immigrating into Australia.
Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 3:51:00 AM
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LEGO, Islam is a religion, not a terrorist organization nor a philosophy of persecuting certain ethnic groups.

Muslims who do not accept Sharia Law as the core value of Islam are still Muslims because they believe that thhere's one God and that Mohammed is His prophet. Most avoid pork and alcohol (though in practice many consume alcohol when thhey're young but subsequently give it up). Praying toward Mecca five times a day is another sure sign, as is fasting during the daytime in Ramadan. And they've been to Mecca, or intend to go in future if they can afford it.

Sharia Law is not usually regarded as one of their core values. And there are also many Muslims who accept it as a code of ethics but would oppose it becoming the law of the land.
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 9:55:53 AM
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and they believe that the Koran is the word of God, as revealed to Muhammad; that is the stumbling block.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 5:29:22 PM
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The Koran is the word of God, Mohammed is his prophet. Each is faultless. If you accept all of its nastiness without exception you're a Moslem. If you don't you're not. It's that simple despite the obscurantism Moslem "community leaders" and Western apologists throw over it to gull the punters.

The nastiness of the Koran is contained in the instructions that "abrogate" earlier parts. The earlier, nicey nicey parts, were put in there as "taqiyya" - the Moslem term for tactical lying - to fool people until Mohammed gained enough power to start his wars of conquest, rape, robbery and murder to expand the rule of Islam. It's still on - PC taqiyya, then terrorism and brutal murder when they gain the upper hand. Here's a very small selection of the instructions in the Koran that you must take to heart to be a Moslem:

22:19 (or 22:20):- But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. (http://www.multimediaquran.com/quran/022/022-019.htm) [[ See footnote, "Fire garments" ]]
47:8 (or 47:9):- But as for those who disbelieve, let them perish:
47:35 (or 47:37):- Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand
48:16:- Ye shall do battle with them, or they shall profess Islam.

True they’re not racists. Their target for annihilation isn’t an ethnic group, it’s infidels, meaning those not evil enough to accept the Islamic message. Bertrand Russell rightly labelled Islam part of the intellectual armoury of fascism.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Wednesday, 13 May 2015 6:04:42 PM
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Aiden, Islam is a bunch of misogynist thugs masquerading as a religion. It is not only a "religion" it is a complete social, political and legal system which Muslims insist is beyond criticism. As such, it is undemocratic and contrary to core western values of freedom of speech, personnel freedom, gender equality, and secular government. Why you as a supposed "liberal' would defend this fascist ideology, is beyond me. Perhaps your mind registers "Muslim", "minority" and your brain over rides your critical analysis circuit, and you then reflexively parrot the slogans of multiculturalism, thinking that it makes you sound intelligent.

If any Muslims do not believe in Sharia Law, they had better not go around saying it to their friends, or the local mullah will probably have them murdered.

The "moderate" organisation speaking for Muslims in Australia is the Australian Islamic Council. So far, the AIC have asked from the Australian government, Islamic divorce courts where you and I know the Muslim women will get shafted, and for Muslims to be exempted from voting, as democracy is contrary to Islam. The leaders of the AIC are so devout and holy, that some of them have ben charged over defrauding the Commonwealth over the number of Muslim children in their madrasses.

Catholics believe in the core values of Catholicism, and if they do not, they are not Catholics. They are supposed to believe in no divorce, no contraception, no abortion, and no sex before marriage, but plenty of Catholics have engaged in those sins. But they know what they are doing is wrong, according to their own religion.

Muslims believe in the core values of Islam, and if they do not, they are not Muslims. There may be some Muslims who are comfortable living in a democracy and voting, and who may even drink alcohol, but they know that what they are doing is wrong, according to their own religion.
Posted by LEGO, Thursday, 14 May 2015 4:06:34 AM
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Lego,

"Catholics believe in the core values of Catholicism, and if they do not, they are not Catholics."
They are still Catholics, although 'in error'.

"They are supposed to believe in no divorce, no contraception, no abortion, and no sex before marriage, but plenty of Catholics have engaged in those sins. But they know what they are doing is wrong, according to their own religion."
but you make the erroneous assumption that these are core values, they are not.
Core values are expressed in 'The Creed' and there is, outside of this , vast disagreement; and to an extent abortion, contraception (some forms of which are approved by the Church) and divorce are allowed and sex before marriage has been condoned and even encouraged in the past, especially where such proof of the bride's fertility was socially necessary to demonstrate her capacity to start a family.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 15 May 2015 5:04:21 PM
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