"The wisdom of crowds is not always terribly wise."

That's an understatement, the fiction of mass extermination camps is also believed by a great many "learned" people despite all the evidence pointing away from such a conclusion.
Shouldn't information such as the GPCC reports intercepted by Bletchley Park at least raise some doubt in the mind of Holocaust believers?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.info/decrypts/ww2decrypts.html
So when Kurt Gerstein described how 25 million people were killed at Treblinka alone yet the Hofl telegram suggests a death toll of 174,000 in all "special actions" on the Eastern front and the Red Cross tracing service gave an estimate of 274,000 does that not create a problem for believers?
Wouldn't the author be moved to look a bit deeper into his subject before writing an article?
He may say he did his research but is he aware of the way Google prioritises search results relating to the Holocaust, how affirmations are filtered to the top of the list and criticisms to the bottom?
The only reason people believe in a holocaust where millions of people were killed because of their race is because they've never looked at any of the available evidence.
The reason nobody looks at the evidence is because it's never been presented to them, all we see on TV and in the papers on the subject is fiction and unreliable memoirs which have been discredited time and time again.
The standard of "evidence" was always extremely poor and is actually getting worse as time goes on, the latest productions make a mockery even of the orthodox Holocaust narrative:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47rbRNSGQUs

You can make assertions about eugenics, claim it's a pseudo science but there's a lot more physical evidence proving the claims of eugencicists than there is for a "Holocaust".

Jay: the 1940's has called; the Nazi's want their spokesperson back.

You are a complete lunatic if you don't believe the holocaust happened and that you can prove that it didn't.

If it is that you're anti-Jew (of which there seems to be more than a few here) and a blinded by your bigotry then trying telling the gypsies or the homosexuals or any of the other minorities that the article mentions that the holocaust didn't happen.

The Holocaust is an historical fact-- one can even personally visit the remains of death camps today to see the evidence with their own eyes. There is more physical evidence that it happened than that Captain Cook landed at Botany Bay.
Again, the Holocaust is an historical fact!

The holocaust is a constant reminder to all of us what can happen if we follow the thoughts and actions of madmen like Hitler and his Nazi followers.

Holocaust deniers are the lowest of the low, and serve no purpose other than to fan the flames of racism and anti-semitism.

We would do well to heed the lessons learnt after one of the worst acts of genocide in human history was committed by the Germans, and not repeat this disgusting part of human history again.

I doubt whether there is any point responding to Jay of Melbourne and the so-called lack of evidence for the Holocaust. Perhaps I should safely leave that to representatives of the German government, which accepts the sane historical view of the millions killed, and to the survivors of the death camps, who can be forgiven for feeling so outraged by the nonsense in this comment that they cannot bear to reply.

However I shall dip my toe in with a small offering. I could personally present to him/her (a) my family tree, with the names of those relatives who died during WW2 and the approximate dates of their deaths in concentration camps, at the hands of the Nazis, and (b) the letter my mother received in 1946 from a former neighbour in Vienna, not Jewish, who described in sad detail the fates of various Jewish neighbours who were rounded up by the Nazis never to be seen again.

Is Jay of Melbourne citing evidence that most of these victims were sent back home? What utter tripe

I have to wonder at what purpose might be served by seeking to prove that the holocaust didn't occur, whatever you might see as the reality of that statement Jay.

It is now several generations ago and it has become a powerful symbol of the danger of absolutism as well as a salutary lesson of the ways in which a human system without negative feedback mechanisms can run out of control to destruction, a lesson that has had to be relearnt several times throughout history.

I realise you're wont to think of yourself as a seeker of truth, but perhaps you need to consider the implications of feedback for your own thinking processes?

I am reminded of what General Eisenhower said when confronted by the concentration camps during liberation - “Get it all on record now – get the films – get the witnesses – because somewhere down the track of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened.”

I also remember clearly as a boy the horror of those initial Pathé news reels of the bodies piled high and being moved by a bull- dozer. Something I shall never forget.

Of course the Holocaust happened. There may be a small amount of dispute as to the actual number of people killed, but 6 million seems a reasonable approximation. The only problem I have with the Holocaust is that people think it was unique, and must never be repeated. We must remember that Stalin killed far more people that Hitler, although Hitler had far less time to kill than Stalin had. Mao, of course exceeded both these monsters, killing something over 50 million, according to some estimates. In more recent times we had Pol Pot, who knocked off millions in Cambodia, and the genocide in Rwanda added a fair few to the overall toll. Whether you were labelled a class enemy under Mao or a race enemy under Adolf didn't make much difference, you were still dead. I don't think eugenics was really relevant, it was just a label in the same way that religious labels are given to wars and exterminations, both now and in the past.

So what conclusions can we draw from all this? I think the first is that we live in a brutal violent Hobbesean world, and that human morality has not advanced one iota from the heyday of Auchwitz.

The second is that over-population is a key trigger to these events, and the failure to do anything about it ensures that these events will be repeated.

We are living through a century that will see billions die in conflicts, as modern technology enables extremists of all shades to exceed the horrors of the past.

Jay of Melbourne, it did happen, I was around in that era, newsreels reported regularly of the extermination camps and the killing going on there, it is fact not fiction.
Most wars are caused by Governments and back to WW1 by Royalty connections of all persuasions and cruelty or killing being ignored by them, but actually happens, if we take an example of dictatorship, Abbott confers a title with no consultation, except for two war military men, imagine what horrors could eventuate with a dictatorship attitude regarding war, Hitler, Tojo, Bush and others create killing fields but rarely ever get in the front line to be shot, exterminate or kill ordinary citizens,that being their motto.

Jay's comment refers to various fields of investigative research that challenge the official narrative of the Holocaust. This research - or at least what I've read of it - does not deny the Holocaust ever happened.

The research falls largely into two areas - 1. analysing the validity of the official 6 million figure and 2. challenging what is perceived to be the exploitation of Holocaust remembrance for political purposes.

More and more countries are coming under pressure to join the 14 countries that have made Holocaust 'denial' a criminal offence (including 'Je suis Charlie' France), and to extend the crime of Holocaust 'denial' to the Rwandan genocide and the Srebrenica massacre. (However, it's fine to deny the WWI Armenian genocide, or refuse to recognise the bureaucratic exterminations of indigenous peoples as genocide or ignore the extensive use of concentration camps by the US and European powers in their own history.)

To me, this selective criminalisation of an activity that would be deemed free speech or simple research in any other context is one of the most worrying political trends of recent years. Ironically, it's flirting dangerously with the very totalitarian thinking that gave rise to the Holocaust in the first place.

If remembrance for the victims of Auschwitz is the issue here, then throwing people in prison for questioning the Auschwitz narrative is not the way to go.

Thanks Killarney,
Nobody denies that the Nazis had racial policies, that people were sent to camps, that people died or that people were murdered.
The very fact that the evidence purporting to support the idea of a Holocaust is held as incontrovertible or held to be beyond interpretation should be a red flag to any intelligent person, if something cannot be challenged it's usually dogma, not fact.

Beyond that the thing which inflames the senses of an intelligent person with an inquiring mind is the evidence itself, or at least the information which has been presented as evidence. To read the mainstream Holocaust narrative is to have your intelligence insulted over and over again because very little of it makes any sense, yet reading the actual available, verifiable first source material a picture of the war and life in the camps emerges which doesn't strain credulity, defy the laws of physics or reduce the reader to gales of laughter at it's childishness and blatant bias.
I can accept the information which leads me to conclude that upwards of 270,000 people died in German custody during the war, that many of them were Jews and that as many as 170,000 more people may have been murdered in the field.
So how is acceptance of a plausible figure backed by at least some evidence which fits with the world as we know it disrespectful while acceptance of figures of six million (or 12, or 20 or even 25) based on hearsay and the testimony of proven liars and victims of brutal torture somehow socially acceptable?
Like most people who grew up in politically Left leaning families I was raised to distrust and disparage liars and value sincerity, diligence and competence, it's just that I chose to maintain those principles into adulthood rather than become an uncritical and accepting, "go along to get along" type of person

Jay (and Killarney), with respect your posts are begging the question.

Does it matter what the "facts" are in the context of our shared reality?

For example, would you bother to worry about the claim that the Babylonians use of base 60 underlies our own model for time-keeping and was critical to geometry until Cotes defined the radian, which is a much more useful concept, being based on intrinsic rather than extrinsic properties (ratios)? After all, apart from the coincidence of the Babylonians preference for sexagesimal numbers, there's nothing to link their world to ours...

So what is my point? It's not that hard, really: consider what the consequence of your choice might be in the context of the currently-obtaining social condition. Adherence to 1970s feminism is no more likely to be a worthwhile contribution to an early 21st century discussion than mid-20th century fascist racism, regardless of what adherents to either ideology might prefer.

Adapt, people; think like a bacterium.

Jay of Melbourne is an antisemite born and bred.

Anyone who can deny that some 12 million people were slaughtered by the Nazi killing machine has major issue that need to be dealt with.

On looker's if you hadn't come to the conclusion that Jay is a troll then his/her/it's recent post above should put you straight.

If anyone is interested in a "Concentration Camp" that was really a POW camp(of the worst kind), just look up 'Andersonville'.

Strangely enough the Commandant there was a German.

Since the 1960s, people have travelled much more than previously. Unfortunately, this does not seem to have had the effect of increasing awareness and understanding of other cultures. In fact, what often happens is that people from affluent countries visit less developed countries and the local people become objectified into a kind of tourist attraction. People return from holidays with photographs of 'the poor being fed', 'the children in the orphanage', 'the local people bathing in the filthy Ganges' etc. Tour companies actually arrange 'orphanage tours' so that tourists can take photographs of children there and then go back to their comfortable Western countries and rave about how "cute" they are. It's all extremely distasteful and is not fostering empathy or understanding at all in my view.

Cobber,
An internet Troll is someone who injects deliberately controversial or off topic material into online discussions to get a rise out of people, I've not responded to the two pages of insults so far tendered as rebuttal of my position.
Do you think it's right that people should regard as unfalsifiable the testimony of proven liars and Nazi confessions obtained via torture?
There's an extensive and in depth discussion on this thread where I've provided numerous links but I notice that only two people have weighed in with a contrary position to my own:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6714&page=27

Craig Minns,
Well,indeed.
How are we as 21st century men served by by a dogmatic position on WW2 which is founded on hearsay and confessions obtained by torture?
Holocaust dogma appears in almost every thread on this forum, Holocaust affirmation is also a form of social status signalling and as we can clearly see in this thread, it's used as the basis of in group-out group discrimination.
I'm not even going to try and argue the other dimensions of Holocaust affirmation such as it's role in justifying U.S foreign policy or the relationship between anti racism and capitalist imperialism.

My mind isn't made up on the issue, there's reliable information that the Russians know where the bodies are buried so to speak but Putin closed their archives to outsiders in the late 1990's and since he's intent on cosying up to the Germans I don't think there's any possibility of new information coming to light any time soon.

This U.S Army War College lecture by COL David M. Glantz puts the Soviet-German war in perspective:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg

It’s a shame this thread has been hijacked by the vile lie of holocaust denial.

Mal’s article raises a couple of interesting points: that the racial theories than underpinned the holocaust were relatively respectable before WW2; and that in milder forms they still are. The comparison with Peter Singer’s utilitarian philosophy springs to mind, a less brutal but similarly graded hierarchy of “life worthy of life”.

JoM,

Your assertion, that " ..... if something cannot be challenged it's usually dogma, not fact", misses the possibility that if something cannot be challenged, it may well be fact. I suppose your task is to explain to yourself where twelve million (not six million) Jews went. Uganda ?

My step-grandfather lost at least seventy of his relatives, siblings, cousins, nieces and nephews, that he could name. After the War, three were left: he'd got his mother out in the early thirties, he had a cousin left in Rumania and a brother who had been fighting with Tito in Bosnia. I'm sure many contributors to OLO could tell you similar stories. Get over it, it happened.

Craig, you're an idiot. Are you in this world at all ?

Joe

Thanks for that Joe, coming from you that's a great compliment.

Rhian, whenever something becomes a social norm it is inevitable that some anti-norm will arise to challenge it. That's human nature and it is a Good Thing, because it is what allows us to change. However, it is also inevitable that it will lead to discomfort in those who are most uncomfortable with challenging ideas, as the Loudmouthed Joe demonstrates so ...erm...ably...

Jay, I think you're simply barking up the wrong tree.

Craig

I don’t think I’m closed to new ideas or paradigm challenges, just annoyed by blatant falsehoods driven by malign ideology. Whether or not the holocaust happened is not a question of interpretation or opinion; or even, as its more slippery deniers insinuate, a matter of degree or overstatement.

How about we debate the content of the article, rather than JOM’s malodorous red herring?

Hi Rhian,

Of course, JoM's position raises issues of freedom of expression. I unreservedly support his/her right to the expression of their vile opinions, since what would be the point of his/her thinking and believing rubbish without the chance to express it, and to let the world know what sort of misconceptions are still out there ?

It would be interesting to know how many bigots like JoM have ever been actually physically attacked for such opinions, versus how many people - even in this past month - have been attacked, killed, beheaded or stoned for expressing opinions which criticise neo-fascist ideology cloaked as religion.

Craig, you're welcome any time to come down from your molehill-mountain and join us :)

Joe

Hi Joe

I agree, but JoM has successfully diverted almost every poster here from addressing the actual content of the article (me included!).

I suppose JoM is indirectly demonstrating the validity of Mal’s hypothesis that the poisonous ideas that gave rise to the holocaust have not disappeared, but can and do resurface.

Rhian,
So "Holocaust Denial" gave rise to 'The Holocaust", that's an interesting position.
Joe,
People claim a connection to the Holocaust for all sorts of reasons, financial motives are often foremost in people's minds:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070592/Germany-agrees-pay-pensions-thousands-Holocaust-victims.html
Former Holocaust Claims Conference Director Sentenced to Eight Years in Prison for $57.3 Million Fraud on Organization That Makes Reparations to Victims of Nazi Persecution
http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2013/former-holocaust-claims-conference-director-sentenced-to-eight-years-in-prison-for-57.3-million-fraud-on-organization-that-makes-reparations-to-victims-of-nazi-persecution
The way that fraud ring operated was to doctor identity documents to show Holocaust connections and make bogus claims for the standard $3500 compensation payment, what's $57 million divided by $3500, about 16 thousand.

The problem with the Holocaust narrative is that the evidence as it stands is so hopelessly tainted by fraud, financial corruption, allegations of torture and false confessions that even if some claims are true they are swamped by the overwhelming number of dishonest "witnesses" and claimants. Few "survivors" seem to be able to get their stories straight and the death toll keeps growing and growing in media reports and being revised downwards and downwards by Holocaust scholars at the same time.
Professor Raul Hilberg, the acknowledged foremost authority on the orthodox Holocaust narrative put the death toll at 5.1 million, why is it now,only eight years after his death said to be 12 million?

By the way even the definition of a Holocaust survivor is also a topic of debate;
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/who-counts-as-a-holocaust-survivor-1.119868
"Both demographers relied on the same standard in terms of defining a Holocaust survivor: Any Jew who lived for any period of time in a country that was ruled by the Nazis or their allies is called a Holocaust survivor (by DellaPergola) or a Nazi victim (by Ukeles)"

"The two researchers reached radically different conclusions. On Ukeles' count, there are 687,900 Holocaust survivors in the world today. DellaPergola's estimate is much larger: 1,092,000 survivors."

Rhian

‘Mal’s article raises a couple of interesting points: that the racial theories than underpinned the holocaust were relatively respectable before WW2 …’

Yes, they were indeed. However, I view the author’s premise that the Holocaust was one giant eugenics experiment as just another version of what you call ‘blatant falsehoods driven by malign ideology’.

Mass exterminations and massacres are primarily driven by economic and imperial motives and almost always take place within the context of war and imperial conquest. The constant portrayal of genocides and large massacres as some kind of occult event that comes out of nowhere and is driven purely by ethnic and racial tensions, while deliberately ignoring the economic and imperial wars in which they occur, is in my view no better or worse than questioning the official Holocaust narrative.

‘and that in milder forms they still are …’

Yes. Only today, racial and ethnic purity theories have morphed into contemporary ‘respectable’ equivalents, e.g. the war on terror, the portrayal of Islam as an ‘inherently violent religion’, humanitarian bombings (R2P) and drone assassinations on dark-skinned populations, social-Darwinian notions of ‘intergenerational welfare’ and ‘lifters and leaners’, and as Louisa pointed out, the dark side of Third World tourism by affluent First Worlders

Got to love the melodramatic heartfelt compassion for those who suffered way before most of us were born and the complete self conceited contempt for our very real complicity in the self same outrages conducted in our name in Iraq and many other places around the world since.

Got to love it

Yebiga,
Yes and the Holocaust narrative is a frequently used talking point in those machinations:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408405/Assad-joined-Hitler-Hussein-John-Kerry-says-Syrian-president-used-deadly-sarin-nerve-gas-Damascus-attack.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/22/prince-charles-putin-hitler-outrageous-russia
Rhian, for you:
Is There a New Anti-Semitism?
A Conversation with Raul Hilberg
http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_6.1-2/hilberg.htm

Professor Hilberg was an honest man, he declared that it was the responsibility of Holocaust historians to find answers to the questions posed by revisionists and where he was unable to provide answers he admitted as much:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/Giant/Chapter9.pdf
This is the world's foremost expert on the Holocaust being cross examined under oath in a court of law and true to form he maintains his integrity and answers honestly.

I can recall seeing a mini series documentary (the world at war) on the second world war, and told from the perspective of returned soldiers; theirs and ours.

Among the reveries, was strong assertions that as many as two thirds of allied soldiers fired high?

That is until they saw the death camps and liberated the living skeletons that remained.
Which made the war into a righteous one for many of the allies!

And those reminiscences were accompanied by old news reels, where corpses were piled high or bulldozed into open trenches; and something of a body count, based on transport numbers minus the survivors.

The Germans were nothing if not very efficient with their record keeping, which according to the doco, seems to substantiate a 6 million figure?

Why they were the source of many of the black and white films that were used later as almost irrefutable evidence at Nuremberg; which forever ended the so called Nuremberg defense of, I was only following orders!

And not all the Jews were blameless, but took part in many of the very worst atrocities as camp policemen, according to some survivor recollections?
Many of who would have preferred death as opposed to unspeakable experiences/atrocities/war crimes/human rights violations!

And as others have raised; there were worse atrocities committed elsewhere, just to suit a political end or keep a madman in power!

Nor does the holocaust give modern day Jews carte blanche to act like the Nazi SS, in dealing with the "Palestine problem"!

Two wrongs never have and never ever will make one right!
Rhrosty.

True Yebiga, killing is killing, but isn't it always which side of the fence you are sitting on, the goodies or the baddies, anything to do with America, goodies, anything to do with Russia, baddies, but then in a few decades perhaps Russia will be a goodie just like Japan is now, one remembers when it was a baddie like Germany, My how things can change, keeps us jumping from side to side of the fence.

Jay

I think holocaust denial is linked to the mindset that produced the holocaust. The Nazis took pains to conceal what they were doing; euphemisms like “special treatment” and “final solution” allowed them to conceal its real import even from each other. Holocaust revisionists seek to deny or downplay the extent of the holocaust or to denigrate its victims. To claim that Jews are responsible for the holocaust, and not much happened anyway, is racially-motivated doublethink.

The linked article is interesting, and I agree with most of the points Hilberg makes. As an historical event, the holocaust should be investigated with rigour and respect for evidence that historiography demands. The point that survivors’ accounts cannot tell us what the non-survivors experienced is hardly new, however: it is a major thesis of Auschwitz survivor Primo Levi’s book “The Drowned and the Saved”. Hilberg certainly does not deny that genocide occurred, or claim that Treblinka was not a death camp, like the loopy video you linked to. If modern-day violence and prejudice against Jews is different from the anti-Semitism of the past, that doesn’t make it any less real.

Killarney

I agree that genocide does not occur for no reason, but isn’t it a bit simplistic to trace it entirely to economics or imperialism? Though the Nazis stole property from the Jews and used them as slave labour, the holocaust was expensive in terms of resources, manpower and the logistics of moving millions of people around, which hindered the war effort. Hatred of the “other” has its own dynamics, which Mal’s article seeks to explore.

I agree that hatred of “the other” is increasingly manifest in the West as hatred of Muslims. But I disagree with the kind of relativism or moral equivalence that says that the Jews’ experience in WW2 was no different to the Palestinians today; or that subsequent genocides such as Rwanda diminish the significance of the holocaust.

So rhian you believe the Jewish holocaust is the premier league and Rwanda is second division?

Yebiga

No, beyond a certain point I don't think there is a calculus capable of making that kind of judgement.

But I don't think other genocides mean that the holocaust was nothing special.

Rhian,
Raul Hilberg, the world's foremost holocaust scholar stated that his body of work was an examination of the minutiae of the final solution in order to form a gestalt, a general shape or a picture of events from 41-45.
When he appeared at the Zundel trial in the 1980's he was cross examined by defence counsel Douglas Christie and admitted that no evidence of homicidal gas chambers has been found.
Hilberg also had to admit that all the information concerning homicidal "death camps" came from Soviet sources, that no war crimes investigator from the Western allies had ever visited any of the alleged "death camps" and later revealed that he himself only ever visited Auschwitz once, for a few hours to attend a ceremonial function.
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/Giant/Chapter9.pdf

"I don't usually have to define simple words", said Christie, "but by scientific report I mean a report conducted by anyone who purported to be a scientist and who examined physical evidence. Name one report of such a kind that showed the existence of gas chambers anywhere in Nazi-occupied territory".
"I still dont quite understand the import of your question", said Hilberg. Are you referring to a German, or a post-war...?"
"I dont care who, German, post-war, Allied, Soviet,any source at
all. Name one", said Christie.
"To prove what?" asked Hilberg.
"To conclude that they have physically seen a gas chamber. One scientific report", repeated Christie.
"I am really at a loss. I am very seldom at such a loss, but ...
[...]
Judge Locke interrupted: "Doctor ... do you know of such a report?"
"No", replied Hilberg

Part 1

Mal Fletcher's article is a criticism of eugenics, an opinion I oppose.

The first thing to consider, is that an unknown proportion of people in every community suffer from what psychologists call "absolutist personalities." These are people to who any moral issue can only be black and white, there can be no "fifty shades of grey." Moral priorities and moral quandaries make no sense to them at all. Such people not only embrace moral issues with absolute conviction, they consider it only logical to take every moral issue or cause to it's absolute extreme.

The second thing to consider, is that any morally worthwhile cause can be taken to it's extreme. Everyone today is a greenie, to one degree or another. But some environmentalists can only perceive a world where everyone on planet earth is some sort of Amish living on a 5 acre farm, and they see nothing wrong with destroying their own advanced economies to achieve that perfect state. People wishing to eat good food can morph into vegetarians, and then into Vegans, who are known to produce a phenomenon called "Middle Class Malnutrition". This is a condition where inner urban children from cashed up middle class families begin to exhibit signs of acute malnutrition. Some exercise fanatics exercise themselves to death. Super fit triathlete competitors are known to drop dead in the middle of gruelling sporting events. Religions are full of people with "absolutist personalities", and so are social and political movements.

Eugenics is a noble principle that can be both taken to the extreme by people with absolutist personalities such as Adolph Hitler, who considered the improvement of race by any means to be perfectly logical moral ideal. Or it can be attacked as absolutely evil by people like Mal Fletcher, who probably also has an absolutist personality. People like Mal think that eugenics automatically means the genetic eradication of undesirables through gas chambers, because as a probable absolutist, he is programmed through his personality to only judge issues by considering it perfectly normal to take every issue to the extreme.

To be continued.

Part 2

All humans engage in eugenics to one degree or another. Males seek high quality young breeding stock females with shiny hair and stunning figures. Women seek men of intelligence with the proven ability (or at least the potential) to provide for her and her offspring. Women's magazines are full of stories about young bimbos stealing the alpha male husband of some aging middle class woman. Physical beauty is a ticket to the upper classes for any beautiful young, lower class woman. This has resulted in the renowned good looks of the upper classes and their description as "the beautiful people."

But eugenics can work both ways. In advanced societies today, the problem is that the lower, least intelligent people, the ones who fill our hospitals, jails and welfare queues, are breeding at a much faster rate than our most intelligent, who are generally the providers of wealth. Intelligent female women are hardly breeding at all. Extrapolate forward and we see a vision of Greece or Detroit unless we find a way to encourage intelligent people to breed, and discourage people with low intelligence to breed. Any person who refuses to see this self evident reality probably comes from the shallow end of the gene pool.

Lego,
It's just the self righteous, priggish tone adopted by gentile Holocaust affirmers and young Jews who've never experienced persecution which grinds my gears. Elderly Jews who did experience tragedy in the 1940's are deserving of sympathy, their great grandchildren are not and just need to get over it.
Lacking any basis in fact the Holocaust is really only an allegorical argument against discrimination yet the people who use it to make their point invariably do so to discriminate against and demonise people they don't like.
If Mal Fletcher was serious about raising his humanitarian concerns he wouldn't invoke the Holocaust because it's a cop out, a sleazy tactic used by ignorant and lazy people.

I agree, Jay of Melbourne.

One of the reasons why I stopped being an anti racist and became a racist, was the hypocrisy of the Jews. It seemed to me that at the instigation of the concept of multiculturalism, it was the Jews in Australia who were the main advocates. But this did not stop them from supporting Israel which was unashamedly a Jewish state, created entirely for Jews.

It seems like the Jews believe in multiculturalism for everybody else, but not in Israel. I think this is the primary reason why the Left hate the Jews. If anybody should be absolutist advocates for the Lefts favourite cause of multiculturalism, it should be the Jews. But Jews don't want it in Israel. Not that this is a surprise, the Muslims don't want it either. But they get a free pass. That the Jews are not creating a multicultural utopia in Israel/Palestine upsets the Lefties no end. Although how such a feat could be possible the Left does not want to think about.

Ironically, the Jews seem to be the one race which have benefitted the most from Eugenics. The secular Jews are reputed to be the smartest people on Earth and their list of Nobel prizes for science validates that premise. Whenever there was a anti Jewish pogrom anywhere, the smartest and richest Jews (like the Rothchilds) fled or bought their way out, before the mass murders began. The dumb ones got genetically eradicated.

This seems to be confirmed by am book I read, "The Nazi Officer's Wife", in which a Jewish girl in Austria studying law became so concerned about the Nazi's prior to WW2, that she went underground, got a new identity, married a German officer, and survived the war. She could not understand why so many Jews were too dumb to see what was happening and extrapolate forward to see that the time to get out was now. I think it is a bit like those who can't see any problem with Muslims. Wishful thinking trumps a reality which they don't want to think about.

Hi LEGO,

So ..... neither Jews nor Muslims, as you lump them both, want multiculturalism ?

Israel's population is 20 % Arab, but are you suggesting they have fewer rights than Jews in Israel ? Perhaps you can give examples of this. My understanding is that, not only don't Arabs have to pay a 'dhimmi' tax, but that they are not required to serve in the armed forces either. There are mosques in Israel. There is an equitable education system in Israel, for both Jews and ArabsHave I got all that right ?

As for Jews in Muslim countries, we all have a fair idea of what rights they have, and have not, those who have remained.

Those facts tend to blow your notions apart :)

Joe

LEGO,

The developer of the birth control pill, Carl Djerassi, has just died at 91. I'm sure that, since he was a Jew, you could find some angle against him for his work: perhaps you could slip something in about eugenics. Or something.

Joe

Israel is not a Jewish only State.

"....Ismail Khaldi is the first Bedouin vice consul of Israel and the highest ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service. Khaldi is a strong advocate of Israel. While acknowledging that the Israeli Bedouin minority is not ideal, he said:

I am a proud Israeli – along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deals honestly. By any yardstick you choose—educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation—Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Bedouin#Crime

Jay
You are reporting selectively. The fuller quote was:

“I am really at a loss. I am very seldom at such a loss, but ... Again, I can only state that there have been aerial photographs that were analysed. Perhaps that is not in your definition of science. There have been contemporaneous documents about the lethality of the gas that was employed. Perhaps this is not important to you. There are documents …”

Reading the transcript it is quite clear that Hilberg did not concede there was no evidence for gas chambers, and described detailed evidence including numerous eyewitness accounts. Let people read a less selective account for themselves:
http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/09hilberg.html

Rhian,
That type of reasoning is typical of Hilberg, he's happy to use the testimony of a liar like Jankel Wiernik or a loquacious lunatic like Kurt Gerstein if it adds something to his gestalt, they don't actually have to tell the truth, just add to the shape of the Holocaust.
Gerstein claimed that 25 million people were murdered at Treblinka and that he'd seen piles of clothes ten stories high in the yard, Hilberg knew he was insane but made an important deduction from his evidence, namely that the numbers of Jews weren't counted at Treblinka.
See the kind of thinking involved?
The Holocaust appeared in popular culture from the 1960's for political reasons we don't need to get into here and it should have gone out of fashion by the 1990's after the revisionists caused more than reasonable doubt about it's veracity, the reparations scandals and the exposure of widespread fraud.
What happened though was that a new generation of Zionist Jews with new political considerations in mind, like Steven Spielberg and Abraham Foxman simply doubled down on the rhetoric to push their agenda.
Tony Judt left us this interpretation of the significance of the Holocaust:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTc6LBtWEg0

Holocaust Remembrance: What's Behind the Campaign?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=db7_1230641059

Snake & Craig Minns of the older generation, we know what went on, we were around at that time, the horrors inflicted by the Germans and Japanese was horrendous, one still finds it difficult to be comfortable in the presence of Japanese. Jay we will all die out eventually, then it will become harder for future generations to reconcile to what went on in WW2, fact or fiction will become blurred as to the truth, one understands that, but we the living now do know the German concentration camps and gas chambers existed and used to exterminate people that Hitler saw as no use to his perfect race of Germans he wanted to create.

Lego,
The Left have never forgiven Israel for siding with the West in the cold war and we have to remember that much of the same personnel, the same theorists have dominated the Left since the 1970's.
Mal Fletcher makes dishonest usage of the Holocaust, regardless of whether you accept the narrative as a whole or reject it this type of article should raise the hackles of any intelligent person.
How long are the Leftists and Humanists going to fight the same battles?
There's a White Nationalist blogger from the states named Tim Murdock, he says that WW2 still isn't over, that we don't yet have a clear picture of how the civil war between National and International Socialists was resolved.

LEGO

What do you make of Christopher Lasch’s concept of ‘associative coupling’?

This describes the process whereby male lawyers now marry female lawyers, not legal secretaries; male doctors marry female doctors, not nurses … and so on.

Pre-second wave feminism, secretaries aspired to marry their bosses, nurses aspired to marry doctors, legal secretaries to marry lawyers. One of the main reasons young women went to university was to catch a professional man for a husband.

Post-second wave feminism, lower class women can no longer use marriage as a ticket to the ‘upper’ classes. What this means is that women use education and professional qualifications as their ticket to the ‘upper’ classes, not marriage. Also, if their marriages fail, they have (in theory) heaps of financial security to fall back on. Marriage is no longer a socio-economic prison that women can’t escape from if it all turns nasty or boring – as it was in their grandmothers’ time.

Now that all the upwardly mobile intelligent women are becoming educated and qualified in their own right, all that is left to eugenically oriented men (especially as they get old and ugly and dumped by professionally qualified wives for greener pastures) is to marry lower class bimbos.

Darn … that puts your whole evolutionary eugenic theory into reverse!

Instead of men raising the quality of the gene pool by marrying pretty, silicone-enhanced bleach-blonds from the lower classes, they are actually ensuring a race to the bottom of the IQ gene pool.

Oh, well ... back to the drawing board.

Rhian

‘Though the Nazis stole property from the Jews and used them as slave labour, the holocaust was expensive in terms of resources, manpower and the logistics of moving millions of people around, which hindered the war effort.’

Yes, it would have been VERY expensive. However, an almost unknown fact of the so-called Final Solution is that the construction of the concentration camps and death camps were actually 'privatised' to German corporations.

Here is one link that explains the process. Make of it what you will:

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-8bdb-Not-just-concentration-camps-but-capitalist-factories-too#.VM4nuyGvly1

The main overriding issue that drove the so-called Final Solution was that (as it was believed) Jewish financiers and bankers controlled the German economy and, to a lesser extent, the entire global economy. The wealthy industrialists of Germany, many of them from old aristocratic ‘aryan’ families, felt that they were financially enslaved to the Jewish bankers and financiers.

Add to this the wealthy industrialists and aristocrats of England and the US, who felt they were grappling with the same ‘Jewish problem’ and financed the German industrialists (through the conduit of Friedrich Thyssen), who in turn financed the rise of the Nazi Party.

(As an aside … it astounds me that mainstream accounts of the rise of Nazism never consider how on earth the Nazi Party was able to finance all their outrageously expensive shenanigans prior to their electoral victory of 1933.)

This is just scratching the surface of the economic and imperial factors that led to the Holocaust. Incredibly, the Holocaust has now become the #1 validation for all kinds of contemporary sanctions, bombings and invasions - mainly against oil-rich Muslim nations - that the descendants of the Nazi financiers (e.g. the Bush dynasty) are now perpetrating.

I couldnt care less about the holocaust.

The term wasn't even coined until 1960s or 70s. The shakedown of European banks in the 90s was the last draw for me. Apparently some Jews lost money and houses during the war! Gee, who could have guessed? Of course this could only happen in the 90s because before then the millions of other people who lost everything might have popped their heads up and said, hello!! Anybody home?

By far the best book I have ever read on WW2 was Irvings Hitlers War. It is brilliant and was on the reading list at West Point until he moved on the investigate the actual evidence of the holocaust. Of course, Muslims wonder why it is legal to publish pictures of Mohammed with something up his ar5e but illegal to question the holocaust in France. It seems speech is only free for some people. Just ask Irving. From what I understand he was ruined financially by lawfare and even spent time in prison.

Did lots of people die in the 'holocaust'. Sure. Was it 6 million? There is simple no evidence to suggest it was anywhere near there. Honest historians will admit that 6 million is just a guess. If it hadnt been used for endless political and financial advantage I might even believe it.

But in the end the care factor is zero.

Israeli laws could have come straight out of Nüremburg. As soon as they got a country look how they behaved. Occupation for 60 years with no genuine effort at peace.

What a joke.

As for 'anti-semetism' today. Jews have been at the forefront of the multi-cultural bandwagon for decades. Now they experience anti-semetism! Big deal. We lost our country and have to live with muslim thugs and the religion of peace so so can they. Care factor = zero.

Hi Joe and Is Mise.

I am a supporter of Israel. But what I object to is Jews promoting multiculturalism in Australia and advocating non European immigration into Australia, but promoting Jewish cultural dominance in Israel and selective immigration into Israel. Jews have a "right" to immigrate to Israel, non Jews do not. I would doubt that any non Jew would even be allowed to immigrate to Israel, especially Muslims.

Israel is hardly a multicultural paradise. Whatever equal rights that the Muslims have with Jews, they do not have the right to walk around supermarkets carrying Uzis, or walk onto buses carrying weapons, like the Jews do. The reason the Israelis carry weapons in their own country is to protect themselves from the Muslims who consider the Jews to be enemy occupiers. Whatever Muslims are in government in Israel, they would either be considered traitors by the "Palestinians", or they would hold a position similar to the IRA members of the British parliament that were voted in by the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland. There may be Muslim soldiers fighting for Israel, but their numbers would be insignificant, and they would be considered traitors by the Muslims who call themselves "Palestinians", and who do not consider themselves "Israelis" at all.

Israel is a state set up by the Jews for the benefit of Jews, and it is ruled by Jews. It is a country where 80% of the people arm themselves to protect themselves from the other 20%. And the Jews in Australia wanted to impose this social ideal on Australia? Well, they got their wish. And after buggering up the social cohesion in Australia, they now have to put armed guards on Jewish schools in Australia to protect themselves from the 2.2% of the population in Australia who are Muslims. The Australians do not need to have armed guards in schools to protect their kids from Muslims yet. Although they do have guards in six NSW schools to protect the teachers and non Muslim students from the unacceptable behaviour of Muslim boys.

Killarney, that's not quite true the SS was the contractor for the Birkenau crematoria, several other companies were employed as sub contractors.
The Krema II and III buildings were built by the Huta Company.
The Krema IV and V buildings were built by Riedel.
Topf built the furnaces and ventilation systems for Kremas II and III and contracted out part of the furnace fabrication for IV and V to Kluge.
Koehler erected the chimneys.
Vedag waterproofed the mortuary cellars.
Three companies -- Kontinentale Wasserwerks-Gesellschaft, Falck, and Triton -- installed the drainage system.
Segnitz manufactured roofing materials which were installed by Industrie-Bau-A.G.
AEG did the electrical work for the furnace fans and the ventilation systems.

The crematoria were needed to cope with the large numbers of corpses which resulted from epidemics, executions and deaths from other causes.
Despite a lot of technical problems resulting in the apparatus being out of action for long periods of time the crematoria were working flat out disposing of the tens of thousands of bodies.
The facilities could theoretically cope with about 500 corpses a day but never ran at full capacity, some 32,000 people died in Auschwitz in 1942 alone. Spread out over a year that's do-able but we know there were epidemics in the summer which would have either caused a backlog of bodies or forced the SS to use other means of disposal, mass graves,open air pyres etc.
Inmates would have noticed a lot of activity at the crematoria through much of the year so it's understandable that they'd buy into the Soviet propaganda about gas chambers.

' I suppose your task is to explain to yourself where twelve million (not six million) Jews went. Uganda ? '

They went to Hollywood.

I don't know where JoM has actually denied the holocaust. He is skeptical of the scale, and unhappy with the sacred cow attitude to the topic. I'm inclined to agree really.

I have studied no history, but when people are so scared of even discussing or investigating a topic, even going so far as making it illegal to part from the party line I believe something's up.

I declare the death count to be 1,590,023.

The first casualty of war is consumer confidence.

Hi Killarney.

I haven't heard of Christopher Lasch’s concept of "associative coupling". But I have heard of Miranda Kerr and Erica Baxter, a couple of beautiful farm girls from Gunnedah who married "up".

Hollywood?

There's No Business Like Shoah Business!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPuMRpM4xtM

“There’s No Business Like Shoah Business” coined by Abba Eban (an Israeli diplomat and politician)

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/jul/14/historybooks.comment
http://www.jewishpost.com/archives/news/the-holocaust-industry.html

I'd never heard of this phrase until 2 nights ago when someone I was talking to mentioned it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oslo_Syndrome
“The book applies psychiatric insights to the Arab-Israel conflict by arguing that Israel's reaction to Arab hostility is a corollary of the Stockholm syndrome in which hostages come to identify and empathize with their captors.”

"This phenomenon reveals great similarity, at the level of human psychology, to the response of children subjected to chronic abuse. Such children tend to blame themselves for their suffering."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Levin
“Levin told an interviewer that he wrote The Oslo Syndrome to explain "why Israel's leaders, supported by the nation's academic and cultural elites and much of the broader population, were pursuing a course that was demonstrably placing the nation, including their own families, at dire risk."
“His thesis was on "Sigmund Freud's Early Studies of the Neuroses, 1886-1905."

http://www.oslosyndrome.com/

Cont....

Houllebecq, I don't like taboos because I'm an atheist.
I don't deny that the SS killed huge numbers of Jews, there's plenty of evidence that they did, I accept that tens of thousands of people died in Auschwitz, there's also plenty of evidence for that as well.
The people posting here who were youngsters when the Belsen film came out in the cinema were shocked by the sight of thousands of corpses and the horrifying condition of many of the inmates left alive after epidemics ravaged the camp. There's no reason not to assume that similar conditions prevailed in the other camps but the fact is that 60,000 people were found alive at Belsen alongside the 10,000 or so dead.

Jews were not the only victims of Hitler.

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/fivmil.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/NonJewishVictims.htmlhttp://

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

Constance,
Those links don't work but the number of non Jewish victims is also a bone of contention, the reason the official Auschwitz death toll was slashed from four million to one and a half was because the hysterical accusations made by Polish communists after the war were found to be untrue. I don't trust any information tendered by the Soviets either so the number of Russians murdered in the camps is unlikely to be as high as they claimed and it's suspected that the NKVD probably executed a high proportion of the liberated Red Army POW's.
We also often hear about Gypsies and Homosexuals being targeted for extermination but that's not true either, based on the available evidence only a few thousand died, mostly from the same suite of diseases and as a result of violence from the Kapos and other prisoners.
The usual sentence under paragraph 175 was five months and it was only really men who'd done something seriously wrong, molesting boys, prostitution/pandering etc who ended up in the concentration camps, that said homosexuals had a rough time in custody and it's clear that several thousand died. A mortality rate of 60% is not far fetched but Homosexuals who survived the first month usually survived their sentence.
The orders given by Himmler regarding the treatment of Roma and Sinti internees contradict the idea that they were rounded up for extermination:
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2014/volume_6/number_1/gypsy_holocaust.php
Gypsies are not known for their personal or communal hygeine in the outside world and one can only imagine the almost impossible task faced by Mengele and Hoess in keeping the Roma camp at Auschwitz clean and disease free.
Jews definitely were purposely murdered in large numbers by the SS because Jews were seen as enemies of Germany but it's debatable whether other groups can legitimately claim that they were targeted for the same reasons, racism, other prejudices or whatever.

Jay,
Your remark about 60,000 people being liberated from Belson reminds me of a quote I heard. I think it was either Finkelstein or Chomsky who said that there were so many 'survivors' putting their hands out for money that the Nazis couldn't have done such a good job.

What makes it all the more galling is that immediately after the war Jewish terrorists used violence to expel Palestinians from their land. It still goes on today.

I'm not exactly pro-muslim. I would stop all muslim immigration to the west tomorrow, but it is not hard to see muslim frustrations.

It is legal to insult their prophet but illegal to deny the holocaust.

Jews get money today for what happened 70 years ago by a long defunct regime yet Palestinians are regularly expelled from their houses today and receive nothing except a pogrom curtesy of the IDF every few years.

Dane,
If I recall the figures correctly the Germans claimed to have control over something like 4.1 million Jews in 1941 and reparation claims for around 4.3 million people have been made since the end of the war.
So of the 4.1 million Jews left in Europe in 1941 12 million were murdered while only 4.3 million survived.
What people don't realise is that the definitions of "Survivor" and "Victim" are extremely broad, a survivor is any Jew who lived for any period of time in the territory of the Third Reich or her allies and a victim is any Jew who died in those countries between 1933 and 1945.

Jay,

When, in 1941 ? Before or after the Nazis invaded Russia and Russian-controlled Poland ? As well as the Jews in non-Nazi-occupied Europe, in Rumania and Hungary ? So there's six million more Jews, just there.

Joe

Jay,

I don’t know why you’re denying the Non-Jewish victims of Hitler, including Christians and clergy? So Hitler’s invasion of Poland, a Catholic nation is irrelevant? Then followed by the Communists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Putin: Soviet Government Was Mostly Jewish 80-85 %
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu-GTj4slWw

Dane,

The whole crazy thing is that Muslims and Jews are all Semites, like cousins.

…..Cont.

I’ve never had anything against Jews but in the face of today’s extreme problems, I’m finding the more I dig, the more dirt I find. It followed on from looking into the relevance of the phenomena of Stockholm Syndrome, as to what is occurring in Sweden which now has the 2nd highest rape record in the world. Previously a low crime country.

Hell, I have cousins who are of half Jewish descent. But as always, its not about the people themselves but the ELITES. And this is the first time of heard of their oral bible, the TALMUD. So what do the Rabbis actually preach?

The Coverup of Zionist Organized Crime!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3GMDcFOq0g
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyer_Lansky

http://tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/137476/slave-trade-black-muslim
Jews & Arab's were united in African Slave Trade.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjpEkxbrWO8

http://holywar.org/jewishtr/08slave.htm
"Rabbi [Morris] Raphall delivered a sermon entitled 'The Bible View
of Slavery.' Raphall attempted to prove 'that according to the Talmud
there is no difference between a lost ox, donkey, or slave, and that
the TALMUD recommends turning over a fugitive slave to its master.
The discourse of Rabbi Raphall which appeared in print caused a
public stir. It was reprinted many times in the pro-slavery press.
It produced a sensational effect coming from a popular rabbi who
had the reputation of being a biblical scholar ... Raphall was right
in his Biblical exegesis." [ROSENTHAL, J., 78]”

http://forward.com/articles/179441/jews-mostly-supported-slavery-or-kept-silent-d/?p=all

Black people talk about Jews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QbjELF-8kY

A Rothschild Speaks - Listen Closely
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3EUzV5_TUs

World War I /Destruction of German economy&culture /Communism/Muslims in China/Khazars
Zionist Jew converts to Catholicism and exposes Jewish Conspiracy
(The Jews control Freemasonary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEDPOPr7qiY

What The Jews Did To Germany now in the USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw2FhXZ9tiw

Benjamin Freedman's 1961 - Warns America About The Jews
(Zionest deals & Palestine intention)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY90MSkQtrE

Cont....

I suspect that the great majority of Jewish people don't take much notice of the Talmud, Constance; a bit like Christians and bibles, perhaps more so.

And it's definitely a written document: why do you think it's just oral ? Ah, so that sneaky Jews can pass bits of it from one to another without others knowing ? Devilishly cunning.

I couldn't follow your logic: are you suggesting that Jews are to blame for any crime wave in Sweden ? Stealing babies, I've heard claims of, but that might take some substantiation. Good luck :)

Joe

Joe,

I’ve never heard of the Talmud until now and it was written somewhere that is communicated orally. I’m only getting started.

So it sounds like you know about the Talmud. Tell me more?

You are misreading what I have posted. Who said I was blaming the Jews on the high rape counts in Sweden? I said it was due to Muslim immigration. Crickey.

And the curious thing is that Muslims and Jews are Semites. Uh. Connect the dots.

Why are we for God’s sake constantly reminded of the atrocities of the Nazis when in truth it is pretty small (when counting victims) in comparison to how many were killed by the Communists, like 50 million. You have to ask why were most of their leaders Jewish? Would you have any explanation for this?

As Carl Marx was Jewish himself and you as an ex follower of Marxism, insider, you surely would have the goods on the workings of Marxism. Pray tell.

Are you Jewish?

For the record Constance I don't buy into the theory of a Jewish conspiracy, nor am I seeking to rehabilitate German National Socialism.
There have been a lot of lies told about WW2 and taboos imposed on discussion of the era, lies and taboos have no place in a discourse between rational people.
The SS contained an element of nihilistic revolutionaries, their mass murder of Jews served no purpose beyond it's stated goal of a final solution to the Jewish question and has no significance outside that era and no wider context.
Jews are still being targeted by nihilistic revolutionaries here's your clue as to "why":
"Theresa May, the British Home Secretary, condemned the hostility towards Jewish people as an attack on Britain as a whole."
http://www.theage.com.au/world/jewish-communities-seek-security-as-antisemitic-attacks-in-britain-hit-record-high-20150205-136nji.html

To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.
Marcus Tullius Cicero (Marcus Tullius Cicero, was a Roman philosopher, politician, lawyer, orator, political theorist, consul and constitutionalist.)

Jay,

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6585&page=0#198089
“Jay B,
What trouble are we in? In the 1920's Jewish led bolsheviks were running amok in Germany killing people left right and centre, not to mention what they were up to in the Soviet republics, anything Australia's Muslims have done pales into insignificance compared to the crimes committed by Bolshevik Jews in Europe in the 20th century.
You're even worse than the so called "bleeding hearts".
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 4 October 2014 12:27:46 PM”

And you have written other posts implying Jewish influence on society.

This is one of the reasons I find you very confusing. ? And then one minute, you say it is not the Muslims fault then another minute, “oh yes, it is the Muslims fault. ??

I know you’re a white nationalist, and so was Hitler.

I have never had anything against Jews and have never brought this subject matter up before. I’m only putting historical facts down as I find them which is making me question more. I really don’t like doing this at all but I have to be consistent. And the battle goes on.

I'm very aware that the attacks on Jews, both on individuals and even a Kindergarten in France have been committed by Muslims. And the Jews and other French are fleeing France. Afterall, it has close to a 10% population of Muslims there. Otherwise, before Muslims arrived in France, the Jews were living there peacefully. It is slowly becoming worse for them.

Disclosing Jewish Involvement African Slave Trade Dr Tony Martin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfdYe2Bg6no
(Implications of the so-called Enlightenment)
(The Babylonian Talmud again)

Jewish State:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
“During the 7th and 8th centuries, the Khazars fought a series of wars against the Umayyad Caliphate and its Abbasid successor.”

“Byzantine diplomatic policy towards the steppe peoples generally consisted of encouraging them to fight among themselves.”
“Abraham Harkavy [164] noted in 1877 that an Arabic commentary on Isaiah 48:14, variously ascribed to Saadia Gaon or to the Karaite scholar Benjamin Nahâwandî, interpreted "The Lord hath loved him" as a reference "to the Khazars, who will go and destroy Babel" (i.e., Babylonia), a name used to designate the country of the Arabs. This has been taken as an indication of hopes by Persian Jews that the Khazars might overthrow the caliphate.”

Palestine anyone? Otherwise, I had always supported Israel's right for defence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah
“ (Isaiah 8:3) The book of Isaiah, along with the book of Jeremiah, is distinctive in the Hebrew bible for its direct portrayal of the "wrath of the Lord" as presented, for example, in Isaiah 9:19 stating, "Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire.”

Catholic Newspaper uncovers Jewish Plot against the Church! (update)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBgD-WbZfJg

PROTESTants:
Father of Reformist, Protestant Reformist, John Calvin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Cauvin
“He became involved in financial embarrassment, and was excommunicated, perhaps on suspicion of heresy.” Wanted his son to become a lawyer instead of a priest, as more money.
http://one-evil.org/content/people_16c_calvin.html
http://semiticcontroversies.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/was-john-calvin-jewish.html
'We are the Fathers of all Revolutions, even of those which sometimes happen to turn against us. We are the supreme Masters of Peace and War. We can boast of being the Creators of the Reformation! Calvin was one of our children; he was of Jewish descent, and was entrusted by Jewish authority and encouraged with Jewish finance to draft his scheme in the reformation (which was to convince Christians it was alright to charge usury and other damnable heresies which are in violation of God’s Laws).' (2)

Two Popes also Jewish (dual faiths)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia#Jews_in_the_revolutionary_movement

Cont.....

Constance, I didn't mean to belittle you,yes it's all important information and everyone needs to know the absolute havoc this tiny group of people can wreak when left to their own devices.
Here's another blog you might be interested in:
http://age-of-treason.com/
The Semitic Controversies site I find problematic having had some online interaction with it's author, he's a shady character.

Hi Constance,

Sorry, connect what dots ? 'The Irish and the Russians are both Christians, connect the dots': does that make any sense whatever ?

Yes, totalitarianism of any sort is a death cult: with hindsight, Russia, China, Pol Pot's Kampuchea, Mengistu's Ethiopia, perhaps Vietnam, all have exterminated huge proportions of their populations who didn't fit in, who doubted, or who were the 'wrong type'. But this still doesn't lessen the enormity of the Holocaust, the attempted extermination of an entire ethnic group.

I'm not so sure about the leadership of those totalitarianisms: Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, Mangistu - none of them were Jewish. The only Jew I can think of involved would have been Trotsky, and he didn't end up too well. The Hungarian Bela Kun was also 'removed'. Even the Extermination Ministers under the CPSU, from Dzerzhinsky, through Yagoda, Yezhov, Vishinsky to Beria, none of them were Jewish as far as I know.

You mention slave-dealers: in his seminal book, Hugh Thomas recorded only two Jews involved in the slave trade, both around 1600 or so.

Move on, Constance, there's no real mileage in trying to 'connect the dots' between Jews and Evil. Instead, do a count of Jewish comedians, medical pioneers, musical stars, and get back to me :)

No, I'm not Jewish but my step-grandfather, the only grandfather I really knew out of four possibles, was, a Hungarian mathematician. My grandmother worked for the Samuels (ex-Lord Mayor, boss of Shell) in London and was always full of praise for them.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Sorry, I would prefer to listen to a black professor of history and some others than your guy.

Your family relations with Jews, hence your Marxism?

Sorry, Lenin was Jewish. And I have nothing against Jews, it is the puppet masters who I am questioning. Yes, I love Leonard Cohen, Seinfeld etc. But not relevant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin

And what did Stalin and the rest have in common? They were all Atheists, weren’t they? And what do Marxists, extreme Atheists and Communists all have in common? Their opposition to and hatred of religion, especially Christianity. As an Atheist and Ex-Marxist, are you bias?

“The Irish and the Russians are both Christians, connect the dots': does that make any sense whatever ?” Yes, sure does! Coming from your own bias as an Atheist who seems to like calling Christianity fluff. So tell us your own liking for the non fluff as an ex Marxist. Your belief in a one man ideology of relativity – is that it? What about your soul? You call it trivia when a hijab wearing Muslima complains about a Christian wearing a tiny cross because she finds it offensive? And the Dhimmi dummy managers support the Muslim. And where does that leave the poor Christian woman deemed to have no right in her own country of England? Do you have any compassion?

Yes, the significance of the Holocaust and what about Stalin’s murder of 60 million Russian people? Can’t they be considered an ethnic group? And the Irish, where about 40% of their population was annihilated by the English. Why are they both not considered victims of genocide or holocaust also?

And I’m learning that Judaism is in fact not even a religion, just like Islam. They both instead follow laws (like Sharia) instead. Stay tuned. The beard is the guise. Still waiting for your insights on Marxism and the Talmud. Curious how the Mullahs and Hassidic Rabbis all wear beards. I remember my father saying once, “I don’t trust men with beards”.

Cont....

...Cont

When coming across these revelations on Jews, I actually threw up a few times. Oh my God, what they did to Russia. A very sad history indeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_II_of_Russia
Greatest Russian reformer since Peter the Great assassinated by Jews (Russian Left Wing Terrorists) after 7 attempts. See Jewess, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Rysakov

And you know what the Russian royal family represented don’t you? The (Holy) family. And that is how any monarchy is highly symbolic in Christianity. Only recently realised this. Peter Vexatious might have lead me there.

Looks like they were probably also involved with the Kennedy assassinations. And what were the Kennedy's called - yes, America’s royal family. Just speculating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinas_Pranaitis
Disputations
Authority of Pope Gregory IX
In 1238 Donin went to Rome, presented himself before Pope Gregory IX, and denounced the Talmud. Thirty-five articles were drawn up, in which Donin stated his charges of virulent attacks on the Virginity of Mary and the divinity of Jesus.

The Pope was persuaded that the accusations were true and dispatched to the authorities of the Church, transcripts of the charges formulated by Donin, accompanied by an order to seize all copies of the Talmud and deposit them with the Dominicans and Franciscans. If an examination corroborated the charges of Donin, the scrolls were to be burned.

Authority of King Louis IX
This order was generally ignored, except in France, where the Jews were compelled under pain of death to surrender their Talmuds (March, 1240). Louis IX ordered four of the most distinguished rabbis of France -- Yechiel of Paris, Moses of Coucy, Judah of Melun, and Samuel ben Solomon of Château-Thierry—to answer Donin in a public debate. In vain, however, did the rabbis argue against the charges of blasphemy and immorality which were the main points of Donin's arraignment. The commission condemned the Talmud to be burned. In 1242, fire was set accordingly to twenty-four carriage loads (ten to twelve-thousand volumes) of written works.

Cont...

...Cont

Yes, Joe, you implied once that you weren't interested in history. And isn't that one of the ideas of Marxism - to reinvent and ignore the past. Sorry, I beg to differ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_IX_of_France
Louis IX was also a reformer and developed French royal justice, in which the king is the supreme judge to whom anyone is able to appeal to seek the amendment of a judgment. He banned trials by ordeal, tried to prevent private wars that were plaguing the country and introduced the presumption of innocence in criminal procedure. To enforce the correct application of this new legal system, Louis IX created provosts and bailiffs.

A devout Catholic, he is the only canonized king of France. Consequently, there are many places named after him.
Patron of arts and arbiter of Europe

In addition to Louis' legislation against Jews and usury, he expanded the scope of the Inquisition in France. The area most affected by this expansion was southern France where the Cathar heresy had been strongest. The rate of these confiscations reached its highest levels in the years before his first crusade, and slowed upon his return to France in 1254.

He is honoured as co-patron of the Third Order of St. Francis, which claims him as a member of the Order. Even in childhood, his compassion for the poor and suffering people had been obvious to all who knew him and when he became king, over a hundred poor people ate in his house on ordinary days. Often the king served these guests himself. Such acts of charity, coupled with Louis' devout religious practices, gave rise to the legend that he joined the Third Order of St. Francis. Though it is unlikely that Louis did join the order, his life and actions proclaimed him one of them in spirit.

Cont...

....Cont

During the so-called "golden century of Saint Louis", the kingdom of France was at its height in Europe, both politically and economically. Saint Louis was regarded as "primus inter pares", first among equals, among the kings and rulers of the continent. He commanded the largest army and ruled the largest and wealthiest kingdom, the European centre of arts and intellectual thought at the time. The foundations for the famous college of theology later known as the Sorbonne were laid in Paris about the year 1257. The prestige and respect felt in Europe for King Louis IX were due more to the attraction that his benevolent personality created rather than to military domination. For his contemporaries, he was the quintessential example of the Christian prince and embodied the whole of Christendom in his person. His reputation for saintliness and fairness was already well established while he was alive, and on many occasions he was chosen as an arbiter in quarrels among the rulers of Europe.

Hi Constance,

No, I've never said I'm not interested in history, quite the reverse, to the point of obsession :) I'm a follower of Popper's notions against historical inevitability (therefore I'm against Marx's notion of the reverse), and I'm currently working my way through Braudel's History of Civilizations, and an inspiring book by Marc Bloch (I'm reading it on the bus). They straddle the entire Middle Ages and up to the Enlightenment, and do it brilliantly. Where are the historians of yesteryear ?

I'm into processes and underlying forces, rather than events. So I find the times and innovations from Louis the Pouis to Saint Louis and the Renaissance are fascinating. If I had my time again, I would want to be a historian like those Annalistes :)

Joe

Constance it is a pity present day Royalis didn't copy Louis 1X in his work for the poor,, they are more interested in self appointed titles,or Abbott's, living off the taxpayer for their every whim to live in the life that they feel they should have.

Hi Joe,

You haven’t answered or acknowledged me only the bit on your interest in history. You’re not giving me the goods.

Do you really believe in freedom, Joe?

I want to highlight the Jewish influence in Freemasonry.

In some other of my recent posts on other threads, I have brought up The French and Mexican revolutions caused by the collaborations between Communists and Freemasons against the Catholic Church.

And funny, the same collaborators caused the Spanish Civil War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_(Spain)
Manuel Azaña was a Freemason.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Aza%C3%B1a

Do you see a pattern here, Joe? Do you care?

John Calvin, the Protestant reformer had Jewish heritage. He and his father had both been Ex-Communicated from the CC.

Indeed, they have caused much distress and havoc in this world. I would say more than anyone else.

I also would like to mention another Jew who I greatly admire, Theodore Dalrymple. He is the George Orwell of today, even a bit of Graeme Greene due to his extensive travel and insights. Theodore’s father was a Communist, so he knows how satanic Communism is. Even as an Atheist (normal atheist that is) he believes that the West must return to its old traditions and religion. Orwell said the same.

So, looks like what it all boils down to is the Jews do not like Catholics, hey? Or the Russian Orthodox Christians. They’d probably go for the Greeks as well, given the chance. Probably have. They just couldn’t settle for Jesus being the greatest social reformer of all time, could they?

But they’ve been at it for quite a while, hey?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_War

John F Kennedy wanted to break the power of the US Federal Reserve by introducing silver Dollars. The supreme managers of the Fed are all apparently all Jews. Fancy that. The famous footage of the assassination was filmed by a Jew called Zapruder. Coincidence. There is also a Masonic symbol on the US dollar with the pyramid and eye. And Robert Kennedy taking the Mafia on? Um, just speculating again?

I’ve stayed with Jews in New York a few times. Lovely people.

But..

Cont.....

Get this, the founder of the Islam sect, Shia’a was Jewish:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/189-abdallah-ibn-saba
Abdullulah ibn saba (a jew) started the Shiite religion.

And the battles within Islam continue. It appears Mossad created Al Qaeda.

It does get confusing, but I guess that is what the game is. It’s all obfuscation and deception big time. I keep on reading stuff about the False Jews.

There is this card game called the Illuminati Card Game made in 1995 which actually predicted 911. The Kabala says if you reveal your evil deeds you will get better karma. Leonard Cohen appears to have predicted it also in “Let’s Take Manhatten, then Berlin”. And what’s been happening in Germany lately? It looks like Mossad did it. Israelis seen on day filming and truck bombs with actual pictures of the twin tower scene on them and the Israeli helped out of the USA by Jewish LAWYER. All our current issues are on these cards – gay marriage, mass immigration in order to divide and conquer. The sexual revolution of the 60’s. Stuff in the music industry controlled by Jewish producers etc. Look at all the sexualisation of women in the current music scene. There have been Satanic signs on albums.

The Queen is even implicated. And I'm sure the Freemasons are. Their close relationship to the Arabs?

I’ve never been into conspiracy theories and have never seen the Matrix but it is said that it is based on the Protocols of Zion. Neo’s passport expired on date of 911. And the Red pills and Blue pills that reflect the different states of consciousness of people. Another dystopian film, Cloud Atlas made by same Jews. PROPAGANDA!

Now, this New World Order and everything related building up to it is on these cards. Ie all the political issues now and since the 60’s, and guess what the NWO actually is? That’s right, Communism. Oh those satanic Marxist academics. Bravo cretins.

Cont...

Wow, Constance,

And I thought Arjay was off the planet :) So many long bows here !

Next thing you'll be claiming that Jesus was Jewish ..... and St Peter, Paul and Mary ......

Joe

..Cont

It seems the Protocols of Zion have the same intention as Islam, ie. Dar Es Salaam (House of Islam). Remember Muslims call Converts Reverts because the whole world is born a Muslim anyway. Crazy stuff. The Jews have the 10 lost tribes of Israel, which includes all Non Jews (that’s right, you and me, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian.). The year of Jewish Enlightenment is 2016 – returning to the House of Israel.

Oslo Syndrome phenomenon. They’re suicidal. Islam and Judaism are Bi-polar.

I hate to be this sober. People must wake up. I’m also very aware that the workplace in general is getting tougher and tougher. So is politics.

1. The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not human. They are beasts (Talmud: Baba Mezia 114B)
2. “It is permitted to take the body and life of a non-Jew” (Sepher Ikkarim Ille 24)
3. “It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah” (Talmud – Saahedrin 596)
4. “The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah” (Talmud), (Coschen Hamischpat 425 Hagah 425, 5)

Every Jew who spills the blood of the Godless (non-Jews) is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God” (Bammidber Raba c 21 & Jalkut 772)

“White people are the cancer of humanity” – Susan Sontag (Jew/Feminist)

“The Best among the Gentiles deserve to be killed,” Talmud, Rabbi Simeon ben-Yohai.
They did that with the Polish elite, intellectuals, etc. See Katyn Massacre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

http://destination-yisrael.biblesearchers.com/destination-yisrael/2012/12/rabbi-judah-ben-samuels-jubilee-prophecy-gives-the-year-of-the-messiah.html

It's so weird, crazy and diabolical:
http://www.biblesearchers.com/prophecy/planetx/losttribes11.shtml

“Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That’s what I would say. ” - Stephen Fry (Jew). Has good ole Stevie boy ever looked at his own cultural history? No, I don’t think so. The sheer arrogance of this man. Oh but they're clever, aren’t they?

Cont..

The lizard kings, the ROTHCHILDS and their sordid history including agitation during the American Civil War. Unbelievable!
URGENT:
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/rothschild.html

"Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything."
- Joseph Stalin
"Lastly, when the whole body of the Church should be sufficiently weakened and infidelity strong enough, the final blow (is) to be dealt by the sword of open, relentless persecution. A reign of terror (is) to be spread over the whole earth, and continue while any Christian should be found obstinate enough to adhere to Christianity."

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Federal%20Reserve%20Scam/quotes_on_the_federal_reserve.htm

http://www.parareligion.ch/

I have mentioned Bella Dodd before who was a leading Counsel in the Communist Party. She was trying to warn about the infiltration of Communists in the Vatican. She got deprogrammed and returned to the CC.

On that Zionist Jew’s website, destination yisrael. Biblesearchers. I looked on his facebook and saw he is closely monitoring the Vatican. Intimate details. How the hell has he got this inside information? I saw something (then lost it) that states the Rothchilds have implanted lizard priests (Jesuits) in there. I saw two priests named and dubbed Rothchild's priests. He also calls Benedict XVI a black pope because he has some Jewish ancestary. When I first hopped onto his site, I actually saw a momentary glimpse of a lizard.

He has weird planetary stuff in there with Egypt and pharisees etc.

And a bit on animal sacrifices.

Bottom quote from the author of the Silver Bear site:

"Its not what you don't know that will screw you up, it's what you know that is wrong. The spin you hear from the mainstream media is intended to mislead you. Open your eyes and face the future. If you leave your head in the sand and ignore it, you are only leaving your butt exposed for the world to kick. This all may sound like gloom and doom, but when you get a handle on what is going to happen, you will have a future filled with opportunity. Fortune favors the Informed."

Cont......

..Cont

ZIONISTS ARE THE ANTI-CHRIST!

The Russian Mafia are them.

Now, who is the trash pop queen who started it all? MADONNA! She is into the Kabbalah, converted to Zionism. “Like a Virgin” - that’s right – trashing the Virgin Mary. She is controlled by them, the Zionist music producers.

The Zionist agenda is to trash all Christian culture, ie Western Civilisation (what's left of it in this Post Christian world). And any other Non Jewish civilisation. Their most important aim is to destroy The Vatican.

THE ZIONIST FREEMASONS BROUGHT ABOUT VATICAN II (diabolical)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_Martin - Jesuit Scholar (found him on Zionist site)- THESE SCUM KNOW ALL THE IMPORTANT CATHOLICS.
The Zionist calls Malachi a mystic, and he is.
He was summoned to Rome to work at the Holy See as a private secretary of Cardinal Bea SJ from 1958 until 1964. This brought him into contact with Pope John XXIII. Martin's years in Rome coincided with the beginning of the Second Vatican Council (1962–65), all of whose sessions he attended, and which was to transform the Catholic Church in a way that the initially liberal Martin began to find distressing.

“Thus, Martin became well acquainted with prominent Jewish leaders, such as Rabbi Abraham Heschel, in 1961 and 1962”.[

The CC gagged by the Jews:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Joshua_Heschel
“At the Vatican Council II, as representative of American Jews, Heschel persuaded the Roman Catholic Church to eliminate or modify passages in its liturgy that demeaned the Jews, or referred to an expected conversion to Christianity.”
Man Is Not Alone (1951)
“Judaism views God as being radically different from humans, so Heschel explores the ways that Judaism teaches that a person may have an encounter with the ineffable.” Does this mean humans are dehumanised? What is this something else other than human?"

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT CATHOLIC ACTUALLY MEANS LIBERAL IN THE REAL SENSE.
CLASSICAL LIBERALISM. BUT THE ZIONISTS HAVE TURNED IT INTO AN EVIL LIBERALISM. PROGRESSIVENESS IS EVIL.

...Cont

....Cont

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_Martin#Opinions

In March 1997 Martin claimed on Radio Liberty's Steel on Steel, hosted by John Loefller, that two popes were murdered during the 20th Century:
• Pope Pius XI was murdered on the orders of Benito Mussolini, because of his 1931 encyclical, Non abbiamo bisogno, which was critical of the Italian fascist state.
• Pope John Paul I was murdered according to Martin's book, Vatican: A Novel, by Jean-Marie Villot, formerly Cardinal Secretary of State under Pope Paul VI, under orders from the U.S.S.R.
• Martin claimed that Popes John XXIII and Paul VI were Freemasons during a certain period and that photographs and other detailed documents proving this were in the possession of the Vatican State Secretariat. He allegorically mentioned these supposed facts in his 1986 novel Vatican: A Novel, where he related the masonic adherence of Popes Giovanni Angelica and Giovanni De Brescia. He claimed Archbishop Annibale Bugnini C.M. was a freemason and that Agostino Casaroli, long-time Cardinal Secretary of State, was an atheist.
• In his 1987 book. "The Jesuits", Martin claims to prove the existence of a diplomatic agreement between the Vatican and the USSR called the Metz Accord. The Vatican allegedly promised non-condemnation of communism in exchange for participation of Russian-Orthodox prelates as observers at the Second Vatican Council. In his book The Final Conclave, published on August 1, 1978, the month of the 1978 conclave that resulted in the 28 August election of Albino Luciani, Malachi Martin wrote of the unexpected election of a Cardinal Angelico, a figure that has been interpreted as corresponding to Luciani.”

Cont...

..Cont

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annibale_Bugnini
Church Commissions and Vatican II:
“However, according to Archbishop Piero Marini a former collaborator with Bugnini, after the Council commenced on October 11, 1962, Bugnini's fortunes were to wane for a while. Thus, although Bugnini had been secretary of the Preconciliar Commission, Fr. Ferdinando Antonelli, O.F.M. was instead appointed as secretary of the Conciliar Commission on the Sacred Liturgy on October 21, 1962. Bugnini was demoted to the position of a peritus (expert). At the same time, Bugnini was also removed from the chair of Liturgy at the Pontifical Lateran University in Rome "because his liturgical ideas were seen as too progressive."

Allegations of Freemasonry:
“Bugnini was suspected by some of being a Freemason, which is in conflict with Canon Law and Catholic tradition. Catholics who are Freemasons "are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion. " The public allegations of Bugnini's suspected Freemasonry began in the 1980s by Catholic writers Piers Compton and Michael Davies, as well as Australian Catholic theologian Fr. Brian Harrison, but official suspicions of high-ranking members of the Roman Curia being compromised by affiliations with Freemasonry date at least to the early 1970s. Indeed, Pope Paul VI was concerned with a possible infiltration by various opponents of the Church and thus commissioned a full investigation into the matter, appointing a Canadian Cardinal Gagnon (then archbishop) to conduct the task. Although the report was never made public, it was the subject of interest in the late 1970s when it was reported stolen by several Italian secular news organizations, prompting the Vatican's newspaper L'Osservatore Romano to take the very unusual step of reporting the theft of the highly sensitive and confidential report from a safe in one of the Curial offices.

Cont....

Cont...

In Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II, English Catholic writer Michael Davies asserts that Bugnini's Masonic connections were behind his Modernist liturgical reforms, and that the discovery of his Masonic affiliation prompted his sudden transfer by Pope Paul VI from his post in the Roman Curia to that of Papal Nuncio to Iran. However, Bugnini remained on as papal diplomatic representative under Pope John Paul II during the Iranian hostage crisis of 1979, which some observers suggest indicates either lack of sufficient evidence of his Freemasonry or his being acquitted of such association by the Holy See. Davies further asserted that an unnamed Cardinal told him in the summer of 1975 that a "dossier" proving him to be a Freemason had been brought to the Pope's desk.”

Writings:
“In 1964, Martin, under the pseudonym Michael Serafian, wrote The Pilgrim: Pope Paul VI, The Council and The Church in a time of decision, an apologia for the Jews, which, among other things, told the story of the Jewish question and the Second Vatican Council. He produced numerous best-selling fictional and non-fictional literary works, which became widely read throughout the world. His fictional works gave detailed insider accounts of Church history during the reigns of Popes Pius XII, John XXIII, Pope Paul VI (The Pilgrim, Three Popes and the Cardinal, Vatican: A Novel[16]), John Paul I (The Final Conclave[16]) and John Paul II (The Keys of This Blood, Windswept House).

His non-fictional writings cover a range of Catholic topics, such as demonic exorcisms (Hostage to the Devil), satanism, liberation theology, the Second Vatican Council (The Pilgrim), the Tridentine liturgy, Catholic dogma, modernism (Three Popes and the Cardinal; The Jesuits), the financial history of the Church (Rich Church, Poor Church; The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church), the NEW WORLD ORDER and the geopolitical importance of the Pope (The Keys of This Blood)”.

“Afterwards, he started working on a book with the working title Primacy: How the Institutional Roman Catholic Church became a Creature of the NEW WORLD ORDER.”

Cont......

Wow
just...wow...

I thought Leonard Cohen was a Buddhist, not a Kabbalist?
His song "The Future" combines elements of Christian and Jewish eschatology with Buddhist ideas of life after death.
Much as Cohen's song was somewhat of an anthem of the last half of the 1990's hipster scene I've noticed that the song "Baby Blue" by Badfinger has been used in many "hip" post 9-11 productions,what do we read into it's lyrics?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlIRUtJMA40

Jay,

Leonard is a Buddhist but still considers himself Jewish as well. He also grew up in a very Catholic city of Montreal. And apparently was a descendent of some important Rabbis. Other songs of his which would reflect Catholicism, such as "Sisters of Mercy" and "Joan of Arc".

Judaism seems to be bi-polar. I don't know - it is all so deceptive confusing. I think Leonard is prophetic and certainly not sinister. He has suffered depression for most of his life. But there are certainly sinister elements to Judaism, well Zionism anyway, as presented. Oh my God, I'm finding more and more EVIL stuff that is leading to the NEW WORLD ORDER. Satanic rituals included.

We have to destroy the BANKERS, the Rothchilds if we really want to save ourselves. And get back the money they stole from us, the people.

There are so many websites, its hard to know where to start.

http://politicalvelcraft.org/2012/09/14/illuminati-origins-of-secret-government-the-mental-fatal-disease-of-militant-narcissists-stop-them-cold-protect-the-constitution/

Hi Constance,

With respect, can you please tell us what you really think ?

God, I love conspiracy theories ! They give you a good idea about how the minds of people on the other planets work. I especially love their over-use of the Kon-Tiki Fallacy: because something could be, therefore it is.

Thank you, Constance. And Arjay too, while I'm at it.

Joe

Hi Joe,

You want to know what I think? Are you joking?

I have presented plenty of evidences which are totally clear that is true history. Tell me your thoughts on the bible-chaser Zionist’s site? And on the Rothchild's?

I’m still waiting for you to debate all I have posted. You have NADA response as you only now make a PERSONAL attack on me. That is not credible.

You have either swallowed the commie blue pill propaganda and have been brain washed or you are in on the whole sinister deception with the aim in destroying Western Civilisation and all its freedoms. You did not answer me when I asked you if you believe in freedom.

Tell me what you think of the FREEMASONS? And their involvement in the Mexican, French and Spanish Civil Wars?

You have not explained why you became a Marxist?

Hi Constance,

Sorry, I must have missed your questions. Okay:

Your suggestions about some sort of monolithic pro-Rothschild Jew are redundant: I suspect that most Jews wouldn't give a second thought about Rothschilds etc.

Freemasons ? Never been interested. Some bunch of crack-pots in silly aprons and with silly hand-shakes ? Yawn.

I was born a Marxist, in a sense: my parents were at the time of my birth anyway. But it's not innate: I dropped support for anything Russian when I was about twenty, and for anything much Chinese when I was closer to forty. I now don't believe in any sort of revolution, except in very exceptional circumstances: to my mind, all Utopias degenerate - and usually very quickly - into fascism.

Of course, I'm still a Marxist in a way: Harpo will always be my favourite.

I'm now much more a follower of Karl Popper and Isaiah Berlin, and in incremental reform rather than abrupt revolution. I don't believe in any sort of historical inevitability. I believe in imperfection, uncertainty and a forever-open world, as those two Jews would have advocated.

As for any connections between Protestants, Freemasons, Marxists and Jews, I'm not really up with any of that, since I prefer to stay on this planet.

Joe

Nice...

Joe,

Yes, I love the Marx Bros too, particularly "Duck Soup". Jokes aside……

Ooh, not sure how your unwillingness to discuss the connections within the secret societies deems you of this world? I guess ignorance is bliss, and safer with your current ideologies that keep on changing.

• Science studies what's at the edge of understanding, and what's at the edge of understanding is usually fairly simple. And it rarely reaches human affairs. Human affairs are way too complicated. In fact even understanding insects is an extremely complicated problem in the sciences. So the actual sciences tell us virtually nothing about human affairs.
-Noam Chomsky, in Science in the Dock, Discussion with Noam Chomsky, Lawrence Krauss & Sean M. Carroll (2011)

>>>>>>

Craig, Nice what?