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The Forum > Article Comments > Gender equality isn't hard > Comments

Gender equality isn't hard : Comments

By Conrad Liveris, published 8/12/2014

Hitting the targets and finding capable and qualified women to fill leadership roles just isn't hard for me and my network.

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Conrad, in your piece was a comment I found really interesting and I wonder whether you might like to expand on it. That comment was

'we cannot sit here and think that the sum of all intelligence, innovation and wisdom sits in the hands of university-educated white men – an increasingly small part of the population.'

While I understand and accept your point about the desirability of creating gender equitability, this particular extract is a little difficult to unpack and could lead the reader's thoughts in several directions.

For example, is it a university education that you regard as being problematic? Apparently it isn't, because the examples you give of successful women are university educated. However, if it is, then as you point out, wouldn't that tend to make an argument for more, not less male participation in leadership, since university educated males are 'an increasingly small part of the population.'? I understand the current gender ratio at university is around 5:3 in favour of women (excluding foreign students). Of course, within the STEM fields it is around 90:10 in favour of men.

On the other hand, if it is the case that a university education is a desirable leadership criterion, then surely we need to be promoting a more even opportunity for males to acquire that education, so that we can ensure a good pool of male candidates are available to fill the seats alongside the 50% of females at the board table?

Your initial example was that you had a pool of candidates that was 60% female for a job that required accounting and finance background. Doesn't this reflect pretty closely the gender ratio of people working in that field at a mid-senior level, which reflects the gender ratio of students at university around 10-15 years ago?

Thanks for the article, I hope you can find the time to give us your thoughts on these questions.
Posted by Craig Minns, Monday, 8 December 2014 8:30:07 AM
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Craig Minns, universities require a certain level of prior learning results or experience from prospective students.

If there are currently more female students at Australian Universities, then I take that to mean that currently more females are attaining the correct prerequisites to get into universities.

Maybe the problems with the education of our boys lies with the schooling they currently go through?
Or maybe there are just more female students now, with more choice of study at universities than they ever had before, who are now wanting to go to university?

It wasn't so long ago that it wasn't considered appropriate for females to go to university because they would be needed at home to look after their men and children.

University places are achieved by merit, not gender, and that is how it should be.
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 8 December 2014 10:34:42 AM
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Based on results and historical precedents we actually can assume that all innovation and wisdom is to be found in the White population though a university education isn't a pre-requisite and gender isn't an issue.
If you want to live in a technologically advanced, first world society or even a stable third world one where malnutrition isn't the norm the reins have to be in the hands of White men and women.
It's all academic anyway, due to the globalisation of business, out of control immigration and purposeful racial demographic change the future outlook for Australia is a standard of living something like that currently enjoyed by the inhabitants of Thailand or Indonesia.
We'll once again see a brain drain with all our best and brightest White men and women going overseas, to the U.S, China and the E.U. because there won't be jobs for graduates or the safe and prosperous society which is needed to nurture and sustain talented people.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 8 December 2014 11:15:48 AM
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I think the author has made a great case for why there hasn't been as much progress and people would like. It's because we have clueless people such as him, driving the bus.

As the first post pointed out there are lots of women accountants and lawyers. Try finding a female network engineer, or plumber, or brick layer.

But it's okay you just have to remember its the middle aged white mans fault.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Monday, 8 December 2014 11:57:48 AM
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the whole term 'gender equality' is idiotic and usually used by feminist for some ideological purpose. Treating all people fairly at least recognises the fact that men and women are different. Men don't need to take off to breast feed babies or have regular days off at certain times of the month. Not every company can be like the public service which pays people no matter what their performance ( or even if they are at work or not) because the money comes from the public trough.Surely the last Government and Captains picks taught us something. It appears not!
Posted by runner, Monday, 8 December 2014 12:22:37 PM
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Yes J.O.M.
We need to invest in our brightest people and their better ideas.
And that probably means removing the current road blocks that prevent that?
Namely, the corporate psychos, who chase power in the way a moth chases the flame.

And who bully and critique those with the best ideas; at least until they can present them as their own, and in so doing, accept all the acclaim, kudos and reward!

These are the seriously and serially incompetent money wasting/money burning empire builders, who surround themselves with 2-3 super competent assistants.
Who are often expected to work around the clock fixing the messes made by the born to rule emperors; (tinpot potentates) and who are all too often rewarded by becoming verbal punching bags for these rogue employers; or so called leaders!?

And in that context, one notes that K.R. gave away Pulsed Laser Light enrichment to the Yanks; (which ought to be rescinded) and or, leading by example, Alpha male T.A., has just one single token female in his Cabinet; and arguably, the most (only) competent one there?

Conversely, he has appointed/anointed one as Speaker!
Who has highlighted as nobody before has; the need for a truly independent Speaker; as seen in the real; and much spruiked, Westminster system.

I mean, would one appoint a member of one team or corner of either gender, to referee or umpire; and expect entirely impartial decisions?
Well, would one?

And then one bad decision compounded and followed by another; T.A., doesn't understand why he's doing so badly in the polls!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 8 December 2014 12:37:11 PM
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Rhrosty,
C'mon we all know what an Asian society looks like, a caste of very intelligent, very rich families at the top, a brahmin or technocratic caste and a mass of unintelligent, malnourished peasants.
If we're to be part of Asia, the personal wish and policy of all politicians then that's the type of society we're going to have, a society in which, as you pointed out the 'first families" (or "Zaibatsus" if you will) steal from or stand over the innovators and tall poppies.
We see it everywhere, the rich White families selling out the posterity of the poor and working class to their Asian allies, the Fisherman's Bend development in Melbourne is a case in point but it's rife, especially in Victoria:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lowend-buyers-shut-out-of-fishermans-bend-20141101-11fh5p.html
If you hadn't been to Melbourne for ten years you'd be stunned at how much it's changed.
By the way, Asian societies are pretty big on gender roles and assigning women a certain status in society so the main factor mitigating against advances in this area in Australia is the rate of demographic change and the re making of a prosperous first world, White nation into a second tier Asian oligarchy.
The "left" have all the same information that I do and we agree on most points but they ignore or downplay race as a contributing factor anywhere in the discussion of issues such as equality or prosperity.
It's right to decry the old system of colonial privilege for it's structural inequalities but the new system of 21st century colonial oligarchy is virtually indistinguishable from the former, up to and including the re-appearance of slavery in it's oldest and most recognisable forms.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 8 December 2014 2:08:51 PM
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Oh God! Tell me Conrad, just how many times do you socialists have to get it wrong before you wake up to yourselves, & recognise YOU HAVE IT WRONG.

You have tried 5 times to have a lady Premier or Prime Minister, & each time we have had an unmitigated disasters. Not done even yet we have a socialist lady, thicker than 2 gate posts as opposition leader in Qld. Hell even the lucky country can only suffer so much incompetence before we are in the do do.

We have most state education systems now run by feminists, I couldn't call them ladies, & they become a bigger disaster daily.

Queensland Health under Beattie & affirmative action had dozens of women promoted to senior management, & thus to their 5th or 6Th levels of incompetence. It has taken years & a couple of hundred million dollars to get their pay system working again, & hospitals adequately staffed again. Our local hospital, catering to about 35,000 was 6 years without maternity services under one lady district general manager.

Give me a call when your finances are stuffed, I know a good male accountant, who'll be able to sort you out.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 8 December 2014 2:40:23 PM
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I don't know what you're talking about Hasbeen!

I can't wait for Tanya Plibersek to be Treasurer and Sarah Hanson-Young immigration minister.

Some quality leadership there.

/end sarc
Posted by dane, Monday, 8 December 2014 7:47:13 PM
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The ‘more women than men go university’ statistics are misleading.

Across the Western world generally, women tend to outnumber men in humanities, art and design (creative industries), and community medicine and education. Men outnumber women in computer science, engineering, business and technology.

Also, female-dominant courses formerly provide by TAFEs (polytechs), teachers colleges, art schools and nursing institutions have been upgraded from diploma to university degree status. As a result, it appears as if women are ‘on the march’ and overtaking men at universities, when it’s really just a case of universities incorporating previous female-dominated institutions and courses into their campuses.

Another huge factor that is constantly overlooked is that men comprise the overwhelming majority of trades (other than hairdressing), which do not require university training. As blue collar trades are still overtly macho, sexist and discriminatory, women are generally discouraged from joining them. Other than the trades, women’s job choices are limited to either low-paid service jobs, unskilled factory work (which is greatly diminishing) or university study
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 8 December 2014 11:50:20 PM
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Killarney, "As blue collar trades are still overtly macho, sexist and discriminatory, women are generally discouraged from joining them"

What absolute nonsense from someone who obviously has nothing to do with trades and blue collar work.

Women would be welcomed but they do not apply for the jobs and training opportunities. We presently have women on a building site, for instance truck driving. They come from Ireland and are here as temporary workers. No locals are interested. The pay and conditions are good and there is plenty of work.

I am not interested in speculating why very few Australian women and not so many women generally are interested in the work. Others can do that. The fact remains that no employer is likely to knock back anyone who will turn up at work and do the job.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 9 December 2014 12:27:24 AM
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Killarney, I quite agree with you that women and men have seen their life choices reduced over the past 50 years. Do you have any suggestions for changing that?
Posted by Craig Minns, Tuesday, 9 December 2014 7:30:05 AM
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Killarney,
The blue collar tradesmen are almost all subcontractors and independants these days, not many people employ labourers or have a large staff and there are plenty of husband and wife teams getting about doing landscaping, painting, plastering, tiling etc.
Construction methods have also changed a lot in the last two decades, plumbers for example don't do much brazing or trench digging by hand anymore, the plumbing is mostly plastic and the bobcat and mini excavators have taken most of the back breaking element out of the trade.
With regard to things like electrical work, automation and plant maintenance you have to have a science and maths brain to make the big money in those areas these days and we know that not many women are interested in those fields of study.
I get the impression that Feminists see tradesmen as overpaid oafs who are doing a job anyone can do but that's not the case, most firms want their apprentices to have year 12 and if you want to get ahead you have to do extra study, get all your tickets, do business courses etc, be constantly reading about standards and such, the days of just turning up and as long as you had a strong back you'd bee set for life are long gone.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 9 December 2014 9:33:02 AM
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OTB,

Up until I retired in 1994 I only ever worked with four tradeswomen, one welder and three fitters and turners, all were very good at their jobs and were well respected by their workmates; the only thing that changed was that the men started to keep their work areas and their machines cleaner!!
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 10 December 2014 8:08:29 PM
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Don't believe a word of that Is Mise.

I'll bet the calendar collection on the wall went into the mens shower room.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 10 December 2014 8:12:49 PM
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