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The Forum > Article Comments > The spectre of terrorism > Comments

The spectre of terrorism : Comments

By Bill Calcutt, published 17/10/2014

This paradigm has been shattered in the 21st century with the global ascendance of technology-enabled psychological warfare, with the spectre of terrorism emerging as a universal trigger for a hysterical emotional response.

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The spectre of terrorism!
What, this is not actually happening, but is just a spectre, that then engenders a hysterical response. WTF! ARE YOU SERIOUS!
Were those severed heads just a figment of overworked imaginations, as were the crucifixions, the buried alive events; and women and children captured and used as sex slaves, just very imaginative or diabolically disingenuous reporting!?
There is another spectre on the horizon, the spectre of Ebola, which is nearly as dangerous and capable of the same mindless extermination, of whole peoples!
Both of which must be confronted and eliminated with extreme prejudice; with as little loss of "Human life" as is possible.
The do nothing approach, as seems advocated by the Author? Is just not an option, in either case.
One being just as dangerous and demanding an immediate extermination response, with extreme urgent alacrity, as the other!
There's nothing wrong with moving into dream castles in the clouds, always providing, you don't take up permanent residency!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 17 October 2014 10:02:34 AM
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It is refreshing to read an article from someone who clearly does not get his ideas from the photo-shopped nonsense that that passes for news in the MSM.
We have been presented with the ludicrous spectacle of our PM telling us he likes our 'rights' so much he is taking them away for safe keeping. The laws his government is passing go further in encroaching on our liberties than the laws passed in any other country in the West. As the author says, this will alter our relationship with ASIO. They will no longer be thought to be acting for us, but rather against us.
It's so easy to scare people. Create a spectre, currently one of terrorists, and those with more impressionable imagination than common sense will shiver in their socks. They miss the larger agenda, which is one of control. By allowing the terror to enter, the terrorist wins, and our liberties, those nebulous things that make our life so special, go out the window.
Or into the PM's back pocket for safe keeping - and without debate. It is telling, if just a bit of hysteria-free time is taken to think about it, that all these news laws are being rushed. What's the hurry? Once surrendered, it will be a hard and long task getting those rights back.
Posted by halduell, Friday, 17 October 2014 10:50:37 AM
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Hi there Mr CALCUTT...

I've read your topic twice in order that I had a clearer understanding what it is you're trying to convey ? I still don't actually ? It would appear prima facie, that you engage in language of a kind that attempts to illustrate your academic ability, rather than clearly enunciating your position on this vague topic 'The spectre of terrorism'. I would hardly think this current 'terrorism' incident to be a spectre, a mere apparition, just a fictional shadow ? There again, I've never been employed in ASIO or the NCA, so I guess I'd have no idea ?

So can I take it then, that you believe our politicians are, exaggerating or embellishing upon this current terrorist threat, in order to convey further powers to ASIO ? Or is it to reinforce existing dominance on your former employer's at ONA ? Or is it just a simple political strategy, employed by the LNP to deflect criticism from Mr HOCKEY's budget ?

How can you explain then, these recent public decapitations, if this is all but a spectre ? A matter for the local police service ? Also, if it was, just a political strategy by the conservatives, why then has the Labor Party backed the LNP in this entire issue ?
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 17 October 2014 3:42:03 PM
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Hi Bill

Yours is one of the more important and balanced security commentaries to be published on OLO for a good while.

In your 4th paragraph I assume the "we" is society implying we are all simultaneously hit with the fear of a renewed terrorist threat.

I would say that there is a bit more of a hiearchy of information flow with the US and UK Governments formulating a worldview of assessed threat. This view is then adopted by our own Government. Then the word is spread to the MSM and community through media statements and Press Releases. In parallel Islamic State (IS) has used modern social media technology to itself boost fears of its terrorism.

This hiarchy model may be a crude explanation for our terrorism fears in our Five Eye countries.

However if one were a Sunni living in Syria or Iraq things may be totally different - with the threats of Iraqi and Syrian armies and especially Shiite militias being greater worries than IS. See Amnesty International's Shiite Militia In Iraq Killing Sunnis With "Absolute Impunity" impunityhttp://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE14/015/2014/en/17cbb7ef-7ca4-4b5a-963e-661f256fddb0/mde140152014en.pdf?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=%2ASituation%20Report&utm_campaign=SitRep1015

Still its the defence of Australia against terrorism (of any faith) that is most important.

So yours is an excellent article worth far more attention from OLO commenters.

Regards

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 17 October 2014 4:19:37 PM
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As usual, Bill Calcutt has authored an extremely well written article which is pure BS.

Bill thinks that war is just awful, and it can always be avoided by simply respecting human rights, being diplomatic, and trying to figure out what you have done wrong to make the people who want to kill you mad. Just count how many times Bill uses "we" in the context that everything is our fault. Nowhere does Bill investigate the motivations of people like ISIS. No, to people like Bill, ISIS must exist because it is our fault that the Muslims are mad at us.

The funny thing is, that Bill mentions how human beings can learn by their mistakes to avoid war. He must have forgotten the role of the "appeasers" prior to WW2 who shared some responsibility for the rise of Nazi Germany. The "appeasers" could not bring themselves to understand that it was a lot better to invade Germany in 1933 in a small war, than to let Hitler and his crew become almost unstoppable and get into a very big and bad war.

Thank whatever God you pray to that Hitler thought that the atomic bomb was just the result of "Jewish influence" on scientific research or we would all be singing "Deutschland uber Alles." as our national anthem. And you can bet that if Hitler had been smart enough to realise the potential of the atomic bomb, and begun an atomic weapons program, the 1933 versions of Bill Calcutt would have opposed war on Germany to stop Hitler from developing a bomb.

Bill is whining about the new anti terrorism laws and saying that it is all unnecessary. I am sure that the politically correct in New York said the same thing prior to 9/11 but one presumes they changed their minds very quickly with the reality of bits of skyscrapers raining down on their heads
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 18 October 2014 7:12:13 AM
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Rhrosty

Well over 5 million people were killed in the DRC by the darling of the West, Paul Kagami and his Rwandan Patriotic Front, without any overwhelming need for the West to do anything about it.

Ditto hundreds of thousands of Tamils murdered in Sri Lanka by the Western-backed Singhalese government. Ditto 2000+ Gazens murdered every couple of years by the Western-backed Israeli government. Ditto the ongoing slaughter of Tibetans and Muslim nationalists by the Chinese government, whose economic interests are inextricably linked with the West's.

Ditto thousands of Ukrainians killed at the hands of the Kiev neo-Nazi Western-backed junta. (Have you checked out the torture porn videos on YouTube of what was done to the young people in Odessa who were simply gathering signatures for an election referendum? Their heads were charred to a crisp, while the rest of their bodies and clothing were left largely intact. Go figure.)

Ditto the 500,000 children who died as a result of the West's sanctions against Iraq before their country was invaded and bombed back to the stone age.

Ditto the hundreds of thousands who were tortured and killed by the West's invasion and bombing of Libya, despite the fact that Gaddafi was a popular leader who brought his country out of abject poverty to become the most prosperous nation in Africa.

However, because a few white Caucasian Western hostages are beheaded on video, we are told that we must 'do something' (a euphemism for bombing the crap out of yet another non-Western country). Don't bother to notice that the Ninja guy doing the beheading said clearly and plainly that it was a protest against the West's bombing of Middle Eastern countries.

So what did the West do? Of course, the only thing it does best. Invade and bomb yet another Middle Eastern country - again ... still.

I give up
Posted by Killarney, Saturday, 18 October 2014 7:29:36 AM
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It's interesting if predictable that Hitler is being resurrected as an excuse for the present day excesses. It's a tired metaphor employed by everyone from the British Royal Family to war-whores in the Beltway. The argument seems to go a little like we need to do this and that to prevent a Hitler emerging - just consider how much easier it would have been to deal with Hitler if only we had done this and that while he was still getting his act together.
Maybe so, but in Ukraine where his legacy is a growing daily reality, silence seems to reign on the perils of going down the Hitler path. The neo-Nazis who really do laud his example are leaving behind them mass graves of the killed, some tortured and possibly farmed for body parts, now being found in areas being cleared of mines by rebel militia from Donbass. The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe has confirmed this.
And from the West, from those employing the Hitler trope? Nothing.
http://journal-neo.org/2014/10/17/ukraine-the-wild-fields-of-the-21st-century/
Posted by halduell, Saturday, 18 October 2014 8:27:42 AM
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Utter fools.
Just look at the track record and tell me it is a good idea to go off warmongering. AGAIN.
10 years ago people like me said this invasion of Iraq will end in disaster. Civil war, sectarian war and atrocities by the bucketload.
Right werent we.

Will you listen now when we say that once again invading, bombing and occupation will just make it worse.
Another 10 years of this idiocy and IS will have their caliphate and it will stretch from Libya all the way to Turkey. Then they really will be able to threaten us.

Wake up fools. You are being conned and we all will most likely pay a high price.

FIGHT WAR NOT WARS!
Posted by mikk, Saturday, 18 October 2014 10:55:56 AM
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Halduell,
I'd be very wary of claims that Right Sector are "Nazis" or that the National Guard carried out massacres.
http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/Ukraines-far-Right-pays-tribute-to-Jewish-man-slain-in-protests-345931
When I read "Neo Nazi" I don't automatically think "Nationalist", 99% of the time these "Nazis" are working for the people they are supposed to hate, the remaining 1% are just idiots and kooks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTKP-LAVBOU&list=UUIibK0GTXCaQCAamJAepm1g
The words "far right" are a euphemism for "pro Israel", " Far Right" groups are set up all over the world to protect Jewish interests while genuine Nationalists are simply ignored by both the mainstream and alternative journalists.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 18 October 2014 12:25:08 PM
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Killarney, I understand your feeling. In a world filled with lies and endless wars and little hope of any real change or movement towards lasting PEACE, it's easy to think: Why bother?

The Forces of Predatory Capitalism and Corrupt Christianity are massive and powerful and both are backed by the MSM and the Corporate Crooks.

The world is approaching a tipping point, one that, inevitably will involve nuclear war. The U.S., the Empire of Evil, will use nukes to ensure it marginalizes Russia and China.

The result of that will be a Pyrrhic victory of massive proportions but Americans can't see that, so caught up are they believing that their might is right and they are exceptional.

Americans still live in the world of the sixgun. They are retarded primitives!

Buy yourself a box of wine and have a party. Might as well enjoy the last days of Earth.
Posted by David G, Saturday, 18 October 2014 12:46:59 PM
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On one hand, one group says we should avoid doing anything that might aggravate the trouble the west's having with this pesky ISIL mob. On the other hand, there are some of you who say we should escalate our response to ISIL's continued attacks by bombing the hell out of them? So who's right, and who's wrong? I don't think any of you have the slightest idea of what's really occurring over there, and neither do I. I see the author of this theme has claimed he's ex. this and ex. that so what? Why would he have any greater or lesser understanding of this issue, than anyone else for that matter? If he does, perhaps there's someone in the intelligence community is violating security, and should be brought to account. If it's just speculation, well it's just another persons opinion and nothing more.

However, there is one indisputable fact. Within the next quarter to half century, there will be another world war, between the Islamic nations, and the non Islamic nations, or if you prefer, the Infidels. Anybody who disputes this, must be incredibly sheltered and completely oblivious to the deteriorating nature of the events in Middle East, a place where most of the worlds oil stocks to come from.
Posted by misanthrope, Saturday, 18 October 2014 12:59:08 PM
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There is much in what you say Killarney!
And I was one of the most surprised people, when in The first Gulf war, we pulled out with job half done, and the Butcher of Baghdad firmly ensconced, and able to take to his own people, with a murderous pogrom, just because they were encourage by Bush senior, to claim back their forfeited freedom.
It'd be great if we had a time machine and go back and do things differently, correct past mistakes!
We can't and all that remains is not to repeat the mistakes that allowed things like the exampled absolutely shameful Rwandan genocide, when we should have mobilized at a UN level, and protected the innocent from the brutal ethnic cleansing; that started and ended that shameful chapter in human history.
We should have simply not waited for the UN security council, but as we did in the genocide/ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia; just get in there, and take to the aggressor, with a great big stick.
Otherwise, why have a great big stick!?
Most of the Muslims that were saved by that action, even though Russia exercised its veto, are thankful for the Wests' "interference"?
As are, I dare say, the Kurds and other less violent Muslims, living in the area now claimed by Isil!
Doing nothing in Bosnia was not an option and neither is it an option in Syria or Iraq!
Continuing Russian objections that very effectively emasculate the UN, need to be ignored, just as we did in Bosnia!
Cheers, Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Saturday, 18 October 2014 2:13:36 PM
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Rhrosty I thought exactly the same thing, when they did not go straight through Baghdad. Thinking about it later, I came to the conclusion that Bush senior probably didn't have much choice in it. I believe his Arab allies, or their population, were almost as scared of Bush/USA as they were of Saddam Hussein, & threatened to stop cooperation if he kept going.

I agree completely, we are too damn gentle in our conquests. It is only the Genghis Khan's of this world that bring lasting peace to their newly conquered dominions. Only by ruthlessly suppressing all opposition will peace reign. It appears ISIS is well aware of this, & will thrash us while we try to be the good guys.

We have only 2 choices, get ruthless or be subjected. I think our bleeding hearts will do for us, in the not too far distant future. There would never have been a Rule Britannia, if our forbears had been less tough with opposition.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 18 October 2014 6:16:06 PM
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Good post, Rhosty.

To Haldual.

I presume that I am the "neo-Nazi" that you are referring too?

The example of Hitler, and how WW2 would probably have been avoided had the Allies invaded Germany when it was very weak, instead of waiting until it rearmed, just happens to be an instructive lesson on the use of force to prevent a much more serious and destructive war. I know that it causes people like you to cringe for two very good reasons. You understand the role of the "peace at any price" Appeasers in encouraging Hitler's ambitions, and you can understand that had the Allies missed a golden opportunity to prevent WW2 because they were too pacifist to do what was necessary.

My take on Ukraine, is that the Crimea is a part of Russia and I can understand why the Russians want it back. Russia took the Crimea from the Muslims in 1767, who had previously took it from the Byzantines. Anyone who helps to shrink the Muslim caliphate is alright by me. The Crimea was ceded to Ukraine by Khruschev for administrative efficiency only, as the USSR at that time believed that Ukraine would always be a part of the USSR. The smartest thing that the Ukraine could do is to cede the Crimea back to Russia and give them a land corridor.

I am more likely to blame the idiot who directed flight MH 17 over a war zone, where SAM's were flying about shooting down military aircraft, than the Russians who were helping the pro Russian insurgents. Abbot should "shirt front" the air traffic controller instead of Putin.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 19 October 2014 7:40:09 AM
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Hasbeen,
Churchill and Truman if they were alive today would have already carpet bombed Mosul and Raqqua and they'd be starving the survivors to death like they did in Berlin in 45-46.
That's how they "de Nazified" Germany, starved, beat and raped the people into submission and locked up anyone who still followed the ideology or who had been involved in the NS bureaucracy.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 19 October 2014 7:42:05 AM
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The United States Has Killed At Least 8 Million People
In The Last 50 Years For The Greedy Capitalistic
Corporate Profits Controlled By The 1% Oligarchy

In the last 50 years, the United States has promoted, financed and participated in over 200 incursions and 20 separate wars, killing over 8,000,000 people.

1952 - 79, 70,000 Iranians killed. ( Ayatollah Khomeini, US public enemy for the 1980s, was on the CIA payroll while in exile in Paris in 1970s, as were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden at different times and in different places. )

1954 - 120,000 Guatemalans killed

1954 - 1975, 4,000,000 Vietnamese and Cambodians killed.

1965 - 3,000 Dominican Republicans killed

1965 - 800,000 Indonesians killed

1973 - 30,000 Chileans killed

1975 - 250,000 East Timorese killed

1970s - 1,000,000 Angolans killed

1984 - 30,000 Nicaraguans killed

1980s - 80,000 El Salvadoreans killed

1989 - 8,000 Panamanians killed in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner now turned enemy, Manuel Noriega,

1980s - over 700,000 Libyans, Grenadians, Somalians, Haitians, Afghanistanis, Sudanese, Brazilians, Argentineans and Yugoslavians killed,

1991 - over 1,000,000 Iraqis killed, including over 500,000 children -- about which Madeline Albright ( then, Secretary of State ) said "their deaths are worth the cost". While George W. Bush owns over 80% of the oil wells in Kuwait, trouble will continue there.

( Source: Philip Bradbury, Insight Magazine, November 2001 )

View the 200+ Incursions by the United States since WWII
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/index.html#post
Posted by David G, Sunday, 19 October 2014 9:08:00 AM
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P.S. So who are the real terrorists?
Posted by David G, Sunday, 19 October 2014 9:13:05 AM
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David,
Don't leave out the so called "Good War", that's vital for context, add a conservative estimate of about five million Germans,Volksdeutsche and their Eastern European allies along with a million Japanese killed in the post 1945 period.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 19 October 2014 10:10:17 AM
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@LEGO
Posted Sunday, 19 October 2014 7:40:09 AM
You presume incorrectly.
The neo-Nazis I was referring to are members of the extreme right wing Right Sector and Azov Battalion, and probably other like-minded militant organizations, reporting to the Ministry of Internal Affairs in the Ukrainian government. They fly the Swastika and the Wolfsangle, advocate death to all Russian speakers in the Donbass and are responsible (Jay of Melbourne - you are simply wrong on this) for the mass graves now being uncovered in areas they have recently vacated and now being swept for mines by the fighters from the Donbass. They recently marched in Kiev to honour Stepan Bandera who fought alongside the Nazis in WWII.
I agree with your take on the Crimea, and I agree that the air traffic controller who was on the job in Kiev the day the Malaysian airliner MH17 went down has some explaining to do. For instance, was he or was he not aware of Ukrainian fighter jets being in the air and in close proximity to MH17 at the time it went down?
You clearly have no idea what makes me cringe, but here's a hint. I cringe to see the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia and Turkey create, arm and support ISIS and then bomb Syrian infrastructure under the highly bogus claim that they are fighting terrorism. I cringe when I hear Abbott talk of shirt-fronting an international leader of real stature such as President Putin.
And I cringe when the Wallabies kick away a rare chance to beat the All Blacks such as happened last night with less than one minute to full time.
Posted by halduell, Sunday, 19 October 2014 11:54:30 AM
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Halduell,
There's more evidence to suggest that Svoboda and the self defence forces are funded by Jewish billionaires and trained and advised by former IDF soldiers than there is to back your case.
http://www.evilyoshida.com/thread-5337.html
I'm an expert in "far right" groups, I know things you don't, the words "far right" mean "for Israel" in 99% of cases, the rest are not genuine.
The SS paraphernalia and Bandera worship don't really mean anything, it's like White kids in Australian suburbs wearing red or blue bandannas and calling themselves "Crips" and "Bloods". You're choosing to believe Russian propaganda over the assurances of the Jewish community in Ukraine that there are no "fascists" at large and the words of the Right Sector leadership themselves:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/ukraine-uprising-fascist-coup-grassroots-movement
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 19 October 2014 12:25:54 PM
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@Jay of Melbourne
I doubt you are any more of an expert than the rest of us. I don't doubt that you are writing to an agenda. The question is, whose?
Posted by halduell, Sunday, 19 October 2014 1:44:47 PM
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None of you have the slightest idea what you are
talking about except that person Hasbeen, seems
like he's got the right idea. Fight fire with
fire.
Posted by misanthrope, Sunday, 19 October 2014 2:20:45 PM
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This month's coveted eggbeater goes to.......Killarney! Well done Killarney! You have put Arjay to shame this month in your masterful ability to blame "the west" for everything that ever went wrong in the world.

Now let's see.

Rwanda was the west's fault because "the west" did nothing about it.

The civil war in Sri Lanka is "the west's" fault because the west did nothing about it.

The civil war in Libya is also "the west's fault" because "the west" did do something about it.

The civil war in the Ukraine is also somehow "the west's" fault.

Seems to me that we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

Next. Anyone who suffered in Iraq because of Saddam Hussein's refusal to co operate with UN inspectors, who wanted to find the atomic weapons program he had bragged about constructing, is also the fault of the west

Killarney, please keep up the ridiculous propaganda. It is bizarre reasoning like yours which once prompted me to reassess my own left wing ideals and start thinking straight. If you are going to sprout propaganda, you have to be credible. Because if your reasoning becomes incredible, you are going to do more harm than good to your cause. Most people are not stupid, and if you write absolute rubbish which assumes that they are, sooner or later they are going to wise up that you and everything you believe is nonsense. You would do better to tone it down a bit. Claiming that "the west" is the personification of evil is not going to win you many converts in the west.

I don't know why I am helping you? On second thought, please keep it up. Since reading blithering stupidity like you have just written made me think twice about my own left wing ideals, I presume that there are many other maturing young people out there who can do the same thing.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 19 October 2014 4:05:52 PM
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Funny, isn't it. My post talking about the 8 million killed by the U.S. (a very conservative figure which doesn't allow for the continuing effects of Agent Orange and depleted uranium, etc,) generated no comment from the Yank-loving peanut gallery! What's up? Cat got your tongue?

But then, what's 8 million dead to a peace-loving Christian country like the U.S.A. which loudly claims to be seeking peace while it sells billions of dollars of arms to the world?

Methinks I smell rank hypocrisy!
Posted by David G, Sunday, 19 October 2014 5:44:57 PM
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Check out the series "Counter Terrorism" on Youtube.

People don't like war, states have to scare or alarm us to enlist our support for war. It is astonishing how often lies have been used to get popular support for war.
Just google: The Gleiwitz incident - the pretext for Nazi Germany to go to start WW2
(sorry the rest are US/Brit egs but I'm more familiar with their history - I'm sure there are other examples from other countries.)
Lusitania for WW1
Pearl Harbour for WW2 (maybe)
Gulf of Tonkin for Vietnam
Babies in humidicribs in Kuwait for Gulf war 1
911 - Afghanistan and Gulf War 2 Patriot Act
(see Youtube about 911 families who fought to have an investigation into 911 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZEBlTtBdiU )
WMD in Gulf War 2 (did anyone get fired for that mistake?)

All eg's of "letting things happen", making up stuff, or even worse, atrocities set up by states themselves to enable that state to go to war. All disappeared down the memory hole!

ISIS terrorism is real, but ask yourself - how did they get so powerful so quickly? The US has a huge multi-trillion dollar military intelligence industry, and they didn't see this coming? Why did the MSM show such gruesome wall to wall coverage against the wishes of the family of the first US victim, James Foley? Why are we in the Middle east? (Hint Brendan Nelson as Minister for Defence in the 2nd Gulf war said it - it's the oil!)

Our governments don't give two hoots for human rights. They use that talk because we do. Our governments support vile dictators with horrendous human rights violations, but who also give their multinational companies access to resources. How come we trade so easily with China (massive human violations just think iPhones, sweatshops, prison labour) but we turn a blind eye because of economic interests. Saudi Arabia was implicated in 911 and violates women's human and civil righs, and beheads people for sorcery etc, but we aren't invading them anytime soon.
Posted by BJelly, Sunday, 19 October 2014 11:38:08 PM
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Sorry, forgot to add this interview from Gen Wesley Clarke on how 911 used as pretext for war in Iraq, and a list of other nations that US intended to invade. He also comments about why West don't intervene in places like Africa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8FhZnFZ6TY
Posted by BJelly, Sunday, 19 October 2014 11:50:35 PM
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LEGO

For someone so gung-ho about accusing people of 'blithering stupidity', you seem to have a lot of difficulty understanding an argument.

I said nothing about it being the West's 'fault' for all the genocides and massacres I listed (although there is a mountain of evidence that implicates the West in all of them). My argument was that the West is HIGHLY SELECTIVE about which genocides and massacres it chooses to 'do something' about. When genocides and massacres suit Western interests, the West has a well-trodden history of looking the other way.

As you seem to flounder badly when faced with things like nuance and complexity, no wonder you didn't last long on the left.

Rhrosty/Hasbeen/LEGO/JoM et al

Your febrile and ignorant posts make me think of the saying: When you think you're a hammer, every problem becomes a nail.

Unfortunately, too many people with your mindset are attracted to military careers. It is the military whom we misguidedly entrust to defend world peace, when the military is really its greatest enemy.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 20 October 2014 2:24:52 AM
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The only "argument" that you submitted in your last post, Killarney, was that the west was the personification of evil, because it was responsible for every bad thing in the world. Such tripe is hardly going to win you any converts outside of ISIS and morons who think like that.

I am glad that you have realised that your last post was so over the top that you are embarrassed about it, and now claim a position that is more moderate. You say that the only time the west gets involved in massacres is when it is in it's interest. That is not correct. Somalia was a situation where millions of people were starving to death but the Somali leaders were more interested in fighting their civil war than feeding their own people. All tribal leaders used starvation as a weapon against their tribal enemies, and they all robbed UN food convoys and even killed UN aid personnel. The UN appealed to the USA for help. Got that? The UN appealed to the USA for help. Nobody else would do the job.

But the yanks found out that gratitude is not a strong point among Muslim people. When the Somali people were asked to choose between their own tribal leaders who were starving them all to death, and the UN and it's US protectors who were trying to feed them, they chose their own leaders. Over 100 UN personnel were slaughtered by the very people they were trying to save, some in the most gruesome way. UN personnel called Mogadishu "the city of the insane", and one US general said "all we are doing is feeding them so that they can fight us."

Get it through your head that some people are not worth saving, and not worth feeding. Why have your people murdered for helping ingrates?

Every situation is different. And of course the west mainly acts in it's own interest. Everybody does that. Don't you do the same thing yourself? Or are you so altruistic that you have a halo and a chorus of angels singing behind you?
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 20 October 2014 3:07:34 AM
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I think LEGO is a paid troll.
Bill is right and should know as he is ex intelligence.Bill must also be aware of Susan Lindauer the author of Extreme Prejudice.Susan w as the ex CIA agent who dealt directly with the Iraqi Govt. she was the first non Arab to be arrested under the Patriot Act.You can friend her on Facebook .

Ray McGovern is another ex CIA ,a senior analyst who know.s the truth about the fascists who currently control the system.
Posted by Arjay, Monday, 20 October 2014 5:07:27 AM
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LEGO

‘Killarney/ I am glad that you have realised that your last post was so over the top, that you are embarrassed about it and now claim a position that is more moderate.’

What?? Huh??

Either, as Arjay speculates, you are a paid troll … or you have an overly vivid imagination. Get a grip.

As for the famine and civil war in Somalia – this, along with the Rwandan Patriotic Front invasion of Rwanda and DRC, the partition of Sudan and the overthrow of the Jamahariya government in Libya, to name a few, are all part of the ongoing US AfriCOM proxy wars of the last couple of decades to wrest control of Africa from established Chinese and Russian oil and mining interests and to nip any kind of independent African political union in the bud.

The fact that approximately 5-8 million people have died as a direct result of these proxy wars is all grist for the US-NATO ‘genocide’ propaganda mill.

I suggest that you and others here read up on the Hegelian Dialect and principle of Problem – Reaction – Solution, which forms the basis of the US-NATO proxy wars in Africa, Latin America, the Middle East and eastern Europe (and all imperial wars throughout history).

First, manufacture a crisis (problem).

Second, whip up public reaction, whereby the public demands a solution.

Third, implement the solution, which had been pre-determined from the beginning.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 20 October 2014 7:06:46 AM
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Oh, I am sorry Killarney. I thought you might have been growing a brain and realised that your position was so over the top that most people must think that you are a kook. But you are saying that you still believe the evil "west" is behind everything naughty? Hey! Where are you writing this from? Somewhere on the outskirts of Kobane? Because nobody but Arjay and those ISIS nutters could take you seriously.

But please keep it up.

As I have mentioned to Arjay, he is doing the Australian people a real service by frothing at the mouth and making young Australian lefties realise how out of touch with reality the leftist position is. It was just such nonsense like you have written which made me think twice about socialism and the people who advocate it. To accept your worldview was to accept that my people, my culture, my civilisation, and my people's friends are all the scum of the Earth.

That was something that I knew was rubbish. I knew then that people like yourself are either totally stupid or clever liars. You will be happy to know that I don't think that you or Arjay are clever liars. It made me wonder how dumb I was to accept your socialist worldview in the first place. But I suppose when you are young, naïve, idealistic, and feel the need to belong to a group you see as socially progressive, you simply accept without thinking what you are told. You trust that your peers and the people who's group that you aspire to join that they are telling you the truth. Until you hit the yawning socialist credibility gap and are forced to switch on your objective reasoning circuits.

That is why it is important for you and Arjay to keep writing laughable rubbish. We are depending on you now. Why don't you blame the USA and the Euros for burning down the Reichstag too? Perhaps with some creative thinking you could pin the "stolen generations" on them?

Just some suggestions.
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 20 October 2014 2:15:38 PM
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Calm down, LEGO. You're the one rabbitting on about 'the evil West', not me, and I suspect that it's YOUR keyboard that's drenched in mouth-frothing spittle, not mine or Arjay's.

Imperialism and its symbiotic relationship to propaganda is not a specifically Western phenomenon. It's just that, currently, the US-led Western nations are the main perpetrators - and even then, it's only a few consistent players, mainly the UK, Australia, Canada, France and to a lesser extent Germany.

And I think you're very out of touch with the so-called 'left'. In fact, a lot of today's left - in their self-righteous obsession with overthrowing tyranny - are pathetic pushovers for any old 'genocide' or 'R2P' propaganda tale. Much of the left have shown themselves to be just as gung-ho about getting embroiled in all these US-NATO proxy wars, as even the most right-wing of warmongers.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 20 October 2014 6:46:38 PM
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Rabid anti Americanism is usually a reliable indicator of extreme left wing opinions, my dear Killarney. I find it odd that you are trying to distance yourself from your like minded comrades, especially when you are going one better. The Europeans typically get a free pass from the America haters as so many Euros look down on the USA anyway, and think that they are Euros are oh, so ferking sophisticated. But you even want to include the Euros as the new Imperialists. Why don't you just come out and say that you have a problem with the entire white race? Get it off your chest. But I suppose you won't because that would be "racism', and racism is absolute anathema to you moral posers.

Your tactic then becomes, "always imply, but when challenged, deny". The USA, UK, Canada, France, and now Germany are the new Imperialists. In other words, the most significant and important white western governed societies on earth are the bad guys.

Returning to my original theme, this constant criticism of white west European derived governments and their depiction as the scum of the earth by people like yourself was the primary reason I began to question the whole Socialist anti American philosophy and began thinking objectively. It was obvious to me, that people like yourself have a problem with the white race even though you will never admit it. I am proud that my race was the one which defined the modern world and led the way to showing others the way to freedom, scientific achievement, high technology, prosperity and secular democracy.

I am sorry that there are so many dysfunctional races, ethnicities and cultures who just can't get it right, and who want to blame us for their stupidity and poverty. I am amazed that there are people like yourself who choose to live in the West but who never tire of criticising success and excusing stupidity. But when people like you do that, you have a real problem with me.
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 3:02:55 AM
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Hi Lego,
I love american culture and its people, but I have a strong distrust of its government. I fully applaud its stated values such as freedom, democracy, rule of law. Unfortunately I see that often the US government acts in direct opposition of these values.

Eg freedom - According to the American Bureau of Justice Statistics over 1% of their population is in its criminal justice system.
2 266 800 were in prison and a further 4 818 200 were on probation in 2011! Many are incarcerated for relatively minor victimless crimes such as drug possession or due to 3 strikes laws. They have the largest private prison industry on the globe. The US has 5% of the world's population, but 25% of the world's prison population - weird huh?

Democracy- the 1st Bush election "win" was highly contentious - remember those hanging chads in Florida? (where his brother Jeb was governor) and all those American citizens who were refused the right to vote because their names were incorrectly listed as felons? There were many many more irregularities, but Bush was eventually "selected" president.

(BTW isn't it interesting that for a country based on "merit" that so many recent presidential and gubernatorial aspirants come from so few families? Some would say that sounds more dynastic than democratic -
Just to show I'm not partisan - isn't it weird that Bill and Hillary Clinton have either been president or run for president? And we have had 2 George Bushes as presidents? Plus Jeb Bush as Governor. You would think the chances of this happening by chance would be over 1 million to one in a truly democratic country.

Rule of law: NDAA that was signed by Obama in 2011 gave the government the right to detain US terror SUSPECTs, (not convicted criminals) indefinitely. For the rule of law to exist, we must all be equal before the law, and be able to defend ourselves from allegations. This is no longer the case in the US it has a new classification of persons who are below the law - terror suspects.
Posted by BJelly, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 10:33:05 AM
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For those interested in history of the CIA and US covert operations, including the use of terror, look up Counter Intelligence on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8wQ9_fZ3Mc

On this day of Gough Whitlam's passing (vale),
see 31.51 mins of Counter Intelligence part 1.

Google Christopher Boyce
https://newmatilda.com/2005/03/02/story-christopher-boyce

Google for yourself William Colby, Sir Maurice Oldfield, Nugan Hand Bank to find out what is on the public record - some pretty unbelievable stuff!
Posted by BJelly, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 12:34:01 PM
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Hi BJelly.

The USA is a secular democracy with a political and social system very similar to Australia's. The USA has a lot more criminals than Australia because it has a lot more crime and welfare prone minorities committing serious crimes. Although Australia is doing its best through multiculturalism to catch up. But at least the yanks got the punishment right. They are smart enough to have the death penalty and lock up habitual criminals for life. While in Australia, convicted Griffith mafia hitman James Bazley (strongly suspected of the Donald Mackey murder) got 15 years for murdering Douglas and Isobel Wilson, and knocking off an armoured car payroll. That's five years per murder and the armed robbery for free.

We even had Al Grassby, "the Immigration Minister for the Mafia" who allowed a convicted and deported mafioso to re immigrate into Australia. No wonder the Australian police could not find Robert Trimbole, even though reporters had no problem finding him. Too many senior politicians, police, judiciary and corrective services people got "tips" at the horse races from Trimbole. NSW ended up with it's Chief Stipendary Magistrate (Murrey Farquar) and it's prisons minister ("Buckets" Jackson") doing time in Berrima Jail. A grateful government even put up a statue in Canberra for Grassby so the mafia could put flowers on it.

Democracy. In one election in Australia, Pauline Hanson who got 12% of the primary vote got no seats in parliament while the Greens with 8% got four. If the yanks want to rig their elections they should adopt Australia's preferential system which is wide open to abuse. As a former Labor party member I can tell you that the ALP is controlled by about 60 people who do not give a damn about what ordinary branch members want. That is why the ALP is dying from a lack of branch members. If the ALP had ever listened to their own working class members, we would still have The White Australia Policy, a much lower crime rate, and a welfare system that is not heading for bankruptcy.

continued.
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 3:58:49 PM
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Australia is growing its own political dynasties and even copying the US Presidential electoral advertising styles, even though Americans can actually directly vote for their President, while Australians may not vote for our Prime Minister. My favourite political family is the Sheahan's from Jugiong, NSW. An Irish catholic family moved into Jugiong and had about 18 kids. Those kids got married and had about 18 more, It was a chain reaction every generation. They soon started sending their own family members to parliament because they outnumbered everybody in the district from Crookwell to Holbrook. Holbrook's main street is named "Sheahan Drive."

The yanks get up to a lot of naughty things but exactly who is telling the truth about what the CIA does I simply don't know. But I know that there are people who utterly despise the entire western world and they will do anything to smear it. The so called "stolen generations" was a case in point. A huge lie from start to finish but many people still believe it. They believe it because they want to believe it. There seems to be some sort of psychological condition working here where some people think that criticising your own people, civilisation and culture, is the primary indicator of high intelligence. And nothing is more important to them than their own self esteem and their compulsive need to think that they are morally and intellectually superior to the bogans and the bourgeoisie.
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 21 October 2014 4:07:55 PM
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Lego,
If only the yanks were a little bit naughty! If only they were a secular democracy. They (and we) show all the signs of being a corporatocracy - a government by corporations for corporations. Even the media is run by corporations - we get fed the news they want us to hear.

If the US was a government for the people by the people, it could spend half the money it does on surveillance, the war on drugs, wars of pre-emption, on protecting the health and wellbeing of it's own people through universal health, and education programs, as well as a decent social welfare system and a living wage.

That way they could avoid embarrassments like the UN going into Detroit to try to stop 27,000 residents getting their water turned off. This can only lead to a health crisis. Teachers are warning children not to tell them they have no water as teachers are obligated to report them to social services and they may be taken away.

In another case of WTF?? School police departments across the US have taken advantage of free military surplus gear, stocking up on mine resistant armoured vehicles, grenade launchers and scores of M16 rifles.

As the old saying goes - I long for a day when our schools get all the money they need and the airforce has to run a bake sale to buy a bomber.

ONE LOVE! No human is worth more or less than another. Those who commit criminal acts should be sanctioned or punished, but it must be equitable.

How many Wall St bankers are included in the 1 million+ US citizens who are incarcerated? How many petty thieves and drug addicts will spend decades in gaol due to 3 strikes laws?

We can't turn our eyes away from corruption,injustice, torture and killing.

I would support a royal commission into political corruption - both sides have made some very shady deals. I would also like to see more transparency about political donations and a cap on political donations - maybe even a ban on political donations!
Posted by BJelly, Thursday, 23 October 2014 11:35:21 AM
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Dear Mr BJelly

My last post which responded to your criticism of the USA, was done in such a way to display that Australia and the USA are similar countries with similar problems. We can hardly sneer at the yanks if we are little different ourselves. Multi national corporations may have too much political influence in the West but that does not detract from the fact that our western system of government has seen unprecedented rises in our standard of living in my lifetime.

What is happening now in western countries is a couple of threats that you have not mentioned. The first is, Islamic population proportions are rising through birth rate differentials, immigration and "refugees" to such an extent that Europe may become a Muslim majority continent within 50 years. Think about that and figure out the ramifications. The second is, that the welfare state is unsupportable and many European countries plus the USA are facing bankruptcy. Detroit is a perfect example of both corporate greed combined with unrestricted socialism where the productive got taxed out of existence to support the non productive and the counter productive. Somebody forgot about the Golden Goose.

I totally disagree with your philosophy that one life is worth the same as another. I don't regard the lives of methamphetamine making chemists or violent criminals as being equal to heart surgeons or bushfire fighters. Nor do I agree with your position on drugs. I was once a very light marijuana smoker myself but stopped when I realised that it was affecting my short term memory and ability to concentrate. Unfortunately, a friend of mine never made that connection and is now having serious mental and emotional problems because of this dangerous drug.

Western protestant derived nations are the least corrupt on earth according to the World Corruption Index. That will change as the proportion of North European protestant people reduces in western countries as a result of third world and Asian immigration. The signs in government offices in many languages warning against the practice of trying to bribe government officials says it all.
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 24 October 2014 3:21:42 AM
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Hi Lego,

I think you have the wrong picture of me. I am a middle aged outer-suburban housewife who doesn't use drugs apart from legal ones - a couple of wines with friends every other week,and several cups of coffee a day. I work with disadvantaged kids and I see the horrors that drugs, alcohol, gambling, alienation, depression and lack of hope/opportunity does to people and communities - and it isn't pretty.

I think drugs (including legal ones like alcohol) should be discouraged as they cause so much waste of talent and life. But criminalizing them has proven to be an ineffective way of dealing with the issue. We can find money to lock up addicts but we can't fund rehab units - where is the sense in that?

I see the miracle that there is in every life and I think everyone is precious. I am not a Christian, but I live by many of its values and teachings. I believe in the Christian teaching that we should love the sinner and hate the sin. And the golden rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I have found it is better to judge people and states by their actions not their rhetoric, as words can be hollow. People lie. Shock horror ... politicians, journalists, advertisers, PR spin doctors lie, mislead and deceive. If a state says it values freedom, rule of law, human rights but acts in opposition to these stated values we have a right and even obligation to point out these inconsistencies.

Universal love (one love) for everyone - but that means nothing without justice for all - wrongdoing must be punished but it must be fair and applied to all equally. It is unfair that some of us due to our race, wealth and social status are less likely to be incarcerated than others.
Posted by BJelly, Friday, 24 October 2014 11:21:20 AM
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Regarding your points about increasing numbers of Muslims in our country, I am not afraid of this as I know many Muslims and used to live near a Mosque. The vast majority of Muslims are moderate ordinary folk who want to live a good life.

Muslims have been in Australia since the Afghan camel drivers helped open the outback in the mid1800s. Most cultures assimilate as people intermarry etc. Let our freedom, justice, egalitarianism and prosperity speak for itself. If we need to win the contest of ideas and values, we need to show that we live by the values the West says it espouses.

Just as I speak out against the growing serveillance state we find ourselves in: If everything you do, say or type can be recorded are you really free? If the government reserves the right to snoop on its citizens, but sheilds itself in secrecy, is it still democratic?

I would also speak out against any fundamentalist religious laws including Sharia law. I think stoning, chopping off limbs or beheading people is barbaric.

However, the Islamic law against usury (excessive/any interest on loans) is a good one and one that is in accord with traditional Judeo-Christian values. Our modern banking system depends on usury to funnel wealth to bankers.

I totally agree with your attitude towards fighting corruption. The west is definitely better, but cronyism and the Old Boy's network is alive and well.

EG, What ever happened to the AWB scandal? - The Australian Wheat Board did secret deals with Saddam Hussein. The Royal Commission recommended an AFP investigation. The officer in charge of that investigation said he was promised a promotion if it went no where. When he asked for more funds to conduct the investigation he was fired. No findings were ever made on one of the biggest political scandals in Australia's history. Just another scandal for the memory hole.

The ICAC hearings in NSW have been one wonderful exception, it would be great to have one at the federal level. It is also heartening to have a Royal Commission into child abuse.
Posted by BJelly, Friday, 24 October 2014 1:03:44 PM
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There are liberals in Europe who once passionately claimed that Muslims are harmless but are now starting to feel like Christian Scientists with appendicitis. It is very hard for a liberal to defend a religion which is diametrically opposed to everything a liberal is supposed to stand for. Your opinions are those of a 1970's hippie who pines for the Age of Aquarius, and who can never admit that the times, they are, a changin'. Bankstown used to be just another working class suburb but when the Muslims moved in, the Aussies moved out. This phenomenon is called "white flight" in the USA, and it is only those who take a Three Monkey approach to reality who can not see exactly the same thing happening in Australia.

The reason we are now living in a "surveillance state" is because people like your good self refused to believe that we had a problem with multiculturalism, and with Muslims in particular. But it looks like the "racists" were right all along. You people are incredible. You demand that your country conform to a ideal which has already failed everywhere, and when the very problems that were predicted by your political opponents manifest themselves, you try to blame the people who opposed you all along for trying to remedy them.

if you don't want anti terrorism legislation, don't import people from a religion which advocates terrorism to expand its influence.

If you do not agree with Sharia law, why do you supports Muslims? Muslims MUST believe in Sharia Law OR THEY ARE NOT MUSLIMS. Islam is not just a religion, it is a complete political, legal, religious, and social system who values are diametrically opposed to our own. For God's sake pick up a newspaper and look at what always happens to societies that are composed of different ethnic, religious and cultural groups who have opposing values. Multiculturalism is exactly like Socialism. How many times does it need to fail before educated and supposedly intelligent people like yourself figure out that it is a bad idea?
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 24 October 2014 5:24:05 PM
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Hi Lego,
Islam is not diametrically opposed to our values. It is an Abrahamic religion like Judaism and Christianity. These religions all believe in the same God of the old testament, Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, Christians and Muslims both believe Jesus was the Messiah, Mohammed was more like the prophets of the old testament - no doubt about it. Jesus was definitely more like a 1970s hippy ;)

His teachings about turning the other cheek; love your enemies - do good to those who hurt you, blessed are the peacemakers. Yes, these beliefs will ensure you get your ass kicked. This is why Christianity wasn't suitable as a national religion until Constantine shaped into something more suitable for the purposes of the state.

However, many people say it shows real bravery and fortitude, to live by these ideals, and if you are a real Christian, this life is not of much importance - the next is for all eternity. It's a bit harder for people like me who don't believe in heaven, but people have died for sillier reasons than principles.

Multiculturalists are not responsible for the surveillance state. Islamic terrorists aren't super human. I don't see why we can't use the traditional search powers like search warrants to investigate crimes. A 9/11 style threat was known by the CIA - they tried warning the Bush admin but they weren't listening. After Bush was told US was under attack (after 2nd plane hit the 2nd tower) he stayed in the class for 10 minutes - He had been informed about the first crash before he went into the classroom wtf?? 9/11 was preventable, but it was allowed to happen.

Many Islamic countries do not use Sharia law, or only for some parts of their law. Very few use the full Sharia law - many of them are our allies. Like Iraq (it was a secular state before Gulf War 2), Afhghanistan (guess 10 years of occupation didn't do much for women, but it sure got those poppy fields going again - hmm),Pakistan, Saudi Arabia.
Posted by BJelly, Friday, 24 October 2014 9:49:04 PM
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"Islam is not opposed to our values"? Are you for real, BJelly?

The concept that state and religion should be separate, and that state and religion are inseparable is incompatible.

The concept t hat husbands have a right to beat their wives is incompatible.

The concept that secular Law and Ecclesiastical law are pre eminent over each other is incompatible.

The concept that females are minors, and subject to guardian male control, unable to even leave the house, or enter into any contract, is incompatible to contemporary western concepts of female equality.

The concept that apostates and blasphemers should be murdered is incompatible to western liberal thought.

The concept that women should have no say in whom they marry, and that a marriage can occur not requiring the consent of the woman, is incompatible to western ideals

The concept that homosexuality should be a capitol offence, is incompatible with western concepts of tolerance towards homosexuals.

The concept that allegations of rape must be validated by four male witnesses of Islamic faith is incompatible with western evidentiary jurisprudence.

The Muslim concept that a raped woman should be punished is incompatible to western ideas.

The Muslim concept a man may marry outside of his faith, but that a woman may not, is incompatible to western values.

The Muslim concept that alcohol consumption should be proscribed is incompatible with western traditions.

The concept that a man may divorce a woman, simply by reciting 'I divorce thee", three times, but does not give equivalence to women, is incompatible to western concepts of divorce.

The Muslim concept that males are filled with "uncontrollable lusts" and that women, by their behaviour and dress are responsible for keeping these lusts contained, is incompatible with western concepts, that men are responsible for controlling their own sex drive.

The contemporary Muslim concept of marrying first cousins to keep property in the family is incompatible to sensible genetic hygiene as practiced in the west.

The concept that it is right and valid for a religion to spread by military force is incompatible to contemporary western thought.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 25 October 2014 5:56:02 AM
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Continued. To BJelly.

Addressing the rest of your post.

The Christian and Muslim faiths are fundamentally different in their scriptural teachings. One was started by a pacifist, and the other by a warlord who wanted to make his warriors invincible in battle. Christianity is fundamentally a pacifist religion and it's fundamentalists, like the Amish, the Mennonites and the Quakers are pacifists. Any Christian who holds violent and extremist views can be called "unchristian." Islam is fundamentally a violent religion and it's fundamentalists are (unsurprisingly) extremely violent.

Most Christians reject total pacifism as inappropriate to self preservation, but they still cherish the ideal of advocating non violence and tolerence. Most Muslims do not want to commit violence in Allah's name, but they can not bring themselves to criticise the fundamentalist Muslims who do exactly what Allah tells them to do. Muslims believe that the Koran is the literal word of God and God has told the Muslims that those who use force to expand Islam are the very finest Muslims there are.

Multiculturalists are responsible for the growing violence in Australian society which is seeing ever more repressive laws being implemeted for our own protection, and our police beginning to look like stormtroopers. NSW Police may now randomly stop and search cars and that was brought about by the penchant for Vietnamese drug traffickers to use motor vehicles to deliver drugs to other states. Our terrorism laws are in response to Islamic terrorism that is manifesting itself within our own country. If we had kept Muslims and other crime and welfare prone minorities out of our country, we would never have had the need to make our laws more restrictive.

What we are seeing today is a clash of civilisations. The Muslim world is aghast that their civilisation is doing so badly against the west and the Asians. But instead of doing a Kamal Attaturk and figuring out that pure Islam is an impediment to prosperity and social advancement, the Muslims think THEY ARE NOT MUSLIM ENOUGH. That is why they are turning into violent fundamentalists. They want Allah's blessings.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 25 October 2014 6:26:08 AM
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LEGO +++, BJelly ---
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 25 October 2014 7:24:26 AM
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Hi Lego,

I'm not sure why your replies are getting more shrill.

You say a Muslim majority in Australia = Sharia law.
I say the evidence doesn't support this.

Many Islamic majority states have a civil law system like ours.
eg Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, Uzbekistan, Tunisia, Mozambique and as you mentioned Turkey - there are more, but I think you can see that your hypothesis is false. There are examples of Muslim majority nations with full Sharia law, but stunningly they are often the allies of the West - like Saudi Arabia.

How can it be a real clash of civilizations when the most fundamentalist Islamic countries are the ones which have the closest ties to the USA and its allies? hmm - doesn't make any sense does it?

I would make the analogy that the threat of a Muslim takeover of our country is like a termite invasion - it might possibly happen over decades- but it is a long term potential problem.

However, the danger of the surveillance state is more like a fire - it is an emergency that is happening now. Senator Brandis is puting few if any sunset clauses into his legislation. The government is giving itself so many powers and limiting press and individual's free speech - it is turning us into a turn-key totalitarian state.

We can deal with law breakers with laws that allow investigation of suspects - we should not ALL be treated as potential criminals which these terror laws do. NO ONE has died from terrorism in Australia in the last 30 or 40 years. However, on average one woman is killed every week in Australia - why is not more done to stop this? The threat of terror is just an excuse to take away our freedoms.

As Goering said: "the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Posted by BJelly, Monday, 27 October 2014 5:04:05 PM
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Almost all Muslim nations are totalitarian, and in those totalitarian Muslim nations the unelected leaders are in a competition with the Mullahs over who has paramount control. It is very similar to situation which existed in the middle ages between western kings and the church. Many Muslim dictators (like Saddam Hussein) knew that it would be very bad for their countries to let the mullahs control the law system through Sharia and so they have instigated law systems over which the dictator had complete control.

The Islamic world is now experiencing a Reformation. But it is completely different to the Christian Reformation. Christianity went back to it's original scriptures in which it's founder preached peace, love, and tolerance. The Muslims are going back to their original scriptures which teach violence, intolerance and the obligation for Muslims to support those who will use violence to take over the world for Islam.

Saudi Arabia is a fundamentalist Muslim nation in which it's own school books proclaim "all non Muslims are your enemies." But they are an important Muslim nation because of their oil and because they own the most holy sites in Islam, which makes them fair game for any Muslim nation with notions of grandeur. The Saudis need the yanks to defend them even though they despise them. The Saudis know that Islam must take over the world, so they play the game different to ISIS. They support Muslim immigration into western nations and put up the money to build mosques.

I am amazed that after the terrorist incidents in Canada, Britain, the USA, Madrid, and Melbourne that you are still claiming that there is no problem and we do not need increased security. I suppose that when your multicultural utopia is self evidently coming apart, exactly as predicted by the "racists", you need to blame everybody but yourselves for what is happening.

I am staggered that you think that the Islamisation of European nations is a problem for the future, so why worry now? The Muslims and the Chinese who think ahead should give you an award.
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 3:06:57 AM
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"Almost all Muslim nations are totalitarian",
If USA and allies so concerned about totalitarianism why did CIA help depose an elected leader in Iran and install the Shah in 1979?

I am not saying there is no risk with Islamic fundamentalism, just that the risk of terror is relatively low. We lose far more people to car crashes, work related injuries and domestic violence. We have not lost one life in the last 30 odd years to terror in Australia - and the last one may have been due to a botched ASIO plan - intended to frighten, but unfortunately 2 men died.

Indeed the purpose of terrorism is to scare us. We should not panic, we need to deal with the threat in a calm and measured way. We should not allow our leaders to use our fear as a pretext for removing freedoms that do not need to be lost.

I have confidence in our resilience - our strength as a people and nation. Muslim fundamentalists aren't boogey men, they are mortal people who can be investigated and charged under normal criminal laws, we don't need a security state on steroids to defeat them - it is like killing an ant with a hammer - complete overkill.

If you are frightened they will take over, you should be very concerned that we would be giving any totalitarian government the very tools that they need to control the population - mass snooping without a warrant, lack of press freedom, severe prison sentences for disclosure of SIOs,even ones that are in the national interest, no oversight - all that is needed is the ok from the minister in charge - what are we turning into? It certainly doesn't look like a democracy.
Posted by BJelly, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 8:13:38 AM
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For the same reason why the USA did nothing about the Egyptian Army deposing the democratically elected government of Egypt that was militant Islam, and which had no intention of ever holding another election. For the same reason why the USA supported the Chilean middle classes who deposed the incredibly incompetent but democratically elected socialist government of Chile which "nationalised" (a euphemism for "steal") US owned industrial assets in Chile. The Iranian government "nationalised" the British and American oil refineries and oilfields in Iran. Theft is still theft, even when an incompetent socialist/Islamic government does it democratically. Hitler was democratically elected and wildly popular in Germany, but we still went to war with him.

Your premise, is, that Tony Abbot is some sort of secret totalitarian who wants to create a police state in Australia and is using Muslim terrorism as an excuse to implement repressive laws.

Do you know how silly you sound? Are you for real? Most people support Abbot's laws because they know that you are wrong. Terrorists are not criminals and they can not be combated with everyday criminal laws. You can't wait until a suicide bomber sets of a bomb in a bus, a train, or an airliner and then arrest him. Every western police force is asking it's government for increased powers to combat Muslim terrorism, and is getting them because western politicians know that the police are right. Muslim terrorists do not care if they die or get caught. The question that you refuse to consider is how we could have avoided this in the first place by simply keeping Muslims right out of our society?

But then you would have to question your commitment to the idea that everyone is equal, and that is too much to ask. Better for you to keep coming up with stupid conspiracy theories than focus on an unpleasant truth that you studiously avert your eyes from. It is just so interesting the degree to which ideologues can blot out everyday reality in order to keep the faith with their utopian ideology
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 4:23:11 PM
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Hitler was not elected. He was appointed interim chancellor in 1933. A week before fresh elections were to be held, the Reichstag building burnt down, and bans were placed on socialists and communists contesting the next election. Even then the Nazi party had to form a coalition - he promised not to abuse his powers,but then reneged and only then did he become Fuhrer.

Sure Chile under Pinochet re-privatised many companies that Allende had nationalised, but his rule also saw thousands of people killed, tortured or disappeared in order to ensure this "theft" could be reversed. He used terror to move wealth from Chile and its people, so it could return to US corporations and local elites. The poor and middle classes did not enjoy the Chile's economic miracle. His legacy continues today. Chile has the greatest wealth disparity of any OECD nation. It is wealthy but many people live in poverty.

I have not said Abbott is a secret totalitarian. But I would say he has an authoritarian style. For eg the militarisation of the asylum seeker issue and the operational secrecy. The resumption of Knights and Dames without cabinet consultation. The news today that he is increasing the tax on petrol without parliamentary approval, and after saying no new taxes.

I'm suggesting that Abbott and Brandis are leaving Australia as a Totalitarian turn-key state. One where our security forces have criminal immunity, almost no independent oversight, less press freedom to report wrongdoing by security forces, less freedom for ordinary citizens to talk about such issues, mass internet snooping of non-terror suspects. Plus the AFP will be able to impersonate people and search a suspect's home but does not need to inform suspects for up to 18 mths.

If you can't imagine what could go wrong with such powers I suggest you look up the cases of the Guildford four and Maguire seven to find out what can go wrong - innocent people, including children, were framed and imprisoned in Britain in the 1970s. The movie 'In the Name of the Father' is based on the Guildford 4.
Posted by BJelly, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 11:48:20 PM
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Communists such as Allende were not in the habit of handing back power through elections once they had got there by any means. Every socialist totalitarian country in the world at the time was torturing and killing those who opposed its continued rule, the difference being that the capitalist totalitarian societies were generally much more successful economically than the socialist ones. and they slipped more easily into democracy when they became stable. Look at South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, The Philippines, and Chile, then compare them to North Korea, Cuba, and every socialist African country you can name. . You could say that Rhodesia was once a totalitarian state, but it was also the bread basket of Africa. Now it's a black run socialist nightmare and they are all starving to death.

You have not directly stated that Abbot is trying to turn Australia into a totalitarian state but you keep implying it. And it is total nonsense. All of the bad things you have stated about having a secret police force with wide ranging powers is perfectly true. What you failed to mention is that it was people like you with your insistence on importing groups of people into this country which are a direct threat to the peace and stability of our country which made it necessary.

I have heard about the "Guildford Four" but I will not watch the movie "In the name of the father" because I do not trust the entertainment media to tell the truth about anything. The Australian movie "Rabbit Proof Fence" was introduced to audiences as a "true story" and it presented the Australian people as Nazis who "stole" aboriginal children to commit "genocide" on them.

Ireland should be a part of Britain. It isn't, because religious and cultural differences can tear apart any society and cause serious social strife, terrorism, and civil war. Australia is an island of peace because we were once one nation, with one language and one primary culture. If Napoleon was alive today, he would probably be congratulating you multiculturalists for creating for him a "splendid new battlefield."
Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 2:32:20 AM
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First of all, Allende was not a communist, he was a socialist.

He was a real hard ass - his government instigated programs such as free milk in schools and for nursing mothers, scholarships for the Indigenous population, fixed bread prices, eliminated income taxes for those on modest incomes, increased employment by boosting public works in housing and public transport, distributed free food to the needy, raised the minimum wage - I can see why he was voted out - oh that's right he wasn't. His government was toppled by a CIA backed coup de'tat which installed a military Junta.

The US was anti Allende, but supported a military dictator like Pinochet for nearly 20 years - that doesn't match up with their talk about supporting democracy, freedom and human rights - that's a bit strange.

Pinochet's social legacy includes:2,000 dead/disappeared
30,000 arrested, many tortured
200,000 went into political exile
100,000 (1% of Chile's population!) or so emigrated due to the economic crises that occurred after the Coup when the Milton Freidman's Chicago School boys implemented their free market ideology on Chile's economy - this was how successful that "miracle" was.

I'm pretty sure US corporations and Chilean elites didn't lose too much sleep over the thousands who were tortured, and killed so they could get rich from Chile's natural resources. Who really stole from whom? When a country is so wealthy in natural resources, but the people are so poor, it is a fair question. In 1988, under Pinochet, a whopping 48% lived below the poverty line.
Posted by BJelly, Wednesday, 29 October 2014 4:54:52 PM
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To BJelly (singular name, are you implying something about yourself?)

A "socialist" is just a communist without a gun.

Of course communists/socialists/Marxists make themselves popular with the poor by claiming that they are going to give them lots of money. But socialism does not work. It does not work because (to paraphrase Margaret Thatcher) "sooner or later they run out of other people's money to spend." Allende was a communist who realised that he could win power through elections instead of the traditional communist method of armed force. He nationalised multinational companies, tried to nationalise privately owned trucks, and collectivised agriculture. The result was that the owner/ driver truckies went on strike, the economy became bankrupt, and the people started starving to death. The situation in Chile became catastrophic very quickly.

Of course the USA helped the sensible people of Chile to overthrow this socialist/ communist/ marxist incompetent. If Allende had just nationalised Chilean owned industries, and if the situation in Chile had not been so critical, the yanks would probably have done what they did with Whitlam, waited until the fool got hurled from office in the next election by his own angry people. If another election had ever eventuated, that is. Don't forget, communist governments were not in the habit of holding elections anyway, and Allende would probably have gone down the path to totalitarianism like every other communist before him.

I am sure that the US corporations did not lose any sleep over the Chilean communists (who wanted to steal their property) and who were tortured and murdered by the sensible people of Chile who were incensed by their stupidity. Anymore than I am losing any sleep over the deaths of ISIS fighters.

Perhaps those 48% of Catholic Chileans who lived below the poverty line could have ignored their priests, used contraceptives, and stopped breeding like flies? And I'll bet that those 100,000 Chileans who immigrated out of Chile all headed for the USA. If not, I'll bet they did not head to Cuba or any other socialist paradise.
Posted by LEGO, Thursday, 30 October 2014 2:58:03 PM
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Hi Lego,

For 17 years, thousands of people in Chile were imprisoned, terrorized, tortured and killed so that the market could be free.

They included young children, pregnant women, students, doctors, musicians, indigenous people, unionists etc.

I'm really having difficulty believing you mean what you wrote when you say
"I am sure that the US corporations did not lose any sleep over the Chilean communists (who wanted to steal their property) and who were tortured and murdered by the sensible people of Chile who were incensed by their stupidity."

It kind of sounds like you feel that way too. I hope I am mistaken.

I guess my big question to you is: Is it really ok to kill leftists? Or do you just sympathize with those who do?

In case you were curious about any of those people who were tortured and/or killed by the Pinochet regime, here's a bit of info.

Victor Jara was a well known folk singer who was one of many people killed in a soccer stadium soon after the coup. He played guitar - his torturers crushed his hands with their rifle buts, they beat him and shot him in the head while playing Russian roulette. His body was thrown onto a street.
Here's some of his music - it is beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdPpXxZviJ4

Here's some testimony of people tortured by Pinochet's regime. Some of the things they did to people were really sick.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/chile-11-september-1973-pinochet-regime-torture-505297
Posted by BJelly, Saturday, 1 November 2014 12:59:34 AM
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Hi BJelly

For most of last century, tens of millions of people were murdered by communists like Allende in order to promote an economic system which never worked, and which produced a political system that was the most efficient form of totalitarianism ever invented. The tens of millions who were either murdered or staved to death, included "young children, pregnant women, students, doctors, musicians, indigenous people, unionists etc." They also composed another type of victim. Well meaning people of zeal like yourself who either supported, or even led the communists, who then turned on them and lined them up in front of the pits.

If a group of people wanted to steal your property, I presume that you would be very hostile towards them. In 1970, the USA had around $1 billion in investments in Chile which Allende "nationalised." It is hardly surprising that the USA backed those Chileans who were also the victims of communist theft and incompetence, and who intended return Chile to a free market economy. You know the free market economy, don't you BJelly? That is the economic system which even Russia and China have largely adopted because even they realise that Socialism was nuts. The yanks were right all along.

The only good thing I can say about Socialism was that it forced the capitalists to realise that they had to give the working class a better deal, or they would support a crazy economic system like socialism, that did not work at all for anybody except those at the top of the communist monarchy.

Yet here we are with socialism on the ropes and people like yourself are still trying to pretend that socialism had all the answers, and that Allende was a really nice guy who gave expectant mother's milk, and who made the legal price of bread very low (resulting in bread shortages) If Chile had ended up like Cuba, North Korea and Venuzuela, you would still be averting your eyes, making excuses for socialist stupidity, and blaming the yanks for everything
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 1 November 2014 5:42:42 AM
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LEGO,

"Ireland should be a part of Britain. It isn't, because religious and cultural differences can tear apart any society and cause serious social strife, terrorism, and civil war. Ireland should be a part of Britain. It isn't, because religious and cultural differences can tear apart any society and cause serious social strife, terrorism, and civil war. Australia is an island of peace because we were once one nation, with one language and one primary culture. If Napoleon was alive today, he would probably be congratulating you multiculturalists for creating for him a "splendid new battlefield."f Napoleon was alive today, he would probably be congratulating you multiculturalists for creating for him a "splendid new battlefield."

Ireland should not be part of Britain because Britain is an island and Ireland is an island and they are two separate geological entities.
Ireland is however part of the British Isles, which is a geological description not a political one.
Religious and cultural differences can indeed tear apart any society apart and it was the differences imposed on Irish society by the invaders from England that caused Ireland's English Problem.

" Australia is [Ireland was] an island of peace because we were [it was] once one nation, with one language and one primary culture. "
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 1 November 2014 7:03:08 AM
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to Mise.

Tasmania should therefore be a separate country, as it is not part of mainland Australia. As a matter of fact, mainlanders would love for Tasmania to be a separate country, so that the Tasmanians can learn to live with their Green/ anti business religion and decay into economic obscurity without the mainlanders subsidising their green delusions.

Britain in 800-1000 AD was composed of about 30 kingdoms, and in the north, what we now call Scotland was composed of a myriad of fiefdoms based around clans. What we now call France was divided into numerous provinces, and Germany was so divided into "principalities" that it did not become "a country" until the 19th Century. History recounts how larger states have always forcibly incorporated smaller states into their territory, usually for the good of all. Sometimes it was even done by Federation, with all parties agreeing that it was for the common good. Examples of that phenomenon are the federations of Australia, Canada, the USA, and the union of Britain and Scotland. In those examples, cultural differences were so small that a general agreement as to what constituted correct behaviour was easy to agree upon.

Had larger states not swallowed up smaller states, the earth today would still be in the tribal state consisting of a million tribes. It was those states which grew larger more quickly, either through agreement or military force, which are the primary modern states today. And they still admire the men who had vision enough to convince or coerce smaller and unviable states to become larger and more efficient nations. Men like Cromwell, Talleyrand, Jefferson, Parkes, and Bismark.

Ireland should be a part of Britain. If it was still a part of Britain, Irish men would not have to go to Britain to find jobs, and Irish women would not have to go to Britain to get their abortions.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 2 November 2014 6:59:39 AM
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LEGO,

You are so far out of touch that it is laughable,

"Ireland should be a part of Britain. If it was still a part of Britain, Irish men would not have to go to Britain to find jobs, and Irish women would not have to go to Britain to get their abortions."

Ireland is a part of the European Union and no one from Ireland really needs to visit Britain at all.
My Irish Passport allows me free entry into Europe, including Britain, it's much more useful than my Australian Passport, because (unlike the Irish) Australians are aliens in the UK.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 2 November 2014 8:17:41 AM
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