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IS: illusion versus reality : Comments
By Alon Ben-Meir, published 22/9/2014The rise of many jihadist groups can be traced several decades back to the reigns of corrupt and ruthless Arab dictators who grossly violated human rights, deprived their citizens of social justice, and violently suppressed any opposition with impunity.
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Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 22 September 2014 10:41:30 AM
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[There are no real winners in war, just survivors!]
Rusty, this is the most sensible thing you've ever said but keep in mind that, in a nuclear war, there will be no survivors. And which warmongering nation has the most nukes? You guessed it. America! Posted by David G, Monday, 22 September 2014 11:06:17 AM
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I'm wondering why the author - Dr. Alon Ben-Meir's - blanket prescription for the Middle East doesn't mention Israel as part of the Muslim youth radicalising problem?
Where "Sustainable development projects will not only galvanize local resources, but allow for the development of ownership and a sense of empowerment that builds a social and economic structure from the bottom up." This sounds like the military occupation-aid mix that has already proven a failure in Afghanistan. Do Muslim youth in oil rich Iraq need $Billions in Western aid money to grow dates? Rather Iraq is a gun culture. Dr. Alon Ben-Meir's suggestion that there be massive Western bombing of Syria seems like Israeli foreign policy which hasn't worked - given Israel has bombed key Syrian targets. Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 22 September 2014 12:21:04 PM
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More Idealistic day-dreams, as if Islam and it's problems can be "cured" by Western military intervention.
Forget it, the Islamic world has more than enough money to fund economic development itself, why must we pay for it? Islam has been battling itself since the year dot, let's just leave them to it, it's NOT our fight, and every attempt to get involved has only lead to death and suffering of ever greater numbers of "innocent" civilians, let alone those of we relatively civilised nations. Cut off all connection, suffer the fuel shortages until we get other sources online, blockade their ports and air services, and let them wipe each other out, we'll all be better off without them, we can go in and pick up the pieces when they've satisfied their blood-lust and/or sorted out their goddery. Any Muslims that want to go and join the fight, let them, but they surrender their Western citizenship in doing so, no returns, EVER. Works for me "War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left.." Posted by G'dayBruce, Monday, 22 September 2014 12:50:19 PM
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David G,
That depends which nuclear weapons are used and by who? For example, suppose the west just had a bellyful of the endless war of attrition in the Middle East; and entered into a secret back door deal with Putin, to share the spoils? And then exploded one, two or three neutron bombs at considerable altitude, to take out friend and foe alike? The advantage, if there is one, this weapon, which America apparently has, would only destroy organic life, with a massively huge burst of highly lethal radiation, even that hiding in bunkers many metres underground; leaving all the infrastructure largely intact, and usable again in around 6 months? Meaning the US and Russia, could avoid an assured war of mutual destruction; share all the oil and a world where most of the warring miscreants were removed. Now please don't follow your usual custom of associating knowledge of science, with avocation of its use! Albeit, it would save millions in war expenses, and neither the US nor Russia need put boots on hallowed ground, just to stop apparently unstoppable genocide. Just hurry it along! Well, if that's what you truly want Isil? And there's a probable/possible scenario in some war-rooms somewhere, describing that very (rather you than us) scenario, as a last resort outrage? Owning weapons doesn't automatically mean you would use them? But I suspect, you by your own words, or expectations of others, might? I find it passing strange that you always label the US as warmongers; but seem to be always looking the other way, when Isil, with plenty of foreign boots on hallowed ground, sets out on a patently murderous mission to kill/spill the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents! And only prevented by US airstrikes! Your real beef with the US? Rhrosty. Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 22 September 2014 1:11:08 PM
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When we consider ISIS & similar fanatical groups there are a few things
to take into account. According to the Koran and or Hadite (spelling) and land once occupied by moslems ramains moslem land forever. This means Jerusalem is moslem land even though it was previously occupied by the Jews. The South Eastern part of Austria and Hungary, Rumania etc are moslem lands. All of Spain is moslem land. All of the Balkans is moslem land. Most of India is moslem land. They firmly believe this and their hatred of the Jews shows why a negotiated solution in the middle east is impossible. Every few hundred years someone has to slap them down. It goes on and on, there is no end to it. Posted by Bazz, Monday, 22 September 2014 2:42:59 PM
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"I find it passing strange that you always label the US as warmongers; but seem to be always looking the other way, when Isil, with plenty of foreign boots on hallowed ground, sets out on a patently murderous mission to kill/spill the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents!" says Rusty.
The U.S. since its inception has killed tens of millions of people. Isil, by contrast, has killed perhaps...say 100,000 yet you point the finger at Isil and ignore the genocide and killing carried out by the U.S. (which started with the Native Indians and has continued ever since). Do you understand the meaning of the word: equivalence? The U.S. has killed more people than any other nation in the history of the world. Posted by David G, Monday, 22 September 2014 2:55:30 PM
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'To help defeat Islamic extremism, we must condition our future support to any of the Arab states affected by this scourge and insist that they commit to long–term and substantial socioeconomic and political programs.'
'Millions of dispossessed, despairing, and despondent Arab youth are left with no place to go, no hope, and no future. ' no one could ever give more support to young Arabs than Australia has through immigration. Guess what! Many still hate us and support Isis and Hamas. A number of the jihadist of 9/11 are university trained (again paid for by the West). Me thinks that the West is still in denial re Islam. Most muslims are decent people until they take the Koran literally. And that is the way it was intended by Mohammed to be taken. Posted by runner, Monday, 22 September 2014 2:59:17 PM
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"The rise of many jihadist groups can be traced several decades back to the reigns of corrupt and ruthless Arab dictators who grossly violated human rights, deprived their citizens of social justice, and violently suppressed any opposition with impunity."
Is the author referring to Saudi Arabia which is considered to be an ally of the West? This is a state that is a monarchy, not a democracy, it does not allow women to drive cars, this is the state that beheads people for sorcery and whose legal system is based on Sharia, this state is also well known for funding Wahhabism to other countries. It was a shame Alon didn't name the Arab dictators he was referring to. It certainly wasn't Saddam Hussein or Muammar Gaddafi - 2 recent examples of regime change that have been backed by the West. These men were both horrific dictators, and I am not sad that they are gone. However, it must be said they both headed relatively stable, secular states. They were no friend of Islamic Fundamentalists. Iraq and Libya have now become failed states which are over-run by Islamic fundamentalists which have served to destabilize the whole Middle East. Both Robin Cook, a former British Foreign Secretary (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/08/july7.development)and Hillary Clinton former US Secretary of State(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd0fLAbV1cA) have both stated that Al Qaeda was funded by the USA/CIA in order to defeat the Russians in Afghanistan. IS is an illusion - as far as I can see, we are fighting forces that the USA and Saudi Arabia are responsible for creating - I'm not sure why they/we are doing this, but I'm sure those who are knowledgeable about history and geopolitics would have some very interesting ideas. Posted by BJelly, Monday, 22 September 2014 3:31:32 PM
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David G.
As usual you omit the war crimes of Germany, Japan. And those of post war Russia; 25 million murdered or disappeared, when controlled by a mass murdering Stalin! And yes, not everything was righteous, as Indian nations were swallowed by European Emigration. That's history and not an excuse of others far away, for their own even worse and vastly more excessive extremes; which incorporates the millions barbarously brutalized and or killed by the largely Arab controlled slave trade! Also omitted is those Americans killed in defense of ourselves, when the US, sacrificed hundreds of thousands, hurling back the Japanese aggressor. Many US servicemen confessed to aiming high, to avoid taking life. But after seeing the horror of the Nazi death camps, and the fact that ending that barbarity, made the action then engaged in righteous, started aiming for the chest or head kill zones. And as bad as the Nazi animal was, he pales into virtual insignificance besides the excesses of Isil Having said that, I cannot and will not apologize for the excesses of early settlers, and ask, how would you like to reconcile those activities? Perhaps by incarcerating or making war on their "white Anglo/Celtic" descendants, who weren't even born then? And then you go on to waffle on about too little love! Moreover, there is simply no way, any of these straw man hypocritical arguments, detract in any way, from the topic under examination! Namely, the responsibility of inhuman/extreme Arab dictators, for the Jihadist mindsets of far too many alleged Islamist, who in truth, represent anything else other than peace loving Islam! Rhrosty. Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 22 September 2014 3:36:26 PM
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David G,
Please reference one American genocide, just one. Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 22 September 2014 9:20:39 PM
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No, no, no! This is not about about corrupt dictators, dispossessed youth, or even the lack of opportunities; this is about an ideology that provides an answer – howbeit the wrong one – to many Muslims and their problems. Raising billions of dollars, military intervention or supporting moderate Islamic groups will not make any long-term difference.
What is happening is a return to the pure, aggressive, brutal Islam of Mohammed. Say what you want about ISIS/ISIL/IS, but the fact is that it is very Islamic, both in theory and deed, history and culture. This is why the Western coalition and its allies, and key Muslim states with stakes in this game (Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Syria, etc.) are doomed to failure. Both groups fail to recognize and confront the ideology that drives the jihadists. Western states pretend that Islam has nothing to do with the conflict (“ISIS is not Islamic”) and Muslim states cannot convince the so-called despondent youth because ISIS has the Quran on its side. Actually, thanks to Saudi Arabia and other Islamist groups, ISIS is nothing but Islam’s fundamentalist chickens coming home to roost. Jihadists don’t even need radical Imams; Muslims can figure it out themselves from the hate and violence in the Quran, if they take their religion seriously. Note that Mohammed, by his wars, caused the death of more fellow Muslims than any infidels. So it was then, so it is now. It is Quran 9:111, alive, well and in action. Not only that, the stupid decision to let millions of Muslims into the West has guaranteed a daunting fifth-column that will ensure a steady flow of recruits so we can share the bloody resurgence of the pure Islam. Aint we lucky! As to Obama, his half-hearted actions may degrade ISIS for a while (until November’s elections, probably), but in the end neither air attacks nor ground troops will make a difference because they strike only the symptom, not the cause. Whatever ISIS’ faults may be, it is -- unlike leaders in the West -- honest about Islam, its teachings, theory and practice. We are doomed. Posted by kactuz, Tuesday, 23 September 2014 9:31:04 AM
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As an ex-pat American I used to fear Ronald Reagan would start a nuclear war. In fact I was so concerned that when he was re-elected I moved to New Zealand which had just declared its Nuclear Free stance. NZ seemed like the most sane place on the planet and being in the Southern Hemisphere, relatively safe from the effects of a nuclear in the Northern Hemisphere. I even felt at the time the USA was turning into a Police State... I hated it's policies, but not the people.
After living in NZ for a short time I realised much of my fear was the result of the way America uses the media to keep everyone to some extent in a state of fear all the time. Its a control mechanism. I am not as idealistic as I was in my youth and I've come to understand there are times drastic actions are necessary. I've also come to appreciate the sacrifices so many men have made to preserve the freedom and way of life most of us wouldn't trade. But as time passed my fear abated and I began to see the big picture more clearly. All the major governments are essentially control by the super rich. The rich rule and own the world. The rich have no intention of destroying it, their greed will prevent a full out nuclear war from happening, they are all in the same club. I don't consider myself racist by any stretch of imagination but I am worried about Muslim expansion through the Western Countries and what the long term negative effects are likely to be. The European experience offers a prime example. For me ISIS presents one of those times drastic action is justified and thank my lucky stars the USA is helping the world get rid of this evil force. Posted by ConservativeHippie, Tuesday, 23 September 2014 6:23:38 PM
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Conservative Hippy,
I think your opinion that the news media is controlled by the government to keep everyone in fear is misplaced. It is the competition inside the media that is the problem. They have hyped everything up to attract the viewer, show him the latest fearful news, blah blah blah. In fact I think governments are pretty hopeless in getting people to react the way they would like. They are normally incompetent. I suspect you need to have a different flavour of cynicism. Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 12:16:18 AM
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Bazz - I didn't mean to suggest the media is controlled by the government, I think its more of a manipulation. For instance going back to just after the 9/11 attacks, just about every 3 or 4 months there would be a press release of a suspected new terror plot to blow up a major bridge, or gas a subway, or attack a nuclear plant, etc. A reiteration that the terrorism potential is ever present... sometimes followed by another restriction of freedom.
Americans also live with the constant fear (and real possibility) that they might be in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up an innocent shooting victim. In Los Angeles the Police are very intimidating toward everyone. The police are not friendly in the least and so if you are in traffic and a cop car is behind you, you feel nervous, even though you aren't doing anything wrong. The dumbing down of the public through a poor education system is also a contributing factor. Violent/mindless movies and video games are desensitising young people. I'm not talking 'conspiracy' but overall the net result is a lingering worry someone is out to get you, so to speak. It's a weird mindset that on one level goes completely unnoticed yet is influencing everyone's daily life. Well, that's my experience and take on American life. Posted by ConservativeHippie, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 6:13:03 AM
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Conservative Hippie, your comments about the U.S. are pertinent and should be closely read by the myriad American apologists who inhabit the comment sections of OLO.
Most of them know nothing about the U.S. but they blather on as if they did. Posted by David G, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 8:33:43 AM
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Most Christians are decent folk too, until they take their particular "interpretation" of the Holy Bible, Scriptures, Book of Mormon, New World Translations, King James Version, etc literally... & then expect everyone else to subscribe to their thinking.
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 11:07:39 AM
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Yes Albie but they don't turn round and offer you the three choices;
Convert to theirs, pay the Jizaz tax or death and the wife and children into slavery ! Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 1:27:36 PM
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'Whatever ISIS’ faults may be, it is -- unlike leaders in the West -- honest about Islam, its teachings, theory and practice. We are doomed. '
no kactuz, everything you write about Islam is true. Your last statement is wrong. Read the end of the book that does not lie. Posted by runner, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 2:56:57 PM
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Runner, We are not doomed? Is that what you mean? I guess the issue is the meaning of "doomed", then.
Our leaders are unable or unwilling to recognize that Islamic values are not those of the West, and contact with Muslims and Islam will only lead to misfortune and destruction, as we have seen even today in the attack on two officers. It will get worse. I see no hope that our leaders - any of them in any country - recognize the Islamist threat. They have permitted millions of Muslims to come without regard to the consequences. Muslims come to live among us and they bring Mohammed, Allah, hate and death with them. They leave Islamic societies in turmoil and bring their turmoil with them. What can one expect from people that consider Mohammed to be a great moral example except attacks and murder. Since Mohammad is recorded as saying "I am made victorious with terror" and no Muslim will condemn this, the consequences should be very clear. We are surrounded by Chamberlains and not a Churchill in sight. We are doomed to struggle, to suffer, to die. It is just a matter of time. Muslims will not, in numbers, live in peace with us horrible, evil infidels. Quran 9:111 Posted by kactuz, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 4:35:39 PM
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Note that the Islamic Council in Victoria is refusing to make a comment on the actions of the dimwit* Muslim who knifed the two policemen and was shot dead in the process.
He wants more evidence; two men with multiple stab wounds is not enough? * Anyone who initiates a fight, armed with a knife, against two policemen armed with pistols is a dimwit. Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 6:44:45 PM
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Full with must and insist demands.
Which ought to be replaced with should and ought.
The Author is, I believe, just another Authoritarian, which he claims were central to the rise and rise of Jihadism in the Middle east.
And therefore just another part of the problem, rather than any part of the solution!
Which simply has to start with education pieces, and to give credit, very much like this one, which sheets home the blame where it belongs, rather than the so-called decadent west.
As I look around me, and could choose to live anywhere, it simply has to be right here, and better than all the rest.
My heart weeps for the oppressed and downtrodden, many who are still seeing their quite massive Middle Eastern wealth squandered on weapons of war, and those purchases made seemingly legitimate? By much sabre rattling and continually stirred regional conflict.
[There are no real winners in war, just survivors!]
Conflict and sacrifice, which at the end of the day, serves just a few rich and powerful oligarchs/control freaks.
And lets end the other blame game and understand, inherently good men cannot be bought!
Let the Imams stop preaching their messages of hate and misplaced blame, and instead, reject all that disingenuous mendacity, in favor of the truth.
And as we know, it's the truth that will set them all free; and that is why the truth is resisted and the speakers/promulgators of it, officially maligned, marginalized; and or, disappeared! Da?
Simply put, if the gaze and the focus is maintained on the "sinful" west!
The real problems far closer to home, will continue to be ignored! Da?
And that good sir is the only must not to insist on, and central to all that is wrong in the Middle East, and other parts of a hugely radicalized Muslim world!
Rhrosty.