'... he did not wince from that mission. Irrespective of the pleadings and requests made to him by many.'

Like to back up the assertion in the second half of that statement Jonathan?

Why have you no comment on his views of all the Semitic peoples and their religions? Too even handed Jonathan?

The following is an exaggeration and has you showing your misunderstanding of western traditions .

'The west, thanks to "progressives", is obsessed with apologising over supposed past injustices. This is a Western prejudice.'

We westerners evaluate our past behaviours and actions. We discuss them and attempt to embark on courses that attempts to ensure we don't repeat the mistakes of the past. Sometimes we apologise. What we don't have repeated over and over events that hurt us or our descendants. It works well for us and yes it is a uniquely western behaviour. You see it as a prejudice. I see it as a tradition, of which every westerner is proud.

We mostly live in peace and don't continually suffer attempted genocides.

Can you say the same for short-sightedness you champion and of your pride in that?

And mate the Turks religion adheres to dark age beliefs. Fortunately thanks to a bloke called Mustafa Kemal, who we Aussies know well, they long ago adopted western secularism.

imajuianutter "We westerners evaluate our past behaviours and actions. We discuss them and attempt to embark on courses that attempts to ensure we don't repeat the mistakes of the past. Sometimes we apologise. What we don't have repeated over and over events that hurt us or our descendants. It works well for us and yes it is a uniquely western behaviour. You see it as a prejudice. I see it as a tradition, of which every westerner is proud."

There's a difference between the reflection on past acts for pragmatic change in the present and the all encompassing guilt that "progressives" attempt to introject into the head of every Westerner.

‘morning Jonathan,

Sometimes the most complex and nuanced issues are best interrogated from “outside in” rather than from an internalized perspective. It then becomes much easier to see who is doing what to whom and who the targets are.

There are many entities that share a common enemy, perhaps for different reasons but the focus is still clear. In their most simplistic group forms there are two, the progressive left in western societies who share a common enemy with Islam, that common target is clearly democracy.

To identify the entities that comprise progressive ideology all we have to do is look at their “targets” then we can name them.

Humanities academia, left political elites, much of our bureaucracies, activist NGO’s, trade unions, identifiable sections of our media and the UN.

Fairfax is aligned with the Guardian, the ABC, chunks of 7, 9 and 10, and web based sites such as New Matilda and the Conversation. How do we know this? Because they evidence the shared ideals of that self referential network, the same targets and a common mantra of socialism.

Lock and load. Human Rights, refugee advocacy, gay rights, discrimination, racism, free speech, news censorship, Israel, AGW alarmism, big government, centralized control, banking and open borders.

Line ‘em up. Anything that smacks of centre right, democracy, industrialization, choices, big coal, big business, banking, fossil fuels and just like Islam, those who do not share the ideology and open fire!

That’s all we need to know really

Where do I sit within your analysis.
I'm definitely not socialist and sit with you on most topics except supporting Israeli vengeance and violence?

‘morning imajulianutter,

You ask <<Where do I sit within your analysis. I'm definitely not socialist and sit with you on most topics except supporting Israeli vengeance and violence?>>

I don’t know where you sit, it’s up to you to decide that. Look at the issues and look at your targets and give it some thought.

It is a great question though so I’ll present my position for your consideration as relative to yours.

I didn’t mention “socialists” in my post, I said “progressives”. There was a time when we talked about Marxists, Communists, Socialists, Fabians, Greens and deep Greens. Many are now more comfortable calling themselves progressives because it sounds “nicer” or more “benign”.

It makes no difference because they all use the same ammunition against the same common targets.

A good start in your journey to understand where you sit on the spectrum would be to follow your thinking on your nominated topic, Israel’s “vengeance and violence”.

Firstly I’d like to cover the issue of “relative to”.

During the period of just one month between July 7 to August 8 2014. There were 235 attacks by Islamic fundamentalists, 2,326 killed, 8,962 injured.

These were perpetrated across the entire arc of Islamic conflict from North and sub-Saharan Africa, ME, Pakistan and Sub continent, Indian and Pacific nations.

These acts of barbaric savagery have been committed against other Islamic sects, other religions, minorities, westerners, ethnic groups, men, women and children.

Whilst I’ve summarized these events I offer the link to the full list. If you are a “progressive” you will not visit this link because it is poison and not from your self referential network.

http://pickeringpost.com/story/dear-mr-marles/3653

Next, “context and relevance”.

In the 1950’s the Muslim Brotherhood based in Egypt began the Islamization of Gaza, building mosques and supplying Imams. By 1987 the MB had formed Hamas to build on their political and military fortunes in the West Bank and Gaza.

Why Islamization you might ask, were the Palestinians not already Islamic? No.

Cont’d

Cont’d

In 1928 the Palestinians sought “Nationhood” status from the Arab nations. This was rejected by the Arabs on the basis that Palestinians were “of Judeo-Christianic origins” and not Arabs.

Next, “Roles and responsibilities”.

Don’t you find it the least bit curious that the Arab nations have twice raised of armies of 600,000 from the entire Arab world (1948 and 1967) to attack Israel and yet they stand aside whilst their own slaughter there own, the West delivers humanitarian aid, sacrifice our military and take the blame?

It may suit the narrative to focus on Israel and neglect the fact that Hamas is a de facto administration in Gaza, dedicated to the destruction of Israel by the same means as the rest of the Islamic fundamentalists are inflicting upon their own.

Elections are due in Gaza in the next six months and we may well see Hamas emerge as a legitimate authority however, in the meantime there needs to be a suspension of the progressive mantra to allow the political space for a solution, and that includes the UN.

The final test is you are invited to read the following and determine if it accurately reflects your conclusion that it is all about Israel’s “vengeance and violence”.

“You are brought up believing in a great many absurdities that you later find impossible to accept. By the time you're able to start thinking for yourself and discarding what you now know full well to be a lie; you have expended a great deal of emotional energy and are unwilling to admit that you have made a mistake.

There are no good guys in this, the slaughter of innocents is appalling and must be stopped across the entire Arab/Islamic world. That said the focus must be on the causes and not the symptoms.

Your rebuttal would be most welcome.