High five Deuc, I consider this one in the bag.

We've established without (legitimate) challenge that:

a) Evolution is the only theory that stands up to rigorous scientific testing;
b) It stands up to that testing extremely well;
c) ID and creationism can only be taken on faith, and thus do not belong in the science classroom; and
d) Creationists aren't as evolved as us.

Have a good weekend everyone!

David BOAZ your slip is showing...

"The simplest solution of course, is for Christians to simply .. set up our own schools, choosing our own curriculum and the secularists can go on their happy way down the cultural 'make it up as u go' moral gurgler."

What could be more 'make it up as you go' than ID? By all means create your own curricula. This secularist would like nothing more than to see self-righteous god-botherers doing the Christian thing. Forgiveness, tolerance, understanding; that sort of thing. I take it science won't feature large in the classroom.

"In line with this, I predict without hesitation, secularism will see increasing rationalization and de-demonizing of 'sex with children' over the coming years, just like what occured with the gay lobby."

Not even a moment's hesitation, David? How prevalent is sex with children in non-religious communities? As opposed to, say, within the established chuch? Or any number of religious sects?

The gay lobby incidentally does not advocate sex with children. The laws in this country are not based on any bible yet come out strongly in favour of punishing such behaviour, and I hardly need a deity to point out it's sick. It's always been a mystery to me why religious folk see secularists as having no moral compass. You and I were both agnostic at birth.

"We are already seeing a re-emergence of the 'worship of Dionysus' in comedy, pornography, and 'fringe' festival content.. even in radical feminism. (this might be a bit deep.. may have to do some searches to 'get' what I'm on about here)"

This is your work David, not anyone else's. The arts scene is full of liberal-mindedness, often with the intent to shock or surprise. This has always been the case - some of the most confronting (read, pornographic) art is ancient.

"When a society disconnects from the Creator, the results are inevitable, not overnight, but... inevitable."

As the saying goes, If God didn't exist man would have to invent one.

During my time at breeding genetic lines in dairy cows we specialised in genetic breeding of cows yielding larger milk quantities and higher solids. As the yields increased the quality of the milk decreased - i.e. low fat and protein solids. So we had to introduce genes from other breeds that yielded higher fats and solids from the same food of grains and hay. Our cows could not roam easily in open grazing because of the damage that occurred to their udders, otherwise resulting in lower yields of milk and mastitis. There was always a need to revert breed to the original wild species to retain muscle and frame strength. Too much line breeding, though it was from diverse bloodlines sources, ultimately affected the frame of the cow and shortened her effective production life from 6 to 8 years; compared with the original species of 10 to 12 years.

In genetic line breeding of a vegetable species like tomatoes we had to reintroduce genes continually from the base stock to retain flavour.

In a sense this breeding was the emphasis upon certain genes from the species to create a certain result, i.e. fruit to ripen simultaneously for machine picking, or smaller for table salads, or more flavour for sandwiches, more flesh less seeds etc.

However all specialty breeding is an emphasis upon certain genes and not the introduction of new genes, but there was always a need to retain contact with the genes of the original wild species. This breeding was done on human intelligence that constantly required modification. A mutating gene ultimately identified a weakness developing, indicating there was strength needed from the original gene stock of the species to retain the virulent life.

The conclusion was that the original species was best adapted to survive in the natural organic environment for which it was designed. It did not always suit specialist human need, but it was stronger because of contact with its original gene creation. Cross breeding of species to humanily introduce a gene is another matter beyond natural selection

Philo has competently demonstrated the superior viability of natural selection over artificial intervention by humans.

Natural selection evolves to suit a broad range of possibilites - far more inclusive than the limitations of breeding to specific requirements as in the case of dairy cows or other breeding by design.

Well done Philo.

Woooooops...... no link -Thanx Bennie for that reminder.

Now, do you want it 'with' or 'without' ? :) (a skidmarx/attack dog verbal onslaught).. I'll take it you want it 'without' :)

First, the link http://www.trueorigin.org/behe02.asp

the link by Yungnluvinit to Rankin was quite interesting.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/Area/isd/rankin.asp
so I'll repeat it here.

BENNIE.. you seem to have a very rigid picture of the 'closed minded Christian' that is guiding your keyboard taps. I see no reason whatever that a Christian would not wish to explore the wonder of creation and how God made it.

GAY LOBBY I think I either mis-expressed myself or you misunderstood, so I'll re-phrase. The trend to rationalize child sex as acceptable (the actual words I saw in a pshych mag were "positive sexual experienc") indeed is not a feature of the broader gay lobby, but it is a feature of Nambla. I intended to show that similar to the way the gay lobby used persuasion and pshycological data to advance its cause, so too is Nambla (and others) ok.. hope that clarifies

THE GOD WE HAD TO INVENT
Yes Ben.. like we have not heard that 5 million times in the last 5 minutes :)... duh.... One problem, man will invent a god of his 'convenience and pleasure' not one who is against his base desires. So that theory falls flat. A survey of the Ancient near eastern 'gods' and Yahweh's relationship with Israel shows this easily.

TRINITY now that ur here.. you need a (neanderthal ?) hug :) yes u do ! Wanna know why ? simple.. you summed up the core issue on the feminist thread in 3 words "Love to all" when love rules between men and women, I believe there would be no 'feminism'. Even IF gals had symbolic head coverings or were modest and quiet in worship :))) P.S. our fellowship has girls leading at times, and no head coverings, but Xena has almost convinced me to revisit that :)

We've established without (legitimate) challenge that:

a) Evolution is the only theory that stands up to rigorous scientific testing;
b) It stands up to that testing extremely well;
c) ID and creationism can only be taken on faith, and thus do not belong in the science classroom; and
d) Creationists aren't as evolved as us.

Posted by spendocrat, Friday, 9 September 2005 3:51:28 PM
___________________________________________________________

Why should secular state teach in government-funded schools particular religion’s issues?

If parents want to this should be arranged on their behalf and expense (maybe, partly covered by the state arguably) with a particular segregations as the SUNDAY TRAYINING.

And if somebody still yet understands my plain messages’ gist it is because of estimating everything from very personal environment where some never heard any accent but own one. Surely, in this case it’s hard to imagine that either non-Catholics or even non-Christians attend government schools especially.