The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Ukraine: can anything save it? > Comments

Ukraine: can anything save it? : Comments

By Peter Coates, published 9/5/2014

Ukraine has no easy choices. It can’t rely on the West, and Russian treatment of Ukraine in living memory has been close to genocidal.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. Page 5
  7. 6
  8. All
Dick,

I tend to take my views from the Guardian.

My example of Syria (and including you in the discussion) was to try, perhaps vainly, tov point out that there are often, perhaps usually, perhaps always, more than two sides to a fight, and that - wonders ! - sometimes, perhaps rarely, the US happens to be on the 'good' side. Just because the US is trying to find ways of opposing the brutal Assad regime, doesn't mean that it is supporting the Islamist reactionaries. Its difficulty is to stop any weapons or equipment getting into the hands of the reactionaries. But I suggest that the last groups that Obama would ever support would be any groups affiliated to al-Qa'ida, or a similar fascist-Islamist group such as ISIS.

I don't know what you mean by Obama's jack-boots in Syria. Actually, most of the jack-boots I've seen lately on TV news have been Russian, I suspect.

One thing intrigues me: how will the pseudo-Left reconcile their desire to support al Qa'ida-type groups against the US, with support for Putin and HIS opposition to Islamism, such as in Chechnya ? And how to square their support for Putin with the European far-Right's support for him, such as le Pen and UKIP ? bunch. I'd stick with the Yanks any day, rather than any of that crap.

Good luck with that :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 11 May 2014 4:13:15 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Loudmouth, yes, there's more involved in Syria...there's 7 countries involved. But remember, Obama's first diplomatic strategy pertaining to news of Assad using chemical weapons, was to announce that military intervention by the US was called for...that's what I'm terming "jackboot-ish". Putin responded by stating the UN should intervene and oversee the dismantling of chemical weapons, which ironically, is what's occurring. Putin made Obama look foolish in that scenario.

But in the larger picture, this conflict has more to do with Assad being a Russian ally, and America wishes to increase its control in the Middle East, thereby diminishing Russia's influence and access to the Middle East. It's been well reported also, that America has supported radical Islamists in this endeavour.

There are no "good guys", there are just the interests of the players involved. I appreciate the tendency to view the actions of our largest ally America, as being the "good guy", but that's an emotive view based upon America's propaganda with its tendency to demonize others, not a more objective view of them acting out of self interest(s).

Same for Ukraine. The US has been found with its hand in the cookie jar, with transcripts of Victoria Nuland reported, talking about supporting separatists there, to undermine the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government of Ukraine. It may have been corrupt, but what government isn't? Again, it's a ploy to expand NATO and American interests, and NOT about "democracy" or altruism, but of diminishing the political power of Russia while eliminating a "buffer zone". I mean, why do you think China reluctantly supports Nth Korea? Because it acts as a buffer between East and West.

Put it this way...if I was America in this game, it's precisely what I'd do too. But if I was Russia, I'd be rather concerned about the predatory behavior of the US. And if I was China, I'd be concerned with America's sudden involvement in territorial disputes with Japan and the Philippines. Again, manoeuvres to limit Chinese expansion.

My personal view, is I don't like being lied to, regardless of who's telling the lies, ally or not.
Posted by Dick Dastardly, Sunday, 11 May 2014 5:43:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yesterday the Donetsk region in eastern Ukraine held an independence Referendum. The self appointed Donetsk electoral commission has produced results already (a miracle?) - 89% Yes-for independence, 10% Against.

The question on the ballot paper, printed in Russian and Ukrainian, asked: "Do you support the act of state self-rule of the Donetsk People's Republic?". Some voters saw a "Yes (for)" vote as endorsement of autonomy within Ukraine, other saw "Yes" as a move to independence and others saw "Yes" as agreeing to absorption by Russia.

So the vote has provided a mandate for the fragmented groups in control of Donetsk to do three opposing things.

see http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-12/ukraine27s-donetsk-region-votes-89pc-for-independence3a-rebels/5445564
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 12 May 2014 12:32:44 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Pete,

But on the Maoist - faintly fascist - principle that power grows out of the barrel of a gun - a nicer way of saying that he who has the most brute force, wins (how could that have ever been, in any way, a progressive slogan ? Amazing.) - the bogus referendum has been just a smoke-screen for Putin to march in and 'restore order'. We all know that. There's nothing remotely opaque about that. Putin has engineered this putsch, it's been tarted up as a referendum, and now he'll send in the shock troops for the next phase.

So where next ? Already the Tsarists are stirring up people around Mariupol. If Ukraine resists the 'referendum' take-over, I'm betting a blitzkrieg will be launched against Kharkiv (Kharkov) and Dniepropetrovsk, surrounding Ukrainian forces, butchering them, then swinging south to Mariupol, then west to Kherson and Odessa, perhaps with bullsh!t 'uprisings' there by the fifth columnists.

Then link up with the rump in Transnietria.

And around the world, the Left will take it up the @rse every step of the way. After all, it's not the US, is it ?

In disgust,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 12 May 2014 4:57:29 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Joe

In Ukraine, a country notorious for inefficiency, I'm amazed that the Referendum Vote, so favourable to Putin, was counted so quickly. A new world record?

And yes - so many in the West are tolerant of Putin's Russian Army - is it their cool black clothes and slim look?

I agree that all will be blamed on the US...not Putin or his Army.

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 12 May 2014 5:36:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Pete,

I guess the bottom line for pseudo-Left is that Tsarist Russia is not the US - ergo, good.

As for a Russian invasion, we'll see, of course. But if I was on the pseudo-Left, I would be a bit uncomfortable being in bed with Zhirinovsky - who is supposed to cuddle up to whom ?

And with le Pen. And with Farage. Nobody mention Molotov and Ribbentrop, please: as Marx might have suggested, history sometimes repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as a ghastly farce.

Is there still a Left - anywhere ?!

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 12 May 2014 7:57:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. Page 5
  7. 6
  8. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy