I don't believe one speck of these protestations of innocence. Given the state of today's GPS devices, when an operational naval ship is asked its position, it should be possible to give two readings - one for the bow and one for the stern.
If the commanders of the ships in breach of Indonesia's sovereign borders didn't know how to use their navigational equipment, or couldn't read a map, they were either incompetent and should be demoted, or they wilfully ignored the maps and should be demoted.
Am official apology was needed and was given. Let's not do it again. If you must, tow the vessels back and let them loose at 13 nautical miles. What's the problem?
As for Indonesia's cry of foul, I think it's worth remembering that during the six years of the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd government, Indonesia, a country with a functioning robust internal control system, allowed thousands of individuals to transit the country and take a boat from southern Java to Australia. By doing this, they effectively undermined the elected government of a near neighbour. NOT the actions of a good neighbour, a friendly neighbour. Proof? Once Abbott indicated the game was over, the boats stopped.

Put your rules to Indonesia! They have their nationals load Indonesian boats with people and try and breach Australia. We just ensure they do not and with safety and compassion return them.
Dare I say that the vast majority of Australia whilst welcoming migrants do not want these lousy rotten people imposing themselves on us. The fact they are all back door merchants with enough bribe money absolutely ensures they could not get here legally. The government is certainly getting cheers from their supporters and even some of their detractors that they know they are doing what we want!
So a few lawyers and "Refugee advocates" miss out on some money, so what!

Binoy

It is not illegal to tow boats back towards Indonesia. It is not illegal to unintentionally broach maritime borders. The screeching we have heard from Indonesia and it's useful idiots does not reflect the realities of ocean navigation, and believe me at 12 nm from the coast you are on the high seas. The coast isn't visible and the actual 12nm limit is not necessarily as clear as you seem to expect.

Besides I'd gladly breech someone's sovereignty if it meant saving lives. Wouldn't you?

The only people deliberately breeching anybody's sovereignty are illegal immigrants on Indonesian boats attempting to illegally enter Australia.

So Australia's policy isn't brazen. It is audacious in the face of Indonesia's refusal to assist Australia ensuring the sovereignty of it's own borders.

Neither is Australia's policy or it's implementation incompetent. It is hugely effective and has benefitted the ungrateful Indonesians just as it has Australia. Not only has there been no illegal immigrants arrive in Australian detention centres for nearly 2 months, but, by all accounts, the numbers of intending illegal immigrants entering Indonesia has hugely reduced.

And by the way there have been no deaths at sea on this government's watch.

Why can't you see the wood for the trees and give some credit for the great humanitarian success of this government, in saving lives, instead of bleating negatively about some, by comparison, very minor slight to our Indonesian neighbours.

Try to praise the good instead of bleating about the bad...for a change.

There are some who have yet to accept the decision of the Australian people last federal election.

The government is doing what was demanded of it by the Australian people.

The smugglers' business model is not working. As for Indonesia, these are vessels operating under the Indonesian flag and with Indonesian skippers and crews. The international rules are plain and the Australian navy is not only doing what is legal but is operating in an exemplary way by intercepting and where necessary towing back or putting people in safe craft to return to from whence they came.

Ultimately it all depends on whether one is on the side of the Australian people or not I suppose. Australia says 'NO' to illegal immigrants and people smugglers.

Isn't it interesting, it is these academics, who have managed to get their hands deep into the taxpayers hip pocket for themselves, are the ones who want to spend our money on so much more useless flotsam.

After we have wasted so much on educating & employing these useless people, they have the hide to try to dictate to us, their employer, how we should think, & spend what little money we have left.

Get a life kid, try working for your living, & do as you are told when being paid by us.

In a slight turn on the old audition advice, Don't tell us, we'll tell you, & your mates.

Indonesia Governments lie, Australian Governments lie, c'mon folks it really is down to who can tell the biggest lie, and we nitwits believe what we are being told., we now find out fifty years later the truth of past events, so may have to wait another fifty years for present day truths, most of us will be dead by then, the younger generation in the future will not care too hoots of past events and sacred waters as of now.

Unfortunately, most of the discussion is taking place in a factual vacuum, not least because the government does not regard it as necessary to actually inform us, their employers, as to exactly what is happening. Have the boats really been stopped from coming? We don't know, for "operational reasons". It is true they are not reaching our coastline but that is not the same thing.

We do know for example, that 88% of those whose claims for refugee status are processed are found to be genuine refugees, yet the government, and many of the above commenters, write as thought they are undeserving flotsam trying to arrive in this land of milk and honey.

We also know that just about everything said about the Indonesian government and its refugee policies is both profoundly ignorant and carries with it more than a hint of racism. How could they do a good job: they don't even speak English!

We also know that modern ships carry state of the art navigation equipment and know within a few square metres exactly where they are at any given moment, that self same equipment letting them know exactly where national maritime boundaries are. To pretend otherwise with weasel words such as "inadvertent" incursions into Indonesia's territorial waters is simply an insult to our intelligence.

Australia's policies in this area are simply a disgrace, and the fact that Nutter and his Tory mates think it is a good thing only shows how low we have sunk.

Cripes I thought Bruce Haigh's article was tripe, this one takes the cake.

Illegals on Indonesian boats regularly and flagrantly breach Australia's maritime integrity; the traitors of the left never complain about that; now, in an exercise succeeding in ending the corrupt illegal boat people industry in Indonesia is castigated by the usual nitwits and moralisers of the left.

If the people concerned by these illegals were genuinely concerned about refugees they would be supporting the government in ending this belligerent form of immigration and drawing attention to the plight of the real refugees rotting in camps around the world who do not have the $1000s for bribing corrupt Indonesians to get to Australia so they can then get on the Australian welfare system.

Asylum seekers are not "illegals", those on OLO who make derogatory comments against Asylum seekers, forget that it was Australia who invaded the sovereign countries of Iraq and Afghanistan; accordingly we must take responsibility for our actions.

All the blabbing here about the Navy not knowing how to navigate are totally wrong. Nobody seems to understand that international boundaries are not shown on navigational charts - you know, the ones used by the Navy ... and customs ... and everyone actually. So whilst ships know exactly where they are (including the bow and stern ... as noted by one commenter) they don't know accurately where the boundary is between the high seas and territorial seas.

This is an imaginary line calculated as 12 miles off another imaginary line called the baseline which is according to a complicated formula. No problem if the coast is straight cliffs, no bays, inlets, offshore reefs or sandbanks etc, with small tidal range. But each of those factors has to be considered as some constitute territory and some alter the baseline but others don't. So a ship can calculate it is 12 miles off the coast, but still be within territorial sea. And that shows why it can be inadvertent and repeated ... until someone notices. It wasn't the Indons who noticed. It was us.

Perhaps we'll soon see Indonesia's territorial sea marked on our charts. And also we look forward to the Indon navy making its presence felt where it should have been all along ... enforcing Indonesian law by preventing vessels departing illegally and fulfilling Indon search and rescue obligations.

Interesting argument by Kipp who apparently is going to leave Australia in disgust any time soon.

The illegals are real refugees because in his opinion Australia invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and therefore to assuage our guilt we should punish ourselves by accepting militant muslims who almost uniformly reject our culture and want to replace it with Sharia.

No. We invaded Iraq to get rid of Saddam, one of the world's worst monsters. No doubt Kipp would be happy if he were still in power and rivalling that Chinese puppet, Kim Jong-un.

And we got rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan, a group which uses children to blow themselves up and routinely executes women.

I can't express my objection to such views strongly enough.

And what about the Iranians? What did we do to them or are they guilt framed real refugees because of some general insult by the West to islam, so we have to have these people who hate our culture here as well?

Australia has always been betrayed by the left; the issue of the boat people is just another way that the left can express their hatred of our society.

Kipp,
What idiotic dribble. The Coalition forces did not invade those countries. They went in to sort out the mess caused by idiots like yourself. They had no intention of ever staying there.

What wonderful informed people we have on OLO "idiots" but when writers use these terms, one does wonder who are the bigger idiots, I really would like to know where the informed get all their information and believe it. Real truth is very hard to find these days, but obviously one seems to be missing these very truthful reports somewhere, please tell me where they are? then one can be enlightened, remember it has to be the truth that you obviously know about like Iraq & Afghanistan.

James you are only a bit right.
'know within a few square metres exactly where they are at any given moment,' this is true. 'that self same equipment letting them know exactly where national maritime boundaries are' this is wrong.

'Nutter and his Tory mates think it is a good thing'

who said I was a tory. I'm not I'm liberal.

and you are typically Nazi.

informed people we have on OLO "idiots" but when writers use these terms
Ojnab,
It appears you have not noticed that the open-minded, open-eyed i.e. sober thinking OLO posters aren't recipients of that term ?

Well, those that have routinely trashed so-called sovereignty, are the Indonesians.
For over a decade Indonesian boats crewed by Indonesians have routinely breached our sovereignty with complete contempt for our laws and our sovereignty.
When we've resorted other alternatives, they simply pulled the plug on these leaking hulks, purchased for a single one way trip!
Rather than allow people to drown at sea, we were obliged to pick them up.
Now however, we've supplied them with lifeboats and returned them to their disembarking point. What do the Indonesians expect, that we allow these people and their Indonesian crews to simply drown?
Those who want to settle in Australia, need to understand that the only way is through the front door supported by bona fide documentation and proper visas!
The Indonesians created this problem for themselves, by acting hand in glove with illegal people traffickers, and creating the very conduit, that has seen over a hundred thousand people now parked in their country.
The recent incursion by Chinese military, into Indonesian waters, should focus the mind of the Indonesians on what really matters and a need to have a friend and ally minding the back door.
If they are naive enough to belie e that the Chinese present no real threat, they need look no further than Tibet, and understand, that they with their population base may well be seen as a major impediment to the future expansion plans of the Chinese, or their plans to annex resource rich lands and or marine assets?
The return airfare from Indonesia, is just a little over two hundred dollars, and people with bona fide documentation and genuine asylum claims, would have little difficulty, getting here on a tourist visa, and then claiming asylum on arrival.
It's only the back door that has been closed, the front door with it's welcome mat is still wide open.
So, we haven't abandoned our duty or commitment under the convention, just the illegal trade, that has cost the lives of over a thousand people.
Rhrosty.

Rhosty,
When you really assess what's going on it' becomes crystal clear that the boat people dilemma is australian made. The agenda driven/created refugees are taking 110% advantage of it. Those pro-boat people traitors in our midst calling themselves Australian should be charged with treason along with the political parties they belong to.

The problem appears to be that they knew where their ship was but they
were uncertain where the Indonesian Coast was.
There are rules about how you define lines across, Peninsulas, Bays etc.
That is where they became unstuck.
These rules apply to warships but not to customs vessels.

So, halduell your comment was rather off in its accuracy.

@ Bazz,
Posted Saturday, 22 February 2014 10:34:52 PM
Not at all. If a government operated vessel, whether a warship or a custom vessel, is towing another vessel back to its country of origin, and if the commanding officers on the towing vessel know full well that this will ruffle some feathers, then it is incumbent on them to familiarise themselves with EXACTLY where the 12 nautical mile border is, and stop short of it.
When Australian Coast Guard ships intercept Indonesian fishing boats within our declared borders, do we allow the errant fishing boats to use ignorance as an excuse. No, we tow the offending fishing boats into harbour and torch them.
Err on the side of caution here. I imagine such will be the practice from now on. And if our commanding officers need to go back to school, then by all means lets send them back to school.
To our government's credit, they spotted the error, admitted it and apologised. Unless something happened of which we are all ignorant, so far no one has died as a result. Nor has anyone new gone into detention. Good.
And the boats, who were tearing Australia apart, have stopped. Also good.

From my comments on this subject at The Guardian Australia:

"Morrison and the commander of Operation Sovereign Borders, Lieutenant General Angus Campbell, admitted in January that Australian naval vessels had “inadvertently” entered Indonesia’s territorial waters on “several” occasions."

Well, if you believe that, here's a riddle for you:

"What do you call the same accident repeated six times?"

Answer: "Deliberate."

Another thing: You have to ask yourself "At what point does incompetence become criminality?" Now, let's all rush to our Law of the Sea texts.

What are australian ships doing more than half-way to Indonesia ? How far out is the australian sea border anyway & if the Navy isn't sure then how the hell can anyone make sense of anything. One can only hope that not all of the Navy ships are crewed by lefties out to emabarrass the Coalition Government.

Hi Indi,

The Australian maritime border is quite different to that of Indo. Our border follows the shoreline of a very large land mass that relatively easy to define.

The Indo shoreline is in fact a collection of hundreds of islands so their 12 mile limit is a nightmare of overlapping 12 mile circles, a bit like the Olympic Rings but much more complex. The overlaps create very odd border “shapes” looking more like giant saw teeth. These also create border shapes looking like egg timers and funnels, a nightmare to navigate.

Of course all our military can pinpoint their own position or that of the enemy to within a few meters, you can do that on your own mobile phone or your cars’ SatNav.

The problem seems to have been matching the ships current GPS coordinates with whatever charts central command were using, I suspect not many border charts of indo ever had any GPS coordinates on them. I’m sure will have included them now?

Our military command should have “mapped” GPS coordinates onto the charts to avoid this situation. It’s sad that the Navy cops a flogging for not knowing where they were, when of course they knew where they were but not in relation to the Indo borders

spindoc,
I ask again what are australian Navy ships doing further north than the half-way line between the two nations ? What is the need ?

Hi Binoy,

Perhaps the next time you feel inclined to accuse Australia of being << calculatingly brazen or breathtakingly incompetent >>. You might wish to consider doing your research as an academic before you type anything so embarrassing.

The only person calculatingly brazen and breathtakingly incompetent on this thread is YOU.

Geodetic Datum of Indonesian Maritime Boundaries:
Status and Problems.

http://www.fig.net/pub/cairo/papers/ts_45/ts45_01_abidin_etal.pdf

“Indonesia has maritime boundaries with 10 countries namely: Australia, Timor Leste, Papua New Guinea (PNG), Palau, Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and India”.

“Many treaties have been ratified concerning these boundaries. Unfortunately, many
coordinates of boundary points mentioned in the treaties are not clear in relation with their geodetic datum”.

“In delimitating its maritime boundaries, based on the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) 1982, Indonesia has the rights to establish boundaries of four maritime zones, namely: Territorial Sea, Contiguous Zone, Economic Exclusive Zone (EEZ) and Continental Shelf.”

Coastal Waters 3km, Territorial Sea 12km, Contiguous zone 24km, Exclusive Economic Zone 200km.

“Geodetic coordinates of a point will depend on its geodetic datum. Same geodetic coordinates but with different geodetic datum will lead to different locations on the Earth surface”.

“Uncertainty in geodetic datum of maritime boundary points will lead to uncertainty of its real location on the sea surface. This will introduce not only technical but also legal implications, both in spatial and non-spatial domains, since it will not only alter the listed coordinates in the treaty, but will also shift the boundary lines that have been agreed by the neighboring countries. There are spatial and non-spatial implications caused by this uncertainty in geodetic datum of Indonesia’s maritime boundaries”.

“The uncertainty in geodetic datum of Indonesia’s maritime boundaries has to be resolved as soon as possible. The discussions, talks and negotiations with the involved countries have to be started and conducted according to the legal procedures usually adopted in maritime boundary delimitation process”.

Oh dear! I take it all back. No wonder the commanders of the Australian ships didn't know where their bows were, let alone their sterns, in relation to where Indonesia thinks it is.
Perhaps we could pay a bush lawyer to accompany each vessel. That way the lawyer and the commander could hang about discussing the finer points of where on the ocean they are while the towed vessel bobs along in their wake.

Hi Indy,

You say << I ask again what are Australian Navy ships doing further north than the half-way line between the two nations ? What is the need ? >>

I’m trying to help but I’m not sure I fully understand your question?

The distance between any territorial maritime borders is just international waters, that’s it. “Half way between” has no relevance.

The international water between the Indo’s and Australia is small. So to have any chance of “policing these” waters, early detection and interception is vital.

Unless a Navy asset is “head on” to the target, the wider the angle to “beam” the greater the distance. Think of it as a triangle, the upright being the head on position. The further off to the beam, the greater the distance you have to travel to “intercept”.

Therefore it makes sense to position assets where they have the best chance to detect and then intercept targets before they breach Australian territorial borders.

I doubt anyone knows what Australian assets are deployed, how many, where they are located in international waters, what their patrol patterns are, what aerial surveillance they have access to or what speed they can make, so I can’t answer your question, “what is the need?.

The above link I sent to Binoy will answer all your questions about what the Indo maritime borders are and where they (think) they are. Please note that the WGS84 analysis highlighting all the Indo maritime border problems was actually written by the Indo’s themselves.

The one thing of which we can be absolutely certain is that the Indo’s don’t have a clue where their borders are and nobody else does either.

So when the ABC, Fairfax and Binoy try to make a case against Australia on this issue, it’s a right load of old cobblers. Unless of course they wish to argue the case with the Indo’s?

spindoc,
So, what you're saying is that there are no international waters between Australia & Indonesia ? If there are then what are australian Navy ships doing in international waters so close to indonesian waters ?
What business would they have to be so far off Australia ?

Hi Indy,

Sorry but you have lost me.

No international waters between Oz and the Indos’? What?

What are Oz ships doing in international waters? No body needs a pass for international waters?

Close to Indo waters? What does “close mean”, it is still international waters.

Don’t know what you are on today Indy, but if it’s a good red, let me know.

Spindoc,
I’m afraid you got me confused now. What is it you don’t get ? International waters yes, Indonesian & Australian waters yes. You say no pass is needed for international waters, agree. What does close mean, it is still international waters, yes.
I’m on about what the dickens are Australian Navy ships doing so close to Indonesia, international waters or not. What business have they to be up there when they’re supposed to be patrolling the Australian sea border ?
Whilst they’re zig-zagging along Java fishing boats loaded with silent invaders are cruising to Australia. At this time things are quiet due to the monsoons but once the season changes it’ll be on for young & old again. My thinking would be for the Australian Navy ships to pick up vessels crossing into Australian sea territory & take them to Manus or wherever, as long as it’s not to the Australian mainland because once they set foot ashore here it’s all over red rover. Don’t go all the way to Indonesia & pick them up there, wait till they cross the line here.

Hi Indy,

You seem to be working on the premise that the OZ Navy should not be patrolling in international waters?

You keep asking << I’m on about what the dickens are Australian Navy ships doing so close to Indonesia, international waters or not. What business have they to be up there when they’re supposed to be patrolling the Australian sea border ? >>

You seem to think that the Navy is supposed to be patrolling “our sea border” and that the Navy has “no business” in international waters or to operate “close” to the Indo maritime border?

If that is your premise then no wonder you are confused because I think non of that is true.

The main Navy tasks are detect, intercept and identify.

The patrol area is from our own coastline right up to the Indo maritime borders. We patrol within our own maritime border and all (any) international waters.

Waingapu to Derby 1,000km, less Indo maritime 12km, patrol area approx. 988km. Or South Cilacap to Christmas Island 470km, less Indo maritime 12km, patrol area 468km.

This defines only the most direct but very large part of the “patrol area”. This is patrolled for the purpose of detection, interception and identification. The Navy may detect and intercept but subsequently “identify” as just a fishing boat. They may detect, intercept and subsequently “identify” as a Suspected Irregular Entry Vessel (SIEV).

So to your question, “ what the dickens are they doing so close to Indo?” They are protecting our borders from incursions by SIEV’s, by early detection, interception and identification.

To your issues that the Navy has “no business” in international waters or to operate “close” to the Indo maritime border? I suggest you may be mistaken but you can correct me if you think I’m wrong.

If you think the Oz Navy is in some way restricted to patrolling only our 12 km << Australian sea border >>, then again I think you are wrong but will stand to be corrected.

If you follow the link to the original document and read the final
paragraph you will see that the Indonesians admit that they don't
really know where Indonesia actually is located.

The rules we are discussing here apply only to warships.
It does not apply to customs vessels as they are on the ordinary ships registry.

by early detection, interception and identification.
spindoc,
What good does that do ? They can't touch them in international waters ? Why spend all that fuel to go way out there when the Australian territory is only a few miles out ?
So what if they see them way out there, intercept & identify them when they haven't done anything wrong yet ? I think it's damn incompetent, wait till they do cross into Australian waters then grab them. A hell of a lot cheaper & safer for the Navy.

Because the Indonesians say they are now your problem.

Bazz,
Exactly ! That's why Australia needs to deal with the situation as it's majority sees fit. Anyone not agreeing should put their money where their mouth is. If some people think everyone arriving on a boat shhould be let in then let them into their yard & home & support them.
Let's have a referendum & be done with it.

Individual you are correct, I am positive the bleeding hearts would be only too happy to have the illegal refugees live with them, of course they wouldn't, a referendum is a good idea, most people we know want them sent back from whence they came and join the correct way of entering Australia legally, they pass many countries on their way here, one wonders what ulterior motive they have in coming here, especially as most are men.