The bible is in deed a book worth reading.
So is Grimm's fairy tales and Harry Potter.
It only gets dangerous when you start to believe its contents.

I seem to be in a strangely agreeable mood today.
I quite agree with Graham -and also with Ponde.
Not at 'Ambit Gambit' though.

"How do you describe someone who pushes the Bible at you, but not necessarily Christianity?"

Someone who, as the CEO of the Bible Society Australia and aware of its (and its antecedents) goals, isn't doing his job properly...

but that seems irrelevant to Graham Young's affirmation of The Great Bible Swindle's supporting the importance, to any informed appreciation of 'western civilisation', of the influential history of The Bible.

Which seems obvious without having to read Greg Clarke's book. Though I may need to to clarify "The Bible's bequest is 257 "brand new words" making Shakespeare ["who... bequeathed 100 new words to us"] what Clarke calls "the silver medallist".

If only because I thought Shakespeare's legacy was over 1700 and The Bible isn't a person.

An interesting claim.

>>"Argument", "excellent", "puberty" and "novel" are amongst these Biblical bequests.<<

Words are also a fascination of mine, so sentences like this will always see me lunging for the OED.

It would appear that the first three get the guernsey from their inclusion in Wycliffe's first translation of the Bible. The OED dates them 1382, and the only other Wycliffe version, John Purvey's revision, was made after Wycliffe's death. (On December 31st 1384. He missed the New Year's Eve fireworks. How galling)

And - as any fule kno - Wycliffe adhered to the Latin Vulgate for his baseline text, so it is hardly surprising that he slipped in the odd Latinism where he couldn't think of an existing English word. So "argumentum" became "argumentis", "excellentem" became "excellent" and "pubertas" became "pubertee".

"Novel" has me and the OED (and the internet, of course) quite puzzled, though. The earliest published use that I could find was 1460. Can anyone help unravel this one? Someone who has read the book in question, perhaps?

Not in KJ version.

You do not have to be a Christian to acknowledge and appreciate the importance of the Bible to Western culture. Unfortunately, those hoping to reduce the influence of Christianity on modern society often wish also to downplay its historical importance. Not all, though. Two prominent atheists – Melvin Bragg and Christopher Hitchens – wrote approvingly on the bible’s contribution to our language and culture on the 400th anniversary of the King James Version in 2011.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Book-Books-Radical-1611-2011/dp/1444705156

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2011/05/hitchens-201105?currentPage=all

I particularly like Hitchens:
‘ The Tyndale/King James translation, even if all its copies were to be burned, would still live on in our language through its transmission by way of Shakespeare and Milton and Bunyan and Coleridge, and also by way of beloved popular idioms such as “fatted calf” and “pearls before swine.” ‘

Very interesting, thanks Graham. I had never viewed the Bible as such a developmental document, and have never actually read it, just appreciated its 'lessons' from early religious education mostly covering readings from the Gospels. That 'early learning' has never left me, and I continue to appreciate its significance to the subsequent formation of my wider 'world-view'.
(Whereas, I remember virtually nothing of 'The Magic Pudding'.)

Credit where due: I am a product of my early and continuing education and my upbringing in a Christian household - and have no regrets or doubts as to the adequacy or effectiveness of the 'life-preparation' afforded.

'Poetry' may be attributed to many early authors, but I wonder if the Bible may represent the origins of the novel - as well as providing great 'theatrical' material and ideas?

>>He also explores its [Christianity's] role in fostering the rise of universities, the development of science..>>

True of the Catholic Church. Less true of Eastern Orthodoxy. Protestant denominations are all over the place on this.

>>He also corrects some naïve views of what the Bible is. While fundamentalist Christians and atheists alike want to view it as the inerrant word of God – one group as a means of supporting it, and the other as a means of tearing it down under its own internal contradictions>>

Agreed with a quibble.

I accept that many Christians understand that parts of the bible cannot be taken literally. But many do and some like this idiot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBy3MbP4WDo

are actually members of the House Science Committee in the US Congress.

So my plea to sensible Christians is to take on the literalists publicly.

>>militant atheists like Richard Dawkins who use quotes from some of the books in the bible to confound modern audiences because they conflict with the values those audiences have been brought up on, which are drawn from other (generally later) books in the Bible.>>

What is fascinating is the way the bible reveals the EVOLUTION of humanity's understanding of morality in the pre-scientific era. This is also something that escapes both literalists ad Dawkins' groupies.

>>And in language context is everything. While words have a meaning of their own, this is always modified and modulated by the words and ideas in which they are wrapped and surrounded.>>

I wonder whether most words do have a meaning that is independent of context. The phrase "you old bastard" may be a complement or an insult depending on context.

>>It strikes me as bizarre that we mandate knowledge of Indigenous beliefs and customs in all subject areas, when these beliefs and customs have virtually no relevance to contemporary Australian life, yet we completely ignore the Bible and Christian beliefs and customs, which have huge relevance.>>

Agreed

Glad you enjoyed studying English lit, Graham. Keep it up, and you may learn that it goes back a lot further than a chap by the name of Chaucer.
The claim that the Bible is the foundation of equality is weakened by the fact of an awful lot of inequality in the Middle Ages, during which it was the top book.
And when you ponder publishing it in the later Middle Ages or early Renaissance, bear in mind that possession of a copy might well have been illegal for a layman.
That said, I support your argument, though we must look at the Geneva Bible if we want the version used by Shakespeare.

"It strikes me as bizarre that we mandate knowledge of Indigenous beliefs and customs in all subject areas, when these beliefs and customs have virtually no relevance to contemporary Australian life, yet we completely ignore the Bible and Christian beliefs and customs, which have huge relevance."

Very true. If only the Green lefties in the media and education departments would take note.

The book appears to be a very interesting read.

A couple of years ago, as a rather silly amusement, I made up my list of the 12 books that were the best/most important/fascinating etc to me. It was hard especially at the margin and throwing some out of the list was really hard.
They are in no order but two that were listed immediately were the KJV version of the Bible and, associated with it, the BCP (Book of Common Prayer). The language in both is so beautiful; they are on the list for that reason.
Whether people like it or not the KJV in particular has influenced the language.

ponde,

"The bible is in deed a book worth reading.
So is Grimm's fairy tales and Harry Potter.
It only gets dangerous when you start to believe its contents."

The Israelis worked out roughly where Moses did his burning bush exhibition and drilled for oil. They found oil.

Then there is the Burning Bush itself, still around today and still capable of burning without being consumed.

See: http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/chiwonlee/plsc211/student%20papers/articles05/fiesel,%20carmen/PLSC%20211%20Web%20Page/burningbush.htm

Some of the Bible seems to be true.

As much as I dislike people pushing any religious notions or god on anyone else, I must say that I did enjoy many of the bible stories myself.

As a child, we had several bibles around the house, and mum bought us our own set of 10 Children's Bible Story books.

I loved reading these, and enjoyed all the stories about the families and how they lived .
I saw them as fictional, but yet historical stories, and read all of them many times over.

In Western society, it is an advantage to know the many bible stories, because of the numerous times that they are referred to in our everyday conversations.

I'm glad I know them, but I wish I had also had more education re other religions and histories in my youth as well.

The main, and perhaps only, "take-home" message for secularists from the bible is the statement from the New Testament's hero, Jesus, who reportedly said "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, etc." [Matthew 22:21]

He clearly was a strong proponent of the separation of the church and state. Wise man.

Thanks for the review. I am going to buy the book.

It is about time The Prime Minister put the fear of God into the banking sector and had them honour their obligations under the Laws of the Commonwealth by providing adequate working capital to the agricultural and business sectors. The banks have had no fear of God, since the abolition of the uniquely Protestant Christian system of government which was abolished after 1952, and a Continental European system substituted for it, by State and Federal Governments. The fear of God, is the belief that when two or more are gathered together in His name, sworn on the Holy Bible to find the truth, there guiding them is the Holy Spirit. The Gospel citation that confirms this statement is Matthew18 Verse 20. In the Authorised King James Version a mistranslation inserted at the behest of King James, is the translation of ecclesia from the Greek as Church, in Matthew 18 Verse 17 when in fact the true translation is a gathering of the people, which means twelve people drawn from the community, in a court of Judicature with a Justice trained as a lawyer, presiding over a jury of 12 sworn on the Holy Bible.

That is why “court” in the Australian Constitution, is not capitalised and “judges” is plural not singular. Jesus Christ stated in Matthew 7 Verse 1 that we should not judge. However the Holy Spirit is entitled to judge and find the truth, and as Gilbert and Sullivan so aptly demonstrated in the Pirates of Penzance, a jury should make the punishment fit the crime, as required in S 268:12 Criminal Code Act 1995( Cth). S 268:10 the anti slavery section, is also infringed when a Judge exercises powers of ownership over any other human being, by ordering without authority from a jury, that a Bank take possession of property. This is why you can put enormous pressure on the banking sector to do the right thing, and supply what is as necessary as rain and sunshine, to the farming and manufacturing sectors, and that is finance. Great article Graham.

With our infinitely superior knowledge. we should remember that not only do we stand on the shoulders of giants but on those of our ancestors as well. We all come from barbarian, 'traditional' societies, and we should be always sympathetic to the innumerable struggles - and innumerable side-tracks - that they have had to deal with in painfully developing better ways of living together, and the more informed knowledge and the more humane societies that we are extraordinarily lucky to live in.

Our societies, our democracy, our knowledge-base, will never be perfect or complete, but most of us would surely wish to make our own small contributions to better worlds for our descendants. Marx says somewhere that all reforms, revolutions, innovations bear the marks of the imperfect societies and environments that they spring from, so imperfection is bound to with us for a while yet.

And yes, our society, our civilization, has been built on the painful lessons portrayed in books such as the Bible, and in the gropings towards better forms of knowledge of the best of Greek and Roman and Indian and Chinese thinkers of the distant past, and of the more recent enquirers through the Renaissance and Reformation and the Enlightenment, and into the present. Any form of 'better society' has to build on all that.

Hopefully we will keep on learning, in political maturity, in science and in the recognition that all our seven billion neighbors are as entitled to relatively free and productive lives as we are, as we take for granted even as some of us - as Wm Trevor demonstrates above - attempt to denigrate it.

Best wishes, neighbour,

Joe

well that clears that up GY=Runner
Is Japan a Christain country? what laws does Japan have that make either way.

I think most free thinkers will atest to religions effect on our culture. But's rarely a positive one. The religious cherry pick their cultural impact raely will you read one confess to the blodd shed and hate that their faith has inspired.

It's only when you step into the light that you notice it. Star wars has had an effect on our culture, I'm sure in you ask a Star trek fanboy that could rattle off a number of culture movements that have been inspired by it. Hell coke is it isn't it? and just what does tSanta look like?

Just a note on christainity I'm sure you all relise most of the themes experinced in Romans new version of the bible, were already familar to Romans, they just spiced it up a little and made it the state religion. Mithraism anyone.....

Some people apparently presume that religion created in the child-hood of Man, or religion for infants and children with its mommy-daddy "creator-God" is sufficient in this time and place!

Meanwhile of course there is this unique Spiritually Informed Understanding of the Bible and of the place of Christian ideology in the "21st century".
http://www.dabase.org/up-1-1.htm
http://www.aboutadidam.org/articles/secret_identity
Yes Christian-ism is an ideology. And although it is dressed up in religious drag,Christian-ism is a power-and-control-seeking which seeks to control all of humankind.

An Understanding based on the most profound 50 year long depth level investigation into the origins of the Bible (and of Christian philosophy,ideology and dogma) that has ever been done on by anyone.

Such an investigation was of course not possible until the mid twentieth century with the world-wide explosion of the urgently necessary scholarship into the truth claims of Christian-ism and the fabrications origins of the Bible. Plus the ready availability of mass market paperbacks, which meant that all of the former relatively secret esoteric Spiritual philosophies of all the major religions could now be purchased by anyone at their local bookstore. And especially with the advent of the internet which now provides instantaneous access to everything about all known religions. Even via the 15 volume Encyclopedia of Religion.
Such an investigation was also necessary because of the now instantaneously inter-connectedness of this now globalized Quantum world in which everyone is now effectively living face-to-face in a very small boat. The implications of which are described here:
http://www.dabase.org/p2anthro.htm
http://www.dabase.org/p3family.htm
A quote from the same Philosopher.

"Monotheistic creationist-religion is an exclusively exoteric institutional power-entity which is intent upon controlling and managing the entire human world.
The "sacred power" that such religion claims it brings into the human world is, it says, the "creator-God" of the universe - whereas in fact, the power that such religion actually exercises (or would everywhere exercise) is that of the humanly-governed plotical, social, economic, cultural, and, altogether, mrely exoteric INSTITUTIONALIZATION of the totality of humankind.

BTW I can't help noting that the right wing of the Liberal party is looking at lot like the US Republicans. As soon as they get into power the liberalism falls away to reveal the religious reformer come to save our souls.

Get out of boardrooms and into our bedrooms.

Malcolm save us.

Some references which address the illusions plus the Spiritual and cultural illiteracy of the common mind in both its secular and religious forms that mis-informs Western man (in particular) in this time and place.
On the origins and development of the all-objectifying Western mind (the male gaze) and the universal scape goat "game" that is now being dramatized all over the planet.
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/Aletheon/there_is_a_way_EDIT.html
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/Aletheon/mirrorandcheckerboard995.html
http://www.cesnur.org/2009/slc_costabile.pdf a long essay
http://www.adidaupclose.org/Art_and_Photography/rebirth_of_sacred_art.html
http://www.dabase.org/Reality_Itself_Is_Not_In_The_Middle.htm section 3 in particular
http://spiralledlight.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/4068

How can you write a book about Jesus 300 yrs after his death and expect even a modicum of accuracy? Religion is all about controlling the masses and constantly feeble minded people become slaves to the few elites at the top,who screw them to the grave.

Be spiritual and believe in yourself and your own abilities.

Arjay, "believe in yourself and your own abilities"? sounds very much like a salesman for a pyramid scheme.

Peng the only Pyramid scheme is that of the Illuminatti and their debt money creation scams of their central private banks.

Note the all seeing eye of the Illuminatti over Sydney Harbour Bridge on New Years Eve.

Arjay,

Sometimes I suspect that, for a laugh, Pericles takes on a paranoid persona and calls himself/herself Arjay. Have they ever been seen in the same room at the same time, I ask ? I rest my case.

You assert that " .... Religion is all about controlling the masses and constantly feeble minded people become slaves ... etc"

Fascinating. Do paranoid people commonly assume that all of the world is divided into three populations: themselves, the elites and the sheeple, the masses, puppets, 'feeble-minded people' ? That the elite are so all-powerful that they can easily, with a flick of the wrist, manipulate the feeble-minded billions ? But that they alone, the paranoids, know better, they alone can see through the illusory smoke-screens laid down by the elites, and if only the dumb masses would listen.

Bertrand Russell noted that idealists crave power, something like that, and that by implication, they themselves are easy marks for authoritarian ideologies.

You know it makes sense :)

Joe

Arjay,

Is the Bible about Jesus?

Gee! I thought that it was mainly about all of them old Jewish blokes and that it was written well BC.

Loudmouth new statistics reveal that 87 of the richest people on this planet have more money than the poorest 3500 million, which is more than half the pop of the planet.

Now what influence would they exert over our Govts ?

What is emerging is just how many thinking people know very little about the Holy Bible. I have an Authorised King James Version and an unauthorised one. The words in both are the same. One is published in the US and the other by Cambridge University Press. The only difference is the Royal authorisation in the one printed by Her Majesty;s Command. The Seal of Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second is printed in the authorised version.

The older versions of the Holy Bible have black stars besides certain verses in the Old Testament showing where it refers to the coming of Jesus Christ, the first of which is in Genesis, where the Ishmaelite line that established Islam is mentioned, but a special covenant is established with the then unborn Isaac. Abraham had tired of waiting for his wife Sarah to have an heir, and taken a concubine, to whom Ishmael was born. God told him he would have another son, in wedlock, and Abraham asked Almighty God to care for Ishmael after his wife expelled both Hagar and her son from Abraham's camp. Hagar was a slave girl, probably from Africa, and probably not white. Jesus Christ was a direct descendant of Abraham and Sarah. This lineage is documented in Matthew 1 Verses 1-22.

The Parliament of the Commonwealth starts each session with the Lord's Prayer from the Holy Bible. Both Houses do this, and have passed some very important legislation under Divine Guidance. One of these is the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights almost universally denied by all Judges and Magistrates in Australia. It is actually the principles of the New Testament expressed as Statute Law. One Political Party proposed and voted to abolish prayers. Their then eight members voted to abolish Prayers and none of them is still a member. The Greens are proposing this at the moment. Lets see if any of them are there in six years time. Almighty God gave us the Holy Bible to guide us. A person is not truly educated until he or she knows its contents.

Curses!

>>Sometimes I suspect that, for a laugh, Pericles takes on a paranoid persona and calls himself/herself Arjay. Have they ever been seen in the same room at the same time, I ask ? I rest my case.<<

The jig is up!

How very Ecclesiastes.

"The jig is up!"

Solomon knew there was a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time for Gettin' jiggy wit it.

What many commenters are straying from is the fact that Graham wrote this article as a review of the work of another author, not as a discussion about the Bible's truth or otherwise.
He is outlining Clarke's claims that this is a fine authoritative textbook for creative English writing style.
This greatest work of fiction ever produced was the basis for the emergence of modern society whose mores are shaped by it.
However, it is important to understand that many religious writings exist which revolve around the basic tenets of behaviour, thought and attitude which are regarded as desirable by many of the world's societies.

As Graham points out,"Clarke shows how the Bible is so interwoven into our culture that without it you can't understand much serious classical literature.
And in language context is everything. While words have a meaning of their own, this is always modified and modulated by the words and ideas in which they are wrapped and surrounded."

It is the use of language which is admired, not the rationale behind the writings which were penned hundreds of years after the death of the alleged Christ.
The writer confirms that "Clarke's central message is that you don't have to be a Christian for the bible to matter, it is a matter of literacy, not religion."

Beautiful descriptive writing exists in many works, including our own J.L. Cuthbertson's 'Australian Sunrise' in which he refers to "the lustrous purple blackness of the soft Australian night....", touching words from an insired heart, surely.

According to the Catholic Encyclopaedia,
"....The New Testament was not written all at once. The books that compose it appeared one after another in the space of fifty years, i.e. in the second half of the first century. Written in different and distant countries and addressed to particular Churches,...."

See: http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=8427

Yes Ponder, context is everything.
Graham is of course a Christian - he once accused me of being christophobic (whatever that is!) for my relentless criticism of Christian-ISM.
The title of Graham's review is the Bible for atheists and secularists.

Graham, the author of the book being reviewed (Clarke), and almost all Christians especially those that subscribe to and promote exoteric Christianity, like to pretend that because they subscribe to and prattle on about the Christian "creator"-God, the Bible and "Jesus" that they are committed to a religious world-view, as distinct from the secular world-view that informs or patterns our culture altogether.
They even erroneously pretend that it is superior to the secular world-view, and that it thus offers a way, indeed the ONLY way, to counter and even change the now dominant secular paradigm.

Such a presumption is of course a delusion, a conceit.

Meanwhile this essay describes how we are all trapped in the doubt-mind of the now world dominant reductionist world-view (or paradigm) of scientism/secularism. This includes ALL of the usual academic and/or "theological" advocates of conventional exoteric religiosity.
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/nirvanasara/chapter1.html

After reading this article I bought Clarke's book and have since read it.

Like Graham, I highly recommend it.