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The Forum > Article Comments > The terminal decline of Christianity in New Zealand > Comments

The terminal decline of Christianity in New Zealand : Comments

By Max Wallace, published 8/1/2014

The New Zealand Catholic noted that there was 'a stunning rise' in the number of people declaring 'no religion', a total of 1.635 million citizens out of a total population of 4.24 million.

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"Just why all taxpayers should continue to subsidise Christianity's failing mission in New Zealand (and by extension, Australia) through tax exemptions and grants is a question that is now thrown into relief."

Yes, indeed, secular states have no business supporting religion, Churches are simply private enterprises and should be treated like any other business.
The bad news is, that, as the threat of Christian theocracy recedes, liberal democracy is under increasing pressure from Islamisation.
Posted by mac, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 8:41:59 AM
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Max, you seem to take joy from figures. Be wary, even when figures display a healthy bank balance they come up short in providing a source and ongoing foundation of joy of spirit, peace of mind and warmth of heart.

However, are they really that good? We are experiencing a social phenomenon where a mimetic desire in the social sphere is to be "free" - free to think, free to act, free to believe whatever I want to believe in, free to desire whatever the advertising industry throw at me. Whilst the pursuit of freedom is a universal good, interestingly it is exploited by the libertarian mentality of the old Left and Right to their own ends. The Left (if it feels good do it )and the Right, who are always keen to exploit commercially new frontiers of human "activity". The effect of this is working through our system and manifests in detachment from an understanding, or sense, of the greater good and in attachment to good feelings, that lack even a desire for understanding, about matters of the world and the spiritual realm.

The western liberal democracies rose from a Europe that was inspired, at its foundations, by the Christian faith that contained the call to love and service, and in that, carried the immutable and ever present hope for better things. What a gift for people whose physical existence is so harsh and miserable, and more so without the opportunity and means to change it.

Meanwhile, the Secularisation Thesis has remained as a point of discussion rather than a pointer of reality.

I cannot deny you your joy of numbers, but do remember, you and your fellow travelers are working against 2000 years of history with progression, regression, correction and more progression of Church with Her people. The promise to Abraham, and the Great Commission of Jesus have been fulfilled in terms of physical reach and the establishment of social foundations. It is our task to bring it to fulfillment in the company of the Risen Lord as opposed to ever failing social theory.

Cheers
Michael Byrne
Posted by boxgum, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:00:33 AM
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' It is not in the public interest for New Zealand to subsidise Christianity's (and other religions') failing private projects. '

what a joker Max is. The secular education system is so failed that even huge numbers of unbelieving parents want their kids in private school. By paying fees they are indirectly helping all those sponging on the public system. Despite all the lies, the Government in Australia gives far less per student in the private system than the public zoo. Max claims belong to same ' Rationalist' cult however is silent about the billions wasted on the gw religion. I think these jokers also claim some ' sort ' of rationalism. If Max really believes that the church is going away he is sadly deceived. MAybe that is just what he is hoping. People just are not dumb enough to believe that the great design of this planet come from nothing. Only desperate scientist in need of more public money need to carry on that myth.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:07:13 AM
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While the facts are in themselves indisputable, I find much of the triumphalism in this article mildly offensive.

Religion is fundamentally a lifestyle choice, which rationally therefore should not be subsidized by the State through tax breaks - I have absolutely no quarrel with that. But the fact remains that even these statistics show that more than 60% of the population is still prepared to declare their allegiance to a supreme being, which indicates that there is still a need for society as a whole to recognize their impact.

Removing tax favouritism from religious entities, simply because they are religious entities, should not in any way impact the piety of their followers, which is an entirely emotional, rather than financial response. Their charitable works would not be impacted in any way, which is entirely as it should be.

So, how should we as a society respond to the decline in religious belief? In my view, such observations as these are unhelpful:

"...[NZCN's] agenda is in tatters"

But that is their problem, surely? What's with the crowing?

Taking aim at people's beliefs on the basis that you personally consider them irrational is distinctly counterproductive. The steady decline in religious observance does not need any help from militant atheism. But a rational and consistent approach to the use of public money in the furtherance of religion does not require anything more than a rational and consistent approach to the use of public money. Full stop.

Attacking the beliefs themselves puts you in the same category as the religious evangelists, which takes the argument into entirely unnecessary dead-ends.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:13:24 AM
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Boxgum - you should at least get your facts correct. What is now called the "official" institutional church only came into existence 1700 years ago when the then multi-various early Christian movement was coopted by the Roman state and thus became a key and even dominant player in the Western drive to gain total power and control over everyone and everything.

Plus there was no "great commission". NO one who was alive during the lifetime of the living-breathing-feeling entirely JEWISH Spiritual Master Saint Jesus of Galilee ever heard Jesus say these words. Or that matter any of the words attributed to him in the "New" Testament. And NO one heard Jesus speak after his brutal murder - such was impossible!
Saint Jesus of Galilee was always and only a Jew, he was never ever in any sense a Christian, nor did he found the religion about him aka Christian-ISM as a power-and-control-seeking ideology. On the contary it was a bit of institutional propaganda created by the church "fathers" to justify their expansionist essentially power-and-control political motives. See for instance: http://www.dabase.org/up-5-1.htm

Meanwhile this essay provides a unique summation of the situation re the declining and now baneful lingering influence of institutional Christian-ISM, the decline of Christian-ism, and why the superior seemingly more "realistic" ideology of scientific materialism has inevitably replaced it.
http://www.dabase.org/up-1-1.htm
This essay describes how the usual dreadfully sane Christian religionist has been totally propagandized by the now world dominant dominant ideology of scientific materialism, even while continuing to mumble on about their mommy-daddy "creator"-God, the Bible and the long ago dead now completely mythological "Jesus".
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/nirvanasara/chapter1.html
Posted by Daffy Duck, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:25:44 AM
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Q.E.D.

>>Attacking the beliefs themselves puts you in the same category as the religious evangelists, which takes the argument into entirely unnecessary dead-ends.<<

Thanks Daffy for proving my point, most effectively.

>>Saint Jesus of Galilee was always and only a Jew, he was never ever in any sense a Christian, nor did he found the religion about him aka Christian-ISM as a power-and-control-seeking ideology.<<

Now, can we get back on topic?

Somehow, I doubt it very much.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 8 January 2014 10:48:27 AM
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